Imposter gemstones

[T L]

Date: 10/16/2009 1:24:39 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 10/16/2009 12:31:02 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Here is that vendor photo of the tsavorite. Harriet, there are finer quality Columbian emeralds than the 90K one I posted above, but for the sake of comparison, that is a very nice emerald and it looks very similar to the
photograph of the tsavorite. You also tend to like darker tonality, and I like medium tonality, especially in green gems.


BTW, I think we''re missing the whole point of this thread by constantly arguing about comparing tsavorites to emeralds (only two types of gems). They are not identical stones, but they are both green stones, and one can be mistaken for another. Even Richard Wise indicated this copycat phenomena between emearld and tsavorite in his book. Richard Hughes even compared the two in an article. The fact of the matter is that most gem novices would mistake a tsavorite for an emerald, and that''s just a fact, but no one is saying that emeralds are better than tsavorites or vice versa or trying to put down anyones choice in gems. People love a particular gem for what it is as well. Someoene may love a tsavorite better than the finest emerald, or vice versa, and that''s perfectly fine.

TL, with respect, I''m not sure you can have it both ways. You started the whole tsavorite/emerald comparison:

Emeralds and tsavorites are a good example. Emeralds in the quality of a comparable tsavorite with that clarity and with a deep chrome green with bue undertone are exhorbitantly expensive.

You seem determined to have the last word, which is perhaps your prerogative in this case as you started the thread. However, as you also mentioned in Boom''s thread recently:

Perhaps this thread has gone off on that tangent, but many threads such as these do.

And with that Gailey has had her last word on the whole emerald/tsavorite debate.

Gailey,
This is just an enlightening lively debate for fun. No need to take it so personally. This is not also to be compared with Boom''s thread, which was something that had to do with a person''s feelings/emotions, and those types of threads do often go off on tangents. Not the same thing at all, in the least bit.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/16/2009 2:29:19 AM
Author: ma re
Call me crazy but I think some more greenish paraibas look more like emeralds than most tsavorites - due to the glow and often less than perfect clarity. Especially those set in yellow gold, which brings out the green even more.

Yes, I see that as well between some paraibas and emeralds. Good observation!

 

[Harriet]

Date: 10/16/2009 12:31:02 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
BTW, I think we''re missing the whole point of this thread by constantly arguing about comparing tsavorites to emeralds (only two types of gems).

TL,
The assumption that your thread makes is that there are "imposter" stones. By now, it should be painfully clear that there are no such things. Reductio ad absurdum. QED.

 

[T L]

Hi Harriet

Thanks for the Latin!! I really need to brush up on it.

 

[T L]

http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/spinel.htm

http://www.paraibainternational.com/blog/gemstones-and-jewels/red-spinel/

 

[LD]

Harriet - I don''t think there are "imposter" gemstones to anybody who knows anything about them and I think that the word "imposter" is being taken too literally in this thread. "Look a like" gemstones may be more appropriate. I do believe that gemstones can be similar enough, if you aren''t into gemstones, that they can be mistaken for one another. For example, I don''t know of many on this forum who would mistake an Alexandrite for an Emerald but that''s exactly what happened to me in a jewellery store when an assistant assumed my Alex was an Emerald!!!!

mr ma re - I would love to see an example of a Paraiba that had similar characteristics to an Emerald. As you know I have both and I can''t see the resemblance at all. I''d love to see one so if you have piccies, can you post them up please as I''m truly interested.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 10/16/2009 4:28:30 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Harriet - I don''t think there are ''imposter'' gemstones to anybody who knows anything about them and I think that the word ''imposter'' is being taken too literally in this thread. ''Look a like'' gemstones may be more appropriate. I do believe that gemstones can be similar enough, if you aren''t into gemstones, that they can be mistaken for one another. For example, I don''t know of many on this forum who would mistake an Alexandrite for an Emerald but that''s exactly what happened to me in a jewellery store when an assistant assumed my Alex was an Emerald!!!!

mr ma re - I would love to see an example of a Paraiba that had similar characteristics to an Emerald. As you know I have both and I can''t see the resemblance at all. I''d love to see one so if you have piccies, can you post them up please as I''m truly interested.

