Is this diamond considered an ideal cut (hearts and arrow)?

[avalovesdiamonds]

I got this image from the supplier when I asked for an ASET scope image. Since they can’t provide me with one, I was wondering if anyone can help me decipher that H&A scope results if this is a good diamond when it comes to cut.

Appreciate any help I can get. Cheers

 

[flyingpig]

Can be beautiful IRL.
But no, it is not an ideal cut diamond. not even close.
It probably has a large table, shallow crown, and steep pavilion.
A stone like this generally has good spread and white light return. But it is not good at producing fire.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

put the proportions into HCA - I think its going to score about 2.5

 

[avalovesdiamonds]

I just did that and this is the result:

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

OK, you got my opinion from 20 years ago based in information hahahaha

 

[avalovesdiamonds]

put the proportions into HCA - I think its going to score about 2.5

I’m surprised, it scored a 4.4 so that’s a big reject, isn’t it?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

its about average or better for GIA XXX

 

[avalovesdiamonds]

This is another option they gave me. I ran the proportions through HCA. The supplier wasn’t able to give me an H&A scope image yet but they said it’s a Hearts and Arrow diamond.


Without the H&A scope image is it safe to say this is a better stone than the first option just because of the HCA results?

I’ll see if I can get the image and load it up here as soon as I get it.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I think your supplier is using the terms ideal cut and hearts and arrows very loosely.

These are some recommended parameters:

Table 54-57
Crown angle 34 -35
Pavilion angle 40.6 -40.9
Depth no more than 62.3

The second diamond has a very shallow crown and a deep pavilion. It would return white light but fire would be somewhat diminished.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'd use the measurements MissGotRocks gave you. I wouldn't consider either of those two diamonds for the reasons already mentioned. I'd want that HCA score to say Excellent on the first three qualities and very good on spread (diameter).

 

[avalovesdiamonds]

Oh, I see. I thought being in the HCA cut advisor score of 1-2, it’ll be ok. The other hearts and arrows they gave me scored worse, and that 1.4 was the only one that passed.

I’ll keep those parameters in mind. Thanks!

 

[avalovesdiamonds]

Here’s another option given to me:
GIA: 5166178502
The HCA score is 3.3

nothing seems to pass the parameters for ideal.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think your supplier is using the terms ideal cut and hearts and arrows very loosely.

These are some recommended parameters:

Table 54-57
Crown angle 34 -35
Pavilion angle 40.6 -40.9
Depth no more than 62.3

The second diamond has a very shallow crown and a deep pavilion. It would return white light but fire would be somewhat diminished.

Who says these are recommended?
Does anyone know the originator of this self limiting rubbish?

 

[mwilliamanderson]

Who says these are recommended?
Does anyone know the originator of this self limiting rubbish?

My oldest notes come from Nice Ice:

From Nice Ice:

Total depth between 59 – 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 – 58%
Crown angle between 34.3 – 35.0 degrees*
Pavilion angle between 40.6 – 40.9 degrees
Lower girdle facets between 75 – 78%**
Star facets between 45 – 50%***
Girdle thickness between thin and slightly thick.
Culet: AGS pointed or GIA none.

There is a very narrow range of parameters for stones that qualify as H and A. I think that has been a big influence.

Also, there is the AGA Cut Grade document in the knowledge base that suggest for the best cut class grade to stay within very similar parameters.



Finally, there are the super ideal vendors whose ranges are easy to determine and even tighter that what we offer.

What would you suggest we tell people Gary? I’m willing to learn more but I have never seen a clear set of guidelines for those wanting to stray from Tolkowski flavored ideal cut. How do we help them do it safely?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Finally, there are the super ideal vendors whose ranges are easy to determine and even tighter that what we offer. agreed
What would you suggest we tell people Gary? I’m willing to learn more but I have never seen a clear set of guidelines for those wanting to stray from Tolkowski flavored ideal cut. How do we help them do it safely?

If people are after a super ideal then great - but there are not enough to go around.
i believe that we can help most people get a way better than average cut MWA. And if we do, then they are more likely to come back for more and many will be converted to super ideal as well.

