Is internet chatting cheating?

[rosetta]

well there you have it.

the mums here are telling you: 2x a week is more than standard!

i'm with deco here, mostly....

 

[Anastasia]

We stopped going to sex therapy for a while when we had our second baby, and haven't resumed. However, remarkably, because I haven't tried to talk about sex at all, DH seems to be a lot more turned on & is initiating sex more frequently. Now we're having sex 2-3 times per week, and there is emotional intimacy with the sex (that was my problem before - it was more of a recreational than a love activity for me). He is also not having problems anymore with being premature.

Well there you have it. You backed down, he stepped up. You need to stop pressuring the guy. 2-3 times a week is GREAT for a couple with young children. You stopped talking about it, and now he is initiating, and there is emotional intimacy.

It sounds like things have improved considerably, but you are still not happy. Only you can decide if this is a deal breaker for you. Because if you continue to pressure him, you will "break the deal". Noone likes to feel inadequate or pressured in the bedroom.

I am with deco - DO NOT write him a racy letter for your anniversary. What that says to me is,"Hey, thanks for stepping up to the plate, things have gotten much better, but you're still not meeting my needs".

 

[Dancing Fire]

Pom...tell DH to buy hand cuffs,leather jacket & a whip...

 

[HollyS]

We moved in together after we had been dating for about a year & a half, & that's when things started to get iffy for me. DH works very long hours & gets up at 5 am every day,

so of course he is tired when he gets home at 7:30 pm

. So, when he started falling asleep on the couch instead of initiating sex, I could understand that he was tired.

But we went from having sex 5 times per week

, to 2 or 3 times per week, and then eventually to once every week or two - it just seemed like his libido wasn't that high. He never turned me down if I initiated, but he would only initiate every week or two. I know that there was no **** issue, because I am fine with ****/erotica & have a collection, but he had none. He never looked at **** online, ever. I know that he isn't/wasn't having an affair, because whenever he wasn't at work he was with me, and he works in an all-male environment. He really just was one of those people who didn't have a high sex drive.

5X per week??? give him a break, no wonder he's tired...

All kidding aside, DF is right. 5x a week is more than the average by a long shot. 3x a week is quite a bit better than average, I'd venture to guess, even if you're very young. This level of frequency should not be an issue with you. If it is, then, yes, frankly, you may have a problem that has nothing to do with his 'vanilla-i-ness'.

If he's making a real effort, encourage him. DON'T tell him it isn't good enough. He obviously loves you. Love him enough to think through your responses, and how they will affect him, and your relationship.

 

[movie zombie]

another vote for NOT writing him the steamy letter/story for your anniversary: its his day also to celebrate and from what you've said, this is YOUR NEED, not his need. let it be as you've already stated things are going better than they were.

you also say that in past relationships with take charge men, it ended badly: could things be going to well now that you have a need to sabotage your relationship now? stop and think about this for a bit. go to a counselor.

and if you want to send someone your steamy writing, send it to a publisher for such things. there is a market for it.

your hubby opened up even more with the recent talk. why set a landmine in the relationship now with a letter that you want to write?! write the danged thing and then burn it if you must.

i actually felt a bit worry for your situation until more info came out. remember: what you think of vanilla is at least faithful and a steady source [his frequency with you is to be admired given kids and work!]. appreciate what you have. and learn to satisfy yourself more when he's not around.

MoZo

ps you knew this going in to the marriage, right?! either accept him as he is or get out. he's made an effort for you if he's not into it that much as you stated yet performs 3 or more times a week for you. now its your turn.

 

[Sha]

I agree with deco as well.

I think your husband sounds quite normal. 2-3 times a week is fabulous in the real world, especially considering he works long hours!! My DH and I do it much less than that, with standard hours and one child only. Of course, it's clear that your libidos/need for variety are somewhat mismatched.... but still - just to put the whole thing in perspective - he sounds pretty much like the average married male.

 

[decodelighted]

I read about the dilemma below today. And was reminded of your situation. Might wanna check it out ...

http://therumpus.net/2010/12/dear-s...lumn-58-the-light-that-just-entered-the-room/

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

I already responded, but am changing my answer now that more info is out there!

