I don''t want to change my last name, but he wants me too.

[Sha]

Date: 1/30/2009 1:58:05 PM
Author: CellarDoor
I don't think that I mind some people's reasons for changing their names - they hate their families, their husband's name is much more aesthetically pleasing, they want to share a name with their children - but when I hear that they are doing it because it is a tradition, I cringe.

To me, it is like a woman saying 'I am not going to learn to read or write, or receive any type of education, I will never vote or learn to drive, I will never work outside of the home, and when I reach menopause I would like to be thrown into a mental institution because it is tradition!' Because until VERY recent history, and presently in certain parts of the world this is the reality for women.

It really bothers me that women are expected to change their names, but men are looked down upon if they do. It is considered emasculating if a man were to change his name to his wife's, or if he were to hyphenate. There is still so much patriarchal agenda in the whole name change situation. I do have the desire to share a last name with my children, but my feminist conscience really has a problem with it.

All traditions are not the same, though. There are some traditions which have been carried on because they have great value for the people who partake in them (like baptisms), some traditions which may have positive/negative aspects, but have been continued because overall, they seem relatively innocuous (like changing a name?), and some traditions which have been discontinued because the negatives are much more than the positives (like refusing to educate women).

To say that traditional choices make you cringe, suggests that you see most, if not all, traditions as being bad. And they definitely are not all bad. Don't you personally celebrate ANY traditions? Thanksgiving? Christmas? birthdays?

 

[musey]

Date: 1/30/2009 2:40:06 PM
Author: WishfulThinking
By the way, I am not sure any of us can talk about tradition if we're married or getting married. I think it's bordering on ludicrous to make the obviously traditional and historically patriarchal decision to be married and nitpick about the name change issue. We make choices every single day; for those of us who are ardent feminists, some of those choices are going to be 'feminist choices,' and some of them are not. It's the nature of the world we live in. But that we have the choice is something to be happy about, at least. I am certainly in no position to judge someone else's personal decisions when it comes to marriage... especially as I am asking for the same in return.

Oh, but my decision to get married had nothing to do with tradition. I just came up with the idea of bonding myself to my boyfriend, all on my own. We came up with all these ideas, like we'd have a party and a little ceremony to make promises to each other, and maybe I could wear a white dress (it looks good on me! oh wait, that has something to do with an outdated idea of purity? who knew!). Oh we could also have rings to symbolize our bond (hey, I like jewelry!) and maybe since we'd be living together people could give us gifts for our house.

It was just coincidence that the government already had a legal contract for all the stuff we decided to do all on our own, with a few hundred years of religious tradition (wait, but I'm not religious... oh well!) behind it!!!

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 1/30/2009 1:58:05 PM
Author: CellarDoor
I don''t think that I mind some people''s reasons for changing their names - they hate their families, their husband''s name is much more aesthetically pleasing, they want to share a name with their children - but when I hear that they are doing it because it is a tradition, I cringe.

To me, it is like a woman saying ''I am not going to learn to read or write, or receive any type of education, I will never vote or learn to drive, I will never work outside of the home, and when I reach menopause I would like to be thrown into a mental institution because it is tradition!'' Because until VERY recent history, and presently in certain parts of the world this is the reality for women.

It really bothers me that women are expected to change their names, but men are looked down upon if they do. It is considered emasculating if a man were to change his name to his wife''s, or if he were to hyphenate. There is still so much patriarchal agenda in the whole name change situation. I do have the desire to share a last name with my children, but my feminist conscience really has a problem with it.

Yes, because we HAVE to keep our maiden name in order to prove to the world that we can read and write, or be allowed to go to SCHOOL and VOTE, or prove we can DRIVE (hehe questionable for some people

j/k), or CHOOSE where we want to work (staying at home with a family is WORK, believe me!!!), or prove that we''re still coherent after menopause...

Because I''m going announce to the WORLD (so I can go ahead and be judged, of course) that I''m stupid and incapable of taking care of myself, just because I''m going to become Mrs. FI''s last name. I guess I should have a cab waiting outside my wedding reception to take me to my house, since I won''t be able to drive myself, where I will then proceed to lost ALL my identity, start learning all the kids TV shows, get rid of all my going-out clothes and stock up on PJ''s and bathrobes and slippers, throw out my hairdryer since I won''t need it anymore, just go ahead and quit my job and try to have kids right away, since that''s all I''ll be capable of from then on...

(Did the sarcasm in that come out enough? I hope so.

) Ok, I''m done, I promise.

 

[all.of.the.above]

Date: 1/30/2009 2:49:38 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries

Date: 1/30/2009 1:58:05 PM
Author: CellarDoor
I don't think that I mind some people's reasons for changing their names - they hate their families, their husband's name is much more aesthetically pleasing, they want to share a name with their children - but when I hear that they are doing it because it is a tradition, I cringe.

To me, it is like a woman saying 'I am not going to learn to read or write, or receive any type of education, I will never vote or learn to drive, I will never work outside of the home, and when I reach menopause I would like to be thrown into a mental institution because it is tradition!' Because until VERY recent history, and presently in certain parts of the world this is the reality for women.

It really bothers me that women are expected to change their names, but men are looked down upon if they do. It is considered emasculating if a man were to change his name to his wife's, or if he were to hyphenate. There is still so much patriarchal agenda in the whole name change situation. I do have the desire to share a last name with my children, but my feminist conscience really has a problem with it.

Yes, because we HAVE to keep our maiden name in order to prove to the world that we can read and write, or be allowed to go to SCHOOL and VOTE, or prove we can DRIVE (hehe questionable for some people

j/k), or CHOOSE where we want to work (staying at home with a family is WORK, believe me!!!), or prove that we're still coherent after menopause...

