I STRONGLY support transgender people's existence and freedoms ... and ...

[kenny]

That’s fine Kenny, as long as you are happy being a cis man? Funny how one NEVER hears that expression, isn’t it?

The term cis woman is demeaning to ACTUAL women, I’m afraid.

I'm not unhappy or happy being a cis man.
It's just wast is true; it's what I am.
No biggie.
Guess I'm just not a delicate and looking for anything I can take offense to.

I'm gay, but that doesn't mean I self identify as a women.
So go ahead, call me a cis man.
I'm honestly puzzled why you'd write: "That’s fine Kenny, as long as you are happy being a cis man? Funny how one NEVER hears that expression, isn’t it?"

For some reason did you assume I'd be offended by being called what I actually am?
Go ahead and call me a two-armed person, or a guy who walks.
How can what is true be offensive?

Per the widely-agreed-to definition of cis, that's what I am.
I identify as the secks on my birth certificate.
There is nothing negative or positive about that.
It's just the facts, ma'am.

I'm honestly astonished that some cis women consider the term demeaning.
Neither trans or cis are derogatory terms, unless used by one of the many haters today.
The two terms define the actual, true, real difference between two groups, in this case competing in sports.

But the most important thing regarding using the terms in this thread ... identifying each group was germane to the topic being addressed here.

 

[Snowdrop13]

I'm not unhappy or happy being a cis man.
It's just wast is true; it's what I am.
No biggie.
Guess I'm just not a delicate and looking for anything I can take offense to.

I'm gay, but that doesn't mean I self identify as a women.
So go ahead, call me a cis man.
I'm honestly puzzled why you'd write: "That’s fine Kenny, as long as you are happy being a cis man? Funny how one NEVER hears that expression, isn’t it?"

For some reason did you assume I'd be offended by being called what I actually am?
Go ahead and call me a two-armed person, or a guy who walks.
How can what is true be offensive?

Per the widely-agreed-to definition of cis, that's what I am.
I identify as the secks on my birth certificate.
There is nothing negative or positive about that.
It's just the facts, ma'am.

I'm honestly astonished that some cis women consider the term demeaning.
Neither trans or cis are derogatory terms, unless used by one of the many haters today.
The two terms define the actual, true, real difference between two groups, in this case competing in sports.

But the most important thing regarding using the terms in this thread ... identifying each group was germane to the topic being addressed here.

Have you ever learned any science, Kenny? My early experience of cis/trans terms came from learning Latin, but also chemistry.

Cis means “on the same side” and trans “on the opposite side” when referring to stereoisomers of the same molecule. So slight structural differences of the SAME thing. Can’t apply that to sex, sorry.

And I’m saying it again, you never, ever hear the term “cis man”. Maybe you could reflect a bit about why that is.

 

[kenny]

..

And I’m saying it again, you never, ever hear the term “cis man”. Maybe you could reflect a bit about why that is.

As a group, men average stronger than women.
Then there's that sports thing.

The first of the follow two is much less likely to occur than the second ...

1. A trans woman wanting to compete in sports against cis women.
2. A trans man wanting to compete in sports agains cis men.

Perhaps that has something to do with why there are way less news and publicity about cis men.

On a separate, but related, note ...
Have men horribly discriminated against women for-like-ever?
Yes!
Does that have anything to do about the CNN story?
No.

Oh, and no, I haven't learn any science.
My pastor says science is of the devil.
I remain chaste and pure so I can go to heaven.

 

[LightBright]

That’s fine Kenny, as long as you are happy being a cis man? Funny how one NEVER hears that expression, isn’t it?

The term cis woman is demeaning to ACTUAL women, I’m afraid.

The term cisgender was made up in the 1990s to promote the idea that there is an opposite to transgender. There is not.

We are all the same people, eg defined by biological sex, which can be empirically reinforced by looking at chromosome and gametes.

The Olympics and other competitive sports historically matched empirical biology with sex categories. They tested chromosomes and hormones. This was for fairness to WOMEN.

Somehow modern gender ideology convinced competitive sports to abandon empirical testing for whatever the athlete declares. This disadvantages WOMEN.

This allows a self selected group of men to be permitted to outcompete women because they choose to.

Subjective measurement should be banned from competetive sports. Records are being broken, scholarships, medals, prizes lost, and girls/women injured out of deference to a small, shameless category of males.

I’m totally open to Trans people being in non-competitive fun and social sports. No problem there.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

That’s fine Kenny, as long as you are happy being a cis man? Funny how one NEVER hears that expression, isn’t it?

The term cis woman is demeaning to ACTUAL women, I’m afraid.

