TravelingGal
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LIW meltdown last night
- Thread starter leoslove730
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janinegirly
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while aljdewey''s post was upfront with no sugar coating, i disagree that it was snarky/mean.
of course we all understand how incredibly frustrating being an LIW is and how it brings out the worst in some of us since we have no control over our destinay during that phase, yet know exactly what we want.
but reading the OP, i too, thought "poor guy" when thinking of her FI. He''s trying to deflect the meltdowns by saying reassuring things BUT won''t say enough that it ruins the surprise or is a flat out lie. I think that''s pretty decent of him. The fits and moving away at the theatre, putting money in his hand is really condescending and childish and creating opposite of the desired result.
I don''t believe the OP "already knows" her behavior is silly and therefore all responders should back off. Often people post here looking for support or for a wake up call that they''re acting ridiculous! God knows I''ve been there!
honestly, if you want to see mean/snarky take a peek at the knot.com etiquette board--now THAT is a meanspirited forum!
of course we all understand how incredibly frustrating being an LIW is and how it brings out the worst in some of us since we have no control over our destinay during that phase, yet know exactly what we want.
but reading the OP, i too, thought "poor guy" when thinking of her FI. He''s trying to deflect the meltdowns by saying reassuring things BUT won''t say enough that it ruins the surprise or is a flat out lie. I think that''s pretty decent of him. The fits and moving away at the theatre, putting money in his hand is really condescending and childish and creating opposite of the desired result.
I don''t believe the OP "already knows" her behavior is silly and therefore all responders should back off. Often people post here looking for support or for a wake up call that they''re acting ridiculous! God knows I''ve been there!
honestly, if you want to see mean/snarky take a peek at the knot.com etiquette board--now THAT is a meanspirited forum!
Keepingthefaith21
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luckystar112
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Weird. Cause when I read the post, knot.com was actually the first thing that came to mind. Guess it’s just me! (And Mimzy! And possibly Leo’s love since she hasn’t been back yet! )
I don’t know if I’ve been snarky to someone to the extent that I’ve seen others take it on here. I can think of one time that I got a full fledged attitude, and that was on one of my old threads about being stressed out a while back. But I really think I had to be pushed hard by others to react that way. I’m definitely not a “call it like I see it” type person...and I try not to give opinions unless asked. I would really NEVER write a post like the Aljdewey posted. I thought it was condescending and sarcastic...and I just didn’t like it. That’s just me. I don’t know. I mean it’s great to get an outside perpective on things, and opinions are nice most of the time...but some of the stuff I read on here I’m just like WHOA…..OKAY….not what that person signed up for!!!
None of us are perfect though, so I’m sure I may have made someone upset at one point or another. I think there are people who genuinely want everyone to like them on the board, and other’s that could care less if people like them or not. I think I’m the former. I’ve had to hold back a lot of mean things in the past. In person I’m very sarcastic and forthcoming, but not on the internet. It’s weird.
decodelighted
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Not the first time you''ve complained of people being "mean" & condescending & sarcastic. Do you truly think you''re the only fit judge of "what that person signed up for"???
I actually believe that what bothers us most about *other people* is what bothers us most about OURSELVES. (You say you''re sarcastic in real life?? Hmmmm)
And the best advice I''ve ever gotten was direct & un-sugar-coated (perhaps you''d call it condescending & sarcastic). It was: "TOUGHEN UP".
bee*
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I personally don''t think that aljdewey''s post was that bad, then again I hire a personal trainer in the gym who shouts at me so maybe I''m just strange
The way that I see it is that aljdewey went out of her way to give advice to the OP and is trying to help her. If the OP keeps acting the way she is she might ultimately push away her bf even though her aim is the total opposite and aljdewey was pointing that out. Sometimes we really can''t see what our actions are doing until someone points it out. We all root for the other girls on this site as I''ve seen time and time again, however sometimes helping and rooting for someone is not just posting and saying that we sympathize, it''s actually giving advice if we see a poster acting in a counter productive manner.
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A lot of interesting thoughts here ... but this is the one that really jumps out at me.
