Fully bonded diamond:

[mthom]

I agree that this was an old thread. I was happened upon it in a google search and was interested as I''ve been a DCI customer. After reading the discussion on "bonded" diamonds, I just found it very interesting that everyone dismisses the policy as bunk, when Stan is correct, that it''s simply a well thought out return policy that makes customers like my feel good about our purchase. I know that, without a doubt, Fred would give me the full market value for my stone to trade up or down, or I could get a full refund at anytime for the life of my stone (or DCI ... and judging by their success, that would be my lifetime too).

I just find it odd that others mock the policy, but don''t offer anything as good or better.

I''ve heard others write that they were scared by Fred''s book, but my reaction was not one of fear, but one of preparedness. The book taught me that I need to be aware that opportunities exist to defraud the customer, that I need to know my diamond, and that I if a jeweler is relunctant to buy back or trade a stone at a minimum of the original price, I should ask myself "why wouldn''t they." It''s as simple as that ... if a jeweler gives me a good stone at a good price and diamonds have appreciated at a relatively steady rate ... what''s the risk to the jeweler. It''s possible it''s just not their business practive, or maybe they know something I don''t know about the stone (e.g. it''s a treated stone, poor cut, poor price ...)

Bill - the deposit is not part of the bonded process. Fred allows a few ways to buy stones. You can buy from what he''s got in his inventory, or you can give him your specs and give him time to find (or potentially cut, I suppose) a stone. If you have the time to give him, he normally gives you a stone a grade higher in a few areas and larger than your specs, for your agreed price. Of course, if you don''t like it, you don''t have to take that particular stone. Both my friend and I had good success with this (and both of us had time to let Fred search).

I''ll be glad to post the specs of my wife''s stone ... and maybe a picture. Like I said, the brilliance is amazing to my eye.

 

[denverappraiser]

mthom,

I"m pleased to hear that you''re a happy customer and that you will step into the lions den in his defense. I agree that his bonding offer is an interesting program and I''m anxious to understand it better. I have a few questions. The trade in, trade down, trade up program at market level is one that particularly attracts my attention. ''Market level'' is not a clearly defined term and different people use it quite differently. In the DCI case, does this mean that he will buy back stones at his then current selling prices? Is the offer the same whether you want trade up or trade down? The rules seem to be different if you want a cash refund and a trade down is, in effect, be a partial cash refund. Do you have any idea how this works?

Is it correct that 2%/year is the fee to maintain membership in the program?

When you enter into this contract with him, is there some sort of document that explains it?

Knowing whether other dealers offer a better program requires fully understanding each offer. Since this is primarily outside a discussion of the gemological properties of the stones, it''s not really discussed all that much here and it''s an important part of the shopping experience. I think the value of this program is a question that many people would be anxious to consider and your assistance will be very helpful.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[mthom]

I agree Neil, there''s not a lot of discussion here on different return policies outside the normal 30-day return.

Here''s how my "bond" works with DCI. I put "bond" in quotes because, like others have said, it''s really a warranty / return policy. Keep in mind that Fred''s policy might be different now ... my purchase was in 2003.

I do not have to pay a 2% annual fee. The only requirement on my policy is an annual checkup / cleaning. Although the document does state that the "Appreciation and Kept" warranties continue in effect if I don''t do the annual checkups.

Here''s the way the document describes the bond: "Breakage - For the life of the diamond, the diamond is guaranteed against chips, nicks or breakage. Liquidity - Your new diamond has a 100% lifetime cash liquidation value. Appreciation - The diamond''s current market value can be used towards a trade-in. Annual appreciation has averaged 6.25%. Crash - Your diamond''s value is protected against any diamond market crash. Kept - Your diamond is guaranteed to be kept natural, free from laser drilling, fracture filling, coating or heat treatment."

"Any redemptions must include original bonding certificate, appraisal, sales receipt and merchandise."

And that''s the extent of it. I read the specific language about the trade-up or trade-down on his new website "fullybondeddiamonds", but that''s also how he explained it to me verbally.

Basically, I feel safe because if I ever find out for any reason that my diamond is not worth what I think it is, or I just don''t like it, I can get my money back ... forever. Of course, for cash you get 100% of your original purchase, for trades you get the appreciation too.

Bill - here are the specs of the diamond I have:

Round
0.91 carats
VS-1
H(2)
Table% = 58%
Crown = 34.5 deg
Pavillion = 40.75 deg
Polish and Symmetry = Good

 

[mthom]

By the way Neil ... I don''t really think I''m stepping into the lion''s den (with a few exceptions, as always) because I know most of the jewelers here (and elsewhere) are very good and it''s probably especially hard to sell over the internet for a product like this. But we all know that there are people out there that take advantage of consumers for almost all industries, and the advice that I took from Fred is just, be aware. I''ve seen several cases on his website where folks will write in about a diamond from another jeweler and he''ll say "Go for it ... that''s a great diamond at a good price".

