Hillary V. The Donald, David Duke, and Chris Christie

[momhappy]

missy - I told my DH that I was thinking of not voting this year because I simply can't support any of the candidates enough to cast a vote. My DH feels very strongly that everyone should vote, so I guess we have a difference of opinion

 

[liaerfbv]

I absolutely cannot even believe anyone is "offended" at being told they shouldn't be voting for Donald Trump (be it because you're a woman or a Republican). Seriously? The man isn't turning away the support of the KKK. He made fun of a disabled reporter. I could go on (and on). I don't really care what other values might be important to you - as an American citizen I will tell everyone I know not to vote for a misogynist racist. Period. If you think your intelligence is being insulted... maybe it should be if anyone is actually considering voting for him.

 

[House Cat]

I encourage you very strongly to watch this twenty minute video if you are feeling the urge not to vote. Please vote. A very big point is made in this video, Donald has no concrete/real policies and everyone else does. This isn't a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils. It is a matter of voting for a qualified individual to sit in our highest, most honored, most important political position. Any other candidate running for president is more qualified to fulfill this role over Donald.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ#t=568

 

[missy]

I encourage you very strongly to watch this twenty minute video if you are feeling the urge not to vote. Please vote. A very big point is made in this video, Donald has no concrete/real policies and everyone else does. This isn't a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils. It is a matter of voting for a qualified individual to sit in our highest, most honored, most important political position. Any other candidate running for president is more qualified to fulfill this role over Donald.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ#t=568

House cat I will watch the video but don't worry about me not voting. I was just expressing my dissatisfaction and reacting by saying I may not vote. However I know I will vote no matter what. No matter how disgusted I am with the candidates this time. And Trump will NOT be getting my vote. Honestly I might vote for Sanders at this point if he were the democratic candidate. But since he will not be I guess Hillary Clinton will be getting my vote. Reluctantly might I add. Very reluctantly because I don't like her. But she is the lesser of all the evils.

 

[missy]

I absolutely cannot even believe anyone is "offended" at being told they shouldn't be voting for Donald Trump (be it because you're a woman or a Republican). Seriously? The man isn't turning away the support of the KKK. He made fun of a disabled reporter. I could go on (and on). I don't really care what other values might be important to you - as an American citizen I will tell everyone I know not to vote for a misogynist racist. Period. If you think your intelligence is being insulted... maybe it should be if anyone is actually considering voting for him.

Yes I have to agree with this. All true.

 

[ksinger]

missy - I told my DH that I was thinking of not voting this year because I simply can't support any of the candidates enough to cast a vote. My DH feels very strongly that everyone should vote, so I guess we have a difference of opinion

And while you are withholding your vote because none of the candidates are good enough for you, all those people who are actually susceptible to being told how to vote (the people presumably not as smart and independent as you), are making the choice for you. Heck, every voter is making the choice for you.

If the women who fought like tigers to get the vote could be alive today to see how many women throw away the most powerful weapon they have been given, to change the conditions important to them, they'd want to just head on back to the grave.

 

[ksinger]

I absolutely cannot even believe anyone is "offended" at being told they shouldn't be voting for Donald Trump (be it because you're a woman or a Republican). Seriously? The man isn't turning away the support of the KKK. He made fun of a disabled reporter. I could go on (and on). I don't really care what other values might be important to you - as an American citizen I will tell everyone I know not to vote for a misogynist racist. Period. If you think your intelligence is being insulted... maybe it should be if anyone is actually considering voting for him.

Yes I have to agree with this. All true.

Yes. Double ditto this. The displays of thin skin and a constant state of being ready to be offended by the most inconsequential things, make this thread depressing.

 

[E B]

I absolutely cannot even believe anyone is "offended" at being told they shouldn't be voting for Donald Trump (be it because you're a woman or a Republican). Seriously? The man isn't turning away the support of the KKK. He made fun of a disabled reporter. I could go on (and on). I don't really care what other values might be important to you - as an American citizen I will tell everyone I know not to vote for a misogynist racist. Period. If you think your intelligence is being insulted... maybe it should be if anyone is actually considering voting for him.

Yes I have to agree with this. All true.

Yes. Double ditto this. The displays of thin skin and a constant state of being ready to be offended by the most inconsequential things, make this thread depressing.

Triple ditto.

 

[momhappy]

missy - I told my DH that I was thinking of not voting this year because I simply can't support any of the candidates enough to cast a vote. My DH feels very strongly that everyone should vote, so I guess we have a difference of opinion

And while you are withholding your vote because none of the candidates are good enough for you, all those people who are actually susceptible to being told how to vote (the people presumably not as smart and independent as you), are making the choice for you. Heck, every voter is making the choice for you.

