GIA EX: Let the buyer beware...

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/7/2006 2:16:10 PM
Author: kenny

Today''s AGS stones are cut to higher standards than today''s GIA stones.

False in some cases
I can point out some gia graded diamonds that are better cut than most ags0 AGS graded diamonds.
Dont confuse the paper with the diamond.
Dont make blanket statements like that please it does not serve anyone.
Is the average AGS graded diamond better cut then the average GIA graded diamond? Likely yes.
But remember that AGS allows them to downgrade the cert to one without cut information if they dont like the score so there is nothing stopping someone from using AGS certs on poor cut goods.

To be honest I pretty much ignore both labs cut grading and apply my own which is much stricter than either.
Some/Most of the pricescope prosumers and vendors do the same.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/7/2006 2:53:04 PM
Author: diamonddawn
Kenny, I'm going with the jeweler I got a good feeling about, rather than the one who I feel was trying to fool me. I'm sure there are AGS advocates who are nice believable people, and had I encountered one, I might be making the opposite decision.


Your sarcasm just makes me more comfortable with my decision. I'm sure that there are AGS advocates who are not patonizing and pompous, but I haven't found them, either here or at the store I shopped at.


Thanks again Neil for your help. Your answer was a breadth of fresh air

I havent had time the last couple days to post as much as I wanted.
Go with the diamond that speaks to your heart from a vendor your comfortable with.
Be it gia or ags graded.
Just do so in an educated manner because there are some less than honest vendors out there but there are also some awesome ones both local and online.

 

[belle]

Date: 3/7/2006 1:45:41 PM
Author: diamonddawn


Thank you Neil for your great direct answers to my questions. It seems like all the other experts here were more interested in grinding their own axes, so I was starting to wonder whether it was possible to actually get some help.

diamonddawn,
neil is great no doubt, but i have to wonder if you even read the first post in this thread? brian put forth information about gia with great care and factual information. there are people here trying to help you. they may not all take the same approach, but the message is the same.

Date: 3/7/2006 1:45:41 PM
Author: diamonddawn



I guess I'm trying to figure out whether AGS 'excellent' diamonds are actually better than GIA
diamonds or just theotetically better.

there is no question that some diamonds, due to their cut are better than others. gia has a wide range of angles that is considers to be 'excellent' while ags has a much smaller range that it considers to be 'ideal'. there are some of these combinations that overlap in both systems that you can bet are very nice and there are some combinations that make 'excellent' with gia that are noticeably different from stones within the same grade (excellent) that wouldn't make ags 'ideal'.

it's like saying there is a certain thread count in sheets that makes them better. if ags is grading sheets, for them to be ideal they have to be 600-900ct and gia says they have to be 300-900 to be considered excellent.
(if you're not into thread counts, then this may have been a totally useless example, but it was all i could come up with at the moment!

) i hope you get my point.

 

[kenny]

strmrdr wrote
"False in some cases
I can point out some gia graded diamonds that are better cut than most ags0 AGS graded diamonds.
Dont confuse the paper with the diamond.
Dont make blanket statements like that please it does not serve anyone.
Is the average AGS graded diamond better cut then the average GIA graded diamond? Likely yes.
But remember that AGS allows them to downgrade the cert to one without cut information if they dont like the score so there is nothing stopping someone from using AGS certs on poor cut goods.

To be honest I pretty much ignore both labs cut grading and apply my own which is much stricter than either.
Some/Most of the pricescope prosumers and vendors do the same."



Sorry, I was trying to use small words.

Think of the Target's store's logo of concentric circles.
The most ideal cut (the goal) is the center of the circles.
The small cirle in the middle is AGS.
The larger circle on the outside is GIA.

Sure SOME of the cuts from GIA will be near the circle but ALL of the ones from AGS will be.

I think this person who doesn't like the AGS PERSON is missing the point.
It doesn't matter if (s)he likes the jeweler, or likes me.
You are not going to wear a person on your finger.
It is all about getting the best cut.

Ideally you will learn TONS about diamond cuts.
It sounds like you don't want to.
So for you, and many others, I'd say pass up the EGL and the IGI stones.
Now we have learned we increase the odds of getting the best cut by passing by the GIA stones and insisting on the AGS stones.

Sure learn even more, get even smarter and you can ignore the lab and pick the best based on YOUR knowledge.
Very few people are going to go through the trouble.