I had to Google that as never heard of it before

 

[Matata]

Somehow modern gender ideology convinced competitive sports to abandon empirical testing for whatever the athlete declares. This disadvantages WOMEN.

This allows a self selected group of men to be permitted to outcompete women because they choose to.

Subjective measurement should be banned from competetive sports. Records are being broken, scholarships, medals, prizes lost, and girls/women injured out of deference to a small, shameless category of males.

You've painted trans women with a broad brush. Gender dysphoria isn't a choice. Trans people don't "self-select" for gender dysphoria. They don't choose to go through psychological and hormone therapy for the purpose of outcompeting cis women. They do it to try to come to terms with the discomfort they feel between their gender and the sex they were assigned at birth. Their suicide rate is approximately 44%.

Trans women do not compete just to beat cis women. It's a stretch to think that trans people undergo hormone therapy only for a chance to win at sports. If there are people who do so, they aren't trans.

Those who undergo partial or full surgery do not go through the rigors of that particular type of body modification just to compete against and beat cis women.

Trans women do not always win the events in which they compete.

Your choice of the word "shameless" to describe trans women indicates a prejudice against those with gender dysphoria and/or the trans community who are always at risk of harm/death by transphobic people. The current administration has enacted policies with the express intent of erasing trans people and the discord about their participation in sports is one facet used to justify that erasure.

 

[Matata]

That’s fine Kenny, as long as you are happy being a cis man? Funny how one NEVER hears that expression, isn’t it?

The term cis woman is demeaning to ACTUAL women, I’m afraid.

We don't hear the term cis man much outside of the trans community because, relative to this particular discussion, they aren't yet seen as a threat to men in competitive sports.

Cisgender is a clinical term used to describe people who are not trans.

It is your opinion, to which you are entitled, that cis is demeaning to women but your opinion is not fact. How many women are there who are upset that their sex and gender are the same and that they are not trans.

 

[kenny]

We don't hear the term cis man much outside of the trans community because, relative to this particular discussion, they aren't yet seen as a threat to men in competitive sports.

Cisgender is a clinical term used to describe people who are not trans.

It is your opinion, to which you are entitled, that cis is demeaning to women but your opinion is not fact. How many women are there who are upset that their sex and gender are the same and that they are not trans.

Thanks Matata.
You spelled it out better than I did.
Your first paragraph was so obvious that I felt it went without saying (typing).
Clearly not.

Maybe coming from a woman, instead of a man, they won't get 'triggered'.
Cause, ya know, there's no such thing as womansplaining.

Perhaps the reason some cis women are offended when called what they simply are, cis women, is because they associate cis with that whole icky gender and trans revolution; they never had to face that or even encounter it back in the 1950s when America was still "GREAT".
Honestly, the offense taken in this thread surprised and astonished the hell out of me.
But hey, people vary.

In the not so distant past being cis it was universally assumed to be the only possibility, so seeing it spelled out was an unwelcome jolt.
After all, EVERYONE was assumed to be their birth certificate gender/sex.

The times are a changing.
But it's still adjustment time for many in countries, and some in the "developed" countries.
Many countries, for example Afghanistan, are stuck clinging to the ancient past, and will perhaps never advance, because of, you guessed it ... religion.

To them, being called cis is like ....

 

[missy]

I support people for being who they are. There is no wrong when it comes to this.

I personally know people who feel they were born in the wrong body. Who feel a mismatch between their internal sense of gender and the sex they were assigned at birth. I also know individuals whose gender identity falls outside of or between male and female. Our niece on my husband’s side is non binary. . It’s already so darn hard for them not to fall within societal “norms”. I absolutely know it’s real the way they feel. And I completely support them to be who they are.


To answer Kenny’s question. I don’t think if one has xy chromosomes they should be allowed to compete against xx. But I get it’s not fair either way. Unfortunately life is rarely fair. But I agree with you Kenny on this point.

 

[kenny]

... But I agree with you Kenny on this point.

Careful missy.
You're gonna get yourself canceled.

 

[missy]

Careful missy.
You might get yourself canceled.

I’ve never cared about that. Never. I sure wouldn’t be sharing my other views here if I did. The only thing I care about is being on the side of what’s fairest and true. I am always on the side of truth and good. . Always

Is life unfair? Hell yes
Is life rarely black and white? Hell yes.
Shades of gray but I always stand for what I believe to be fairest
Often imperfect but I (we) do the best I (we) can

 

[missy]

I recommend this book

“Gender Queer: A Memoir”


For everyone who really wants to understand

 

[kenny]

... I don’t think if one has xy chromosomes they should be allowed to compete against xx. But I get it’s not fair either way. Unfortunately life is rarely fair. ...