If the women who fought like tigers to get the vote could be alive today to see how many women throw away the most powerful weapon they have been given, to change the conditions important to them, they'd want to just head on back to the grave.

Just a couple of things - First off, because of the way the system is set up (with the electoral college), my vote actually doesn't matter. I vote because I like voting and I feel that it's my duty, but I also understand that in the grand scheme of things, my vote means nothing. Second, I never said that I was "offended" by anything that has been said in this thread. All I said was that it just didn't sit right with me. Just because someone may not agree, doesn't mean that it's some sort of personal attack. It was just my (teeny tiny) opinion and I'm starting to feel like I should have just kept it to myself. It seems like varying opinions are not welcome in some threads and I apologize if I upset/offended anyone.

 

[Bonfire]

missy - I told my DH that I was thinking of not voting this year because I simply can't support any of the candidates enough to cast a vote. My DH feels very strongly that everyone should vote, so I guess we have a difference of opinion

And while you are withholding your vote because none of the candidates are good enough for you, all those people who are actually susceptible to being told how to vote (the people presumably not as smart and independent as you), are making the choice for you. Heck, every voter is making the choice for you.

If the women who fought like tigers to get the vote could be alive today to see how many women throw away the most powerful weapon they have been given, to change the conditions important to them, they'd want to just head on back to the grave.

Just a couple of things - First off, because of the way the system is set up (with he electoral college), my vote actually doesn't matter. Second, I never said that I was "offended" by anything that has been said in this thread. All I said was that it just didn't sit right with me. Just because someone may not agree, doesn't mean that it's some sort of personal attack. It was just my (teeny tiny) opinion and I'm starting to feel like I should have just kept it to myself.

Momhappy you have a right to your opinion. Don't apologize for stating it,
I'm the one who said the op's tone was condescending. I don't apologize for my statement.
I personally find Trump offensive and disgusting, as an American not JUST because I'm a woman. I find Hillary disgusting too.

 

[ame]

I encourage you very strongly to watch this twenty minute video if you are feeling the urge not to vote. Please vote. A very big point is made in this video, Donald has no concrete/real policies and everyone else does. This isn't a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils. It is a matter of voting for a qualified individual to sit in our highest, most honored, most important political position. Any other candidate running for president is more qualified to fulfill this role over Donald.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ#t=568

YES YES YES. He really could've taken on far more about Mr. Drumpf than he did, but this was still pretty much a point for point handling of Mr. "My Level of Wealth varies based on my mood that day." <--direct quote!!!

 

[AGBF]

It was just my (teeny tiny) opinion and I'm starting to feel like I should have just kept it to myself.

Momhappy you have a right to your opinion. Don't apologize for stating it,
I'm the one who said the op's tone was condescending. I don't apologize for my statement.

Just for the record, I never asked momhappy to apologize to me nor did I ask you to do so, Bonfire. Like ksinger, I think people who talk politics should be able to take at least a little bit of flak from others. We don't really take off the gloves here!!! I tend to apologize to others (as I did, recently, to missy when I suddenly say something I didn't really mean to say and later wonder how I came to have done so. I am sometimes unintentionally offensive and I regret it when it is pointed out to me or when I come to realize it on my own. But I do not expect other posters to tiptoe around me!

Deb/AGBF

 

[VRBeauty]

I suspect that if Trump turns out to be a the Republican candidate, we will see a historic high turnout for the general election. The man is polarizing - people love him or hate him - and people will turn out to either vote for him or vote against him. I've no doubt that anyone who feels strongly enough about the election to participate in this thread will also be voting in the election!

(now please don't go proving me wrong, momhappy!)

 

[AGBF]

I encourage you very strongly to watch this twenty minute video if you are feeling the urge not to vote. Please vote. A very big point is made in this video, Donald has no concrete/real policies and everyone else does. This isn't a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils. It is a matter of voting for a qualified individual to sit in our highest, most honored, most important political position. Any other candidate running for president is more qualified to fulfill this role over Donald.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ#t=568

YES YES YES. He really could've taken on far more about Mr. Drumpf than he did, but this was still pretty much a point for point handling of Mr. "My Level of Wealth varies based on my mood that day." <--direct quote!!!

I saw that, too. It was pretty amazing. Don't study logic and then watch Trump; the disconnect will be too huge. Oh, wait. Am I showing off by mentioning logic? One studies logic in school. Am I allowed to mention school or does that make me a member of the intellectual élite?

