I STRONGLY support transgender people's existence and freedoms ... and ...

[kenny]

... and ...

Snip:
"A January New York Times/Ipsos poll found that 79% of Americans — including 67% of Democrats — said they believed female transgender athletes should not be allowed to play on women’s sports teams. A Pew Research poll released last month found that 66% of Americans favor laws that require transgender girls and women to play on the teams of the gender they were assigned at birth.

The same poll also found that 56% of Americans favor laws that prevent discrimination against transgender Americans."

Source:

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/09/politics/gavin-newsom-democrats-trans-athletes/index.html

I support EVERY other trans-related topic/concern/issue that I am aware of.
But IMO it is not fair that women without the male-advantage (however you define that) have to compete in sports with others who do have the male-advantage.

Cancel me, put me on ignore, move me into one of your different jars.
No worries.
I speak out for what I feel is right.
I won't go along with what "my tribe" forces on me if it doesn't feel right.

Overall, it's best to be true to one's self.
Over 60 years ago I gave up on trying to be popular.
Early on my brain wiring accomodated rejection from society, church, peers, school, even immediate family for being gay.
Six decades later I'm at peace with, being different.

I'm not transphobic.
But I am unfairness-phobic.

 

[kenny]

About fairness ...

One could argue that I'm not being fair to women with the male-advantage.
Why should they not able to compete, at all?
Not fair.

Then perhaps a third category of athletes is called for.
In boxing they have categories for weight as it would be unfair to put a 100 lb guy in the ring with a 300 lb guy.
In golfing they have "handicaps" (unfortunately un-woke word choice).

Fairness is an honorable pursuit, if and when possible.
One thing parents have to teach their children is, sometimes life is not fair.

 

[Matata]

I'm ok letting sports organizations at every level of school, amateur, and professional sports make the decision. There are studies supporting both points of view -- that males always have a physical advantage regardless of when hormone therapy begins and that males do not have an advantage. There are women athletes with natural testosterone levels so high that they're required to take drugs to lower their levels in order to compete otherwise, they have an advantage over their peers. I think that's fundamentally unfair because it negates biological advantage and manipulates advantages for women who are not naturally advantaged. That isn't fair either, imo.

 

[Matata]

About fairness ...

One could argue that I'm not being fair to women with the male-advantage.
Why should they not able to compete, at all?
Not fair.

Then perhaps a third category of athletes is called for.
In boxing they have categories for weight as it would be unfair to put a 100 lb guy in the ring with a 300 lb guy.
In golfing they have "handicaps" (unfortunately un-woke word choice).

Fairness is an honorable pursuit, if and when possible.
One thing parents have to teach their children is, sometimes life is not fair.

I agree with the bolded. There aren't enough trans athletes at this point in time to do what you suggest.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Why we’re talking about…. How many trans people are involved here…. 100???On the other hand, how many transgender people are involved the military.
Google “Jo Ellis”
How long does it take to train to be a Blackhawk Helicopter Pilot?
But let’s all argue about who wins medals in sporting events. Shiny object. Don’t look behind the curtain

 

[kenny]

Why we’re talking about…. How many trans people are involved here…. 100??? ...

Yes, the number of trans athletes is very small.
But each is bulldozing over many women who otherwise would have had a fair chance of winning.

So instead of pointing out the small number of trans athletes, consider the large number cis athletes who unfairly lose because of this mess.
They are the victims here.

When a woman with the male advantage wins, it doesn't stop there.
That winner advances to the next competition level, where they win again, then advance again, over and over.

Every trans champion (unfairly) leaves many cis women in their wake.

I wonder about the ratio of trans champions vs. all of the cis women they defeated all along the way on their march to the championship.
1 to 10?
1 to 100?
1 to 1,000?
More?

Not fair! Wrong!
All this to try to appear morally superior, or "woke".

 

[Rockdiamond]

@kenny …The genius of these social issues is that your points are all spot on. Friends have mentioned how it might affect their daughters. It’s clearly unfair to cis women in sports
So it’s a very effective method of distraction.
I’m sure you’ve heard of the new Secdef’s order banning and expelling trans people from the military. Seems to me that one of these issues is far more serious and impactful than the other…yet I rarely hear about the military issue. A lot about the sports thing….