Because I'm going announce to the WORLD (so I can go ahead and be judged, of course) that I'm stupid and incapable of taking care of myself, just because I'm going to become Mrs. FI's last name. I guess I should have a cab waiting outside my wedding reception to take me to my house, since I won't be able to drive myself, where I will then proceed to lost ALL my identity, start learning all the kids TV shows, get rid of all my going-out clothes and stock up on PJ's and bathrobes and slippers, throw out my hairdryer since I won't need it anymore, just go ahead and quit my job and try to have kids right away, since that's all I'll be capable of from then on...

(Did the sarcasm in that come out enough? I hope so.

) Ok, I'm done, I promise.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

Brilliant.

 

[Bia]

Date: 1/30/2009 2:49:33 PM
Author: musey

Oh, but my decision to get married had nothing to do with tradition. I just came up with the idea of bonding myself to my boyfriend, all on my own. We came up with all these ideas, like we'd have a party and a little ceremony to make promises to each other, and maybe I could wear a white dress (it looks good on me! oh wait, that has something to do with an outdated idea of purity? who knew!). Oh we could also have rings to symbolize our bond (hey, I like jewelry!) and maybe since we'd be living together people could give us gifts for our house.

It was just coincidence that the government already had a legal contract for all the stuff we decided to do all on our own, with a few hundred years of religious tradition (wait, but I'm not religious... oh well!) behind it!!!

BTW: I'm still laughing at that...

 

[Kelli]

Date: 1/30/2009 2:37:30 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries

Date: 1/30/2009 2:20:31 PM

Author: Kelli


In keeping your own name you are not representing your family''s heritage. You are representing your FATHER''s family''s heritage. How is that any more progressive than your husband''s? Should we all stamp our feet now and demand that we and our husbands take our mother''s maiden name instead? Because really, then we''re all just taking HER father''s name. How far back do we have to go to make you happy? Isn''t it much easier to say, ''It''s just a name?'' And for the record, I have no idea yet what I will do about my name. It''s hard to say what I''ll decide to do. But you need to settle down!

Hehehehe this makes me laugh.

Glad I could be of service.

Seriously though, I don''t understand any of the drama. I totally understand feminism, and it p''s me off more than anything when women AREN''T given choices. But the fact of the matter is, TRADITIONALLY the family has taken the husbands name, so in keeping my "family''s" name, I am only taking another one of the MAN''s names anyway. Sure it''s unfortunate, but who is gonna go back in time and change it all? My guess is no one. If we really wanna be progressive we could channel our energy into helping the people who still DON''T have equal rights!

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/30/2009 2:49:33 PM
Author: musey

Date: 1/30/2009 2:40:06 PM

Author: WishfulThinking

By the way, I am not sure any of us can talk about tradition if we''re married or getting married. I think it''s bordering on ludicrous to make the obviously traditional and historically patriarchal decision to be married and nitpick about the name change issue. We make choices every single day; for those of us who are ardent feminists, some of those choices are going to be ''feminist choices,'' and some of them are not. It''s the nature of the world we live in. But that we have the choice is something to be happy about, at least. I am certainly in no position to judge someone else''s personal decisions when it comes to marriage... especially as I am asking for the same in return.

Oh, but my decision to get married had nothing to do with tradition. I just came up with the idea of bonding myself to my boyfriend, all on my own. We came up with all these ideas, like we''d have a party and a little ceremony to make promises to each other, and maybe I could wear a white dress (it looks good on me! oh wait, that has something to do with an outdated idea of purity? who knew!). Oh we could also have rings to symbolize our bond (hey, I like jewelry!) and maybe since we''d be living together people could give us gifts for our house.


It was just coincidence that the government already had a legal contract for all the stuff we decided to do all on our own, with a few hundred years of religious tradition (wait, but I''m not religious... oh well!) behind it!!!

Haha!

We totally made up the concept too. Everyone decided to get all in a tizzy over it, but we''ve carried on anyways. We didn''t have the same convenient contract [well, sorta], but whatever we made it up anyways.

 

[fieryred33143]

It still cracks me up that all of this was over facebook.

Anyone else find that funny?

No, just me?

And if you pass judgment on women that change their name on facebook, then I''m glad you don''t have access to my Myspace page. The minute I found out I was pregnant I changed my background from my undergrad mascot to this huge obnoxious blinky that says "Due in July" with little fireworks shooting out of it.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 1/30/2009 3:20:58 PM
Author: fieryred33143
It still cracks me up that all of this was over facebook.

Anyone else find that funny?

No, just me?

And if you pass judgment on women that change their name on facebook, then I''m glad you don''t have access to my Myspace page. The minute I found out I was pregnant I changed my background from my undergrad mascot to this huge obnoxious blinky that says ''Due in July'' with little fireworks shooting out of it.

LMAO!!!

 

[musey]

Date: 1/30/2009 3:20:58 PM
Author: fieryred33143
It still cracks me up that all of this was over facebook.

Anyone else find that funny?

No, just me?

No, I''m with you. You know, after the whole "Um, what?? Are you SERIOUS?" thing has started to wear off. (I''m just beginning to get there.)

And if you pass judgment on women that change their name on facebook, then I''m glad you don''t have access to my Myspace page. The minute I found out I was pregnant I changed my background from my undergrad mascot to this huge obnoxious blinky that says ''Due in July'' with little fireworks shooting out of it.

BAHAHA!! Amazing!!!!!!

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 1/30/2009 3:20:58 PM
Author: fieryred33143
It still cracks me up that all of this was over facebook.


Anyone else find that funny?


No, just me?


And if you pass judgment on women that change their name on facebook, then I''m glad you don''t have access to my Myspace page. The minute I found out I was pregnant I changed my background from my undergrad mascot to this huge obnoxious blinky that says ''Due in July'' with little fireworks shooting out of it.

Yeah that cracks me up, too.

 

[cara]

Feminism is not just about choices. It is also about questioning one's motivations for choices, questioning the menu of available choices, and questioning the judgments passed on other people for their choices.ie:

Why do so many women 'choose' to take their husband's name? It isn't really a choice that can be divorced from its history: women as not being fully equal humans, needing male 'coverage' legally, transferring their care from father to husband. Especially interesting is that some quite patriarchal societies simply don't have the same naming convention, and women keep their birth names in marriage. So it is certainly a culturally specific tradition.