 

[strmrdr]

Kenny you remind me so much of me a few months ago. LOL
No its not about getting the best cut its about getting a diamond you love that speak to you.
For some that means it has to be the best possible cut and every .01 degree matters but not for everyone.
For some that will be a AGS0 for others a GIA EX and for some a so-so cut diamond that looks best to them for what ever reason.

My asscher studies have opened my eyes to that
I used to sound just like you do.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/7/2006 4:48:41 PM
Author: strmrdr
Kenny you remind me so much of me a few months ago. LOL
No its not about getting the best cut its about getting a diamond you love that speak to you.
For some that means it has to be the best possible cut and every .01 degree matters but not for everyone.
For some that will be a AGS0 for others a GIA EX and for some a so-so cut diamond that looks best to them for what ever reason.

My asscher studies have opened my eyes to that
I used to sound just like you do.

Who are you and what have you done with strmrdr?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[kenny]

I'm sure in time I will stop practicing such a simple gospel and get more educated.

But for Joe Consumer with a short attention span "Buy AGS" is about the best one-sentence sermon you can give them.

No?

What other quick simple advice can you give the average USA TODAY-reading dummed-down consumer?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/7/2006 4:57:11 PM
Author: kenny

What other quick simple advice can you give the average USA TODAY-reading dummed-down consumer?

www.pricescope.com

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/7/2006 4:55:43 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 3/7/2006 4:48:41 PM

Author: strmrdr

Kenny you remind me so much of me a few months ago. LOL

No its not about getting the best cut its about getting a diamond you love that speak to you.

For some that means it has to be the best possible cut and every .01 degree matters but not for everyone.

For some that will be a AGS0 for others a GIA EX and for some a so-so cut diamond that looks best to them for what ever reason.


My asscher studies have opened my eyes to that

I used to sound just like you do.

Who are you and what have you done with strmrdr?


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

hehehe I dunno, maybe im growing up a little as a diamond nut.
I still like the n-th degree stuff myself but well.......

 

[kenny]

I am in the choir you are preaching to, brother!

But you are missing my point that most people are not like you or me.
They want simple quick advice.

Would they be smarter to seek out an AGS stone, a GIA stone, or one from Tiffany?
Both took the same amount of education.

A great example is in this thread when someone complained about hearing "big words."
I think this is a much more typical buyer.

But yes, for those who will dig in, and spend the time, weeks or months on Pricescope is the best advice!
It is not possible to learn too much.
The more you learn the better you will do.

But that's not they typical buyer.

 

[strmrdr]

I hear you Kenny.
Maybe this weekend we can start another thread and discuss it when I have more time and energy.
For now if its ok with you let leave this discussion to working on improving the GIA system and discussing the issues with it.

 

[kenny]

Sure.
Sorry for the hijack!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Guys Priscope beats GIA on the web, but GIA wins hands down in real world land - mainly because they have built up huge trust.

Also I am eavsdropping many diamond buyers here at this fair and I can tell you the new info on the cut Grades has had little impact yet.
People are still haggling over VG or Ex Symmetry and Polish.

When they do bother to read the new reports - it will probably be because their consumer customers will say "what does this part about Cut Grade mean?"

The next big thing will be triple Excellent GIA certs

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 3/7/2006 6:46:26 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
When they do bother to read the new reports - it will probably be because their consumer customers will say ''what does this part about Cut Grade mean?''

And unfortunately, most won''t have a clue, others will continue with their flm flam, and still others will say that it is correct, when it is not

The next big thing will be triple Excellent GIA certs Don''t give big brother any ideas..

 

[Dancing Fire]

Garry
are there many cutters shooting for the steepest/deepest GIA EX combo possible? have you been seeing a lot of this combo out in the market?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 3/7/2006 11:21:44 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
Garry
are there many cutters shooting for the steepest/deepest GIA EX combo possible? have you been seeing a lot of this combo out in the market?

Yes, and wouldnt you if you were a cutter?

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/8/2006 3:29:45 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/7/2006 11:21:44 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
Garry
are there many cutters shooting for the steepest/deepest GIA EX combo possible? have you been seeing a lot of this combo out in the market?

Yes, and wouldnt you if you were a cutter?

Garry,

I might. I might not. I foresee a problem for GIA that may be fairly serious with regard to the motivations of the cutters. AGS-0 is almost certainly going to sell for a higher premium than the same stone if it were graded as a GIA-excellent. This means that the cutters will be motivated to send stones to AGS if they are entitled to an AGS-0 and send them to GIA if they are Excellent but non-ideal. Non-excellent, non-ideal will go to EGL, IGI and others. Depending on how strong the AGS premium is, it may even be worthwhile for arbitragers to resubmit certain GIA stones to AGS and mysteriously lose the GIA paperwork. This strikes me as a nightmare for GIA. Instead of making Ideal the center ring of the target and Excellent the same thing with a bigger bulls eye as described above, it would make Ideal the bulls eye and Excellent the next ring out.