Table 54-57 this is too narrow. Below half a carat when used in everyday jewellery 61% will get more brightness. 54% is a waste of spread.
Above 1ct I would prefer to stay under 59% unless it is for earrings or pendants and then 60% could be OK.
Above 2ct I would limit to 58% max.
See the pattern?
Also throw in the lower girdles here - 75% in a 5ct is a big dark zone, especially if combined with a small table which usually comes with steeper crown (and for us geeks a shallower pavilion).

Crown angle 34 -35
Pavilion angle 40.6 -40.9
Cant tell you how many times I answered this one.
https://diamond-cut.com.au/03_inverse_relationship.htm form 20 years ago - and nothing has changed.
You can push further in all directions as long as the relationship adjusts.
There are other threads this year where i have videos etc - maybe someone can find it?

Depth no more than 62.3 - a good safe number

 

[MissGotRocks]

Who says these are recommended?
Does anyone know the originator of this self limiting rubbish?

The OP was speaking of possible ideal cut stones or hearts and arrows. I think you will find them from most of the super ideal cut vendors. These can be expanded of course if you are not looking for super ideal, hearts and arrows stones. I think it is misleading for jewelers to throw these terms around if they can’t provide images to support them.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The OP was speaking of possible ideal cut stones or hearts and arrows. I think you will find them from most of the super ideal cut vendors. These can be expanded of course if you are not looking for super ideal, hearts and arrows stones. I think it is misleading for jewelers to throw these terms around if they can’t provide images to support them.

I am not going to say that this is a high performing diamond, but hearts and arrows come in an extremely wide range of proportions.
for example under 40 degrees pavilion and plus 40 degrees crown.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I am not going to say that this is a high performing diamond, but hearts and arrows come in an extremely wide range of proportions.
for example under 40 degrees pavilion and plus 40 degrees crown.

I understand your point but it is nothing that I would blindly recommend because I have had no first hand experience with such. Those parameters have been suggested by many here for as long as I can remember and for myself, are proven four times over in the super ideal cut diamonds.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I understand your point but it is nothing that I would blindly recommend because I have had no first hand experience with such. Those parameters have been suggested by many here for as long as I can remember and for myself, are proven four times over in the super ideal cut diamonds.

I am not suggesting anything for those businesses that have established themsleves in super ideal cuts MissGR.
I am talking about the hundreds of thousands of visitors to this site every month who will find it very hard to meet these standards for a diamond that is going to be very very hard for them to find in their price range.

I am more concerned about helping Joe and Jo than Sir Elon Bezos!

Raise the average and we raise the level of all. It is my mission, my crusade.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Garry, we really can't help Jo and Joe if they are trying to pick a diamond by numbers unless we give them a safe range that we feel confident will yield a nicely cut stone in reality. If you want to handle answering all the posts in Rocky Talky that would be great since you have extensive experience with lots of options outside the ideal cut range. I try to recommend stones that I'd be willing to buy myself even if they are not superideal cuts. I wouldn't buy any of the stones the OP has listed.

So please don't call our recommendations "rubbish" unless you want us to stop helping people so you can do it all yourself. The parameters we give usually will steer them to a nicely cut stone.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I am not suggesting anything for those businesses that have established themsleves in super ideal cuts MissGR.
I am talking about the hundreds of thousands of visitors to this site every month who will find it very hard to meet these standards for a diamond that is going to be very very hard for them to find in their price range.

I am more concerned about helping Joe and Jo than Sir Elon Bezos!

Raise the average and we raise the level of all. It is my mission, my crusade.

I understand your mission to increase foot traffic here. Most of the posters here are consumers - not experts. If too many people recommend too many stones that turn out to be dogs, your mission won’t be accomplished either.
Is there a set of parameters that you would want recommended? I think many have tried to pose this question in various forms but have not gotten a real concrete answer.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If people are after a super ideal then great - but there are not enough to go around.
i believe that we can help most people get a way better than average cut MWA. And if we do, then they are more likely to come back for more and many will be converted to super ideal as well.

