How do you feel about this teen's faked pregnancy?

[suchende]

I have a constitutional law final tomorrow so I need to walk away from this thread, but it's an interesting topic on a lot of levels.

 

[VapidLapid]

Griffin was 39 years old, not a high school student. In his experiment he didnt show up one day at his job or to his family suddenly black. I did not say that social experiments are invalid, just this entire project. If I were in Human Resources I would never hire her, unless she were a spy and I needed a double agent with no moral compass.

 

[ksinger]

Griffin was 39 years old, not a high school student. In his experiment he didnt show up one day at his job or to his family suddenly black. I did not say that social experiments are invalid, just this entire project. If I were in Human Resources I would never hire her, unless she were a spy and I needed a double agent with no moral compass.

LOL'ed at that one.

Tiny thread-jack - how's the chain coming VL? Did you ever get Stark's book and start making ancient chains? I'm getting ready to spring for actual 22K gold to make an 18" 2-way double necklace. It'll be the first time I've worked with gold and I'm scared spitless, not to mention that it's gonna cost an arm and leg. Maybe someone will buy it off my neck. I'm also working on a pair of bezeled earrings right now. Coming along pretty well.

Maybe we should start a jewelry-making thread, for those of us who make stuff...?

End jack.

 

[Circe]

Tiny thread-jack - how's the chain coming VL? Did you ever get Stark's book and start making ancient chains? I'm getting ready to spring for actual 22K gold to make an 18" 2-way double necklace. It'll be the first time I've worked with gold and I'm scared spitless, not to mention that it's gonna cost an arm and leg. Maybe someone will buy it off my neck. I'm also working on a pair of bezeled earrings right now. Coming along pretty well.

Maybe we should start a jewelry-making thread, for those of us who make stuff...?

End jack.

Dude, I would LOVE a jewelry-making thread ... heck, for that matter, a sub-forum for the amateurs would be amazing!

 

[zoebartlett]

[quote="JewelFreak|1303656447The only lesson I see here is for her schoolmates: that they will be publicly ridiculed for expressing disapproval in a private conversation. The chilling thing is that if she had pretended to have robbed a store, I doubt the attitude would have been any different -- don't ostracize her because "she made a bad choice." Namby pamby nicey nicey & both "choices" are simply wrong and harmful.

--- Laurie

With you 200% on this.

I also believe that condoms should be handed out to anyone that wants them. If I were a school guidance counselor I would have a giant bowl of them on my desk, along with brochures about abstinence to appease the parents.

Ostracism plays a role in society; it punishes people for unacceptable behavior. I can only imagine the agony of being a drug addict, but my reflex is not sympathy and it shouldn't be.[/quote]

iLander, addiction is a disease but teen pregnancy isn't.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

[quote="JewelFreak|1303656447The only lesson I see here is for her schoolmates: that they will be publicly ridiculed for expressing disapproval in a private conversation. The chilling thing is that if she had pretended to have robbed a store, I doubt the attitude would have been any different -- don't ostracize her because "she made a bad choice." Namby pamby nicey nicey & both "choices" are simply wrong and harmful.

--- Laurie

With you 200% on this.

I also believe that condoms should be handed out to anyone that wants them. If I were a school guidance counselor I would have a giant bowl of them on my desk, along with brochures about abstinence to appease the parents.

.

Could/would this even be allowed? I do like the idea of free condoms being available. Probably in a private area b/c it's less likely kids will come into the school office to grab a handful. lol

Maybe a special part of the library?

ETA - and I'm a parent of two boys and plan to give them condoms. My friend who became preg while we still were in HS use to keep a bunch of them under the sink in her bathroom and so they were easily available to her kids. She was very open about her situation!

 

[risingsun]

Ususally I am known as a heretic who espouses radical ideas long before they become socially viable or popular. I place a high value on empirical investigation and encourage the development of that faculty. This one, however, was poorly chosen and poorly designed. Firstly this has nothing to do with the teaching of or learning of biology. This is a sociologic topic. The Bio teacher who signed off on this should be censured. Then too, even as a sociology project, there should have been a time limit on the deception of no more than two weeks, not six months. This engendered a debris field of lies on top of the thesis in the daily praxis of their lives and the lives of everyone in her family, friends and school. It is also, I think, psychologically damaging to have a teenager, which is to say a developing personality and ethical being, live out a complex lie to show others the harm and narrowness of their preconceptions. The issue of teenage pregnancy is mocked and then totally eclipsed by the issues of the irrelevancy, exploitation, implicit air of moral superiority, deception, and loss of trust that are the direct effects of this "project"

This is exactly the point. It was a poorly designed study of human behavior, including that of the "pregnant" girl, herself. Something like this so-called project can be damaging to all concerned. What was discovered? What we already know. No new ground broken here. Very questionable judgement to allow this project to be permitted to go forward.