Most modern cutters are well equipped and highly skilled. Depending on issues of the original rough and the marketplace being manufactured for, many will still choose to aim for that second ring with certain stones but GIA is providing a huge motivation for the ‘best’ stones to go to AGS and are inadvertently setting up the marketplace to define ‘excellent’ to mean ‘pretty good for a non-ideal’. Just as bad, if the cutter is aiming for the 3rd ring for whatever reason, they are now even more inspired than before to use a non-GIA lab for fear of getting a dreaded ‘poor’ or ‘fair’ grading. For a group that seems to have gotten into the cut grading business because of competitive pressures to do so, this sounds like a disaster. Instead of providing a nice easy target that keeps everyone happy, they have reduced their own optimum market share to a very small section of the target.

I agree that GIA is the most powerful brand in the jewelry business today but this is not carved in stone. The markets can be remarkably fickle and many of the golden brands of history are, well, history. I hope it doesn’t happen. GIA is a wonderful group and they continue to be a great benefit to the jewelry industry. I would like to see them continue to thrive and I hope they get through this with only minimal damage. In the meantime, I sure wish I had bought stock in AGSL.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[bar01]

I was scanning the Wall Street Journal this morning (3-8-06) and saw an article on the GIA scandal and its woes. Not a mention of their new cut system. Not a mention of AGS as I recall.

Perhaps an opportunity for one (or more together) of you respected and well known professionals to submit a letter to the editor with a few key points mentioned ?

 

[TheDoctor]

The progression of GIA to a cheering section for online sales of mediocre diamonds could have been predicted a couple of years ago. The red flags are up.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 3/8/2006 8:26:53 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Garry,

I foresee a problem for GIA that may be fairly serious with regard to the motivations of the cutters. AGS-0 is almost certainly going to sell for a higher premium than the same stone if it were graded as a GIA-excellent. This means that the cutters will be motivated to send stones to AGS if they are entitled to an AGS-0 and send them to GIA if they are Excellent but non-ideal. Neil if only AGs would reduce their Polish and symmetry strictness they could grade a lot more really nice stones, grow their market share and protect consumers. Non-excellent, non-ideal will go to EGL, IGI and others I am not sure about EGL, but now that IGI are rolling out prportions on their reports, they have a lot to offer and I think many stones that get GIA''s Excellent will not get IGI''s top grade, even with their ancient system. . Depending on how strong the AGS premium is, it may even be worthwhile for arbitragers to resubmit certain GIA stones to AGS and mysteriously lose the GIA paperwork. This strikes me as a nightmare for GIA. Instead of making Ideal the center ring of the target and Excellent the same thing with a bigger bulls eye as described above, it would make Ideal the bulls eye and Excellent the next ring out.

Most modern cutters are well equipped and highly skilled. Depending on issues of the original rough and the marketplace being manufactured for, many will still choose to aim for that second ring with certain stones but GIA is providing a huge motivation for the ‘best’ stones to go to AGS and are inadvertently setting up the marketplace to define ‘excellent’ to mean ‘pretty good for a non-ideal’. Just as bad, if the cutter is aiming for the 3rd ring for whatever reason, they are now even more inspired than before to use a non-GIA lab for fear of getting a dreaded ‘poor’ or ‘fair’ grading. For a group that seems to have gotten into the cut grading business because of competitive pressures to do so, this sounds like a disaster. Instead of providing a nice easy target that keeps everyone happy, they have reduced their own optimum market share to a very small section of the target. The issue here is that wiht smaller stones with GIA dossier reports - there is no plot and GIA seem to believe that they should protect the market and consumers by mandatory girdle inscriptions - but if the stone is .499 to .505ct then there is no possability to remove the inscription and resubmit it to another lab.

But personaly it is my belief that GIA does this because they have such a dreadful staff churn and training quality consisitence issue that they can be sure they are not having the same stone sent back 3 times for different grades - the vendor takes the best report and trashes the rest. GIA have more chance to detect and isolate resubmitted larger stones because there are less of them and there is a better chance of differentiation thru weight, proportion variables and bringing up the plots of other likely candidates for an ID match (this system is what they called Horizon).