There is a hurtful stereotype that men want sex all the time and women, especially wives, are always the ones putting on the brakes. Ray Romano, Tim Taylor and that King of Queens guys getting shot down by their wives all the time and acting like a kid in a candy store when they get to have sex... makes me roll my eyes every time. This stereotype is hurtful because it makes women feel like they must be undesirable if their husband doesn't want sex all the time because hey, aren't men supposed to be constantly thinking about sex and aren't they the ones supposed to be asking for it all the time? This stereotype also makes us feel sorry for a woman who doesn't get sex enough (until we find out that 3x a week is her definition of not enough!) because there must be something wrong with a man who doesn't want sex. I know I have had issues with this - feeling insecure because I want to have sex more often but don't want to be the one to initiate, and I'd also like a little Rocky Road once in a while.

There's definitely a double standard because if a man confessed to me that he was having sex three times a week with his wife who works really long hours and is the mother of two children, and was considering starting an online relationship because it wasn't kinky enough... let's just say I am sure that I would definitely not feel any sympathy for this man.

Writing sexy stories can be fun, but doing it with someone besides your partner is the worst idea ever. It just makes the sex you do have seem lacking compared to the perfect sex you're having with someone else in your head. It hurts your partner and your marriage and your children if they ever find out. (which they would if your husband finds out)

 

[pomjuice963]

I think that some of the info in my last post wasn't clear. I am very satisfied with the frequency of 2-3 times per week. As I mentioned, things have been going much better, indeed, our sex life is the best that it's probably been during our marriage. I also mentioned that I never once criticized his sexual technique, just tried to talk about sex like normal couples do but he's so uncomfortable with the topic that he shuts down. I also mentioned that it's been a year and a half since I brought up the topic at all, so I don't understand why people are getting the impression that I'm haranguing him on the topic.

The biggest problem for me with DH's "style" is that he doesn't make me feel desired. Everyone knows that the way to a woman's heart is through her ears, and since he's so introverted, he never gives compliments, and he is not affectionate. He is unaffectionate to the point that he admitted that it ended his last relationship (his last girlfriend broke up with him for this reason after several years together). The reason that I am so worried about his lack of affection is because in all of the many times I've seen his parents together, I've never once seen them touch, and they haven't slept in the same room in 25 years, so I'm worried that that is what he thinks is normal. His parents never hugged or kissed him when he was growing up. Except for sex, he doesn't touch me except for a peck on the lips when he gets home. We have two couches in the living room, and he always sits on the one by himself because he doesn't like cuddling. He doesn't cuddle in bed at night - I don't expect us to touch while we're trying to sleep, but just hold each other for a few minutes - it would never occur to him to do this. I tried for the first several years to be physically affectionate with him (just cuddly sometimes, without sex attached) and he is just uncomfortable with normal affection. Sex is the only time that he is comfortable with being affectionate, so that is why I try to be with him at least once a week, because that is the only time that I get any physical affection.

So, after writing this out & thinking about it, I am feeling like it is more of an issue of feeling desired. I guess that I tend to escape into fantasies because otherwise I feel lonely in the relationship. Because if we're not having sex, there's no physical contact at all. The therapist that we spoke to told DH that he should work on being more affectionate, and he will try for a few days here and there, but then he slips back into his old ways.

Regarding the erotica story that I mentioned, I don't understand why some of you are assuming that I would write something that would be offensive to him - I put the "winky" after the comment I made about not writing anything scary, which means that I was kidding about that part. I was thinking of something along the lines of what CanuckGal and MonkeyPie mentioned - write him a romantic & slightly erotic story about the two of us - when we talked about intimacy last night, he seemed open to us exploring each other further, in romantic and intimate ways. That is how I intended the story to be - not anything that he doesn't like. Our therapist had actually suggested that we discuss fantasies that involve each other that are non-threatening with each other as a way to foster intimacy.

