H&A fire question

[Stephan]

Under certain specific lighting, H&A diamonds tend to show their most beautiful fire in their arrows.
I have a few questions about this.
Is it possible to predict what will produce the most 'flare'? (when fire is so strong that it is even visible outside the facet that produces it. Some diamonds have a lot of fire, but almost no 'flare'.)
Higher crowns? Larger arrows? Star/upper girdle ratio? Small tables?
At what pavilion/crown combo does the table become dark in matter of fire?
AV round owners: do these diamonds have more flare than a H&A?

 

[Siamese Kitty]

Hi QueenMum

I don't know the answer, but I wanted to give your topic a bump since it is interesting!

I've wondered this, too, since I really enjoy this aspect of performance. However, it seems that every time I think I have a theory on this, I buy another stone that proves me wrong. Are you in the same boat? I've lurked on the boards for a long time and it seems you may have altered your preferred "stats" a bit?

In any case, hopefully others will come along and shed some light.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I have no business in this thread but I did want to say that that is why "bowties" can be attractive - because those same facets that look black sometimes when they're facing a camera (just like the arrows) can be insanely colorful at other times. And because they're so big they shoot rainbows to timbuktu!

Okay that's all, carry on.... yes the "obstruction" can be wowza

 

[Stephan]

Hi QueenMum

I don't know the answer, but I wanted to give your topic a bump since it is interesting!

I've wondered this, too, since I really enjoy this aspect of performance. However, it seems that every time I think I have a theory on this, I buy another stone that proves me wrong. Are you in the same boat? I've lurked on the boards for a long time and it seems you may have altered your preferred "stats" a bit?

In any case, hopefully others will come along and shed some light.

Hi Siamese Kitty!

Your answer really warms my heart.
I'm on the same boat, I've bought so many diamonds, and I still don't know the answer.
In my consumer experience, I think that smaller tables, higher upper girdles (longer star facets) and higher crowns might provide stronger fire => flare in the arrows. I don't know what would be the best pavilion.
In shallow combo's I've bought a few times, long star facets really did help. Shallow diamonds can have great fire outside the arrows, while some H&A diamonds sometimes lack of fire there.
This said, I think H&A diamonds are the best choice and should be preferred over shallow diamonds because they allow a greater range of lighting and glow more often. At arm length, H&A diamonds look better while shallow diamonds look great in earrings or pendants.
Yet I think H&A diamonds can be very different and some have more 'flare' than others.

 

[Stephan]

I have no business in this thread but I did want to say that that is why "bowties" can be attractive - because those same facets that look black sometimes when they're facing a camera (just like the arrows) can be insanely colorful at other times. And because they're so big they shoot rainbows to timbuktu!

Okay that's all, carry on.... yes the "obstruction" can be wowza

Hi Sara, 2 great points!
~ obstruction
~ size of the facet producing the fire
Thank you!

 

[Cehrabehra]

I have no business in this thread but I did want to say that that is why "bowties" can be attractive - because those same facets that look black sometimes when they're facing a camera (just like the arrows) can be insanely colorful at other times. And because they're so big they shoot rainbows to timbuktu!

Okay that's all, carry on.... yes the "obstruction" can be wowza

Hi Sara, 2 great points!
~ obstruction
~ size of the facet producing the fire
Thank you!

Those huge "ugly" bowtie facets on my stone produce HUGE flares. Really huge. I burned my retinas many times staring at the blare of rainbow moving it back and forth through an infinite number of colors. I know all diamonds do that, but mine just did it really easy and really big lol I have a pic, let me get it...

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Stephan,

Your distinction between fire and flare is unclear to me, but I understand your observation of the arrows in a proper H&A showing extreme fire.

Sara, you are on the right track linking this to obstruction.

Trying to link the observation to specific angles, lower-girdle-lengths and so on shows to some extent how the knowledge gained on PS is fractional at best, and how we struggle to use that partial knowledge to prove aspects outside of that knowledge-base.

The main reason for this observation of extreme fire however is the extent of 3-dimensional precision in the cutting-process. This should not be mistaken by the traditional notion of H&A and 'it is all in the hearts'. It can however be checked by looking at the crispness of the stone and the simplified viewing-environment of a H&A-viewer can show this easier in the arrows-view.

Live long,

 

[Cehrabehra]

I couldn't find the picture I was looking for, but this one illustrates one part of what I was talking about re SIZE.

In this pic on the far left you can see the reflection from the table and then you see two smaller and one bigger of the BIG rainbows and then a bunch of little rainbows. The little rainbows (and the pic I was looking for shows hundreds of them) is really typical of what rounds to, but those crazy big ones are from my stone's *arrows* haha - aka pavilion mains and in the case of an elongated cushion - it's bow tie. They reflect what they see... when they see the sun, they reflect the sun, when they see a red shirt, they reflect red, when they see a dark haired person in a black shirt it typically looks black - ditto when it's the black camera looking back. But they also reflect leaves and flowers and blonde hair and even pink lipstick!