Why do kids get their father's last name? The parents don't make that 'choice' absent historical and social context either.

Why does the mother so often choose to be the stay-at-home parent? Is it biological instinct or lack of pay-parity in the work place or just personal 'choice'

Or why is it popular for parents to name their daughters unisex or outright traditionally male names but restrict their sons to unquestionably masculine names with no ambiguity? (Methinks there is something going on with that last one.)

 

[cara]

OK, one of my pet peeves is the argument that a woman changing to her husbands name is no worse than keeping her fathers name because both are names of MEN. While the name might of originated with her father, it is HER name from birth until marriage and is associated with her life. To change her name disconnects the pre-married woman from the post-married woman. Yes, its a tracking problem but a big one and the parity issue is also a problem for me. Men can usually be easily tracked by their names from birth until death, with no sudden naming transition marking their marital status, but not so for women.

Of course, one can make a ''choice'' to disconnect the two (or more) segments of one''s life with these different monikers, but is it really a choice made independent of all this social baggage? I mean, the only other instance I can think of people changing names to signify a new stage of life is when the pope takes a new name, and then it really is to signify a change has occured between the pre-pope human and the human that is now pope. Why should women undergo such a change at marriage (especially if there is no similar change required of men?)

Only good reason I can come up with is children combined with the logistical problems of hyphenation. Which are daunting enough for me not to judge women who change their names. OK, maybe a little since it is certainly a choice made not in a cultural vacuum. But I see it as a logistical choice with some cultural context unless they choose to explain otherwise.

 

[musey]

Date: 1/30/2009 3:19:55 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

Date: 1/30/2009 2:49:33 PM
Author: musey

Date: 1/30/2009 2:40:06 PM
Author: WishfulThinking
By the way, I am not sure any of us can talk about tradition if we''re married or getting married. I think it''s bordering on ludicrous to make the obviously traditional and historically patriarchal decision to be married and nitpick about the name change issue. We make choices every single day; for those of us who are ardent feminists, some of those choices are going to be ''feminist choices,'' and some of them are not. It''s the nature of the world we live in. But that we have the choice is something to be happy about, at least. I am certainly in no position to judge someone else''s personal decisions when it comes to marriage... especially as I am asking for the same in return.

Oh, but my decision to get married had nothing to do with tradition. I just came up with the idea of bonding myself to my boyfriend, all on my own. We came up with all these ideas, like we''d have a party and a little ceremony to make promises to each other, and maybe I could wear a white dress (it looks good on me! oh wait, that has something to do with an outdated idea of purity? who knew!). Oh we could also have rings to symbolize our bond (hey, I like jewelry!) and maybe since we''d be living together people could give us gifts for our house.

It was just coincidence that the government already had a legal contract for all the stuff we decided to do all on our own, with a few hundred years of religious tradition (wait, but I''m not religious... oh well!) behind it!!!

Haha!

We totally made up the concept too. Everyone decided to get all in a tizzy over it, but we''ve carried on anyways. We didn''t have the same convenient contract [well, sorta], but whatever we made it up anyways.

Wishful, you and I are such free-thinking and progressive women. People should really take their feminist cues from us.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 1/30/2009 2:20:31 PM
Author: Kelli

In keeping your own name you are not representing your family''s heritage. You are representing your FATHER''s family''s heritage. How is that any more progressive than your husband''s? Should we all stamp our feet now and demand that we and our husbands take our mother''s maiden name instead? Because really, then we''re all just taking HER father''s name. How far back do we have to go to make you happy? Isn''t it much easier to say, ''It''s just a name?'' And for the record, I have no idea yet what I will do about my name. It''s hard to say what I''ll decide to do. But you need to settle down!

This is exactly right and why women in Korea (which until recently wasn''t exactly considered a progressive society and still is male dominated in so many way) keep their last names when they get married. In honor of their father. Why is why I chose to keep my last name...as a tribute to a man who came to America to give his kids a better life.

 

[packrat]

I have a question..how did feminism start? Was it a group of women who got together and decided to rag on other women for things they did in their lives? Or was it some women who decided they should have the same rights and be treated equal to men and not be considered "things" anymore? Did they stand around and gripe and nitpick about crap or did they applaud other women for standing up for themselves, regardless? I took my husbands name. It''s tradition, I don''t have a problem with it. We''re starting our own traditions in our own family, made up of traditions from both sides of our families. Taking my husbands name doesn''t mean I''m not "me" anymore, and it doesn''t mean I''m not my dad''s daughter. I''ll always be daddy''s girl. When my husband teases me for making lists, I tell him, I''m a "Maidenname" honey, it''s what we do. It''s funny, but it really has nothing to do w/it, other than I got my list fetish from my dad. My Maiden name doesn''t make me who I am. My life and my choices made me who I am. I thought my Maiden name was sooo common and dumb..until I found myself dating a man who had the oddest last name. It''s misspelled and mispronounced all the time. I flat out told him I wasn''t taking his name, and I told him it was b/c it was weird. He looked hurt, but he said "Well, it''s not like I can force you to change it." Then I started laughing, b/c I was joking-I never had a problem w/taking his name. I would like to point out that he said "It''s not like I can force you to change it". If he would''ve tried to guilt me into it, knowing full well that I didn''t want to take it-what kind of a start does that give a relationship, seriously? It''s childish, and I married a big boy, not a child who sticks his lip out b/c he doesn''t get his way. My husband doesn''t FORCE me to do anything. He may not like some things, but if he tried to put his foot down about something that was clearly MY decision, regardless of if it''s taking his last name or cutting my hair, or the design of my eyeglasses, not only would he get a blank no-emotion stare, I''d have my foot so far up his backside he''d need a tow truck to get it out.