Table 54-57 this is too narrow. Below half a carat when used in everyday jewellery 61% will get more brightness. 54% is a waste of spread.
Above 1ct I would prefer to stay under 59% unless it is for earrings or pendants and then 60% could be OK.
Above 2ct I would limit to 58% max.
See the pattern?
Also throw in the lower girdles here - 75% in a 5ct is a big dark zone, especially if combined with a small table which usually comes with steeper crown (and for us geeks a shallower pavilion).

Crown angle 34 -35
Pavilion angle 40.6 -40.9
Cant tell you how many times I answered this one.
https://diamond-cut.com.au/03_inverse_relationship.htm form 20 years ago - and nothing has changed.
You can push further in all directions as long as the relationship adjusts.
There are other threads this year where i have videos etc - maybe someone can find it?

Depth no more than 62.3 - a good safe number

This is helpful and we do try to extend the crown angle a bit if the pav angle is the opposite. I do sometimes recommend up to 58 table when the person isn't aiming for superideal numbers.

 

[flyingpig]

Who says these are recommended?
Does anyone know the originator of this self limiting rubbish?

Garry. I am with you that we often recommend ranges that are too narrow.
Having that said, those ranges are recommended because any combination of TB/CA/PA in those ranges will satisfy 1) GIA Ex, 2) AGS 0 and 3) HCA 2.0 or less.
I do not know who came up with the rubbish. But HCA is partially responsible for the reason why we recommend those ranges.

 

[mwilliamanderson]

I am not going to say that this is a high performing diamond, but hearts and arrows come in an extremely wide range of proportions.
for example under 40 degrees pavilion and plus 40 degrees crown.

It’s funny, I pulled up my link to H&A information and rereading it I see the proportions that are recommended to stay within for H&A are exactly the proportions that many here recommend. https://www.heartsandarrows.com/hearts-arrows-diamond-ideal-cut-dna.aspx I wonder if that’s where it all started?

I think we all know on some level that a broader range of proportions can create a beautiful diamond. Take @nala and her recent purchase as a case in point. However, trying to communicate so much information and explain all the nuances as you have on post #15 above would be completely overwhelming to a new buyer and not even possible for someone like me. People want information that is quick and easy to understand. And prosumers want information that is quick and easy to disseminate.

When I came here 7 years ago I spent months wading through pages of thread conversations between you, John Pollard, Jonathan and many many other experts trying to understand all I could about cut proportions. Many times they left my head rolling around like a bladder on a stick, more confused than when I started. The experts here often have different things to say.

In addition, we know the two biggest grading companies can’t agree on what makes the top cut grade. I purchased an AGS000 35/41 and found it less than perfect and there are many more stories of those who were dissatisfied with their GIA Ex purchases. It seems natural to me that things have been reduced to the greatest common denominator formula we have arrived at. We know the diamonds will perform beautifully and we know the proportions are safe to purchase online with advanced images.

I do understand how this is frustrating for you. No doubt if I had your knowledge base I’m sure I would feel the same way!

Anyways, I have bookmarked your comments here and I will try to learn from them. Thank you.

 

[avalovesdiamonds]

Thanks to all the feedback and I agree, as a consumer, I'm finding it really hard... just following the convo here is making my head spin

And I agree I think the supplier is a bit not precise, knowing that I know nothing on it as well, they are offering me what they think is close enough - which I don't mind, I don't want to pay astronomical prices for a diamond for my engagement ring, I just want it to be able to select the right one.

With that, I have tried to run all the options given to me through HCA - and only one came close to the green section.

Would anyone pick out any diamond from this list:

Diamond Option #1: 0.81 ct - the supplier says this is a Hearts & Arrow diamond
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=7332423527
HCA Score: 1.4
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Excellent
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread: Very Good

Diamond Option #2: 0.91 ct - the supplier says this is a Hearts & Arrow diamond
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=5166178502
HCA Score: 3.3
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Good
Scintillation: Good
Spread: Very Good

Diamond Option #3: 0.80 ct - this one they didn't say if it's an H&A diamond
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2348159263
HCA Score: 4.4
Light Return: Good
Fire: Good
Scintillation: Good
Spread: Very Good

Or it's a hard no to all? ---> then I guess I need to keep looking

 

[mwilliamanderson]

Thanks to all the feedback and I agree, as a consumer, I'm finding it really hard... just following the convo here is making my head spin

And I agree I think the supplier is a bit not precise, knowing that I know nothing on it as well, they are offering me what they think is close enough - which I don't mind, I don't want to pay astronomical prices for a diamond for my engagement ring, I just want it to be able to select the right one.