I agree that GIA is the most powerful brand in the jewelry business today but this is not carved in stone. The markets can be remarkably fickle and many of the golden brands of history are, well, history. I hope it doesn’t happen. GIA is a wonderful group and they continue to be a great benefit to the jewelry industry. I would like to see them continue to thrive and I hope they get through this with only minimal damage. In the meantime, I sure wish I had bought stock in AGSL.

I agree Neil - GIA does some wonderful and protective research in treatment and synthetic detection that is not only used in their own grading service - but by regular jewellers and gemmologists. But on the other side - the lab has become so important to maintaining salaries and bonuses that GIA has begun all sorts of non-transperent practices to stop other labs using their fundemental research.

For instance many labs make spectra and othe data bases to multi industry common standards and are prepared to share the data - but GIA will not.

Given the industry donations and support this is bad.

HRD has also gone down the same devisive route in Europe and many are predicting that this type of secular thinking will lead to their demise.

I think that the idea of Not for profit (not Non profit) labs might be inferior to commercial labs that seem in my experiance to have higher quality control standards because they train better and keep their staff for 2 -3 times longer.

There is a big incentive for Ex GIA GTL staff to get higehr salaries - many companies we know boast that their staff are former GIA- GTL graders - so it is very easy to get a job outside once you have done some time inside the Pearly gates.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Garry,

IGI has quite a bit of historical baggage to overcome but I applaud their efforts. I’ve not seen any of their reports that include a cut grade or cut grading information. Is this to be included on all of their various documents and from all of their grading facilities? Has it been released yet?

Identifying stones that you’ve seen before isn’t all that difficult in the age of computers. Gemprint can do it easily, automatically and very inexpensively. I’m sure they would be happy to make a deal to assist GIA in solving this problem if they haven’t worked out another solution. Errors happen, but there’s no reason that they can’t arrange to automatically intercept unaltered duplicate submissions 99.9%+ of the time without regard to the size of the stone and without the need for a girdle inscription. This holds true for every other lab as well. As a side note, I hardly ever see a dossier. Perhaps it’s just my market but they are not especially popular here. I can certainly understand why a dealer might choose a different lab for exactly the reasons you describe.

I have no problem with the labs making a profit. In my heart, I’m a pretty capitalist fellow and the notion that money flows toward the folks who offer the best services for the best prices strikes me as mostly a good thing and that it makes everyone better because of it. Pressure from stockholders can do wonders for adding clarity of thought. I’m ok if it makes a few people rich in the process.

The difficulty that GIA has with hiring and retaining skilled workers is an interesting symptom of their quasi-business status. I’m reminded of a similar situation in the accounting world. Doing time as an employee of IRS is decidedly a good resume item for an accountant and quite a few new CPA''s will do a stint there for exactly this reason. In the end, their turnover of employees is horrendous because the rest of the industry treats them as a training and proving ground. Their pay and benefits package is set by congress and it’s effectively impossible for them to make policies that reward the best and jettison the rest.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 3/8/2006 9:54:38 AM
Author: Bertrand

I was scanning the Wall Street Journal this morning (3-8-06) and saw an article on the GIA scandal and its woes. Not a mention of their new cut system. Not a mention of AGS as I recall. I would suspect that one could infer from the quote from Harry Winston's "the top tier jewelers, if they're not already, are going to do what we're doing, double checking the labs".. that they are looking to AGS

Perhaps an opportunity for one (or more together) of you respected and well known professionals to submit a letter to the editor with a few key points mentioned ? You don't think that a few people out here haven't already, a long time ago, been contacted by the WSJ authors

PS: this link seems to work

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB114178917941992248-lMyQjAxMDE2NDAxODcwODg5Wj.html

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 3/8/2006 10:54:13 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I agree Neil - GIA does some wonderful and protective research in treatment and synthetic detection that is not only used in their own grading service - but by regular jewellers and gemmologists. But on the other side - the lab has become so important to maintaining salaries and bonuses that GIA has begun all sorts of non-transperent practices to stop other labs using their fundemental research.
By non transparent do you mean BLACKHOLE.

It is tiring having one way conversations with ZERO feedback, that is why I gave up with them.

I should have taken the advice of a certain high placed GIA person when he had told me I should patent the SAS2000 Liquid Nitrogen Immersion Spectroscopy technique I was demonstrating in Tuscon, cutting the time to do a cryogenic spectra down to 30 seconds or so from 30 minutes.