 

[natascha]

I would be mortified and asking myself what I did wrong if she in any way harmed any of the pregnant girls/moms at our school. But I'm really not worried about the fact that she doesn't want to hang out with them, that she privately rolls her eyes at the kids who pay undue to attention to it, that she finds the whole thing a huge distraction to the learning environment. Because that's what it is.

+1

I can't buy moral relativity. EVERYTHING isn't ok if a nice person does it. Nor if saying so will hurt somebody's self-esteem. A dose of injured self-esteem is good for everyone at times in their lives -- makes them try to do better. Getting pregnant in high school is morally wrong 1) because it's so easily prevented, and 2) because the outlook for the child (and mother) is poor, unless the mother can afford to take care of a child well physically & has someone to help provide for its emotional growth. A teenager has not lived enough life yet to be able to do the latter, is still growing herself. To me, it's a selfish short-sighted act. And unintelligent.

Before anyone fans up flames, once in a while it works, usually it fails sadly. Yes, in the "old days" couples married & had families in their teens -- the married part helps from economic, emotional & stability viewpoints, and communities & families were tight-knit then, children cared for on a number of levels by relatives & close friends. That's not taking drugs, etc., into the equation, either. Very different scene now.

--- Laurie

No flames here. Thank you Maria and JewelFreak!! I'm deadly tired of this idea that we mustn't ever "hurt anyone's feelings" by "judging" them. We judge situations and people every single day, and to do any LESS, is morally cowardly and is in fact, Amoral in every sense of the word. Again, getting pregnant as a teen in NOT a morally neutral thing. It is costly to the individuals involved and to society, and in that sense, society has a right and an obligation, to call it detrimental. Praising kids for doing this - and yes, that IS happening, at least by their peers in some places - or telling them that it's OK that they should focus on the negative reactions of others as "unfair" (which I'm fairly sure this girl will be doing), when THEY are the ones who've screwed up big time, is not going to improve the situation we now find ourselves in. Social pressure works, especially during the teen years - positive reinforcement works, and so does negative. It's just that we're all a bunch of wussies anymore and never want anyone to feel any psychic pain from their actions. The one thing we SHOULD be telling our kids instead, is that you do something like that, people WILL judge you, and that's just the way life works, and if they wish to avoid harsh judgement, then they should think twice.

Personal anecdote - like most teens I had a few opportunties to have sex before I was 18, and like most teens I was sorely tempted. You know what kept me from doing it? (Yes, I waited until college) I didn't want to distress or SHAME my mother, or endure the shame of having to admit it to anyone. I was deterred by knowledge of negative social and familial reactions. Go figure.

Sorry for responding without giving enough thought before I write. Just needed to say this before going to sleep.

Social pressure to not get pregnant by harshly judging teen pregnancies is not as effective as many other forms. The US teaches abstinence only, judges teen pregnancies harshly, etc meanwhile it has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in the developed world.
Compare that to Sweden, where safe sex is taught, we have ungdomsmottagningar which is basically free and anonymous gyn for youth, teenagers that get pregnant do not encounter the same ostracism, etc The facts are it works, Sweden has 7/1000 pregnacies vs. US 53/1000 ( sorry for the 2002 numbers).

Personal anecdote- I was brought up with a mother who taught me that I can have sex when I feel ready and that when I do she will support me. I lost my virginity when I was 19, my sister when she was 20 and this coming from a household that taught safe sex from when I entered puberty at 11. There was no shame attached to having sex and should I have gotten pregnant I knew that we would deal with it as a family. What my mother drilled in was don't bow down to social pressure, do what is right for you in a safe manner. My friends that where brought up the same with parents buying condoms etc, had a later sex debut then those friends where the parents taught to not have sex.