And correct me if I''m wrong, but doesn''t the whole concept of wedding rings harken back to "I OWN this woman"? Myself, I don''t understand "I''m my own woman, I''m not taking his last name b/c he doesn''t OWN me, but hey, look at my engagement ring, I''m betrothed to a man!" But that''s my opinion.

And about SAHM''s, I work part time. Husband and I discussed it way before we had kids that I would NOT work full time until they''re older. Nothing against moms working full time, this is just my choice. I''ve got 2 kids, and yes I spend a lot of time talking to other women about kids. Their kids, my kids, kids in general. Kids interest me. I like to talk about things that interest me. I don''t like to talk about say..coal mining or truck engines. They do not interest me. When my kids have been up all night vomiting or w/explosive diarrhea, I spend a lot of time talking about it. B/c I''m concerned. I want to figure out if it''s a bug, is it their teeth, etc. I don''t just call my BFF up and talk about my kids poop for lack of anything else to talk about. We spent a lot of time talking about her son last night who is 8 and having problems w/another boy in his class, trying to decide what the root of the problem is and how to fix it so her son feels better. Somehow when you''re a mom, talking all the time about a celebrity that spends more on a set of sheets for their bed than I make in a year, or the marriages that last as long as the time it takes me to get ready for work in the morning, really isn''t all that interesting. Yes my life centers around my family. But when you''re married and have kids, where SHOULD your priorities be? The bar? I''m fully capable of talking of other things..I love to read, I like the decorating shows, I have a lot of things I''m interested in-not just poop and vomit.

I''m all for sharing opinions, I like to be open minded and learn. I don''t like opinions to be stated as fact and for people to expect others to be open to their suggestions whilst remaining close minded and judgmental themselves.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 1/30/2009 4:58:01 PM
Author: packrat
I have a question..how did feminism start? Was it a group of women who got together and decided to rag on other women for things they did in their lives? Or was it some women who decided they should have the same rights and be treated equal to men and not be considered ''things'' anymore? Did they stand around and gripe and nitpick about crap or did they applaud other women for standing up for themselves, regardless? I took my husbands name. It''s tradition, I don''t have a problem with it. We''re starting our own traditions in our own family, made up of traditions from both sides of our families. Taking my husbands name doesn''t mean I''m not ''me'' anymore, and it doesn''t mean I''m not my dad''s daughter. I''ll always be daddy''s girl. When my husband teases me for making lists, I tell him, I''m a ''Maidenname'' honey, it''s what we do. It''s funny, but it really has nothing to do w/it, other than I got my list fetish from my dad. My Maiden name doesn''t make me who I am. My life and my choices made me who I am. I thought my Maiden name was sooo common and dumb..until I found myself dating a man who had the oddest last name. It''s misspelled and mispronounced all the time. I flat out told him I wasn''t taking his name, and I told him it was b/c it was weird. He looked hurt, but he said ''Well, it''s not like I can force you to change it.'' Then I started laughing, b/c I was joking-I never had a problem w/taking his name. I would like to point out that he said ''It''s not like I can force you to change it''. If he would''ve tried to guilt me into it, knowing full well that I didn''t want to take it-what kind of a start does that give a relationship, seriously? It''s childish, and I married a big boy, not a child who sticks his lip out b/c he doesn''t get his way. My husband doesn''t FORCE me to do anything. He may not like some things, but if he tried to put his foot down about something that was clearly MY decision, regardless of if it''s taking his last name or cutting my hair, or the design of my eyeglasses, not only would he get a blank no-emotion stare, I''d have my foot so far up his backside he''d need a tow truck to get it out.

And correct me if I''m wrong, but doesn''t the whole concept of wedding rings harken back to ''I OWN this woman''? Myself, I don''t understand ''I''m my own woman, I''m not taking his last name b/c he doesn''t OWN me, but hey, look at my engagement ring, I''m betrothed to a man!'' But that''s my opinion.

And about SAHM''s, I work part time. Husband and I discussed it way before we had kids that I would NOT work full time until they''re older. Nothing against moms working full time, this is just my choice. I''ve got 2 kids, and yes I spend a lot of time talking to other women about kids. Their kids, my kids, kids in general. Kids interest me. I like to talk about things that interest me. I don''t like to talk about say..coal mining or truck engines. They do not interest me. When my kids have been up all night vomiting or w/explosive diarrhea, I spend a lot of time talking about it. B/c I''m concerned. I want to figure out if it''s a bug, is it their teeth, etc. I don''t just call my BFF up and talk about my kids poop for lack of anything else to talk about. We spent a lot of time talking about her son last night who is 8 and having problems w/another boy in his class, trying to decide what the root of the problem is and how to fix it so her son feels better. Somehow when you''re a mom, talking all the time about a celebrity that spends more on a set of sheets for their bed than I make in a year, or the marriages that last as long as the time it takes me to get ready for work in the morning, really isn''t all that interesting. Yes my life centers around my family. But when you''re married and have kids, where SHOULD your priorities be? The bar? I''m fully capable of talking of other things..I love to read, I like the decorating shows, I have a lot of things I''m interested in-not just poop and vomit.

I''m all for sharing opinions, I like to be open minded and learn. I don''t like opinions to be stated as fact and for people to expect others to be open to their suggestions whilst remaining close minded and judgmental themselves.

LOL!

Yeah, maybe that''s why moms talk about their kids all the time. For the intellectuals here, you can liken it to a massive science project - except with all the books written, there is no definitive solution! You have to sit there and do the lab work yourself, lol.

To the OP, this is going to be the least of your worries as a married couple (the name, that is) so I hope you can figure out a way to work it out. Because lots of things with far more consequence are just up the road in your journey as husband and wife.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 1/30/2009 2:49:33 PM
Author: musey

Date: 1/30/2009 2:40:06 PM

Author: WishfulThinking

By the way, I am not sure any of us can talk about tradition if we''re married or getting married. I think it''s bordering on ludicrous to make the obviously traditional and historically patriarchal decision to be married and nitpick about the name change issue. We make choices every single day; for those of us who are ardent feminists, some of those choices are going to be ''feminist choices,'' and some of them are not. It''s the nature of the world we live in. But that we have the choice is something to be happy about, at least. I am certainly in no position to judge someone else''s personal decisions when it comes to marriage... especially as I am asking for the same in return.