The question was posed to the members of the Coloured Stones forum.

Same here.

 

[LD]

Date: 10/16/2009 4:52:35 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 10/16/2009 4:28:30 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Harriet - I don''t think there are ''imposter'' gemstones to anybody who knows anything about them and I think that the word ''imposter'' is being taken too literally in this thread. ''Look a like'' gemstones may be more appropriate. I do believe that gemstones can be similar enough, if you aren''t into gemstones, that they can be mistaken for one another. For example, I don''t know of many on this forum who would mistake an Alexandrite for an Emerald but that''s exactly what happened to me in a jewellery store when an assistant assumed my Alex was an Emerald!!!!

mr ma re - I would love to see an example of a Paraiba that had similar characteristics to an Emerald. As you know I have both and I can''t see the resemblance at all. I''d love to see one so if you have piccies, can you post them up please as I''m truly interested.

The question was posed to the members of the Coloured Stones forum.

Same here.

Aaaaah, I see where you''re coming from now! I guess I was looking at it from a coloured stoners point of view and then a gemstone numpty''s point of view!!!!

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 10/16/2009 11:59:41 AM
Author: Art Nouveau
In all the talk about green stones that look like emeralds, no one has mentioned imperial jade. Certain types of imperial jade from the now extinct old mine can be very translucent and come close to emerald color. The difference is the color of the emerald green imperial jade is more pure green and lacks the blue under tone of fine Columbian emeralds. It will be very hard to see this type of jade in this country, but if you look at Sotheby''s and Christie''s old auction catalogs of jade auctions in Hong Kong, you will see lots of them and with price tags as high as 6 figures for a cabochon.

AN

AN, I would prefer a top quality fine cabochon imperial jade then an emerald cabochon anytime. Fine imperial jade (I am referring to untreated, natural imperial jade) is in a class of its own (beauty and price tag), emerald won''t even come close. The 6 figure price tag cabochon may not even be the very top quality yet, depending on size.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/16/2009 4:28:30 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

mr ma re - I would love to see an example of a Paraiba that had similar characteristics to an Emerald. As you know I have both and I can't see the resemblance at all. I'd love to see one so if you have piccies, can you post them up please as I'm truly interested.

Hi LD,
I have seen some light to medium light toned greenish copper bearing tourmalines (I won't call them paraiba since the ones I'm referring to are African) that look similar to medium-light toned emeralds. I wouldn't say they're exactly identical though. There is a strong blue secondary in some of these green copper bearing tourmalines, and that's where they tend to remind me of the color of a medium light to light toned emerald.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/16/2009 7:18:16 PM
Author: simplysplendid

Date: 10/16/2009 11:59:41 AM
Author: Art Nouveau
In all the talk about green stones that look like emeralds, no one has mentioned imperial jade. Certain types of imperial jade from the now extinct old mine can be very translucent and come close to emerald color. The difference is the color of the emerald green imperial jade is more pure green and lacks the blue under tone of fine Columbian emeralds. It will be very hard to see this type of jade in this country, but if you look at Sotheby''s and Christie''s old auction catalogs of jade auctions in Hong Kong, you will see lots of them and with price tags as high as 6 figures for a cabochon.

AN

AN, I would prefer a top quality fine cabochon imperial jade then an emerald cabochon anytime. Fine imperial jade (I am referring to untreated, natural imperial jade) is in a class of its own (beauty and price tag), emerald won''t even come close. The 6 figure price tag cabochon may not even be the very top quality yet, depending on size.