 

[packrat]

Teen moms get free care here too, b/c they qualify for Medicaid. I think compared w/other countries we're so loosy goosy poor baby cry me a river oh gawd nothing is ever my fault and nobody is ever expected to pay consequences. For anything. Everyone expects Hands Across America for every. single. problem. Everyone has a Victim Card laminated in their wallet and is fully prepared to throw it down at the slightest provocation. We had an 18 year old pt at my office who had been pregnant 7 times. HELLO???? Obviously didn't carry them all to term and that's not something I'd wish on anyone, ever but COME FRICKING ON PEOPLE. A 23 year old who had been PREGNANT 11 TIMES. DUDE FIG-URE IT OOOOUTTT. When tab A goes into slot B things happen, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this. Especially not in this day and age.

Encourage girls to make something of themselves and to not repeat the cycle-b/c that's exactly what's going to happen. It's not the babies fault and it's not like I'm all for treating *anyone* like crap but it's not like a girl wakes up one day pregnant. There is no pregnancy gene, or some sort of "compulsive" pregnancy thing like compulsive overeating or a "fat gene". It's not inherited like a big nose or blue eyes. You have to PUT yourself in a position to have this happen. It's not an addiction/disease that you can't help.

Being a parent isn't easy and I don't see how MAKING IT EASIER for teen parents is going to fix the problem or make it better. Oh, free daycare while I'm at school? Wait, I can go to college free? I get free food, free medical care, help w/heating and cooling my house, I can get help for rent or to buy a house? SHIT YEAH SIGN ME UP. WAAAAAIIIIITTTT....NO *I* don't get any of that free stuff b/c *I* protected myself. I DO however get the honor of paying for those that don't give a rats patoot. Whatever. I have to pay for my own condoms and birth control. Know why? B/c I'M A BIG GIRL and I can take care of my shit. Even when the crap is free it's not being used. Know why? B/c there are NO consequences-it's happy fun day balloons flying out of my butt when I'm 15 and have ultrsound pictures to show off and if someone doesn't approve of stupid little girls and boys playing house with a REAL LIVE BABY that person is the one who is frowned upon. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE.

 

[Circe]

....

Social pressure to not get pregnant by harshly judging teen pregnancies is not as effective as many other forms. The US teaches abstinence only, judges teen pregnancies harshly, etc meanwhile it has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in the developed world.
Compare that to Sweden, where safe sex is taught, we have ungdomsmottagningar which is basically free and anonymous gyn for youth, teenagers that get pregnant do not encounter the same ostracism, etc The facts are it works, Sweden has 7/1000 pregnacies vs. US 53/1000 ( sorry for the 2002 numbers).

Personal anecdote- I was brought up with a mother who taught me that I can have sex when I feel ready and that when I do she will support me. I lost my virginity when I was 19, my sister when she was 20 and this coming from a household that taught safe sex from when I entered puberty at 11. There was no shame attached to having sex and should I have gotten pregnant I knew that we would deal with it as a family. What my mother drilled in was don't bow down to social pressure, do what is right for you in a safe manner. My friends that where brought up the same with parents buying condoms etc, had a later sex debut then those friends where the parents taught to not have sex.

Oh, BRAVO. I could not agree more.

I'm not surprised at the frustration I'm seeing in this thread ... but the degree of personalization concerns me. This isn't a one-on-one, individual people, individual choices, kind of a problem. This is the result of systematic miseducation as well as class and racially based policy decisions. We shouldn't waste out time finger-waving undereducated and misinformed teenagers: we should be raging against the politicians who are choosing to keep them in the dark and disenfranchised.

 

[ksinger]

....

Social pressure to not get pregnant by harshly judging teen pregnancies is not as effective as many other forms. The US teaches abstinence only, judges teen pregnancies harshly, etc meanwhile it has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in the developed world.
Compare that to Sweden, where safe sex is taught, we have ungdomsmottagningar which is basically free and anonymous gyn for youth, teenagers that get pregnant do not encounter the same ostracism, etc The facts are it works, Sweden has 7/1000 pregnacies vs. US 53/1000 ( sorry for the 2002 numbers).

Personal anecdote- I was brought up with a mother who taught me that I can have sex when I feel ready and that when I do she will support me. I lost my virginity when I was 19, my sister when she was 20 and this coming from a household that taught safe sex from when I entered puberty at 11. There was no shame attached to having sex and should I have gotten pregnant I knew that we would deal with it as a family. What my mother drilled in was don't bow down to social pressure, do what is right for you in a safe manner. My friends that where brought up the same with parents buying condoms etc, had a later sex debut then those friends where the parents taught to not have sex.

Oh, BRAVO. I could not agree more.