Anyway, I just wanted to write back to clarify some of the issues further. I have decided to completely put the kibbosh on the internet penpal idea, as I mentioned this morning, and after our talk last night, I am feeling really confident with the way that things are headed.

Thanks again to everyone for weighing in.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I've been watching this thread, I have so much I can say but I want to keep it succinct so that perhaps you will think about this.

In life we have a lot of control but we cannot control other people. The more you push him the more he feels inadequate, insecure. If you want him to fill the void, you need to let him fill it. You need to let him know that he is already filling it and doing a good job at it. Pump him up with how satisfied you are and how much things have improved and reward him for every little good thing he does. You don't train a dog by saying, "Bad puppy, not like that" you train them by giving them treats when they do the right thing. You cannot push him into obedience, you have to lure him. I think in this situation TALKING to him is the WORST thing you can do - besides the whole inviting other men to share your fantasy thing.

I think Dreamer NAILED the advice. Read hers again!

I also want to say that there are so many brave women in this thread that are contributing and I wanted to give them all a high 5.

And I wanted to say to DF that his comments are not only useless, they're irrelevant at best, harmful at worst and he should just stick to the eggnog thread.

Ugh - I don't even like what I wrote above... I have way too many thoughts on this subject, both personal and objective, and I don't want to start responding to every post in this thread lol I think you made the right choice about the pen pal, I think you have been wonderfully honest and forthcoming about your situation. I can relate to aspects of your situation in my own marriage, though in different combinations (my dh is more physical both sexually and affectionately than I, but he also lacks verbal ability and is more vanilla... I think he would get way more sex if he whispered more sweet nothings and I could unleash my inner animal lol)

I didn't like what one poster put, cannot recall who - but I don't think that an incompatible sex life means that you have some deep seated incompatibility and all is doomed. There is so much more to a relationship than sex, and granted if the relationship isn't that great then the bad sex can be the nail in the coffin, but sometimes the relationship supersedes the sexual aspect and you just have to figure out what works.

I used to sell sex toys at parties and I sucked at it because 95% of the women I met really just needed to talk to their husbands and buying a toy where communication was needed wasn't going to fix anything and I let them know that. Toys to me belong in the hands of really only 2 types of people... people who have had difficulty finding their personal paths... I had one woman who after 17 years of marriage and being 38 years old had never had an orgasm and didn't even know it. She hated oral sex with her husband because she either couldn't feel it or it tickled - she needed to get to know her own body before she could teach it to him. And people who are sexperts, who have such control over their orgasmic ability that switching back and forth between various methods doesn't compromise the ability to achieve orgasm from that variety of methods. Men cannot compete with toys and women who cannot go back and forth between men and toys easily need to get rid of their toys for a year and get to know their body on a slower pace again. There are tiny muscles involved that protect the c from the direct bombardment of heavy duty vibes and if you cannot relax that muscle when a man is involved they cannot penetrate your c's natural defenses. It's hard to explain without being really explicit. I have taught classes on how to achieve orgasm and how to achieve multiple orgasm lol I know... what a skill, right? pfffft

Also, another thing that crossed my mind, but potentially could sound like me being judgmental which I am NOT... is that your **** collection could be contributing to your desire, not only satiating it. The more you look at **** the more you want sex. You could be stoking your own fires a bit much But I also agree with Steel that self gratification is a wonderful thing on so many levels.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure I've either bored people or gotten people too interested lol

 

[Imdanny]

I spent some time deliberating whether I should post in this thread or not, since I mostly just lurk these days. I decided that I might as well do it, as I have a bit of a previous experience with different sexual tastes and preferences with an ex of mine. I was the one who was too "chocolate" for him. It didn't end well, as you might've deduced from the "ex" label. But it was a lesson learned and thank God with my husband that is not an issue. Anyway, forgive me if I sound too blunt, because my intention is neither to judge, nor to hurt, just to share some thoughts as someone who's been there.