I agree.

Allowing trans women to compete in sports against cis women is unfair to the cis women, but not allowing trans women to compete is not fair to them.
So, what should be done?
Whom should we be unfair to?

Since fairness for all is not possible, I'd say let's be fair to the larger group.
Then we're unfair to fewer.
Not perfect, but the least-wrong compromise.

I'm not going to get into a p1ssing contest over what percentage of women are trans, but can anyone honestly claim it's 50 50?

 

[missy]

I agree.

Allowing trans women to compete in sports against cis women is unfair to the cis women, but not allowing trans women to compete is not fair to them.
So, what should be done?
Whom should we be unfair to?

Since fairness for all is impossible, I's say be fair to the larger group.

I'm not going to get into a p1ssing contest over what percentage of women are trans, but can anyone honestly claim it's 50 50?

I can’t answer this but agree it’s never fair to all
Many here adhere to the concept of “the greater good for most”

As for me personally, sometimes I agree with the above sentiment and sometimes I don’t.
It depends
Again I’m always on the side of what’s most fair
There are rarely absolutes in life

 

[kenny]

... The only thing I care about is being on the side of what’s fairest and true. I am always on the side of truth and good. . Always
...

+1
However, I add a caveat.
I'm on the side of what I perceive as truth and good.

I guarantee that others have different versions.
Honestly, my own perception has varied over my life.

 

[Tartansparkles]

I prefer not to be referred to as a cis women because I am a woman. I do not feel there is the need for the extra level of categorisation (cis) even within a sporting context. I am a woman, a trans woman is a trans woman.

On the flip side, I also object to where the categorisation of women is being removed, for example, people who give birth or people who menstrate, there is only one type of person who gives birth or menstrates and that is a woman. I don't think I've ever heard of a 'person who has prostate cancer'. This adds to my feeling that women are being disproportionately affected by these linguistic changes where the experience of women is presented as gender neutral while the experience of men is not.

This is not taking offense for the sake of taking offense, this is because I believe the rights of women are being eroded. The rights of women and trans women should be equally respected but in my country it is beginning to feel like some groups are more equal than others. (Scotland has recently had a number of high profile cases involving trans women and the prison estate, the provision of rape crisis services and currently an industrial tribunal over the provision of single-sex changing rooms for NHS staff.).

My opinion on this matter may be different to the majority of those on PS but that does not mean I am not allowed to hold that opinion. In the sporting context, trans men and women should be allowed to compete with other trans athletes.

 

[Matata]

In the not so distant past being cis it was universally assumed to be the only possibility, so seeing it spelled out was an unwelcome jolt.
After all, EVERYONE was assumed to be their birth certificate gender/sex.

I don’t think if one has xy chromosomes they should be allowed to compete against xx.

Kenny, you and I are probably in perfect agreement about the ills the R word has wrought on humankind. It demonizes people who don't fit the binary model as well as anyone who doesn't fit the constraints of each sect.

Missy, nature is complicated. Intersex people have similar issues competing in athletics as trans people. Caster Semenya is the poster child for that. Assigned female at birth and raised as a female, she has xy chromosome, internal testes, and no uterus. Because she has testes, she's been able to "father" children. She considers herself a woman. She's been subjected to humiliating medical exams and has fought for many years to be allowed to compete without taking testosterone lowering drugs.

The ethics of making Semenya as well as all females take drugs to lower their athletic ability so they can compete with females who may not have that natural ability is still an unresolved issue particularly in light of how many athletes still engage in doping to enhance performance. There are athletes born with other genetic variations that give them an edge in their sport and they are not required to modify themselves in order to compete. It will be interesting to see how these issues evolve and how they are addressed.

Interesting article on the ethics re: Semenya from 2019. She has had many legal battles since then.

Ten ethical flaws in the Caster Semenya decision on intersex in sport

Athlete Caster Semenya will need to take hormone-lowering agents, or have surgery, if she wishes to continue her career in her chosen events. But the decision to ban her is flawed on many grounds.

theconversation.com

 

[Matata]

I prefer not to be referred to as a cis women because I am a woman. I do not feel there is the need for the extra level of categorisation (cis) even within a sporting context. I am a woman, a trans woman is a trans woman.