SimplySplendid,
Admittedly, one of the few gems I haven''t seen in person is top quality jadite. From your description, it sounds like a sight to behold.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 10/16/2009 12:26:30 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 10/16/2009 11:59:41 AM
Author: Art Nouveau
In all the talk about green stones that look like emeralds, no one has mentioned imperial jade. Certain types of imperial jade from the now extinct old mine can be very translucent and come close to emerald color. The difference is the color of the emerald green imperial jade is more pure green and lacks the blue under tone of fine Columbian emeralds. It will be very hard to see this type of jade in this country, but if you look at Sotheby's and Christie's old auction catalogs of jade auctions in Hong Kong, you will see lots of them and with price tags as high as 6 figures for a cabochon.

AN

That's very true, and I do remember a necklace of jade beads selling on auction for around a million dollars. I think it was coined, the 'million dollar necklace' if I recall properly. Jade has a huge fan base. Since very fine jade is so pricey, I often wonder if people do collect it instead of having an emerald. I do think most of it is appreciated for what it is. Thanks for the suggestion AN.

Oh yes, collectors in Hong Kong, Singapore, China and Taiwan collect fine imperial jade or fine jade for what they are. Personally, after seeing some excellent quality material side by side, fine imperial jade wins hands down for me.

It is quite hard to find faceted mperial jade as most of them are cut into cabochons. Good quality emeralds are rarely cut into cabochons,they are mostly faceted. I will find it quite odd for someone to spend huge dollars on a fine imperial jade cabochon to imitate a less pricey emerald.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Wow, lively discussion. I wish I could have gotten into it earlier, but I just finished a 1200 mile drive and that was the focus of my attention.

Here are my toughts on the issue.

I originally came to PS to learn about sapphires. And for dark blue stones, that is the only one for me. It has the color, brilliance, and durability I was looking for.

I discovered tsavorites, and became excited that there is an alternative to emerald. For a long time, I thought it was the only green stone out there. Inclusions bug me, and the fact they are so delicate are a problem for me. I also loved the fact that Tsavorties are more "brilliant" stones. So I got one, not realizing my green stone with the secondary blue was so hard to find. I now have another one coming that looks like Chrono''s (at least from photos, and Chrono, correct me if I am wrong about this). I am excited to see how it is different from the one I have. From what my Father has told me, it is pretty, but he did not realize it was the same stone that I already have because it was so different. It was not cost that lead me to the tasvortite, but more of the clarity and durability issue (although I can''t wear it to work like I can my sapphire). I love the color green, and I was excited to find a green stone that suit my budget and lifestyle. As I have seen more emeralds, I have come to appreciate their sleepy quality, and now an emerald cab is on my dream list.

I also discovered the spess on PS when Harriet put up her stone. One of the things that I like about gems is not just the color, but the brilliance and glow they display. The neon quality fascinated me, and I am glad I have a stone that has that kind of quality. I actually saw my first orange sapphire after I had the spess. I like the spess better. Still got to work on setting it. I recently just found out my sisters partner''s favorite color is orange, so I am getting her a spess cab. Honestly, to me spess is THE orange stone, and it was the first thing that came to my find when I found out that was her favorite color.

So I would say to me these stones were not importers, but better allowed me to have the color I wanted in a stone that fit my tastes and lifestyles.

 

[ma re]

Date: 10/16/2009 12:20:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

They just simply do not exist that often, and when they do, they''re in museums or Laurence Graff''s showcase, or on Elizabeth Taylor.

LOL, so true

But hey, not all are on her, Farah Diba of Iran has some nice ones too - LINK

LD, here are some pics;

#1 - not comparable to the best of emeralds, but to most of those available to mortals, and reminds me more of emeralds than most tsavorites, not because of the shade of color, but mostly due to other properties; if set in yellow gold and bezeled, it could look very emerald-like.

#2 - I know it''s a cab, but it could fool me.

 

[arjunajane]

just for the sake of some eye candy, maybe lighten the mood...(I'm not really a fan of emeralds and personally would sooner purchase a fine tsavorite.)