Reading your first post I get the impression that the situation you're in is not something that just came out of left field for you. You say your husband is not & never has been a physically affectionate person; that you've come to realize that his sex drive is not going to increase. It doesn't seem to me like your husband has changed over the years and became a different person. What it looks like to me is that you just kept hoping/expecting for him to change to better suit your needs/wants. His tastes are too "vanilla" for you, he's not willing to experiment and 6 months of sex therapy didn't change anything. Let me be completely honest now. What you mean here is that it didn't change him. How'd you feel if he dragged you to sex therapy because he felt your sex drive is too much, your tastes are to wild for him to handle and he felt you're too kinky/wicked? As someone who's been in this situation (being told that I'm too much, I mean), let me tell you how it feels - it feels nasty. And even worse was the idea that I should change what I am in order for us to be better suited to each other.

You know what? People are what they are. They either work together, or they don't. If you feel you and your husband have a chance to work together, despite the differences, through mutual compromise and careful, steady communication, that's wonderful. If you believe one of you have to completely change his nature in order for this relationship to work however, that's not so wonderful. And expecting by default that he's the one who has to change, is not fair. It really isn't.

The internet "penpal" option doesn't sound like a problem solving idea to me, but rather like one more thing you two will have to work out together, if your husband finds out about it. As for your question "is it really that bad if he doesn't find out about it?" - maybe he'll never know, but you will, won't you?

I agree. I'd also like to add as someone who's been in a monogamous relationship for 16 years, things don't stay constant. To me, that's part of life, and that's OK. Part of being together (the "better or worse" part as someone here mentioned) is dealing with change or lack of change. It's not that I'm trying to be unsympathetic. It's just that, yes, if you do this behind his back, I agree with what some others have said, that would drive a wedge between you, even if he never found out. You would know. Maybe I'm terribly old fashioned, but I think this is something the two of you should agree on or you shouldn't do it. Sex is important, but it's not all of life. It's not all of life with another person. As many times as I think about it, I can't construe what you suggest in your OP as not cheating. I'm sorry. Edited to add, I should have add the posts I haven't read since yesterday, and I would have seen your recent posts. Mea culpa.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

I'm one of the ones who misunderstood and thought you were unhappy with the frequency. I apologize. I can see how you desire physical affection and be concerned about your husband's parents' example. I am thankful that my husband is so generous with his hugs and cuddles and "I love you"s, and I would feel very neglected if he wasn't. I'm sorry I jumped to a conclusion about your situation, and I am very glad for you that you squashed the idea of a penpal.

 

[Imdanny]

I agree, this form of communication is cheating...

However, I have a suggestion that has not been mentioned. You said your husband has a low libido and naps on the couch a lot... Has he had his testosterone levels checked? Many guys have a low testosterone level, which contributes to disinterest in sex and leaves them with low energy as well. And it is not healthy for him either, if this is the case, low testosterone levels are linked to heart disease, depression, etc. I would really encourage him to have his levels checked, even for the sake of his over all health.

I do wish you the best though...marriage is never easy...but sometimes things can turn around and be even better than what you had hoped for.

Yes, this is all true. And they have a topical prescription for it. It's expensive but insurance companies will pay for it if the testosterone level comes back below a certain range.

 

[Circe]

I'm reading this thread and finding it ... troubling, in an odd way.

There's an interesting focus on "average" here: I dunno, I strive to be above-average in most things (though it never occurred to me to consider sex in this context). The important thing isn't the LCD standard for sex: it's what makes Pom and her husband happy. Right now, Pom isn't, and we don't know if her husband *is.* Judging by what she describes, I'm gonna go with a no: I'm just not sure *why.* And if she gets laid more than a percentage of the norm, is that really supposed to be "enough," if it doesn't satisfy her?

I think men in our society suffer from this notion that they're supposed to be always up for it, in the flip-side reversal of the notion that women are the gate-keepers of sexual morality. And, of course, extending that outwards, a woman who wants sex when her man doesn't is simultaneously demanding/emasculating/inappropriate, while a dude who *isn't* in the mood is weak, suspect. NONE of this is good, and this is why I find the rallying cry of "the patriarchy hurts ALL of us" so compelling.