I guess what I can''t figure out is how someone is going to ever get screwed at DCI when you can always get your money back. Are there stories out there where DCI hasn''t made the customer right, or given a full refund?

One of these days, we may test out the trade up policy ... and I''ll let you know how it goes.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/30/2006 7:46:53 PM
Author: mthom


Bill - the deposit is not part of the bonded process. Fred allows a few ways to buy stones. You can buy from what he''s got in his inventory, or you can give him your specs and give him time to find (or potentially cut, I suppose) a stone. If you have the time to give him, he normally gives you a stone a grade higher in a few areas and larger than your specs, for your agreed price. Of course, if you don''t like it, you don''t have to take that particular stone. Both my friend and I had good success with this (and both of us had time to let Fred search).

I''ll be glad to post the specs of my wife''s stone ... and maybe a picture. Like I said, the brilliance is amazing to my eye.

mthom
how can he do this and stay in business

unless his price is way too high to begin with. does it come with a lab report?

 

[Capitol Bill]

Date: 1/30/2006 11:02:29 PM
Author: mthom

Bill - here are the specs of the diamond I have:

Round
0.91 carats
VS-1
H(2)
Table% = 58%
Crown = 34.5 deg
Pavillion = 40.75 deg
Polish and Symmetry = Good

mthon,
Thanks for posting the info. I''m guessing the stone was accompanied by a GIA report? Just curious as to the depth & girdle measurements. Thanks again.
Bill

 

[mthom]

Well, I dug the hole, so I may as well lay in it. I actually didn''t get a lab report on the stone. I didn''t insist on it mainly for two reasons, I wasn''t buying the diamond as an investment, but as an engagement ring, and I wasn''t worried considered the return policy. Of course, if I knew I only had 30 days to return it, I would have definitely gotten a report done within 30 days if it didn''t come with it.

My wife and I were going to get a report run, because I am curious on all the measurements and light readings ... but in the end we could see a marked difference in the brilliance of this stone versus every GIA certified stone we looked at in the stores.

I''ll still probably do it one of these days ... but only if I can pry it from my wife''s finger.

If I trade up for a shy 2 one of these days ... I''ll get a lab report. But surely I would notice some light leakage in the stone if something was off ... I mean I look at most stones out there and can see it on most.

 

[mthom]

As you can see, I''m not a professional photographer

But it''ll do given it''s night, one lamp and not a decent macro lens.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/31/2006 12:02:49 AM
Author: mthom
Well, I dug the hole, so I may as well lay in it. I actually didn''t get a lab report on the stone. I didn''t insist on it mainly for two reasons, I wasn''t buying the diamond as an investment, but as an engagement ring, and I wasn''t worried considered the return policy. Of course, if I knew I only had 30 days to return it, I would have definitely gotten a report done within 30 days if it didn''t come with it.

and let me throw dirt on top of ya.

just as i thought,no lab report.

what do mean 30 days ?

what happen to the 100% life time cash buy back.

 

[mthom]

I think you misread what I was saying ... IF I only had 30 days to return (like a lot of the jewelers I''ve seen, especially online) I would have insisted on a certificate. With DCI and Fred, I don''t have to worry, I can return for 100% cash refund for life, or get it''s annual appreciation if I stick with them for my trade.

I just really didn''t feel the urgent need to get a certificate when I have that kind of warranty ... no need to CYA on my part.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/30/2006 11:02:29 PM
Author: mthom

Bill - here are the specs of the diamond I have:

Round
0.91 carats
VS-1
H(2)
Table% = 58%
Crown = 34.5 deg
Pavillion = 40.75 deg
Polish and Symmetry = Good

There is one born every minute, and I am afraid you are one.

40.75 degrees is quoted because that is an iconic number from Tolkowsky''s research.

There is no way Fred can measure and quote to that accuracy.
You have been sucked in my friend.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

And from the photo it looks like a fish eye

 

[mthom]

It was actually measured to the nearest 1/4 degree ... I just listed it as a decimal ... no ones saying he measured to the nearest 0.01 deg

 

[mthom]

And please, just tell me once again how I''ve been suckered into a lifetime warranty cash back deal [$$)]

 

[mthom]

As far as the fish eye ... I think your just seeing the reflection off the table in the pic ... or are you seeing something else?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/31/2006 2:43:52 AM
Author: mthom
And please, just tell me once again how I''ve been suckered into a lifetime warranty cash back deal [$$)]

tell him you want cash back and hear what he has to say.