Oh, but my decision to get married had nothing to do with tradition. I just came up with the idea of bonding myself to my boyfriend, all on my own. We came up with all these ideas, like we''d have a party and a little ceremony to make promises to each other, and maybe I could wear a white dress (it looks good on me! oh wait, that has something to do with an outdated idea of purity? who knew!). Oh we could also have rings to symbolize our bond (hey, I like jewelry!) and maybe since we''d be living together people could give us gifts for our house.


It was just coincidence that the government already had a legal contract for all the stuff we decided to do all on our own, with a few hundred years of religious tradition (wait, but I''m not religious... oh well!) behind it!!!

Hilarious! I''m going with this explanation from now on!

 

[Elmorton]

Just to add fuel to the fire re: facebook -

My facebook page reads Elmorton Hislastname. A friend of mine changed it while I was on my honeymoon (I gave her my password to upload photos and she took the liberty of changing my status and name, too). I hadn't really given much thought about what I'd do for FB, so I left it that way. Legally, my name is Elmorton Mylastname Hislastname.

My friend's FB page reads Hername HerLastname Hislastname. She is legally Hername Hermiddlename Hislastname.

So...which of us is the better feminist?

Answer: We're both pretty "hardcore" feminists. It's a large part of what we studied in school, and feminist theories have a lot to do with what both of us do in practice in our vocations.

Cara - loved your post. I haven't been liking how feminism has been discussed on this thread until you spoke up. In my field of study, to be a feminist means to be actively seeking out the voices that have been silenced, seek modes for those voices to speak, and to understand the motives of those who choose not to speak. But to describe feminists as women who are anti-traditionalist or describe anti-feminists as those who follow tradition is an extremely limiting (and IMO, false) view about what feminism is about.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 1/30/2009 3:54:30 PM
Author: cara
OK, one of my pet peeves is the argument that a woman changing to her husbands name is no worse than keeping her fathers name because both are names of MEN. While the name might of originated with her father, it is HER name from birth until marriage and is associated with her life. To change her name disconnects the pre-married woman from the post-married woman. Yes, its a tracking problem but a big one and the parity issue is also a problem for me. Men can usually be easily tracked by their names from birth until death, with no sudden naming transition marking their marital status, but not so for women.

Of course, one can make a ''choice'' to disconnect the two (or more) segments of one''s life with these different monikers, but is it really a choice made independent of all this social baggage? I mean, the only other instance I can think of people changing names to signify a new stage of life is when the pope takes a new name, and then it really is to signify a change has occured between the pre-pope human and the human that is now pope. Why should women undergo such a change at marriage (especially if there is no similar change required of men?)

Only good reason I can come up with is children combined with the logistical problems of hyphenation. Which are daunting enough for me not to judge women who change their names. OK, maybe a little since it is certainly a choice made not in a cultural vacuum. But I see it as a logistical choice with some cultural context unless they choose to explain otherwise.

Ditto-great post!

 

[princesss]

So many great posts.

Twinnie and Musey...oh gosh. Oh goodness. You guys crack me up. I completely adore you.

Cara, very interesting post. I think the problem with seeing an issue in your culture is that no matter what you do, you are still bound by the culture you take issue with! It is incredibly difficult to step out of that and make a choice not bound by the limitations of the culture you grew up in. So you have to decide what you''re comfortable with. And I think we''re all going to come up with different answers, which is the fun part about being alive right now. We get to see the ways other people decide to handle this issue, and sometimes (if we haven''t made the decision ourselves yet) we get to decide if we would do the same thing.

 

[basil]

Wow, this is an interesting thread!

I didn''t change my name for a lot of reasons that other people mentioned - I like my name as it is; I''m professionally identified by it; it''s easy to spell and pronounce; it''s common so it''s not easy to "google" me and track me; and my husband''s name is very ethnic and I don''t belong to that ethnicity, so I would have to explain to people multiple times per day why that was my name. But primarily, my reason was that my mother didn''t change her name even though my parents have been married 35 years, and so I never grew up with the expectation that I would change my name.

I''m not disappointed and I don''t judge women for wanting to change their name. I think a lot of the reasons people use are sometimes silly (i.e. the argument that teachers won''t be able to figure out who they are - teachers are pretty smart and it''s not an uncommon scenario), but I''m glad that we have the choice and I don''t begrudge those who choose differently from me.

It does disappoint me that so many men are upset that their wives don''t want to take their name, yet are horrified of the thought of changing their own name. If we were truly equal, then couples would be able to work out amongst themselves which name to take, or to keep separate names. That would be true choice - but the fact is that the third option (husband taking wife''s name) is not an option for most women.

The majority of men, including my own husband, even in liberal circles, would never ever dream of changing their name to their wife''s name. I imagine it''s primarily because of the surely negative reactions that they would experience, and secondarily because of the government making it even more difficult for a man to change his name than for a woman after marriage.

I think a lot of the time that a feminist makes a traditional choice (changing name, SAHM, etc.) and defends it as her own free will, a lot of people forget that the husband could have made a similar choice but didn''t. The options are not just SAHM vs. daycare. What about dad? Usually, dad never makes that decision.

Though women have come far, we''re not equal.

 

[jstarfireb]

For the hardcore feminists among us like myself, I highly recommend reading Jessica Valenti''s books. She runs the blog Feministing, and here''s an excerpt from Full Frontal Feminism regarding the name change. Her language is colloquial and a little vulgar, but her points are good:

"For the life of me, I will never understand why a woman today would change her name. It makes no sense whatsoever. You want future kids to have the same last name as you and your hubby? Hyphenate, b***h! Or do something, anything, but change your last name. It''s the ultimate buy-in of sexist bull***t. It epitomizes the idea that you are not your own person.