 

[Snowdrop13]

Ugh, “cis women”? Women, please, women.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Why we’re talking about…. How many trans people are involved here…. 100???On the other hand, how many transgender people are involved the military.
Google “Jo Ellis”
How long does it take to train to be a Blackhawk Helicopter Pilot?
But let’s all argue about who wins medals in sporting events. Shiny object. Don’t look behind the curtain

Exactly.
Less than 20 in the entirety of all sports from K-college. It's a non issue.
Meanwhile, millions of children will not survive the abolishing of USAID.

 

[Matata]

Violence against women is a big issue in women's sports that eclipses trans competition, although trans men competeing against women who are hurt during competition is also an issue.

Somewhere in this United Nations report on violence against women and girls in sports it mentions that "transgender athletes have won around 900 medals in different women's sports at several events, replacing female athletes. It also brought attention to the fact that more than 600 female athletes had lost against individuals born male in a variety of competitions, escalating the argument about competition fairness." (https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/fem...-to-transgender-competitors-un-report-6857482)

The full report:

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n24/249/94/pdf/n2424994.pdf

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Yes, the number of trans athletes is very small.
But each is bulldozing over many women who otherwise would have had a fair chance of winning.

So instead of pointing out the small number of trans athletes, consider the large number cis athletes who unfairly lose because of this mess.
They are the victims here.

When a woman with the male advantage wins, it doesn't stop there.
That winner advances to the next competition level, where they win again, then advance again, over and over.

Every trans champion (unfairly) leaves many cis women in their wake.

I wonder about the ratio of trans champions vs. all of the cis women they defeated all along the way on their march to the championship.
1 to 10?
1 to 100?
1 to 1,000?
More?

Not fair! Wrong!
All this to try to appear morally superior, or "woke".

i agree with you Kenny 100 percent
it is an international issue

 

[JPie]

Why don’t we focus on real problems like student protestors being deported without criminal charges or boycotting companies like Amazon and Starbucks for illegally crushing unionization efforts?

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Why don’t we focus on real problems like student protestors being deported without criminal charges or boycotting companies like Amazon and Starbucks for illegally crushing unionization efforts?

because its about fairness
i despise gross tasting starbucks and amazon shipping to NZ is outragouse so neither apply to me

but our female athletes and sports woman of all ages and abilities deserve an even playing field

 

[JPie]

because its about fairness
i despise gross tasting starbucks and amazon shipping to NZ is outragouse so neither apply to me

but our female athletes and sports woman of all ages and abilities deserve an even playing field

If you’re interested in learning more about why this is a made-up problem to unfairly target transgender people as a whole, not to mention other women athletes of color, I recommend reading these articles.

The Coordinated Attack on Trans Student Athletes | ACLU

Opponents of trans rights have moved from attacking trans students in restrooms to attackingtrans students in sports.

www.aclu.org

For female athletes of color, scrutiny around gender rules and identity is part of a long trend

Female athletes of color have historically faced disproportionate scrutiny and discrimination when it comes to sex testing and false accusations that they are male or transgender.

apnews.com

 

[kenny]

Ugh, “cis women”? Women, please, women.

@Snowdrop13
and
@Tartansparkles @etudes @LightBright @Avondale @toomuchB

Snowdrop13, I didn't want to reply too quickly to your post.
I recognize the important point you made, and took a day to think about it.

Also, I am a man discussing, arguably, a women's topic.
I recognize mansplaining is bad.
Though most people refuse to recognize it, let alone admit it, to some degree our own gender influences our perspectives.
It shouldn't, but it does.

The CNN article linked, and my posts, address a specific unfairness in sports competitions.
To even discuss that unfairness, both groups have to be identified, so calling both the same single word (women) would make no sense here.

Even though I was already quite sure, I looked up what is the correct (aka widely agreed-to) term for women, and men, who are not trans.
It is cis.

Cis: persons who identify as the gender assigned to them at birth.
Trans: persons who do not identify as the gender assigned to them at birth.

In conversations unrelated to this particular sports competition eligibility I always have, do, and will refer to women as women, not cis women.
And for conversations that are related to this aspect of sports competition eligibility I will continue to write what makes sense, cis women.