 

[mthom]

Don''t see how that would be a problem, seeing that I already have that agreement in writing signed by him. Pretty solid contract if you ask me.

 

[Lorelei]

So if I am understanding this right, anytime you decide you don''t want this diamond even years from now you can go to Fred and ask for a refund and get your money back?

 

[mthom]

That''s right. In case you want to see the actual document ...

 

[mthom]

You''d also think that if Fred or DCI were shady, someone ... at least one person ... would have filed a Better Business Bureau complaint in the last 3 YEARS. No complaints filed. Check it for yourself.

Bottom line is, it''s hard to swallow the trash talking here, when it''s got nothing to back it up.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/31/2006 3:57:02 AM
Author: mthom
You'd also think that if Fred or DCI were shady, someone ... at least one person ... would have filed a Better Business Bureau complaint in the last 3 YEARS. No complaints filed. Check it for yourself.

Bottom line is, it's hard to swallow the trash talking here, when it's got nothing to back it up.

Thank you for posting the document but wait a minute.... no one is talking trash here, I asked a simple question with no hidden meaning as I wanted to learn about this cash refund offer - if it is true then it is indeed a good deal as no other vendors I know of offer this. Please don't accuse me or my fellow posters, many of whom are experts and professionals in the diamond industry of " talking trash" when you have only been here for a couple of days, opinions here should be expressed respectfully please.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Dear Mthom,

I am someone of substance in the area of diamond cut.
I will wager you $100 plus costs.

We arange shipping to one of a few independant appraisers for removal of your stone for proportion measurement and then resetting.

If your stone is the proportions quoted then you pay me $100, and pay the appraiser.
If I am wrong by more than .2 degrees (GIA''s stated tolerance for accuracy) on the pavilion angle - then I pay you $100 and all costs.

 

[Lorelei]

Also I would like to know how this works if anyone can explain this please. With the Bonded Diamonds agreement, the diamond is apparently covered against breakage, chips, nicks etc indefinitely. But I have also heard that only one " bust" is allowed per customer, so once you have used your " bust" and the diamond has been replaced, does the lifetime guarantee apply to the new diamond too or if you break or damage this one you are out of luck? I know the likelihood of this happening is slim but was curious as to what would happen should lightening strike twice.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It amazes me that saying is so common.

Lightining is far more likely to strike in the same place

 

[Lorelei]

Very true Garry

 

[perry]

mthom

I am not going to say that you have up front a bad deal. I am going to say that I am suspicious.

As stated by others the "numbers" you have been quoted are not real numbers from a real cert.

Also, the majority of diamonds of your size are certified by the wholesaler prior to sale to jewelers, and any great looking diamond of your size is almost always certified because certs add value. Thus, it is likely that Fred had a cert available (even if it was only a "mini" cert). Why wouldn''t he provide you with it?

Now a conventional cert from 2003 has no indication of light performance of a diamond - it just provides basic information. Thus, you are correct that there are pleanty of poor light return diamonds out there that have certs.

What surprises me is your ability to see it. Most jewelry stores lighting that hides this issue. With "deceptive" lighthing even poor light return diamonds sparkle. Normally it takes an experienced professional in order to see these differences in most jewelry store lighting. I can''t normally see it, except for the worst cases, and I depend on an Ideal Scope to sort diamonds in a jewelry store (I will admit that my experise is limited and I am not a professional jeweler - but I have probably looked at more diamonds - critically trying to descern l;ight performance- than 99%+ of the population). I also feels that it takes an someone with a fair amount of experience to be able to see such issues in general in the real world (outside of jewelry stores) as most people do not know what diamonds can look like.

There are also different levels of "sparkle". I accept that your diamond may well look better than many out there. But what are you comparing it too. The question I have is does it actually look "really great" - or would it look dull compared to the "super premium" cuts that are the main focus of many here on Pricescope. I do not know what the answer is on that - it is just a question.

Another observation: Along with your claim to be able to see poorly cut diamonds - what really strikes me reading your post here is that you seem to be much more knowlegable than the ordianry consumer who post here. Statements like "As far as the fish eye ... I think your just seeing the reflection off the table in the pic ... or are you seeing something else?" and "It was actually measured to the nearest 1/4 degree ... I just listed it as a decimal ... no ones saying he measured to the nearest 0.01 deg"

Combined with your statement on lighting of "But surely I would notice some light leakage in the stone if something was off ... I mean I look at most stones out there and can see it on most."