Eighty-one percent of women get married intending to change their last names, so clearly I''m of the minority opinion on this one. But seriously, where''s the logic here? It''s a pain in the ass to change your name (legally and all that), it represents an exchange of ownership (presumably dad''s last name to hubby''s), and you don''t get to have your last name anymore! I don''t know, maybe your last name is terrible and you can''t wait to change it. Still, it irks me. Maybe because so many woman still change their name without a second thought. As if we have to give in to the norms without a fight. So at the very least, please, if you get married, just think the last-name thing over. And besides, hyphenation is the new black."

Jessica Valenti, Full Frontal Feminism, Seal Press, 2007, pp 146-147

Incidentally, she is also against engagement rings. I personally am not, and I assume most of us are also not (otherwise we wouldn''t be on PS!). However, we have to acknowledge the rooting of this tradition in patriarchy just as the changing of names. Anyway, I''m posting this because I agree 100% and can''t say it better. It''s denial to say changing your name isn''t sexist, but it''s also denial to say wearing an engagement ring isn''t sexist too. We have to choose which traditions to keep and which to throw away, but at least we have to make a conscious choice. Just be aware and make a well thought-out choice that works for you...but don''t pretend the particular tradition isn''t sexist.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 1/30/2009 7:23:20 PM
Author: jstarfireb
For the hardcore feminists among us like myself, I highly recommend reading Jessica Valenti''s books. She runs the blog Feministing, and here''s an excerpt from Full Frontal Feminism regarding the name change. Her language is colloquial and a little vulgar, but her points are good:


''For the life of me, I will never understand why a woman today would change her name. It makes no sense whatsoever. You want future kids to have the same last name as you and your hubby? Hyphenate, b***h! Or do something, anything, but change your last name. It''s the ultimate buy-in of sexist bull***t. It epitomizes the idea that you are not your own person.


Eighty-one percent of women get married intending to change their last names, so clearly I''m of the minority opinion on this one. But seriously, where''s the logic here? It''s a pain in the ass to change your name (legally and all that), it represents an exchange of ownership (presumably dad''s last name to hubby''s), and you don''t get to have your last name anymore! I don''t know, maybe your last name is terrible and you can''t wait to change it. Still, it irks me. Maybe because so many woman still change their name without a second thought. As if we have to give in to the norms without a fight. So at the very least, please, if you get married, just think the last-name thing over. And besides, hyphenation is the new black.''


Jessica Valenti, Full Frontal Feminism, Seal Press, 2007, pp 146-147


Incidentally, she is also against engagement rings. I personally am not, and I assume most of us are also not (otherwise we wouldn''t be on PS!). However, we have to acknowledge the rooting of this tradition in patriarchy just as the changing of names. Anyway, I''m posting this because I agree 100% and can''t say it better. It''s denial to say changing your name isn''t sexist, but it''s also denial to say wearing an engagement ring isn''t sexist too. We have to choose which traditions to keep and which to throw away, but at least we have to make a conscious choice. Just be aware and make a well thought-out choice that works for you...but don''t pretend the particular tradition isn''t sexist.

Love

Feministing, but I think Jessica dropped the ball on this one. She''ll probably have some explaining to do on the subject considering her own engagement and upcoming marriage and I look forward to hearing her thoughts on it, but she''s arguably making a feminist no-no by getting married to begin with. Someone will always argue that point of view. Jessica and all the rest of us are more than welcome to share our own feelings on the matter, but she and the other editors of Feministing have ALWAYS and will continue to always support the right of women to make decisions for themselves. I''ve said it already and I will say it again: every day we make choices. The feminists among us especially weigh those choices in terms of their social and cultural significance and we choose something to do. The choice is not always an explicitly "feminist" choice, but exercising our right to choose is a feminist act in and of itself. Taken out of context that quote from Full Frontal sounds a lot harsher than it would if someone had consistently read her books and blog posts, I think.

TwinniePrincess, I completely agree. It''s not just the name change issue that is bound by culture. We are immersed in this world we live in, and every single one of the choices we make is situated in this context. If we say that women are not able to make a historically traditional decision about this issue, why should I wear high heels and make-up and be able to get away with upholding the hegemony of gendered beauty standards? I think "because I want to" is a great answer to that in a world in which I by and large have a choice when it comes to what I can wear. I won''t stand by and say that it''s a feminist *statement*, but I have some agency in this messed up culture of ours, and I plan to milk it for what it''s worth!

 

[princesss]

Date: 1/30/2009 8:16:49 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

TwinniePrincess, I completely agree. It''s not just the name change issue that is bound by culture. We are immersed in this world we live in, and every single one of the choices we make is situated in this context. If we say that women are not able to make a historically traditional decision about this issue, why should I wear high heels and make-up and be able to get away with upholding the hegemony of gendered beauty standards? I think ''because I want to'' is a great answer to that in a world in which I by and large have a choice when it comes to what I can wear. I won''t stand by and say that it''s a feminist *statement*, but I have some agency in this messed up culture of ours, and I plan to milk it for what it''s worth!

"Because I want to" has become my motto this year. I think that we have to use the agency we''ve been given, and make choices that we have thought about. I love discussions like this, because I feel like they''re eye-opening and challenging, and by challenging concepts that many people take for granted, we increase our agency. With each deliberate choice, we speak for ourselves and can help shape the world. BF''s mom chose not to change her name, and as a result she has a son who recognizes that it is a woman''s choice to be identified in whatever manner she chooses, just as it''s his choice to be identified however he wants. (Sidenote: I adore this about him and his family.)

BTW, there was a group of three of us that did a presentation on Gertrude Stein in skirts, make-up, and heels. It made me giggle. We were presenting on a woman who sought to change the way we read and write to bring a true feminine experience to the reader, and we completely submitted to hegemonic, patriarchal visions of beauty. And it was fun!