With that, I have tried to run all the options given to me through HCA - and only one came close to the green section.

Would anyone pick out any diamond from this list:

Diamond Option #1: 0.81 ct - the supplier says this is a Hearts & Arrow diamond
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=7332423527
HCA Score: 1.4
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Excellent
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread: Very Good

Diamond Option #2: 0.91 ct - the supplier says this is a Hearts & Arrow diamond
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=5166178502
HCA Score: 3.3
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Good
Scintillation: Good
Spread: Very Good

Diamond Option #3: 0.80 ct - this one they didn't say if it's an H&A diamond
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2348159263
HCA Score: 4.4
Light Return: Good
Fire: Good
Scintillation: Good
Spread: Very Good

Or it's a hard no to all? ---> then I guess I need to keep looking

The only one I would consider is #1 as it scores between 1-2 on the HCA. But as @diamondseeker2006 said Excellent for the first three categories and Very Good for the last would be relatively easy to achieve without breaking the bank. What is your budget for the stone and how much are they selling #1 for?

 

[avalovesdiamonds]

The only one I would consider is #1 as it scores between 1-2 on the HCA. But as @diamondseeker2006 said Excellent for the first three categories and Very Good for the last would be relatively easy to achieve without breaking the bank. What is your budget for the stone and how much are they selling #1 for?

Ok thanks!
They are selling it for $4,150 USD.
What do you think about that price?

 

[mwilliamanderson]

Ok thanks!
They are selling it for $4,150 USD.
What do you think about that price?

I think it’s overpriced. I realize they have to pay rent, but you could get one of the finest cut diamonds for less money. Not sure what color/ clarity you’re looking for but here’s an example.

Diamond | 0.810 ct H VS2 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4081352

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 0.810 carat H color VS2 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4081352

www.whiteflash.com

Edited to add: oops I see you’re looking at E‘s. There are no E’s in your target size but I found an F.

Diamond | 0.812 ct F SI1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4264595

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 0.812 carat F color SI1 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4264595

www.whiteflash.com

 

[tyty333]

@mwilliamanderson I think that link you provided is misleading. It is combining ideal combination of angles with H&A
and calling them H&A diamonds. With respect to Pricescope, they are two separate things. You can have H&A without
what we would consider a good combination of crown and pavilion angles (like the Op posted in their first post on this
thread). The stone does exhibit H&A but the combination of crown/pavilion is probably not what we would recommend
on Pricescope.

You can also have a good combination of crown/pavilion angles without H&A that can be a really nice stone. Not a super
ideal but still a nice stone.

So...to sum it up, you can have H&A with good angles or H&A with bad angle combinations.

You can also have some stones that are not H&A but are still nice stones (because they have good angles).

I hope that make sense?

And Op...dont believe anything is H&A because the vendor tells you. They should have an image to show you that proves
that it is H&A.

 

[mwilliamanderson]

@mwilliamanderson I think that link you provided is misleading. It is combining ideal combination of angles with H&A
and calling them H&A diamonds. With respect to Pricescope, they are two separate things. You can have H&A without
what we would consider a good combination of crown and pavilion angles (like the Op posted in their first post on this
thread). The stone does exhibit H&A but the combination of crown/pavilion is probably not what we would recommend
on Pricescope.

You can also have a good combination of crown/pavilion angles without H&A that can be a really nice stone. Not a super
ideal but still a nice stone.

So...to sum it up, you can have H&A with good angles or H&A with bad angle combinations.

You can also have some stones that are not H&A but are still nice stones (because they have good angles).

I hope that make sense?

And Op...dont believe anything is H&A because the vendor tells you. They should have an image to show you that proves
that it is H&A.

Thanks @tyty333! It does make sense. So are there no proportion guidelines for cutting H&A or is it all subjective? I wouldn’t call the OP’s stone H&A due to the appendages on either side of the arrow but you’re saying it could be sold as one because it has H&A images?