So, the point of my thread here is:
It is the cis women and girls (not women and girls!) who are being unfairly discriminated against when trans women are allowed to compete against them.

I am not transphobic.
I am unfairness phobic.

I fully support ALL other aspects of rights and equality for trans women and trans men.

 

[kenny]

Another response to some responses here:
No this is not the most important topic in the world.
So what?

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How bout, instead of changing the subject, you address the topic of the thread?

And should all threads that are not about the most important topic in the world be reported to Ella and deleted?

IOW

 

[kenny]

This whole topic brings to mind something Matt Dillahunty often said when hosting the call in show, The Atheist Experience ...

"Your right to swing your arm ends at my nose.

 

[nala]

Why don’t we focus on real problems like student protestors being deported without criminal charges or boycotting companies like Amazon and Starbucks for illegally crushing unionization efforts?

Bc that would be political and this thread would be closed

 

[Mreader]

Why don’t we focus on real problems like student protestors being deported without criminal charges or boycotting companies like Amazon and Starbucks for illegally crushing unionization efforts?

I wanted to start a thread about the legal resident student who was arrested and detained but I hesitated bc of the no politic rule. I’m SO angry about it.

 

[Mreader]

Bc that would be political and this thread would be closed

Problem is that this is a political issue now and that’s why I think people are getting frustrated and saying things like let’s discuss real problems. Because the current admin is signing all these orders and acting like this is a huge deal and getting people all riled up about it. But we can’t talk about that part of it per the rules.

 

[nala]

I wanted to start a thread about the legal resident student who was arrested and detained but I hesitated bc of the no politic rule. I’m SO angry about it.

Find a loophole and post it. Like. Make the thread about current events that make you angry!

 

[jaysonsmom]

I have been trying to stay out of this thread because it hits very close to home as a mother of a trans adult child….but my personal opinion is that trans women having an unfair advantage competing in sports against cis women is just another excuse to create hate and division just like fentanyl is an excuse for tariffs against our neighboring countries!

 

[lovedogs]

I agree with Kenny here. Trans women participating in women's sports is clearly unfair. Is it the only troubling thing happening right now? Absolutely not. Is it the biggest issue in our country or world? Also no. But just because there are other problematic things doesn't make this thing less problematic.

 

[VRBeauty]

Why don’t we focus on real problems like student protestors being deported without criminal charges or boycotting companies like Amazon and Starbucks for illegally crushing unionization efforts?

The fact that this issue is being used as a distraction and a wedge issue - and it is - doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue.

It does, unfortunately, make it more difficult to have a rational debate on the topic.

@kenny, I commend you for trying to initiate an open, honest discussion on the topic. Like you, I’m strongly for LGTBQ rights - and I find this particular topic difficult. Many athletes have (or start out with) natural physical advantages that make them particularly well-suited to their chosen sport: particularly high natural testosterone levels, skeletal quirks that give them greater flexibility, quirks that allow their bodies to better absorb oxygen, etc…. I’d have loved to be a ballet dancer, but my hip structure will not accommodate a good turnout. Unfairness is inherent in nature.

At this point I’m inclined to agree with you - if only to defuse one aspect of that wedge issue. But I do hope that at some point we’ll have finer tools for determining who is eligible to participate in women’s sports. Men’s sports too, for that matter. Goose, gander, and all that.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think, for me, the issue is that by participating in a discussion about trans people in sports we are willingly participating in …..no that’s not the right word.
We’re proving - and re-cementing the fact that it’s so easy to divide good people by introducing topics that will surely cause division.
Do you really think the people in charge give a hoot about this subject???
It feels like we’re being used
They’re cheering on this sort of debate. But we can walk and chew gum. Carry on.

 

[kenny]

Huh? What?

RD, after reading that, I don't even know how to begin to formulate a question to pursue clarification.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think it was pretty self explanatory Kenny. Shiny object. Don’t look behind the curtain.

This doesn’t negate the issue. Just that the issue itself is so very unimportant compared to kicking all trans people out of the military, for example.

 

[RMOO]

If this is about unfairness, then I would have to say, as a cis women who played basketball through high school, that I thought that other cis women, who were 6 ft tall or over was an unfair disadvantage to my 5'8 frame. So I guess we should start dividing women's sports the way they do wrestling or weight lifting, by height or weight categories?