 

[sweetjettagirl04]

Date: 1/29/2009 2:10:26 PM
Author: princesss

Date: 1/29/2009 1:48:56 PM
Author: CellarDoor

Date: 1/28/2009 9:38:11 PM
Author: musey

Date: 1/28/2009 8:52:58 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 1/28/2009 12:52:14 PM
Author: CellarDoor
I don''t know if I am going to change my name. I never really put much thought into it, but now that the time is coming, I don''t see how I can change my name, it will just be too weird. Furthermore, I have found myself negatively judging my facebook friends who totally change their name on their facebook the night of their wedding to Their First Name His Last Name without even leaving a trace of their original name. I don''t want to hyphenate either, I may use my last name as my middle name, but there is no way that I am just getting rid of it.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! This is one of my pet peeves! Glad I am not the only one. I hate thinking, who the heck is this person, and why are they showing up on my feed? Grrrr!

/end threadjack

That''s not very fair. People who change their name shouldn''t be allowed to show their excitement by changing it on a social networking site right away? That sucks.

I changed mine the day of my wedding. I was sitting in the chair at the hair stylist waiting for my curls to set, and playing around on my iPhone. Took about 30 seconds to go and change my name, just because I was excited about it.

Why would people need to leave a trace of their original name? Maybe I''d feel differently if my maiden name had been more unique. Since it is extremely common, I felt little attachment to it as being an identifier for me. Besides, I''d been with my husband for so long at that point that nearly all of our friends had already been referring to me as Musey Marriedname for years.

I doubt many people have been confused as to who I was just because my name changed (and if they were, they probably don''t know me well enough to be my ''friend''

).

Besides, very, very little changed in my life when I got married. Having little things like a name change on facebook made it feel a bit more like a ''new'' married life!

I don''t understand why you would change your name a. before you even really were married and b. before the name change had actually even legally happened.

When people change their names immediately on their facebook, I wonder why they don''t just change their status to ''hEY LOOKEE I GOT ME A MAN. I definitely have a lot more respect for women who at least maintain their maiden name as a middle name. Sorry, but that''s just the way that I feel.

I really don''t understand why you don''t respect somebody choosing what they do with their own name, just because it''s not what you would do.

Personally, I plan on changing my name and dropping the name I have now. I don''t want to replace my middle name, because that name is a name my parents chose specifically for me, not one I just happened to be born into. My last name is very uncommon, and is misspelled and mispronounced all the time. I don''t want to have it be a second middle name, because it would be too much of a mouthful, and doesn''t accurately represent the person I am/will be. I will still be a part of my family no matter what my last name, so I don''t see what''s wrong with changing it.

I see changing names on sites like that as a sign that the person is really excited to be married. My friends all changed their names on that site the day they got married, with no sign of their maiden name on there. It made me smile to see it, because how excited about something do you have to be to take time out from your wedding day to change a silly website?

I just really don''t understand what''s not respectable about that.

Wow! This thread got interesting!

I am totally in the same mindset as princesss. I have no real attachment to my current last name. As it stands, no one knows where or how it really started. Most likely, it was a name that was "given" at the time my ancestors came over into the US, so our real last name is totally unknown. My current last name is supposedly Dutch, but it can''t be proven. It''s not like any name I''ve ever heard being associated as "dutch". Therefore, I have no interest in keeping it. There are no boy ancestors to carry on the name, but that''s not my concern. I have no desire to keep it as my middle name, as it doesn''t really go with what my new last name will be. My family is still my family, and my name doesn''t need to tie me to them. I would rather take my FI''s last name as it is rich in history and heritage, and it just plain sounds better to me than my current name.

Besides, after having a last name that is constantly mispronounced, or made fun of (in earlier school years), I''m more than happy to soon have a "normal" last name. I''m in a line of business that my name goes out to all my customers, up to 1000''s at a time, and having them mispronounce or totally butcher it really gets old. I can''t wait to be a Mrs., really, I can''t.

However, it''s not anyone''s place to cast judgement on another for their decision. Whatever the reason to keep or not to keep is a very personal one, and is not just done because it''s tradition all of the time.

 

[LaraOnline]

My maiden name is a construct, as much as my married name is a construct.
It is a label, and both names completely ignore the greater contribution that MOTHERS provide to their children.

Women in our society seem generally to have a higher agenda on marriage, children, and will make sacrifices and lifestyle changes - very large ones - to achieve those aims. Hence all those stay at home mums.

Women provide their bodies, their labour and generally the whole of their goodwill into providing the best for their children. And, yes, this very often means that that mothers will do what they can to be co-operative with the father, lionising the man who partners them partly as a means of keeping the family together, supporting the male in his career and financial goals.

I have put all my family money into our business, which largely depends on my husband''s skills and interests. A few years down the track, it is quite common even for my own family (feminists and career women all) to discuss my HUSBAND''S business, as if I had no financial or even day-to-day role in the company.

I know so many brainy women who have taken a supportive, 2IC role in their family, to allow the ''breadwinner'' to shine.
Very often, those men are not naturally made of better stuff than the woman, who finds herself washing the socks.

It is the hidden sacrifices of women that go unspoken in our society.

Keeping your father''s name doesn''t help address any of those issues - but it may send a subliminal message to your own partner that you will be a less supportive partner than the norm...?

 

[jstarfireb]

Wishful, I agree with a lot of your points as well as Jessica''s. I would also like to see how she talks about her engagement and marriage. In her book, she doesn''t necessarily argue against marriage as an institution, but she does speak out against the wedding industry, "bridezillas," etc.

You mention that feminists consider the social/cultural implications of their choices, and what I''m saying is that more people should do that! For the big, major life choices, I think it''s the responsible thing to do. And changing your name is a big choice that (like it or not) reflects one''s ideology. I totally support women''s right to choose whatever they want to do, even if one of the options is more "feminist" than the other, as long as they think it through. Heck, I chose the "anti-feminist" act of accepting and wearing an engagement ring. But I thought it through and decided it was what I really wanted. What I don''t like is the complacency of women who say "I''m getting married now...guess it''s time to change my name." Give all the options some real consideration and make an active choice...exercise the right to choose that our feminist sisters fought and are still fighting for!