I'm not surprised at the frustration I'm seeing in this thread ... but the degree of personalization concerns me. This isn't a one-on-one, individual people, individual choices, kind of a problem. This is the result of systematic miseducation as well as class and racially based policy decisions. We shouldn't waste out time finger-waving undereducated and misinformed teenagers: we should be raging against the politicians who are choosing to keep them in the dark and disenfranchised.

I agree. HOWEVER, aside from the fact that Sweden is so NOT the US and comparing them is like apples and oranges - increasing societal acceptance of teen pregnancy as a norm is also part of the problem. Please see my comments above about the attitude that the teachers in my husband's school overhear on a regular basis - family must take care of me/my child, get pregnant early so I can still have time to party, etc., positive reinforcement of said pregnancy by peers. No one here has addressed THOSE issues, and they are quite real. I'm not sure these pervasive social factors(environment outside the schools-parental values, cultural attitudes) can simply be educated or politic-ed away, certainly not in today's economic and political climate - where on one hand you have people wanting to make sex-ed an info-free sin sermon, and on the other you have people wanting sex ed to be totally values-free and self-referent, as if one's sexual choices don't impact society at large. Neither of those extremes is a great idea, IMO.

 

[suchende]

]

I agree. HOWEVER, aside from the fact that Sweden is so NOT the US and comparing them is like apples and oranges - increasing societal acceptance of teen pregnancy as a norm is also part of the problem. Please see my comments above about the attitude that the teachers in my husband's school overhear on a regular basis - family must take care of me/my child, get pregnant early so I can still have time to party, etc., positive reinforcement of said pregnancy by peers. No one here has addressed THOSE issues, and they are quite real. I'm not sure these pervasive social factors(environment outside the schools-parental values, cultural attitudes) can simply be educated or politic-ed away, certainly not in today's economic and political climate - where on one hand you have people wanting to make sex-ed an info-free sin sermon, and on the other you have people wanting sex ed to be totally values-free and self-referent, as if one's sexual choices don't impact society at large. Neither of those extremes is a great idea, IMO.

Sweden isn't the U.S. but not all of the U.S. is like your husband's school. I lived in Omak, WA and worked in a HS not far from this girl's school, and teen moms were not celebrated. Nothing like you discribe, frankly. We are talking about religious rural America, not the inner city. Apparently the principal, superintendent and one teacher in this girl's school thought the project was worthwhile enough to proceed. If they felt pregnant girls were being celebrated the way they are in your community, it seems odd that 1) the girl would want to call attention to the way they are treated or 2) that the administrators and teacher who knew would support the project.

 

[ksinger]

]

I agree. HOWEVER, aside from the fact that Sweden is so NOT the US and comparing them is like apples and oranges - increasing societal acceptance of teen pregnancy as a norm is also part of the problem. Please see my comments above about the attitude that the teachers in my husband's school overhear on a regular basis - family must take care of me/my child, get pregnant early so I can still have time to party, etc., positive reinforcement of said pregnancy by peers. No one here has addressed THOSE issues, and they are quite real. I'm not sure these pervasive social factors(environment outside the schools-parental values, cultural attitudes) can simply be educated or politic-ed away, certainly not in today's economic and political climate - where on one hand you have people wanting to make sex-ed an info-free sin sermon, and on the other you have people wanting sex ed to be totally values-free and self-referent, as if one's sexual choices don't impact society at large. Neither of those extremes is a great idea, IMO.

Sweden isn't the U.S. but not all of the U.S. is like your husband's school. I lived in Omak, WA and worked in a HS not far from this girl's school, and teen moms were not celebrated. Nothing like you discribe, frankly. We are talking about religious rural America, not the inner city. Apparently the principal, superintendent and one teacher in this girl's school thought the project was worthwhile enough to proceed. If they felt pregnant girls were being celebrated the way they are in your community, it seems odd that 1) the girl would want to call attention to the way they are treated or 2) that the administrators and teacher who knew would support the project.

In general, the adults aren't celebrating. I know the teachers aren't, but they have other things to worry about - like pretty much trying to mitigate all of societies ills on a shoestring. Hard to know where to start, and even harder when they butt right up against the stupidity of state legislatures. But then this whole issue IS linked up with politics and race, Circe is dead on about that. I wish we could talk more frankly about this on PS, but we cannot.

I will venture to say though, that if "religious and rural" was supplying the impetus to keep girls from getting pregnant too young, then where I live should have the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the country. We have one of the highest instead.