The term "cisgender," meaning someone whose gender identity aligns with the sex they were assigned at birth, was coined in 1994 by Dana Defosse in a Usenet newsgroup about transgender topics, aiming to provide a non-marginalizing term for non-transgender individuals. (Google AI)

I suspect the way language is evolving in this way is because those who object to the idea of trans people can't wrap their heads around the fact that a biological xx female can be a trans man and a biological xy man can be a trans female. The argument I hear most often against trans people is that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and anything else is wrong, disgusting, unnatural, etc. because they do not understand or reject that gender and biological sex are different things. Gender and sex have been used interchangeably for as long as I've been alive so it's understandable that there's difficulty for some to accept or understand that those words carry different meanings now that it has become more socially acceptable for those who are "different" to come out of their respective closets.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that women's rights are being eroded and the fight for equality and even agency over our bodies remains constant. Because those and other issues are similar to those in the LGBTQ+ community my hope is that, rather than fighting separately we can fight together.

 

[kenny]

Interesting how the natural biology of some people prevents them from fitting comfortably in any of our jars.

A culture embracing fairness sure does make this sorting humans into neat categories problematic

What a mess!

 

[Matata]

Interesting how the natural biology of some people prevents them from fitting comfortably in any of our jars.

A culture embracing fairness sure does make this sorting humans into neat categories problematic

What a mess!

Imagine what it'll be like when interplanetary neighbors finally reveal themselves especially if they're ambisexual like the Gethens in one of my fav sci fi books, The Left Hand of Darkness. Gethens adopt sexual attributes once per month and can be either male or female. Mothers who bear children one cycle can become their fathers the next. It makes the current complex situation on this planet look like a piece of cake

 

[kenny]

Interesting how the natural biology of some people prevents them from fitting comfortably in any of our jars.

Too bad we're so jarring.

 

[missy]

Kenny, you and I are probably in perfect agreement about the ills the R word has wrought on humankind. It demonizes people who don't fit the binary model as well as anyone who doesn't fit the constraints of each sect.

Missy, nature is complicated. Intersex people have similar issues competing in athletics as trans people. Caster Semenya is the poster child for that. Assigned female at birth and raised as a female, she has xy chromosome, internal testes, and no uterus. Because she has testes, she's been able to "father" children. She considers herself a woman. She's been subjected to humiliating medical exams and has fought for many years to be allowed to compete without taking testosterone lowering drugs.

The ethics of making Semenya as well as all females take drugs to lower their athletic ability so they can compete with females who may not have that natural ability is still an unresolved issue particularly in light of how many athletes still engage in doping to enhance performance. There are athletes born with other genetic variations that give them an edge in their sport and they are not required to modify themselves in order to compete. It will be interesting to see how these issues evolve and how they are addressed.

Interesting article on the ethics re: Semenya from 2019. She has had many legal battles since then.

Ten ethical flaws in the Caster Semenya decision on intersex in sport

Athlete Caster Semenya will need to take hormone-lowering agents, or have surgery, if she wishes to continue her career in her chosen events. But the decision to ban her is flawed on many grounds.

theconversation.com

It's very sad with no easy or completely fair solution
I definitely don't agree with the last suggestion that female athletes should take testosterone to even the playing field.
I also wouldn't take hormone blocking drugs but I understand the dilemma



Thank you for sharing the article. Some excellent points. Such a challenging situation

 

[LightBright]

My choice of the term Self-select is not directed at the choice to be trans.

I believe Trans women choose to compete as women because they feel it accurately represents who they are. Some successful Transwomen in sports were athletes before they transitioned or transitioned while they became athletes. None that I know of transitioned to compete with women. They transitioned to be themselves and to accurately represent themselves, but that leaves them with only one sports category.

Trans women (and women) in competitive sports compete to beat other women. They do not compete for any other reason. Otherwise, why compete? It’s hard. Anyone competes to dominate, crush it, and win. Please show me some Trans female athletes that work under a coach, who say they only compete for fun or so they can be included in the social scene.

Women and our competitive accomplishments are being erased by this practice. Look at the records being broken by Transgender girls. Look up who the #1 ranking California high school girl in the triple jump. She just set a record eight feet better than the closest competitor.

Track and field, swimming, Volleyball, MMA, cycling, boxing and more, all have trans athletes in women’s categories. Records are being set. Women are getting hit in the face. Even Martina Navratilova is speaking out and she hates “R word”.

When athletes are allowed to self-identify and go into girls/womens sports they get to be on a podium and celebrate their accomplishments which are sometimes not physically possible in the biological female category. Transgender athletes with these records get to take college scholarships away from non Trans girls who otherwise can’t afford that college. In Third World countries, winning at sports can be extremely important to get yourself and your coaches and even your village out of poverty. 46.xy biological males like the person mentioned in the article above (who last I checked had won 30 straight 800s in track) are sought out instead of biological women. Coaches and sports administrations applaud this or quit.