 

[Cehrabehra]

another pic, again not the one I was looking for, that shows what the bigger facets do - my ring was about 3 feet from the wall, the quarter up to show size reference.... the ring was too far to see any of the smaller sparkles but you can see table and 3 of the 4 main mains (yes, main mains lol). What you see on the wall in this photo is what your eye would see as a flare if you were where the wall is. Long after all of the other sparkles have faded away, I have gotten these big ones to produce long lazy rainbows on my ceiling stretching over a foot from 10 feet away, LITERALLY. Honestly, who cares if it occasionally looks dark when I'm pointing it at something dark lol I'm a blonde, it mostly reflects aprioct Anyway, I know this isn't for a H&A, but those arrows are the same facets that I'm referring to and they're doing the same thing.

 

[Stephan]

Thank you for all the input.
I realize I wasn't clear enough: what I meant by 'flare' is the fire that begins in one facet but that is so strong that it seems to contaminate other facets and prolongates outside the perimeter of the diamond.
In contradiction with fire without flare: when our eyes still can identify the limits of the facet that creates the colored flash, only visible from a short distance.
Sara, I wasn't referring to the rainbows that are visible on another surface (like a wall or a table), even if there is an obvious link to my question.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Thank you for all the input.
I realize I wasn't clear enough: what I meant by 'flare' is the fire that begins in one facet but that is so strong that it seems to contaminate other facets and prolongates outside the perimeter of the diamond.
In contradiction with fire without flare: when our eyes still can identify the limits of the facet that creates the colored flash, only visible from a short distance.
Sara, I wasn't referring to the rainbows that are visible on another surface (like a wall or a table), even if there is an obvious link to my question.

I know you weren't referring to the rainbows on other surfaces.... but this was the best way I could show it. Those rainbows hitting the wall ARE what look like flares when they're hitting your eyeball.

I believe you are calling flares what the rest of us call fire and you are calling fire what the rest of us call dispersion. Now, that's kind of goofy because all of it is dispersion, big or small, but generally the stuff that leaps out at you is called fire. If your eyeball was the wall, those rainbows on the wall would be hitting your eye and would be fire, flares.

ETA: I realize you are not at all interested in my explanation, but for whatever good it does, I realize I forgot to include the picture from my *previous* post, re the wall, so here it is. The little flashes "contained" within the facet would not even be showing up in this picture... the big flares that exceed the stone are here on the wall, and again, if your eye was the wall, yadda yadda.

 

[Stephan]

ETA: I realize you are not at all interested in my explanation, but for whatever good it does, I realize I forgot to include the picture from my *previous* post, re the wall, so here it is. The little flashes "contained" within the facet would not even be showing up in this picture... the big flares that exceed the stone are here on the wall, and again, if your eye was the wall, yadda yadda.

Of course I'm interested in your explanation! And you are right in matter of vocabular (difference between dispersion and fire).
I'm sorry if I did sound rude, but I'm really interested in your viewpoint and I know there is an obvious link between what we see on the wall or what we see in the diamond.

 

[Cehrabehra]

It's almost midnight here, I'm tired...

I was only attempting to give you some clarity on the size thing and how much that matters, I don't own a H&A diamond (yet) so I can't speak specifically to arrows, only attest that the same phenomenon in your arrows is what I see in my stone.

Maybe Paul will come back and answer this further, or perhaps we can coax John P, even though he's on the road...

 

[Stephan]

The main reason for this observation of extreme fire however is the extent of 3-dimensional precision in the cutting-process. This should not be mistaken by the traditional notion of H&A and 'it is all in the hearts'. It can however be checked by looking at the crispness of the stone and the simplified viewing-environment of a H&A-viewer can show this easier in the arrows-view.

This point is very interesting.
But certainly only a part of the puzzle.
I've owned 1 moderatly painted ACA, 3 Crafted by Infinity, 1 EightStar, 1 B.G.D. and other unbranded symmetric diamonds like the one in my avatar.
I can't explain what makes the fire difference in those diamonds.
The best fire happened in diamonds with higher crowns, shallower crowns, bold arrows, tiny arrows, 55% table, 58% table, ...
I haven't find any easy rule to apply to predict which ideal diamond will look dull or which one will gloom.

Another answer could be that cut is not the only reason, but perhaps some diamonds are less transparent.

 

[Stephan]

It's almost midnight here, I'm tired...

I was only attempting to give you some clarity on the size thing and how much that matters, I don't own a H&A diamond (yet) so I can't speak specifically to arrows, only attest that the same phenomenon in your arrows is what I see in my stone.

Maybe Paul will come back and answer this further, or perhaps we can coax John P, even though he's on the road...

Oh, Sara, now I understand you.
I wish you a great night!

 

[Cehrabehra]

yes, all of my insanity can be traced back to your first post: "larger arrows"

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Stephan,

Please define flare, hopefully you see flare in these diagrams and can annotate them so everyone is on the same page.
Which one of these has more flare?
Which one shows more fire?