I don't think Pom needs to be maligned for wanting to write erotica for her anniversary: it's the halfway step between a penpal and talking to her husband, after all. It's not putting pressure on him (at least, not purely): it's sharing her feelings, and talking about intimacy. If a husband was doing this as an alternative to cheating - asking his wife to be more open and exploratory - would we be so condemnatory?

Pom, reading over your last posts, I can see how you're trying, and I think it's awesome that you're trying to think outside the box. I'm trying to read between the lines, and what I'm getting is that you maybe want your husband to be, a) more initiatory, and, b) once you're in the act, more of a top? I think you can negotiate the first, but the second is something that's harder to do right off the bat, since it's so closely linked to persona and performance. Could you maybe work up to it with the most non-threatening and indulgent elements, demonstrating rather than instructing? Like, if he sees how nice it is to be tied up, blindfolded, and covered with honey (totally random example, don't look at me like that, people), perhaps then he'll be more amenable to returning, and perhaps compounding, the favor?

 

[Imdanny]

Taking an antidepressant simply for a premature ejaculation issue is not something I would ever expect from anyone solely for my benefit. I feel it is an outrage that many doctors play fast and loose when prescribing these meds. I have a family member who committed a Zoloft-induced suicide the year before the FDA required the pharmaceutical company to put the "black box" warning on the packaging. Her doctor prescribed her the Zoloft not for depression, but to help with sleep issues. I think a few minutes of googling side effects will change your mind on wanting your husband to give it a try for non-depression issues. Doctors who are willing to prescribe this crap frivolously make me ill.

I'm sorry for your loss and I 100% agree with your post. It's galling that doctors give this type of medication out like candy without ever thinking about or warning patients of the possible side effects. Anyone who wants to know more about this can read about SSRI discontinuation syndrome on Wikipedia. Simply put, these drugs that are so commonly prescribed, if that person abruptly stops taking them (and in some other cases, I believe, but I don't have the cite to prove it), can lead to suicide. This classification of drug is not to be messed with. These are very, very strong drugs and can be deadly. The fact that doctors give them out almost as if they were aspirin is so very irresponsible and this is the first time I'm hearing about doctors giving them out for anything other than depression. People taking these drugs need to be monitored very closely. (for doctors and their general attitude of "it's no big deal" regarding this type of drug).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI_discontinuation_syndrome

 

[Circe]

Taking an antidepressant simply for a premature ejaculation issue is not something I would ever expect from anyone solely for my benefit. I feel it is an outrage that many doctors play fast and loose when prescribing these meds. I have a family member who committed a Zoloft-induced suicide the year before the FDA required the pharmaceutical company to put the "black box" warning on the packaging. Her doctor prescribed her the Zoloft not for depression, but to help with sleep issues. I think a few minutes of googling side effects will change your mind on wanting your husband to give it a try for non-depression issues. Doctors who are willing to prescribe this crap frivolously make me ill.

I'm sorry for your loss and I 100% agree with your post. It's galling that doctors give this type of medication out like candy without ever thinking about or warning patients of the possible side effects. Anyone who wants to know more about this can read about SSRI discontinuation syndrome on Wikipedia. Simply put, these drugs that are so commonly prescribed, if that person abruptly stops taking them (and in some other cases, I believe, but I don't have the cite to prove it), can lead to suicide. This classification of drug is not to be messed with. These are very, very strong drugs and can be deadly. The fact that doctors give them out almost as if they were aspirin is so very irresponsible and this is the first time I'm even hearing about doctors giving them out for anything other than depression. People taking these drugs need to be very closely monitored. (for doctors and their general attitude of "it's no big deal" regarding this type of drug).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI_discontinuation_syndrome

This, I completely agree with - and, like Danny, may I please offer my condolences, AFB.

I'll actually go a step further and say that this can go for many types of casually prescribed medications: my own body is sensitively calibrated enough that any steroid-based medication can push me into depression, and the one time I tried Ambien for insomnia, it took two days to push me over into thoughts like, "Yeah, first I'll take my pill, and then I'll smash and eat the waterglass I'm washing it down with." If it hadn't been for the experience of the former, I might not have recognized the foreign nature of the latter.