My use of the term shameless could have been better chosen. It’s better to use that term for coaches and adults who tell girls and women we need to celebrate and embrace people in our sports who can outcompete us or injure us easily. There was a video going around showing a college track competition, where a trans woman whose spikes failed on the indoor track somehow still beat her competition. IMO this is not a compassion and kindness issue, it’s a fairness issue.

When coaches, NCAA, Olympics take advantage of weaker and disadvantaged people (women, because of biological sex differences and the attitudes of men) to gain things, what is that called?

Trans athletes (and their teams) take medals, records, safety, and prize money away from people who do not have a choice to switch categories. Girls cannot choose an easier competitive situation. All they can do is boycott. This is seen by some as erasing women from their own sports categories.

 

[Matata]

When coaches, NCAA, Olympics take advantage of weaker and disadvantaged people (women, because of biological sex differences and the attitudes of men) to gain things, what is that called?

All athletes are taken advantage of because their coach's goal is to win. Coaches don't recruit mediocre athletes but they do recruit students with poor to mediocre academic performance who have potential to be great athletes.

There is nothing noble about elite athletics; it's a racket. I worked in the Athletic Dept. of an NCAA Division I school with coaches of both men's and women's sports who were ranked #1 coaches in the US and whose respective teams won many championships and a lot of their athletes went on to earn their living as professional athletes. I worked two Olympic trials that we hosted, met many nationally & world ranked athletes and was privy to what goes on behind the scenes and it isn't for the faint of heart.

To their coaches athletes are pieces of meat or for a less brutal description, thoroughbred horses. They are commodities. Pampered, indulged, drug enhanced, weighed often, diets monitored, constant body fat measurements, and presssure to be a bit faster, a bit more nimble, a bit more more in order to stay eligible for competition. Eyes on the prize -- college championships and the holy grail, a professional sports contract and/or Olympic medal. Females can experience amenorrhea due to keeping body fat content so low in certain sports. Athletes who compete at that level are also subject to heart and joint issues and age out of their competitive ability earlier than one would think considering that they're supposed to be in peak health due to their training and diet regimen. Sometimes their "health" kills them.

The stories I could tell....

 

[Rockdiamond]

Trump administration pauses $175M in funding to UPenn over trans athlete policy

The University of Pennsylvania made national headlines in the 2021-22 school year when Lia Thomas, a trans athlete, competed on its women's swim team.

www.nbcnews.com

So......while we're discussing swimming, this is being used as an excuse to withhold funding. Not sports funding. General funding
Yipee- no cancer research. Clinical trials. Ending these doesn't matter because....thank god no trans women are swimming...
Shiny object..
When I say "Don't look behind the curtain" it's a reference to The Wizard of Oz

 

[LightBright]

Rockdiamond, yes, there are multiple emotionally charged “specific issues” around which we are told it’s permissible that our previously held civil rights may be trampled or denied.

The adoption of “sacred ideas” that cannot be challenged empowers the authorities and their enforcers to limit democratic civil discussion and back and forth negotiations.

Claim the authorities make : we are protecting a right/idea/group, but actually the idea is being used to control and enforce, and it tramples other rights.

Good point for you to bring this up.

 

[kenny]

and

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

i got curious and thought i wonder what is happening in cricket ?
who even knew they played cricket in Canada ??

Rules for transgender international cricketers narrowed | cricket.com.au

New regulations prompted by a case of an Australian-born Canadian player will tightly restrict...

www.cricket.com.au

and in England
im not a fan of the Guardian but its all i could find

ECB bans transgender women from top two tiers of women’s domestic cricket

Transgender women will be unable to feature in the top two tiers of the new women’s domestic structure or the women’s Hundred, the ECB has announced

www.theguardian.com

i think this is more than fair

and in rugby
this has to be all about safety in such a high contact sport

Transgender Guidelines | World Rugby

World Rugby guidelines on transgender.

www.world.rugby

 

[telephone89]

John Oliver did an ***amazing*** show about this. HBO Last Week Tonight from April 6. Please watch.

 

[missy]

John Oliver did an ***amazing*** show about this. HBO Last Week Tonight from April 6. Please watch.

“

Transgender Fact Checker For John Oliver Showed Obvious Bias, Purposely Misrepresented Information​

The fact-checker for Last Week Tonight is a trans-identifying male named DM "Dee" Brent.

In other words, the person tasked with verifying whether women’s concerns about fairness and safety are "based in fact" is someone with a personal stake in denying those concerns altogether. That's like hiring a lobbyist for Big Tobacco to fact-check a segment on lung cancer.”