 

[trillionaire]

My roomie and I were talking about this the other day. She said that in Ethiopian culture, wives do not change their name, and neither do husbands. Children are named, and the father''s first name becomes the last name of the children, kind of more like the Biblical, Susie, son of Thomas, tradition.

So Susie Smith marries Robert Jones, and the kids are ____ Robert. Crazy, because everyone has a different last name, and the mother is not ''included'' in the kids name. Maybe the mom''s name could be a middle name, but I think that many Ethiopians do not have middle names, I know my roomie doesn''t...

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 1/30/2009 8:45:43 PM
Author: sweetjettagirl04

Date: 1/29/2009 2:10:26 PM

Author: princesss

Date: 1/29/2009 1:48:56 PM

Author: CellarDoor

Date: 1/28/2009 9:38:11 PM

Author: musey

Date: 1/28/2009 8:52:58 PM

Author: trillionaire

Date: 1/28/2009 12:52:14 PM

Author: CellarDoor

I don't know if I am going to change my name. I never really put much thought into it, but now that the time is coming, I don't see how I can change my name, it will just be too weird. Furthermore, I have found myself negatively judging my facebook friends who totally change their name on their facebook the night of their wedding to Their First Name His Last Name without even leaving a trace of their original name. I don't want to hyphenate either, I may use my last name as my middle name, but there is no way that I am just getting rid of it.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! This is one of my pet peeves! Glad I am not the only one. I hate thinking, who the heck is this person, and why are they showing up on my feed? Grrrr!

/end threadjack

That's not very fair. People who change their name shouldn't be allowed to show their excitement by changing it on a social networking site right away? That sucks.


I changed mine the day of my wedding. I was sitting in the chair at the hair stylist waiting for my curls to set, and playing around on my iPhone. Took about 30 seconds to go and change my name, just because I was excited about it.


Why would people need to leave a trace of their original name? Maybe I'd feel differently if my maiden name had been more unique. Since it is extremely common, I felt little attachment to it as being an identifier for me. Besides, I'd been with my husband for so long at that point that nearly all of our friends had already been referring to me as Musey Marriedname for years.

I doubt many people have been confused as to who I was just because my name changed (and if they were, they probably don't know me well enough to be my 'friend'

).


Besides, very, very little changed in my life when I got married. Having little things like a name change on facebook made it feel a bit more like a 'new' married life!

I don't understand why you would change your name a. before you even really were married and b. before the name change had actually even legally happened.


When people change their names immediately on their facebook, I wonder why they don't just change their status to 'hEY LOOKEE I GOT ME A MAN. I definitely have a lot more respect for women who at least maintain their maiden name as a middle name. Sorry, but that's just the way that I feel.

I really don't understand why you don't respect somebody choosing what they do with their own name, just because it's not what you would do.


Personally, I plan on changing my name and dropping the name I have now. I don't want to replace my middle name, because that name is a name my parents chose specifically for me, not one I just happened to be born into. My last name is very uncommon, and is misspelled and mispronounced all the time. I don't want to have it be a second middle name, because it would be too much of a mouthful, and doesn't accurately represent the person I am/will be. I will still be a part of my family no matter what my last name, so I don't see what's wrong with changing it.


I see changing names on sites like that as a sign that the person is really excited to be married. My friends all changed their names on that site the day they got married, with no sign of their maiden name on there. It made me smile to see it, because how excited about something do you have to be to take time out from your wedding day to change a silly website?


I just really don't understand what's not respectable about that.

Wow! This thread got interesting!


I am totally in the same mindset as princesss. I have no real attachment to my current last name. As it stands, no one knows where or how it really started. Most likely, it was a name that was 'given' at the time my ancestors came over into the US, so our real last name is totally unknown. My current last name is supposedly Dutch, but it can't be proven. It's not like any name I've ever heard being associated as 'dutch'. Therefore, I have no interest in keeping it. There are no boy ancestors to carry on the name, but that's not my concern. I have no desire to keep it as my middle name, as it doesn't really go with what my new last name will be. My family is still my family, and my name doesn't need to tie me to them. I would rather take my FI's last name as it is rich in history and heritage, and it just plain sounds better to me than my current name.


Besides, after having a last name that is constantly mispronounced, or made fun of (in earlier school years), I'm more than happy to soon have a 'normal' last name. I'm in a line of business that my name goes out to all my customers, up to 1000's at a time, and having them mispronounce or totally butcher it really gets old. I can't wait to be a Mrs., really, I can't.


However, it's not anyone's place to cast judgement on another for their decision. Whatever the reason to keep or not to keep is a very personal one, and is not just done because it's tradition all of the time.

I am not a feminist. I don't care if you change your name, or why you did or didn't. I also don't care how excited people are about being married, lol, if I am being honest.

I went to an all girls high school, and I know people by the names that I met them with. I will probably never met your new husband, I will probably never know your new name. I would like people to acknowledge that FB is a networking site, and I can't FIND YOU if you change your NAME! So leave a trace of your former identity, or you will be lost to me forever and ever!!!

That is my selfish request. I like to reconnect with friends, and all this name changin' is gettin' in the way. It's almost enough to turn me back into a feminazi, because I don't have to DEAL with these issues with my guy friends! Shesh! It's purely practical people, so don't start taking it all personal.

ETA:
For me, I never thought about changing my name. One day, SO said it was important to him, so I thought about it. I don't care, and he does, so I'll probably change it. Feminism and tradition be damned, relationships are about compromise, and if both people can be made happy, great. If he didn't care about me taking his name, I probably wouldn't, but because I am lazy and would forgo the hassle. Were not having kids, so that's not an issue. I will also probably continue to use my maiden name professionally. I kind of like the idea of having separate public and private names. It seems romantic and intimate.