 

[Circe]

I feel like there are two distinct strains of response at issue, which sometimes overlap in terms of community ... but which still need to be treated as separate issues.

Por numero uno, we have a lack of sex education, and a ... peculiar ... morality system straight out of a Puritan's rape fantasy, where the sex is somehow less egregious if the actors weren't planning on having it. Thus, girls who carry condoms and plan ahead are seen as sluts, while girls who go with the flow? They "got caught up," but they're keeping the baby, so they're still "nice girls." (Boys, in this whole scenario, are irresponsible nonentities.) If you hadn't guessed, I'm pro-choice ... but sadly, the lack of information about condoms preventing STDs has a corollary in the misinformation being spread about the options which are available after the stick turns blue (and the concomitant efforts to eliminate those options in fact if not in law). So the end result is confused children having children, which leads to ....

... strain of response #2, celebration. I have the sneaking suspicion, if not the sociological studies to back me up on this, that a lot of the celebratory aspects cross generational lines. Huges chunks of that are political (we continue to need cannon fodder and even Walmart can't outsource everything, so there's a marked benefit to maintaining an ill-educated underclass), but huge chunks are also cultural. A fair number of my college students have come to me for advice on how to get their family to come to terms with the fact that they're going to college. In a lot of cases, the rationale is something like, "If an early marriage and a blue-collar job [and/or single-parenthood and _____ for a means of support] were good enough for me, why on earth are you wasting your time?" In some cases, that expands into a fear that the class-boundary-crossing child will think him or herself too good for their family: in others, it's a genuine concern that the kid's going beyond the precincts of what the parent knows; that those four years and large sums of money will go down the drain because there is no way out, that the system is lying, and the kid will only wind up losing the opportunity to succeed by the known standard.

I don't think that social disapproval helps in either situation. In case the first, it's useless because they're not doing it on purpose, but because they're ill- or directly mis-informed, and their main alternatives has been discouraged. And in case #2, disapproval of authority figures is being tempered by community approval, as KSinger says (and, I am betting if their peers are celebrating, they're reflecting parental attitudes, at least on some level, even if there's mutual disapproval between adults across social boundaries).

What we need is education, education, education - emulating the Swedish model is far from the worst we could do. At the moment, it's apples and oranges ... but less than 100 years ago, if I have my time-line straight, Sweden was impoverished and fairly religiously conservative. It was slow, steady, and deliberate political planning that got them to where they are today ....

 

[ksinger]

I feel like there are two distinct strains of response at issue, which sometimes overlap in terms of community ... but which still need to be treated as separate issues.

Por numero uno, we have a lack of sex education, and a ... peculiar ... morality system straight out of a Puritan's rape fantasy, where the sex is somehow less egregious if the actors weren't planning on having it. Thus, girls who carry condoms and plan ahead are seen as sluts, while girls who go with the flow? They "got caught up," but they're keeping the baby, so they're still "nice girls." (Boys, in this whole scenario, are irresponsible nonentities.) If you hadn't guessed, I'm pro-choice ... but sadly, the lack of information about condoms preventing STDs has a corollary in the misinformation being spread about the options which are available after the stick turns blue (and the concomitant efforts to eliminate those options in fact if not in law). So the end result is confused children having children, which leads to ....

... strain of response #2, celebration. I have the sneaking suspicion, if not the sociological studies to back me up on this, that a lot of the celebratory aspects cross generational lines. Huges chunks of that are political (we continue to need cannon fodder and even Walmart can't outsource everything, so there's a marked benefit to maintaining an ill-educated underclass), but huge chunks are also cultural. A fair number of my college students have come to me for advice on how to get their family to come to terms with the fact that they're going to college. In a lot of cases, the rationale is something like, "If an early marriage and a blue-collar job [and/or single-parenthood and _____ for a means of support] were good enough for me, why on earth are you wasting your time?" In some cases, that expands into a fear that the class-boundary-crossing child will think him or herself too good for their family: in others, it's a genuine concern that the kid's going beyond the precincts of what the parent knows; that those four years and large sums of money will go down the drain because there is no way out, that the system is lying, and the kid will only wind up losing the opportunity to succeed by the known standard.

I don't think that social disapproval helps in either situation. In case the first, it's useless because they're not doing it on purpose, but because they're ill- or directly mis-informed, and their main alternatives has been discouraged. And in case #2, disapproval of authority figures is being tempered by community approval, as KSinger says (and, I am betting if their peers are celebrating, they're reflecting parental attitudes, at least on some level, even if there's mutual disapproval between adults across social boundaries).