 

[Bonfire]

AGBF, my response was to what momhappy said about her teeny tiny opinion and her starting to feel she should have just kept it to herself. I know you didn't ask for an apology from either of us. My point is, momhappy is feeling her opinion is diminished by the accusations of some. I don't think she needs to apologize for her opinions, period.

I don't think we are in disagreement here. Some of us bristle at being somewhat talked down to. A lot of us here have higher education and can form our own opinions. It's fine to encourage ideas and share, but to come at it from the standpoint of, because you are a woman you should do xyz. That's sexist. How about because we all recognize a dangerous individual because of his racism, classlesness, meaness, arrogance, etc. As a woman AND human being those are important characteristics AS WELL AS his sexism.
Lets share our ideas in a way everyone feels they can be heard and respected.

 

[momhappy]

I encourage you very strongly to watch this twenty minute video if you are feeling the urge not to vote. Please vote. A very big point is made in this video, Donald has no concrete/real policies and everyone else does. This isn't a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils. It is a matter of voting for a qualified individual to sit in our highest, most honored, most important political position. Any other candidate running for president is more qualified to fulfill this role over Donald.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ#t=568

I get it. I really do, I want to vote. I always vote. I may sit this one out though because I don't feel like I have a choice and while I would agree with you the Trump is not qualified, this is about more than being "qualified" IMO. Simply being qualified doesn't meet my expectations. I don't support the candidates on either side - many people seem to forget that Hillary called the late Senator Robert Byrd her "good friend and mentor" & he was a KKK member in his early adulthood The bottom line is that I think that all of the candidates pretty much suck....

 

[House Cat]

I encourage you very strongly to watch this twenty minute video if you are feeling the urge not to vote. Please vote. A very big point is made in this video, Donald has no concrete/real policies and everyone else does. This isn't a matter of voting for the lesser of two evils. It is a matter of voting for a qualified individual to sit in our highest, most honored, most important political position. Any other candidate running for president is more qualified to fulfill this role over Donald.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ#t=568

I get it. I really do, I want to vote. I always vote. I may sit this one out though because I don't feel like I have a choice and while I would agree with you the Trump is not qualified, this is about more than being "qualified" IMO. Simply being qualified doesn't meet my expectations. I don't support the candidates on either side, so I don't feel that I can vote for (or even against) any one candidate.

Maybe a pros and cons list can help you to feel more empowered. But then again, as it is your choice to pick a candidate, it is also your choice NOT to vote in this country. In some countries, it is the law that you have to vote.

 

[liaerfbv]

In some countries, it is the law that you have to vote.

It should be the law here as well. There is absolutely no excuse not to vote. I don't love Hillary, I don't love Bernie, and I think every Republican candidate is a blight on humanity, but our political process is what it is and sticking your head in the sand doesn't change anything - a president will still be elected. I personally would be ashamed not to vote, whether or not my vote "matters." There are so many countries who fight wars and revolt for the RIGHT to choose their leader.

 

[momhappy]

In some countries, it is the law that you have to vote.

It should be the law here as well. There is absolutely no excuse not to vote. I don't love Hillary, I don't love Bernie, and I think every Republican candidate is a blight on humanity, but our political process is what it is and sticking your head in the sand doesn't change anything - a president will still be elected. I personally would be ashamed not to vote, whether or not my vote "matters." There are so many countries who fight wars and revolt for the RIGHT to choose their leader.

The definition of sticking your head in the sand is to be unwilling to acknowledge a problem. I fully acknowledge that there is a major problem and that's exactly why I might consider not voting. I acknowledge that most of the candidates are an absolute nightmare and that I can't vote for any of them. I vote for someone because it means that I support them. If my choices are Trump & Clinton, I can't support either one.

 

[liaerfbv]

In some countries, it is the law that you have to vote.

It should be the law here as well. There is absolutely no excuse not to vote. I don't love Hillary, I don't love Bernie, and I think every Republican candidate is a blight on humanity, but our political process is what it is and sticking your head in the sand doesn't change anything - a president will still be elected. I personally would be ashamed not to vote, whether or not my vote "matters." There are so many countries who fight wars and revolt for the RIGHT to choose their leader.

The definition of sticking your head in the sand is to be unwilling to acknowledge a problem. I fully acknowledge that there is a major problem and that's exactly why I might consider not voting. I acknowledge that most of the candidates are an absolute nightmare and that I can't vote for any of them. I vote for someone because it means that I support them. If my choices are Trump & Clinton, I can't support either one.