That said, these medications DO help a lot of people. The potential side-effects, which usually hit less tha 1% of people for drugs released on the market, are something to be VERY carefully watched out for ... but they're not a reason to dismiss them out of hand. I dunno if erectile disfunction is enough of a reason to take them (me, I'd suggest counseling to work through the shame, issues, post-orgasmic disinterest), but whatever you do, TALK about any and all repercussions.

 

[Hera]

I hope that you are able to get what you want out of your relationship, but I can't help bu really worry about it. You have said before that he will work on being more affectionate for a while and then it will go back to he way it was before. This leads me to wonder about your future. Somewhat rhetorical question, but can you live with the fact that he is not a physically affectionate person?

I still think that individual therapy is best because while it's nice to have someone make us feel sexy, there has to be a part of you that feels they ARE sexy already.

 

[Hera]

I'm reading this thread and finding it ... troubling, in an odd way.

There's an interesting focus on "average" here: I dunno, I strive to be above-average in most things (though it never occurred to me to consider sex in this context). The important thing isn't the LCD standard for sex: it's what makes Pom and her husband happy. Right now, Pom isn't, and we don't know if her husband *is.* Judging by what she describes, I'm gonna go with a no: I'm just not sure *why.* And if she gets laid more than a percentage of the norm, is that really supposed to be "enough," if it doesn't satisfy her?

I think men in our society suffer from this notion that they're supposed to be always up for it, in the flip-side reversal of the notion that women are the gate-keepers of sexual morality. And, of course, extending that outwards, a woman who wants sex when her man doesn't is simultaneously demanding/emasculating/inappropriate, while a dude who *isn't* in the mood is weak, suspect. NONE of this is good, and this is why I find the rallying cry of "the patriarchy hurts ALL of us" so compelling.

I don't think Pom needs to be maligned for wanting to write erotica for her anniversary: it's the halfway step between a penpal and talking to her husband, after all. It's not putting pressure on him (at least, not purely): it's sharing her feelings, and talking about intimacy. If a husband was doing this as an alternative to cheating - asking his wife to be more open and exploratory - would we be so condemnatory?

Pom, reading over your last posts, I can see how you're trying, and I think it's awesome that you're trying to think outside the box. I'm trying to read between the lines, and what I'm getting is that you maybe want your husband to be, a) more initiatory, and, b) once you're in the act, more of a top? I think you can negotiate the first, but the second is something that's harder to do right off the bat, since it's so closely linked to persona and performance. Could you maybe work up to it with the most non-threatening and indulgent elements, demonstrating rather than instructing? Like, if he sees how nice it is to be tied up, blindfolded, and covered with honey (totally random example, don't look at me like that, people), perhaps then he'll be more amenable to returning, and perhaps compounding, the favor?

I was suggesting that writing an erotic letter to her husband on their anniversary was a bad idea, not that it was a bad idea. While not a bad idea, I also don't think it would help their relationship. He is not comfortable with physical intimacy ad isn't that sexual a person so I deduce that he wouldn't really connect with the idea.

I agree that the letter is better than a stranger as a penpal, but I wouldn't be happy with both of those options as a solution. A solution I would suggest is therapy and the idea that people have different needs in a relationship and one person can't solve all of them. While I love my husband, sometimes I have my needs met by myself, family member and maybe friends. I think it's unrealistic that one person can fulfill them all. I don't think it would be realistic for my husband to be responsible for making me feel loved or sexy all day, all the time. At one point I have to find it in myself, or within the scopes of my marriage. If I can't do that, then maybe it is time to reevaluate the marriage and move on.

 

[rosetta]

Hold on.

I thought it was about dissatisfaction about the vanilla-ness of your sex life.

Now it sounds more like it's about lack of non-sexual physical intimacy.

How's an erotic pen pal going to help with that?