What we need is education, education, education - emulating the Swedish model is far from the worst we could do. At the moment, it's apples and oranges ... but less than 100 years ago, if I have my time-line straight, Sweden was impoverished and fairly religiously conservative. It was slow, steady, and deliberate political planning that got them to where they are today ....

Love ya Circe, I really do. And now I'll likely ramble disconnectedly...

Yes, and I guess that when I say social disapproval, I'm actually talking about the kind that comes from the INSIDE of the community - you know - like peers NOT celebrating a pregnant 16 year old. As you say, this is coming from somewhere, and it is the home. I'm not talking about some bespeckled prim adult moralizer or shunning. I'm talking about those cues that kids pick up on from family and community. The best "pressure" comes from the community itself, and family attitude is still the best indicator of how things will flow. From this perspective, sex ed, while undoubtedly needed, is the tail wagging the dog. But what can you do? Everyone points to the inadequacy of the sex ed, but I would argue that the sex ed received by all kids (in a particular school/district/state) is the same, yet the pregnancy rate in the hispanic community is particularly resistant and still out the roof. So, there are clearly unique and opposing cultural factors in play here, factors that need to be addressed in a larger context than the schools can offer, although in good times we were unwilling, and now that hard times are upon us, we're still unwilling and also unable. Sigh...

I know one of my husband's best students to date, was a very driven and focused latina. She was (and is: she's on scholarship in a nursing program currently) GOING somewhere. Smart smart girl. And the other latinas just HATED her...shunned her. She actually swam against the tide, but it's a heavy cultural tide. I know my husband's lament for these girls who have such promise, is if they can just get them to graduation and not have them get pregnant, they have a good chance of breaking out.

To truly emulate the Swedish model would require 1)cultural homogeneity that they have pretty much always had and still have(compared to the US certainly) but we haven't got, 2)a mostly secular society, that we still haven't got, and probably won't ever get, certainly not in our lifetimes 3)the political will, which we surely haven't got, especially in the places - like Oklahoma - where we need it most. Medieval rules here, sadly.

I am really NOT a good representative of my state you know. Demographically, I'm top 'o the educational and money heap around here, and that's pretty sad and staggering, really.

 

[natascha]

Love ya Circe, I really do. And now I'll likely ramble disconnectedly...

Yes, and I guess that when I say social disapproval, I'm actually talking about the kind that comes from the INSIDE of the community - you know - like peers NOT celebrating a pregnant 16 year old. As you say, this is coming from somewhere, and it is the home. I'm not talking about some bespeckled prim adult moralizer or shunning. I'm talking about those cues that kids pick up on from family and community. The best "pressure" comes from the community itself, and family attitude is still the best indicator of how things will flow. From this perspective, sex ed, while undoubtedly needed, is the tail wagging the dog. But what can you do? Everyone points to the inadequacy of the sex ed, but I would argue that the sex ed received by all kids (in a particular school/district/state) is the same, yet the pregnancy rate in the hispanic community is particularly resistant and still out the roof. So, there are clearly unique and opposing cultural factors in play here, factors that need to be addressed in a larger context than the schools can offer, although in good times we were unwilling, and now that hard times are upon us, we're still unwilling and also unable. Sigh...

I know one of my husband's best students to date, was a very driven and focused latina. She was (and is: she's on scholarship in a nursing program currently) GOING somewhere. Smart smart girl. And the other latinas just HATED her...shunned her. She actually swam against the tide, but it's a heavy cultural tide. I know my husband's lament for these girls who have such promise, is if they can just get them to graduation and not have them get pregnant, they have a good chance of breaking out.

To truly emulate the Swedish model would require 1)cultural homogeneity that they have pretty much always had and still have(compared to the US certainly) but we haven't got, 2)a mostly secular society, that we still haven't got, and probably won't ever get, certainly not in our lifetimes 3)the political will, which we surely haven't got, especially in the places - like Oklahoma - where we need it most. Medieval rules here, sadly.

I am really NOT a good representative of my state you know. Demographically, I'm top 'o the educational and money heap around here, and that's pretty sad and staggering, really.

ksinger- not celebrating does not equal social disapproval. Don't you think that making all children understand from early age what becoming a parent actually means and giving them the means to not get pregnant ( I know abstinence is the only full proof way but abstinence only policy has already been shown to not work) works better as a deterrent than social disapproval?