I asked my FI to marry me on the spur of the moment, and he said yes. Now, if he''d needed time to think, I would have understood and given him all the time in the world ... but if, rather than telling me that he needed time to decide, he''d basically disguised his uncertainty by flipping the situation around for a "traditional" guy>girl proposal, I think I might well have retracted the question, partially because I''m a feminist, and partially because it would have been flat-out dishonest. Now, I know that you haven''t formally proposed to him: from the sound of it, you guys have discussed marriage, and he knows that the door is open for him to take the next step. Awesome. What is less than awesome, though, are the ways in which it sounds like he''s shutting you down when you try to talk to him about how you feel about the situation ....
A lot of people have critiqued *your* behavior, so I''ll stick to looking at his: what you''re describing is disrespectful. It''s quite possible that he feels frustrated with the ways in which you''re acting, but it''s still not okay to be dismissive of your emotions, not on the level of calling your descriptions of how you''re feeling "whining", and not on the level of refusing to *engage in* actual, back-and-forth conversation with you on the matter at hand. You said that you hadn''t talked to him yet today ... I don''t know if that''s still the case or not by this hour, but if it is, why not try to have an honest, open discussion about the situation with him? Apologize for behaving badly, and tell him *why* you''ve been acting like this ... that the uncertainty makes you uncomfortable, that his need to make it a surprise doesn''t mesh with *your* need for security/knowledge/feeling in the loop, and that, basically, you *both* need to talk in order to find a middle ground, because right now, both of you are just hoping that the other one is going to fall in line.
You wrote, "he [tells] me that I have one of these meltdowns about every 3 weeks, like clockwork, and that is what is keeping him from proposing. He says that the sooner I shut up about it, it will happen. He says that he wants it to be a surprise and that I''m ruining it." Basically, he knows that this situation is upsetting you ... but for some reason, doing it *his* way is more important to him then your emotional state. That''s all kinds of wrong. So, talk about it, let him know how you feel (calmly and rationally, and if he starts to shut you down because he''s anticipating a freakout, emphasize that the point of this talk is to stave off future freakouts). Explain to him that, right now, it feels like you''re in limbo: ask him how he''d feel if he proposed to you, and you kept him on the hook with no answer for weeks and months, with no end in sight, and kept dismissing his concerns and telling him that the more interest he betrayed, the more you''d delay your response. Sounds a trifle sadistic when you put it like that, no? Basically, just try to see if you can use this unpleasantness as the springboard to an actual discussion of where you both stand, and how you both feel.
Good luck ....
TravelingGal
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Well, we are an opinionated bunch for sure.
I, for one, have no problems with Lucky''s opinion or anyone else''s, whether I agree or not. It really does make things interesting and can offer a different perspective. I actually appreciated Mimzy''s earlier post as it was well thought out and insightful. I love to hear other points of view. So to all, I say, keep posting!
(I''d jump in to referee here, but I''m afraid of Mara...she''s HATES refereeing! <--is that a word?
)
And back to Leoslove...hope things are a bit better for you today......
I, for one, have no problems with Lucky''s opinion or anyone else''s, whether I agree or not. It really does make things interesting and can offer a different perspective. I actually appreciated Mimzy''s earlier post as it was well thought out and insightful. I love to hear other points of view. So to all, I say, keep posting!
(I''d jump in to referee here, but I''m afraid of Mara...she''s HATES refereeing! <--is that a word?
And back to Leoslove...hope things are a bit better for you today......
luckystar112
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luckystar112
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I agree. I genuinely like everyone on the board and I respect everyone''s opinion, even people I don''t agree with. That''s why I hope that MY opinion can be taken with a grain of salt as well. I really don''t like fighting with people, which is why I tried not to get confrontational in my original post...but eh...what can you do?Date: 9/24/2007 4:39:16 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Well, we are an opinionated bunch for sure.
I, for one, have no problems with Lucky''s opinion or anyone else''s, whether I agree or not. It really does make things interesting and can offer a different perspective. I actually appreciated Mimzy''s earlier post as it was well thought out and insightful. I love to hear other points of view. So to all, I say, keep posting!