That's where we differ. I cast a vote based on who I think would be the best person of the choices on the ballot. Who I would PUT on the ballot in the first place would be a vastly different conversation. I can't understand your stance that because you don't support either, you won't vote. There's nothing I can say on an internet forum that will change your mind, but to me there is a very clear choice in the LESSER of two evils (if you see it that way).

 

[monarch64]

In some countries, it is the law that you have to vote.

It should be the law here as well. There is absolutely no excuse not to vote. I don't love Hillary, I don't love Bernie, and I think every Republican candidate is a blight on humanity, but our political process is what it is and sticking your head in the sand doesn't change anything - a president will still be elected. I personally would be ashamed not to vote, whether or not my vote "matters." There are so many countries who fight wars and revolt for the RIGHT to choose their leader.

Ok, I agreed with you up until this point. Making voting mandatory takes away your RIGHT. It is no longer a choice at that point, and haven't we been fighting for just that--our freedom or right to CHOOSE to do things? I think it's one thing to be appalled that someone would not want to exercise their right to vote, but it is a whole other ball of wax to make it mandatory because you *feel* it is imperative. And on the off chance that your mandatory voting law took effect, what would the penalty be, exactly? Charge people a fee every year that goes up exponentially every time they don't report to the polls? Jail time? Death?

I am being hyperbolic, of course, but please tell me you are as well.

 

[missy]

In some countries, it is the law that you have to vote.

It should be the law here as well. There is absolutely no excuse not to vote. I don't love Hillary, I don't love Bernie, and I think every Republican candidate is a blight on humanity, but our political process is what it is and sticking your head in the sand doesn't change anything - a president will still be elected. I personally would be ashamed not to vote, whether or not my vote "matters." There are so many countries who fight wars and revolt for the RIGHT to choose their leader.

Ok, I agreed with you up until this point. Making voting mandatory takes away your RIGHT. It is no longer a choice at that point, and haven't we been fighting for just that--our freedom or right to CHOOSE to do things? I think it's one thing to be appalled that someone would not want to exercise their right to vote, but it is a whole other ball of wax to make it mandatory because you *feel* it is imperative. And on the off chance that your mandatory voting law took effect, what would the penalty be, exactly? Charge people a fee every year that goes up exponentially every time they don't report to the polls? Jail time? Death?

I am being hyperbolic, of course, but please tell me you are as well.

YES exactly. Which way do you want it? Because you cannot have it both ways.

 

[liaerfbv]

I am being hyperbolic... to a point. To me, voting is such a fundamental right that we have as citizens, and I can't imagine not exercising it. I do think everyone should vote, and I do wish there was some way it was "mandatory" - but I absolutely recognize that would be basically impossible to enforce. Can you imagine how different our final ballot might be if every citizen had to vote in the primaries?

 

[ksinger]

I am being hyperbolic... to a point. To me, voting is such a fundamental right that we have as citizens, and I can't imagine not exercising it. I do think everyone should vote, and I do wish there was some way it was "mandatory" - but I absolutely recognize that would be basically impossible to enforce. Can you imagine how different our final ballot might be if every citizen had to vote in the primaries?

Perhaps it is a bit over the top, but I suspect the people who created this country never thought in a million years that those with the power to vote, would walk away from it. I dream of leaving the US for good, yet I don't think I've yet thrown in the towel to the point that I thumb my nose at the civic virtue of voting, civic virtue being a concept that loomed large for the founders, and without which, our form of government really WILL die. And it will die in a stampede of people loudly proclaiming their right to give up their rights.

It makes my head hurt.

 

[House Cat]

At the very least, they should make election day a paid holiday for all to encourage voter turnout. Many countries do this. I think election results would look much different if voting were made convenient for the working class and the working poor.

 

[ksinger]

At the very least, they should make election day a paid holiday for all to encourage voter turnout. Many countries do this. I think election results would look much different if voting were made convenient for the working class and the working poor.

Pssst.....the oligarchs wouldn't like that. Discouraging voters is a huge part of the strategy, because yes, elections would look very different if people had real time off to do it, and they (the oligarchs) might lose.

IMO, the first thing we MUST do to heal the political life of this country, is to figure out how to dismantle unfettered money in elections. Election reform on a massive scale. Not sure how that can be effected, but I'm strongly suspecting that the majority taking their political balls and going home in a huff, won't do the trick.