What you are recounting about teens behavior towards pregnancy shows that they have no clue what it actually means to become a parent. You do not get to got out having fun as a teen mom, it is very hard work for many years, your family does not have to take care off you and everything will not be ok. Honestly I feel that parents that don't make their kids realize that have failed in that aspect.

I am convinced that the right way to lower teen pregnancies is not to ostracize teen moms and am honestly a bit horrified that some people still consider it to be the best way to face this problem. Very few teens that realize what getting pregnant actually means and that have options get pregnant, because lets face it, they are ruining a lot of their chances for the future.

I am half swedish and half latina and most of the time identify with my uruguayan half, I have lived in very different cultures (South Africa, Spain and Sweden) so I understand the circumstances that many teens are facing including the Hispanic community. Generally Hispanics are not more accepting of teen pregnancies but it has become more normal in many areas. This is not related to social approval but more to a feeling that you can not get out of your social class and a lack of trust. Girls mainly end up pregnant not because they want to but because they do not protect themselves and after it has happened they try to convince themselves that all is good.

I do realize that you can not compare Sweden and the US what I meant was that without using social pressure you can achieve the results we all want. In my opinion, and I know I know way to little about the US but this is a forum so I will give my two cents. The US is so caught up in their cultural, religious and political differences that they have lost track about what they actually should be focusing on, ensuring that the least number of teens possible get pregnant. Many seem to believe that if they say no, don't admit what is happening and "punish" those that do get pregnant it will all go away . But teens are not going to stop having sex so why do we not focus on creating a safe environment where teens feel secure in saying "I" am not ready and if they are ensure they do it in a safe manner.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I don't know think any new info came from her experiment. I think she did it to further herself and she succeeded. Everyone is saying how wonderfully brave she was and how amazing a young lady she is yada yada yada. The experiment didn't yield any new info but just reiterated what we already know but kudos to her for undertaking what is sure to be a boon on her record and begin a successful road path for her future.

Just thinking here... I agree it's not really any new information that is important to the world, but it gives HER some valuable insight that will change the trajectory of her perspective and perception for the rest of her life. I think *that* is where the value is - in her. I'm not sure that I would court her based on the experiment - I can't say it was brilliant... but what she DOES with the insight she gained could be a goldmine to tap into.

 

[lbbaber]

Natascha, I could not agree with your statement more:

"Many seem to believe that if they say no, don't admit what is happening and "punish" those that do get pregnant it will all go away . But teens are not going to stop having sex so why do we not focus on creating a safe environment where teens feel secure in saying "I" am not ready and if they are ensure they do it in a safe manner."

I grew up in an enviroment like the one described....sex was associated with "shame", "fear", "embarassment for the family", and God forbid if you ended up pregnant. Now as an adult,I understand WHY we were taught that, but I know it didn't work. Even with this threat of "SHAME", many I know in my community (a conservative religious environment) ended up exactly that--pregnant in High School. It brought shame on their families. MY family was kicked out of our church when my sister got pregnant her senior year in High School (literally our membership was revoked UNLESS my sister stood up in front of the congregation and apologized to the ENTIRE church for bringing shame on the church name and then the church would "vote' to see if we were allowed to stay---NO THANKS, we left) and us siblings were forced to enroll in public schools because we were tortured in the private conservative school we were attending.

I already argued my opinions in the "Is marriage necessary" thread and I am afraid I came across rather harsh or angy. The last thing I want is to be perceived that way because I have alot of respect for the people on both sides of this argument. You are all obviously SMART, INTELLIGENT, COMPASSIONATE people that want the same goal: a better future for these young girls...and lets face it, it's THE GIRLS that get all the consequences...noone even asked my sister WHO in the church/private school got her pregnant---GO FIGURE. What shame did his family deal with?

I don't know what the answers are but I know what they are not. As it was said...teens are having sex...this will not change. I wish that growing up my sister would have been able to have an open conversation WITH ANY ADULT about protecting herself but NO, because sex was SO SHAMEFUL and DIRTY and SINFUL...she hid it (as many of us who had sex in High School did). She was the unlucky one who got pregnant. Am I any less of an embarassment on my family and myself because I had sex and didn't get pregnant?


On the other side of this though....why the heck are these girls allowed to "celebrate" these pregnancies in the classes? If the ultrasound photos are causing a distraction, why are they allowed? (just like ANY object that causes a distraction). I agree with K Singer that her husband SHOULD NOT have to teach with unnecessary distractions. I DO NOT believe that we should CELEBRATE these pregnancies. I just wish we could find a middle ground between ostracization and celebration.