I, as well as others, can get on a rant about this, and the ripoffs go way back (Ask Jeff at Gemological Products). It is all about CONTROL and POWER = $$$$$$$$

They did the same type of thing to me...


For instance many labs make spectra and othe data bases to multi industry common standards and are prepared to share the data - but GIA will not. Surprised?

Proprietary standards make money, and you can always change them at will, with few being the wiser about what is going on. Fancy color diamonds are a prime example. Take a well established scientific system, rename and adjust the boundaries without defining them, and you have a proprietary stranglehold on the industry.

Ever wonder about the LACK of definative criteria on Green diamonds, and what was left out of the HPHT detection question.

Only the Ivory Tower is qualified to do it. It makes it difficult for others to render needed services when one entity gets tax exempt gifts of equipment and funding to buy some very expensive equipment, while other smaller labs have to work for their money to be able to get a heads up.

Given the industry donations and support this is bad. That is an UNDERSTATEMENT.

Don''t get me started

 

[denverappraiser]

Only the Ivory Tower is qualified to do it. It makes it difficult for others to render needed services when one entity gets tax exempt gifts of equipment and funding to buy some very expensive equipment, while other smaller labs have to work for their money to be able to get a heads up.

Marty,

Equipment donations to GTL are deductible as charitable contributions? If so, this would mean that I’m wrong with my previous statement about it being a for-profit subsidiary of a charity and I stand corrected (after all those nice things diamonddawn said about me too

). I agree that this would be a competitive advantage being granted to them by the generosity of the US taxpayers that seems unwarranted given the competitive climate between the labs. It’s been a while since I checked this out and it doesn’t affect me as much as it does you so I’m not all that attentive to their web of corporate structures. Are you sure? Any idea if this being protested by EGL, IGI, AGS et. al.? It seems like they would have a pretty good case.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[NanStacy]

Just a word of thanks to all of you on this excellent thread.
Imagine how difficult this kind of interchange would have been before the Web, and Pricescope!

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 3/8/2006 1:34:26 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Only the Ivory Tower is qualified to do it. It makes it difficult for others to render needed services when one entity gets tax exempt gifts of equipment and funding to buy some very expensive equipment, while other smaller labs have to work for their money to be able to get a heads up.

Marty,

Equipment donations to GTL are deductible as charitable contributions? If so, this would mean that I’m wrong with my previous statement about it being a for-profit subsidiary of a charity and I stand corrected (after all those nice things diamonddawn said about me too

). I agree that this would be a competitive advantage being granted to them by the generosity of the US taxpayers that seems unwarranted given the competitive climate between the labs. It’s been a while since I checked this out and it doesn’t affect me as much as it does you so I’m not all that attentive to their web of corporate structures. Are you sure? Any idea if this being protested by EGL, IGI, AGS et. al.? It seems like they would have a pretty good case.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Equipment, diamonds, etc all in the name of "research", a lot of which goes into the proprietary blackhole.

I shouldn''t always be so critical, because they do publish some interesting stuff in G&G and online, and AGAIN, I have to commend them for putting all the pre 1980 Gems and Gemology issues on the internet for free.

I also think their educational programs are improving from what I have seen, after the severe dumbing down in the 90''s, and AGAIN, I commend them on that.

As to the lab''s influence in selling paper driving down the standards, SHAME ON THEM

 

[StonesThrow]

Just wanted to thank everyone for a great thread. Lots of us are listening

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 3/8/2006 2:53:48 PM
Author: NanStacy
Just a word of thanks to all of you on this excellent thread.
Imagine how difficult this kind of interchange would have been before the Web, and Pricescope!

And I bet there is a certain individual with heartburn sitting in his plush office in Carlsbad cursing the day they were "invented" .

I might add that the fish rots from the head down...

 

[DiamondExpert]

...and the plot sickens...http://www.nationaljeweler.com/nationaljeweler/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002155218

It sure would be nice to know who they are, but unless the info leaks out, I guess we might never know.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 3/8/2006 5:18:16 PM
Author: DiamondExpert
...and the plot sickens... http://www.nationaljeweler.com/nationaljeweler/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002155218


It sure would be nice to know who they are, but unless the info leaks out, I guess we might never know.

I just removed a dot prior to the http so your hpertext link would be active..

It is sort of a laugh with "GIA banning diamond dealers", the guy in the next office at 580 Fifth Ave just submits the stone under another account.. NO Problemo.. 2nd Party submitters or "take in" windows like overseas