 

[Jambalaya]

To flip it, Person A demonstrates a dislike for Group X based on characteristics such as gender, skin color, sexual orientation, etc. Person B urges the populace not to support Person A in their prejudice.

Momhappy, you surely don't mean to say that Person B should not do that, so that they are not telling others what to do?

I believe that I've made my point pretty clearly this thread, jambalaya. It just didn't sit right with me to say that no woman should vote for Trump. That's all. I may not like Trump, but I'm not comfortable using my status as a women to tell other women who they should or shouldn't vote for. If others are, that's fine. It's not a personal attack on AGBF (I actually enjoy reading her thoughts/opinions) - it's just sharing my opinion as she (and others) have.

I understand, Momhappy. Usually I'm the first to bristle if I feel that I'm being told what to do. I didn't feel that, in this particular instance, but of course people vary in how they respond to the same thing.

ETA: Now that I've had a chance to read all the responses, Momhappy, I want to say that I'm sorry you felt your opinion was teen tiny and should have been kept to yourself. I do see what you mean. Like Missy, I might agree with your viewpoint more if the subject matter hadn't been Donald and his sexism. Like her, I made an exception due to how polarizing he is and how unusual it is to have a candidate with his sexist views. But I do see your point, in general terms, about not making decisions on the basis of being female.

 

[Jambalaya]

There is a large group of Trump supporters that don't seem to care whether or not he sticks his foot in his mouth. There seems to be a different value system driving many of them. Maybe racist groups aren't the worst endorsement for Mr Trump after all.


[url=https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=CoAmll3ViQA]https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=CoAmll3ViQA[/url]

I'm afraid to watch this link, House Cat!

 

[Jambalaya]

That terrible word for a person of African heritage is completely unacceptable in our culture, and rightly so. However, equally terrible words for women are tolerated, fully absorbed into our culture, and used often. The ones rhyming with witch, punt, tut, and others.

That's why Trump feels comfortable letting the cat out of the bag about his sexism, but not any other prejudices he might hold. He knows full well that to use the first word I referred to here would kill his presidential chances stone-dead, but not his sexism.

In other words, if you elect a president who is sexist, don't be surprised if he also turns out to be racist and homophobic but smart enough to keep the "unacceptable" prejudices under wraps during the election process.

EXACTLY. I cannot help but think of these infamous words...

“Many years later, after Niemöller had been imprisoned for eight years in concentration camps as the personal prisoner of Adolf Hitler, he penned these infamous words:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionist, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Jew.
And then they came for me -
and there was no one left to speak for me.”
― Eric Metaxas, Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy

It is not OK for Donald Trump to malign women the way he does and yet obviously a good majority of people are OK with it. Well just wait and see if you are OK with having a person with this character (or lack of character to be more precise) in the White House.

Oh, Missy, that quote was running through my mind again and again last night.

 

[momhappy]

In some countries, it is the law that you have to vote.

It should be the law here as well. There is absolutely no excuse not to vote. I don't love Hillary, I don't love Bernie, and I think every Republican candidate is a blight on humanity, but our political process is what it is and sticking your head in the sand doesn't change anything - a president will still be elected. I personally would be ashamed not to vote, whether or not my vote "matters." There are so many countries who fight wars and revolt for the RIGHT to choose their leader.

The definition of sticking your head in the sand is to be unwilling to acknowledge a problem. I fully acknowledge that there is a major problem and that's exactly why I might consider not voting. I acknowledge that most of the candidates are an absolute nightmare and that I can't vote for any of them. I vote for someone because it means that I support them. If my choices are Trump & Clinton, I can't support either one.

That's where we differ. I cast a vote based on who I think would be the best person of the choices on the ballot. Who I would PUT on the ballot in the first place would be a vastly different conversation. I can't understand your stance that because you don't support either, you won't vote. There's nothing I can say on an internet forum that will change your mind, but to me there is a very clear choice in the LESSER of two evils (if you see it that way).

And that's what I posted earlier - I do not see a lesser of two evils. Maybe you missed my post above about Hillary & the late Senator Robert Byrd, her good friend & mentor, who also happened to be a member of the KKK in his 20's & 30's. She has proven that she cannot be trusted.....and don't even get me started about Sanders.....
Also, it has been mentioned that people should feel obligated to vote because people have fought and/or died for that right, well people have died for religion, so does that mean we should all feel obligated to go to church? And people have died for our right to bear arms, so does that mean we should all own a gun? I take my right to vote very seriously and I typically enjoy voting, but when you can't even choose a lesser of two evils, what are you supposed to do?