 

[risingsun]

From my perspective, as a counselor, my primary concerns about this project are the effects on the unknowing participants. This type of exercise is playing with people's lives. That the boyfriend's family was not told was unthinkable. There were many people who were directly affected and going through their own processes to come to terms with this pregnancy. There was no thought given to the damage that could be done to these others, including the girl's classmates. Did they have a debriefing session for those who were in need of a way to express their feelings? The adults who signed off on this project should have had more insight into the possible repercussions for the people involved, without informed consent. Let's start with betrayal of trust and go on from there.

 

[TooPatient]

Teen moms get free care here too, b/c they qualify for Medicaid. I think compared w/other countries we're so loosy goosy poor baby cry me a river oh gawd nothing is ever my fault and nobody is ever expected to pay consequences. For anything. Everyone expects Hands Across America for every. single. problem. Everyone has a Victim Card laminated in their wallet and is fully prepared to throw it down at the slightest provocation. We had an 18 year old pt at my office who had been pregnant 7 times. HELLO???? Obviously didn't carry them all to term and that's not something I'd wish on anyone, ever but COME FRICKING ON PEOPLE. A 23 year old who had been PREGNANT 11 TIMES. DUDE FIG-URE IT OOOOUTTT. When tab A goes into slot B things happen, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this. Especially not in this day and age.

Encourage girls to make something of themselves and to not repeat the cycle-b/c that's exactly what's going to happen. It's not the babies fault and it's not like I'm all for treating *anyone* like crap but it's not like a girl wakes up one day pregnant. There is no pregnancy gene, or some sort of "compulsive" pregnancy thing like compulsive overeating or a "fat gene". It's not inherited like a big nose or blue eyes. You have to PUT yourself in a position to have this happen. It's not an addiction/disease that you can't help.

Being a parent isn't easy and I don't see how MAKING IT EASIER for teen parents is going to fix the problem or make it better. Oh, free daycare while I'm at school? Wait, I can go to college free? I get free food, free medical care, help w/heating and cooling my house, I can get help for rent or to buy a house? SHIT YEAH SIGN ME UP. WAAAAAIIIIITTTT....NO *I* don't get any of that free stuff b/c *I* protected myself. I DO however get the honor of paying for those that don't give a rats patoot. Whatever. I have to pay for my own condoms and birth control. Know why? B/c I'M A BIG GIRL and I can take care of my shit. Even when the crap is free it's not being used. Know why? B/c there are NO consequences-it's happy fun day balloons flying out of my butt when I'm 15 and have ultrsound pictures to show off and if someone doesn't approve of stupid little girls and boys playing house with a REAL LIVE BABY that person is the one who is frowned upon. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE.

Yes!

My cousin had her first baby at 17. She was handed everything (including child care, etc so she could stay in school) -- so she dropped out of high school.

She got a job and worked for awhile, but then they stopped sending her checks every month because she made too much money so she quit working. Free house (oh... I'm sorry... it cost her a whole $50/month ), free childcare while in school, food, medical treatment, cell phone, transportation +++++
For awhile there her mother (the baby's grandmother) was being paid for all of the hours she watched the baby. (did I mention they lived in the same house!?!)

She finally got her GED. Still no job. Lost the rental house (couldn't manage to pull $50/month out of all the checks they sent her ). Can't afford shoes/clothes/food for her son (the family makes sure he's taken care of) but somehow can still manage cigarettes/beer?


Got an e-mail just a couple of weeks ago ---- cousin just had another baby! ...... by a different father. Still unmarried. Out of work. No home.

Guess what?
She's got no plans to go to school (even though it would be free to her) or get a job.


Yeah --- this whole idea of not hurting her feelings by saying anything to her other that " Congratulations! Isn't he just so cute! Here, I bought you these!" has really made her life great


And that bit of "joyous news" just a few days after my boss's daughter had her "joyous news"...



ETA: In case my ramble/rant wasn't clear ---- Packrat is ABSOLUTELY correct.

 

[ksinger]

OK...I know this thread has rolled on, but I thought of it after what my husband told me this morning. Had to share. Chalk it up to "random comments" perhaps.

Just found out that one of their (yes, unmarried) seniors has just had her 3rd - THIRD child.

And yes, we really DO teach sex ed here, and it ISN'T abstinence only.