 

[movie zombie]

i also thought you were complaining re lack of frequency.

now i'm really unclear as to what the problem is...or is not.

yes, this relationship lacks the excitement of the dominate male relationships of the past but you stated those ended badly. from what you've stated you've actually got everything that you want except for the vanilla sex and are craving chocolate. sometimes we just don't get everything we want in one package. you have a loving hubby, children with this man and you have stated that you don't want to leave the marriage.

so why would you want to sabatoge it? again, see a counselor. i think there is nothing wrong with your having a strong sex drive or being into kink, but you chose this man knowing his issues. again, you state things are much better now. what is the real issue?

i hope that if you do write a steamy anniversary letter you do NOT present it to him: again, your need, not his. why undermine the progress that has been made?

i had a friend that wrote **** for women and got published.......she had a healthy and active sex life with her hubby. over time there came a point where he questioned whether he was satisfying her or not. it undermined his confidence. and this was a man that did not have the issues you state that your hubby has re intimacy and showing affection!

i don't think its possible to deny yourself some access to your kink: so write it out and publish it. but don't use your real name and don't tell your hubby about it. that would not be cheating in my book. it is not necessary to share every single thing with one's spouse.

MoZo

 

[Steel]

The level of physical intimacy will greatly vary in your relationship. That 'wow, I cant believe what I f*cking hottie I am with' desire does fade in and out and changes so much. He is not going to be affectionate all of the time in every way you want neither will you be, for him.

Honey, on balance are you really so frustrated in this relationship that you would consider the internet thing seriously? Or are you just thinking out loud?

 

[VRBeauty]

Pom - this thread has taken a number of different tangents - kink, frequency, general intimacy - not so much because people are jumping to conclusions, but because things yo wrote led us down those paths. That could mean that you're figuring out what the real issues are through this thread, which would be great. It also points to the possibility that there are numerous intertwined issues and that they're integral to how you see your marriage. If you haven't yet tried individual counseling, you might consider it. This has as much to do with your expectations and needs as with your husband's behavior. Please understand that's not intended to be a criticism, and I'm not saying that the only solution is for you to change your expectations, just that looking at looking closely at your needs and expectations is likely to be part of the solution.

 

[Arkteia]

Taking an antidepressant simply for a premature ejaculation issue is not something I would ever expect from anyone solely for my benefit. I feel it is an outrage that many doctors play fast and loose when prescribing these meds. I have a family member who committed a Zoloft-induced suicide the year before the FDA required the pharmaceutical company to put the "black box" warning on the packaging. Her doctor prescribed her the Zoloft not for depression, but to help with sleep issues. I think a few minutes of googling side effects will change your mind on wanting your husband to give it a try for non-depression issues. Doctors who are willing to prescribe this crap frivolously make me ill.

I'm sorry for your loss and I 100% agree with your post. It's galling that doctors give this type of medication out like candy without ever thinking about or warning patients of the possible side effects. Anyone who wants to know more about this can read about SSRI discontinuation syndrome on Wikipedia. Simply put, these drugs that are so commonly prescribed, if that person abruptly stops taking them (and in some other cases, I believe, but I don't have the cite to prove it), can lead to suicide. This classification of drug is not to be messed with. These are very, very strong drugs and can be deadly. The fact that doctors give them out almost as if they were aspirin is so very irresponsible and this is the first time I'm even hearing about doctors giving them out for anything other than depression. People taking these drugs need to be very closely monitored. (for doctors and their general attitude of "it's no big deal" regarding this type of drug).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI_discontinuation_syndrome

This, I completely agree with - and, like Danny, may I please offer my condolences, AFB.

I'll actually go a step further and say that this can go for many types of casually prescribed medications: my own body is sensitively calibrated enough that any steroid-based medication can push me into depression, and the one time I tried Ambien for insomnia, it took two days to push me over into thoughts like, "Yeah, first I'll take my pill, and then I'll smash and eat the waterglass I'm washing it down with." If it hadn't been for the experience of the former, I might not have recognized the foreign nature of the latter.