How would an average consumer who purchased a dimaond in 2003 know about fisheye and be able to counter about possible reflections and other issues, or know how accurate the measurements actually were (especially without a cert); and be able to talk about light return like that. Here is something from the first paragraph of your first post here on Pricescope.


"At first, I don''t understand why some posters are so concerned with disparaging DCI and Fred Cuellar. But the only conclusion I can come to is that he hurts their business and want to "fight back". And then I think the ones who fight the hardest may be the ones that may have had the most to lose as more customers read his books and follow his advice. Maybe some disagree with his cut recommendations or think they are too stringent. Maybe some think that his "bonded" diamonds are a joke, but I certainly don''t see others offering the level of customer protection that he does with his "bonded" return policy."

Right up front you are discussing how stringent cut recomendations are and business stratagy & motivations.

Your entire presentation from your first post has indicated to me that you seem to be highly educated on a variety of issues related to diamonds and business.


Thus I must admit that I have another suspicion: Are you a very eduated consumer who just appeared on this forum (with no other introduction) and feels that Fred and DCI was poorly represented by this old thread; or are you a shill for Fred and DCI. Again - it is just a question.

Perry

 

[denverappraiser]

Mthom,

The dealers aren't the lions.

Thanks for being so forthcoming with your answers. Also thank you for posting the document. It’s all very helpful. I’m still not understanding what ‘market value’ means and how this value is to be determined. It’s kind of important. In most circumstances, this term describes the expected price that you could get for it in a particular marketplace. The selection of the marketplace therefore becomes terribly important. For example, if it means that he’ll match what a neighborhood pawn shop would offer then it’s not much of a deal to write home about and this would still comply with the terms of the contract that you posted. Is this term defined anywhere?

Limited warranties against breakage aren’t especially unusual and most of the major chain stores offer them, notably Helzberg, Shane, and Zale. As mentioned above, for customers who buy insurance, which is most, they have better coverage elsewhere anyway. 100% cash refund forever isn’t even all that great for the reasons I described in the above post but I agree that this is a nice offer and I’m surprised more dealers don’t make it. Guaranteeing that it will continue to be natural is no big deal and the ‘market crash’ guarantee is really just a variation of the appreciation guarantee and revolves around this same definition of market value.

I notice in looking over his website that he claims that 5% of the jewelers are participants in this program. That’s a lot. Are you aware of more than one?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Capitol Bill]

mthom,
I really appreciate your participation in this forum. You''re helping to satisfy the curiousity of many folks who want to know the type of goods FC sells and how he stands behind them. I would like to discuss some things further with you, but that will have to wait until I have more time tonight. Until then, I hope you wouldn''t mind answering the following questions for my own curiousity:
Did you happen to read FC''s book prior to your purchase?
Since your diamond is apparently "insured" by FC, did you bother to have the diamond insured by your regular insurance co?
Have you checked the PriceScope diamond search engine to compare the price you paid for your diamond with the prices of similar stones?
Thanks. I''ll check back later tonight.
Regards,
Bill

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/31/2006 5:13:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Dear Mthom,

I am someone of substance in the area of diamond cut.
I will wager you $100 plus costs.

We arange shipping to one of a few independant appraisers for removal of your stone for proportion measurement and then resetting.

If your stone is the proportions quoted then you pay me $100, and pay the appraiser.
If I am wrong by more than .2 degrees (GIA''s stated tolerance for accuracy) on the pavilion angle - then I pay you $100

mthom

me too...i''ll throw in my $100 ( in USD ),if an independant appraiser agrees with the grade and the proportions. i''am not a cheap AUZ like Garry

$100 AU$ ....LOL

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/31/2006 4:43:59 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 1/31/2006 3:57:02 AM
Author: mthom
You'd also think that if Fred or DCI were shady, someone ... at least one person ... would have filed a Better Business Bureau complaint in the last 3 YEARS. No complaints filed. Check it for yourself.

Bottom line is, it's hard to swallow the trash talking here, when it's got nothing to back it up.

Thank you for posting the document but wait a minute.... no one is talking trash here, I asked a simple question with no hidden meaning as I wanted to learn about this cash refund offer - if it is true then it is indeed a good deal as no other vendors I know of offer this. Please don't accuse me or my fellow posters, many of whom are experts and professionals in the diamond industry of ' talking trash' when you have only been here for a couple of days, opinions here should be expressed respectfully please.

hey Lorelei

i always wanted to ask you...do you talk trash with a British accent?

i love girls that talk with a British accent

so cute.