But this is pretty

 

[chrono]

Firecracker,
You''ll have to link me to your new tsavorite. There''s been so many PSers buying tsavorites lately that it''s getting harder to keep track of who has which stone. Of course, old age brain farts come into play here for me too.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 10/17/2009 8:22:15 AM
Author: Chrono
Firecracker,

You'll have to link me to your new tsavorite. There's been so many PSers buying tsavorites lately that it's getting harder to keep track of who has which stone. Of course, old age brain farts come into play here for me too.

No problem,

It was initially going to be a Christmas gift, but now it is going to be a congrats on taking the boards gift . That means I get it soon

. Lets hope I passed! Hopefully it will be at the post office today. Now that I see the pic after seeing yours, it looks different, but I can't describe how. Hoping I will have a backyard soon as I want to take comparison pics between this stone and my other stone.

ETA: I went back and looked at yours, it seems to have more of a blue undertone, and my stone a yellow undertone. I am really bad at undertones, so I am trying to learn.

 

[T L]

In my observation of many such stones, Zambian emeralds tend to have more of a yellow secondary than Columbian emeralds, and perhaps they may be more reminicent of some, not all, tsavorites. Richard Hughes in his article on Pala states the following about tsavorite and secondary modifiers and also likens the comparison of color to emerald in the finest examples.

http://www.palagems.com/tsavorite_bancroft.htm#buying_guide

Lighting: Tsavorite garent generallly looks best under daylight. Incandescent light makes it appear slightly more yellowish green.

Color: While the color of tsavorite never equals that of the finest emerald [note: many may disagree with this statement and that's fine], an emerald-green is the ideal.

My Muzo's are very blue-green. I would love to see a nice Zambian side by side next to a tsavorite of medium tone to medium-dark tone and strong to intense saturation.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/17/2009 8:35:45 AM
Author: LtlFirecracker

Date: 10/17/2009 8:22:15 AM
Author: Chrono
Firecracker,

You'll have to link me to your new tsavorite. There's been so many PSers buying tsavorites lately that it's getting harder to keep track of who has which stone. Of course, old age brain farts come into play here for me too.

No problem,

It was initially going to be a Christmas gift, but now it is going to be a congrats on taking the boards gift . That means I get it soon

. Lets hope I passed! Hopefully it will be at the post office today. Now that I see the pic after seeing yours, it looks different, but I can't describe how. Hoping I will have a backyard soon as I want to take comparison pics between this stone and my other stone.

ETA: I went back and looked at yours, it seems to have more of a blue undertone, and my stone a yellow undertone. I am really bad at undertones, so I am trying to learn.

Very pretty stone LtlF.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/17/2009 4:24:22 AM
Author: ma re

Date: 10/16/2009 12:20:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

They just simply do not exist that often, and when they do, they''re in museums or Laurence Graff''s showcase, or on Elizabeth Taylor.

LOL, so true

But hey, not all are on her, Farah Diba of Iran has some nice ones too - LINK

LD, here are some pics;

#1 - not comparable to the best of emeralds, but to most of those available to mortals, and reminds me more of emeralds than most tsavorites, not because of the shade of color, but mostly due to other properties; if set in yellow gold and bezeled, it could look very emerald-like.

#2 - I know it''s a cab, but it could fool me.

Thank you Mr. Ma Rae. Iran has an amazing collection of natural Columbian emeralds (check out the royal jewels thread).

It''s too bad that emeralds get such a bad rap due to their clarity issues and what seems like lackluster color on many of them. Like rubies, it''s so difficult to find one of fine quality, and what many people see in most retail settings, is inferior and filled material.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 10/17/2009 10:15:48 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover
In my observation of many such stones, Zambian emeralds tend to have more of a yellow secondary than Columbian emeralds, and perhaps they may be more reminicent of some, not all, tsavorites.

You mean Zimbabwean (Sandawana) emeralds, right?

 

[T L]

No, Zambian. I have not seen Sandawana emeralds in person.