The observation of fire is hugely dependant on lighting.
The observation of flare(if its the bleeding of the virtual facets) is hugely dependant upon the lighting and the type of observer(size of the aperture or iris)

 

[Andelain]

The main reason for this observation of extreme fire however is the extent of 3-dimensional precision in the cutting-process. This should not be mistaken by the traditional notion of H&A and 'it is all in the hearts'. It can however be checked by looking at the crispness of the stone and the simplified viewing-environment of a H&A-viewer can show this easier in the arrows-view.

This point is very interesting.
But certainly only a part of the puzzle.
I've owned 1 moderatly painted ACA, 3 Crafted by Infinity, 1 EightStar, 1 B.G.D. and other unbranded symmetric diamonds like the one in my avatar.
I can't explain what makes the fire difference in those diamonds.
The best fire happened in diamonds with higher crowns, shallower crowns, bold arrows, tiny arrows, 55% table, 58% table, ...
I haven't find any easy rule to apply to predict which ideal diamond will look dull or which one will gloom.

Another answer could be that cut is not the only reason, but perhaps some diamonds are less transparent.

Queenmum, I don't know the answer to what causes the fire like you're asking, but my own observation is that this stone here throws fire and flares like no other I've ever seen, and I have some nice stones. I think you're onto something with your comment about transparency, this one beats all my others including my ACA's BGD's JA TH, and even my other Eightstar.

 

[Stephan]

Hi CCL, I see some colored dispersion and some white flare in your pictures, but not real colored flare (a little orange at 11 but nothing coming out of the arrows).
But of course this is only one lighting condition.

 

[Stephan]

Hi Andelain,

Sure this diamond is nice, but in this picture the flare is almost white.
I was more talking about blue, red, ... flare.

But yes, that's some serious flare.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Hi CCL, I see some colored dispersion and some white flare in your pictures, but not real colored flare (a little orange at 11 but nothing coming out of the arrows).
But of course this is only one lighting condition.

If you want more colored light you need a smaller aperture. But reduced aperture means you will see less light and it won't be as large or as bright.

Lense flare (that faint ghosting on the edges of bright virtual facets) is a product of bright light that is adjacent to the field of view of the lense. It is must more prevalent and observable with a photographic lense in photographs than processed by the human eye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_flare

 

[Cehrabehra]

Like this?

 

[Stephan]

Yes Sara like that!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Nice as a glamour shot but not a common viewing environment.

 

[Stephan]

Lense flare (that faint ghosting on the edges of bright virtual facets) is a product of bright light that is adjacent to the field of view of the lense. It is must more prevalent and observable with a photographic lense in photographs than processed by the human eye.

Yet it really happens to my naked eye to notice extreme strong fire coming out of the diamond, mostly under spot lighting.
Not in branches like in the pictures above showing lense flare.
And it is the feature I prefer!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Yes Sara like that!

haha - your eye and the wall have become as one....

 

[Andelain]

Hi Andelain,

Sure this diamond is nice, but in this picture the flare is almost white.
I was more talking about blue, red, ... flare.

But yes, that's some serious flare.

Actually there's other colors there, but the white drowns them out. What do you expect an noon in Baghdad?!?

OK, here's some colored flare shots. These good examples of what you mean?

 

[yssie]

It's just the dispersion of a high-energy primary refraction from a large virtual facet (or, at least, a virtual facet large enough to provide sufficient separation from adjacent VFs to ensure that adjacent dispersions don't combine before the individual wavelengths reach the pupil)

I don't think precision of cut has anything to do with the outputs themselves: what it provides is a landscape of virtual facets that, compared to a run-of-the-mill RB, are in larger part sufficiently well-separated to allow propagation of these individual dispersions - and you'd need the right lighting to provide incident rays that have enough energy to produce primary refractions that travel far enough to reach your eyes like that. But any marginally chunky-faceted stone would show this effect..

 

[Karl_K]

It's just the dispersion of a high-energy primary refraction from a large virtual facet (or, at least, a virtual facet large enough to provide sufficient separation from adjacent VFs to ensure that adjacent dispersions don't combine before the individual wavelengths reach the pupil)

That is one area that is neglected when discussing flashes and that is separation.
The size of the separation between flashes is just as important as the size of the flashes if the eye is to see them.
In lighting where you can walk the mains ie light them up one by one your not only seeing large flashes but large separation between the flashes be they colored or white light.
That is a function of the large virtual facets with large separation between the flashes in lighting with the right angular size and brightness to allow the effect to take place.

dwell or how long it remains lighted is another property that must be considered.

 

[Karl_K]

I don't think precision of cut has anything to do with the outputs themselves: what it provides is a landscape of virtual facets that, compared to a run-of-the-mill RB, are in larger part sufficiently well-separated to allow propagation of these individual dispersions - and you'd need the right lighting to provide incident rays that have enough energy to produce primary refractions that travel far enough to reach your eyes like that. But any marginally chunky-faceted stone would show this effect..

Separation is a function of virtual facet size and placement and is modified by the c/p combination so it is related to the cut precision.
In a precision cut stone both the flashes and separation is consistent and the repeating pattern may be more eye catching than a random pattern.