That said, these medications DO help a lot of people. The potential side-effects, which usually hit less tha 1% of people for drugs released on the market, are something to be VERY carefully watched out for ... but they're not a reason to dismiss them out of hand. I dunno if erectile disfunction is enough of a reason to take them (me, I'd suggest counseling to work through the shame, issues, post-orgasmic disinterest), but whatever you do, TALK about any and all repercussions.

I do not want to get into the whole discussion of antidepressants or other psychotropic (or non-psychotropic) drugs and side effects. This is totally another issue, and before I prescribe antidepressants, even for depression and anxiety, I always screen my patients for other things, like bipolar disorder, etc. After this black box warning, we all started prescribing less and less antidepressants, till articles appeared urging us to prescribe more, because withholding it from depressed patients also could cause suicide! It is a long issue, and if anyone wants to discuss psychotropic medications here, it should be another thread.

On a side note: when we first started prescribing SSRI's (somewhere in late 80-es and 90-es), men started complaining of sexual side effects. We had no complaints from women and assumed that they did not experience such effects. When I heard a woman complaining for the first time, I thought it was an exception. Now we see more and more women talking about sexual side effects, sexual needs and sex life. I think it is a very positive trend, because women are confident enough to talk about their needs. I feel for you, pom, but the fact that you started this thread means that you are unafraid of talking about your sexual needs. Very openly. I think it is great. Women are openly acknowledging that yes, they have needs of their own and they should be met or at least paid attention to. Ten years ago they were ashamed to mention it, even to me, a woman, while men were open about it. I am glad to see that women are unafraid now.

 

[pomjuice963]

I'm reading this thread and finding it ... troubling, in an odd way.

There's an interesting focus on "average" here: I dunno, I strive to be above-average in most things (though it never occurred to me to consider sex in this context). The important thing isn't the LCD standard for sex: it's what makes Pom and her husband happy. Right now, Pom isn't, and we don't know if her husband *is.* Judging by what she describes, I'm gonna go with a no: I'm just not sure *why.* And if she gets laid more than a percentage of the norm, is that really supposed to be "enough," if it doesn't satisfy her?

I think men in our society suffer from this notion that they're supposed to be always up for it, in the flip-side reversal of the notion that women are the gate-keepers of sexual morality. And, of course, extending that outwards, a woman who wants sex when her man doesn't is simultaneously demanding/emasculating/inappropriate, while a dude who *isn't* in the mood is weak, suspect. NONE of this is good, and this is why I find the rallying cry of "the patriarchy hurts ALL of us" so compelling.

I don't think Pom needs to be maligned for wanting to write erotica for her anniversary: it's the halfway step between a penpal and talking to her husband, after all. It's not putting pressure on him (at least, not purely): it's sharing her feelings, and talking about intimacy. If a husband was doing this as an alternative to cheating - asking his wife to be more open and exploratory - would we be so condemnatory?

Pom, reading over your last posts, I can see how you're trying, and I think it's awesome that you're trying to think outside the box. I'm trying to read between the lines, and what I'm getting is that you maybe want your husband to be, a) more initiatory, and, b) once you're in the act, more of a top? I think you can negotiate the first, but the second is something that's harder to do right off the bat, since it's so closely linked to persona and performance. Could you maybe work up to it with the most non-threatening and indulgent elements, demonstrating rather than instructing? Like, if he sees how nice it is to be tied up, blindfolded, and covered with honey (totally random example, don't look at me like that, people), perhaps then he'll be more amenable to returning, and perhaps compounding, the favor?

Circe, thanks so much for your thoughtful post. I think that you're really getting the angle that I'm coming from, but you're able to explain it in a more articulate way than I can.

VRBeauty, I think that you were right when you mentioned that I am figuring out more layers of issues in the relationship by talking it through here on this thread. You are probably right that it wouldn't hurt to talk through these things with a counselor as well.

Here's a little update - since DH & I spoke about being more present in the relationship & more emotionally intimate with each other a couple of days ago, things have actually been improving. It's little things - he really looks at me now when I'm talking, and I feel like he's really listening to me. We are being more interactive, and he's actually been more attentive & affectionate. So, hopefully we're headed in the right direction ...