 

[chrono]

Firecracker,
YES, I remember that tsavorite. I think it''s lovely!

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 10/17/2009 1:58:31 PM
Author: Chrono
Firecracker,

YES, I remember that tsavorite. I think it''s lovely!

Thank you, glad you like it. Didn''t get it today. Who knew that some Post Offices close on Saturday. All that driving around in a new town for nothing.

TL - Thanks, thought showing off a pretty would help lighten things up, although I do enjoy this discussion.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/17/2009 2:53:35 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker

Date: 10/17/2009 1:58:31 PM
Author: Chrono
Firecracker,

YES, I remember that tsavorite. I think it''s lovely!

Thank you, glad you like it. Didn''t get it today. Who knew that some Post Offices close on Saturday. All that driving around in a new town for nothing.

TL - Thanks, thought showing off a pretty would help lighten things up, although I do enjoy this discussion.

Thanks LtlF. I enjoy this thread and the discussion as well.

 

[empress]

http://www.jadebydavidlin.net/

Here''s link to a killer jade piece. Can''t say if it could be compared to emerald - but who cares?

Cheers,

 

[Harriet]

Date: 10/17/2009 1:01:41 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
No, Zambian. I have not seen Sandawana emeralds in person.

Zambians are known for being blue-ish. I hope my fairly young eyes are not failing. Even worse, I''d hate to think that ICGA (International Coloured Gemstone Association) disseminates incorrect information.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 10/17/2009 8:35:45 AM
Author: LtlFirecracker
I am really bad at undertones, so I am trying to learn.

Doc,

You should be congratulated just for surviving the boards!

One trick I''ve learnt in identifying hues is to put the stone face down on a piece of white paper. Another one is to backlight the stone, which I find more useful (especially in spotting inclusions) than using the loupe.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/17/2009 9:41:33 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 10/17/2009 1:01:41 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
No, Zambian. I have not seen Sandawana emeralds in person.

Zambians are known for being blue-ish. I hope my fairly young eyes are not failing. Even worse, I''d hate to think that ICGA (International Coloured Gemstone Association) disseminates incorrect information.

Next to Columbian emeralds, they look more yellowish to my eyes.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 10/14/2009 1:44:22 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 10/14/2009 1:19:32 PM

Author: ma re

TL, I hear you on the tsavorite vs. emerald, but I can honestly say that no tsavorite can mimic the best of emeralds. They just can''t have the same silky quality, gentle shine and depth of color. Some fine ones can come close, but that''s about it. Of course, each of them will pretty much cost you a kidney or two, but hey, they''re among the nicest gems out there.


P. S. I don''t think clarity is exclusively a disadvantage of emeralds, cause often I find inclusions in them helping the color seem more saturated and giving that glowy appearance (of course, poor clarity can be a serious issue, I''m not questioning that).

Richard Hughes said the same thing, and I agree, but they would fool most people (just not you

). I''m not talking about trying to get a gem that looks identical to another, but looks close in color and perhaps some other attributes. For most laypeople, it would be a challenge to figure out what it was. I think 99% of regular people would think a fine quality tsavorite was a nice emerald. Heck, most people don''t even know what a tsavorite is, but most people know what an emerald is.

Hmmm... I''m not so sure Tsavorite would pull it off, it depends on how Lay the Lay person is I guess. Emeralds have such a different feel to them that even before I really knew anything about gems I could tell. Most precious gems have a glow, personality, or spirit which is hard to describe that in my opinion semi-precious stones lack (I''m not saying here that semi''s don''t have their own glow or spirit, there''s just an indescribable feeling I get when looking and holding an Emerald vs a high quality green stone). Maybe by itself you could convince a layperson tsavorite was Emerald, but sitting next to each other I believe it would be pretty obvious which one was the Emerald. I mean this same characteristic appears to be with lab emeralds vs natural emeralds, something just feels off.... but it could just be me;-0

--Joshua