(I''d jump in to referee here, but I''m afraid of Mara...she''s HATES refereeing! <--is that a word?)
And back to Leoslove...hope things are a bit better for you today......
luckystar112
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decodelighted
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FireGoddess
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princesss
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Okay, I''m going to disregard the whole debate on polite vs. impolite and tell you what I would do in your situation.
First, I''d write a letter. I''d write down all the reasons you want to get married, all the things that make you want to get married now, and all the reasons you''re frustrated with your BF. I''d put it in a locked place where he can''t find it and wait a day. Then I''d go through and highlight the important things that you need to communicate to him. I''d make a brief list of talking points, and I''d approach him when he''s in a decent mood and talk about it calmly. Practice in a mirror a few times so that your emotion comes out when you''re by yourself so that it doesn''t turn this discussion into an argument. Ask him why it''s so important to follow his plan that it''s okay for you to be so upset. But (and this is key) don''t actively get upset during the discussion. If the tears start to come, ask for a time out, wipe them off, wash your face and go back to it. After this freak out I bet he''d appriciate that you''re making an effort to control yourself and he''s more likely to respond well. Often guys aren''t able to understand the underlying cause of insanity in their girlfriends (I had to have a talk with mine last night because he didn''t get why I was upset that we were talking about moving someplace together next year while he was talking about how horrible it would be to be engaged soon. I finally had to enumerate the reasons I was upset, and when he understood what was going on he apologized and we worked on a plan to communicate these things better.). Hopefully once he sees what''s going on under the "crazy" (maybe you''re insecure about the way your relationship is going? Maybe he keeps acting like it''s going to happen and faking you out and it hurts you?) he''ll feel better about where you''re coming from.
After that, I''d say when you feel the urges coming up to have a bit of a tantrum, try a new hobby. What about scrapbooking? You could make a scrapbook of your relationship and look forward to more pictures later. What about planning a trip and saving up for it? It could be a lot of fun to look up places to go and how to get there, and figure out a budget. Plus you could get a travel guide and read through it. What about picking up something like bowling that''s fun and silly and let''s you throw things pretty hard?
I have a pretty bad temper, but after paying attention to it I learned how to recognize when it''s about to flare up and take myself out of the situation or mindset that''s leading to it. This would be similar. When you feel the jealousy rising, find a mental happy place to go to. Maybe buy a really funny TV show on DVD and pop in an episode if you can (I love The Office and The Girls Next Door to cure a bad mood). And, above all, when you feel a snarky comment coming on, bite your tongue. It''s hard and it sucks, but weigh your options. Snarky comment = fight. Biting tongue = no fight.
I really wish you the best. It sounds like you''re having a rough time with this, and I hope it gets easier. *big hug*
First, I''d write a letter. I''d write down all the reasons you want to get married, all the things that make you want to get married now, and all the reasons you''re frustrated with your BF. I''d put it in a locked place where he can''t find it and wait a day. Then I''d go through and highlight the important things that you need to communicate to him. I''d make a brief list of talking points, and I''d approach him when he''s in a decent mood and talk about it calmly. Practice in a mirror a few times so that your emotion comes out when you''re by yourself so that it doesn''t turn this discussion into an argument. Ask him why it''s so important to follow his plan that it''s okay for you to be so upset. But (and this is key) don''t actively get upset during the discussion. If the tears start to come, ask for a time out, wipe them off, wash your face and go back to it. After this freak out I bet he''d appriciate that you''re making an effort to control yourself and he''s more likely to respond well. Often guys aren''t able to understand the underlying cause of insanity in their girlfriends (I had to have a talk with mine last night because he didn''t get why I was upset that we were talking about moving someplace together next year while he was talking about how horrible it would be to be engaged soon. I finally had to enumerate the reasons I was upset, and when he understood what was going on he apologized and we worked on a plan to communicate these things better.). Hopefully once he sees what''s going on under the "crazy" (maybe you''re insecure about the way your relationship is going? Maybe he keeps acting like it''s going to happen and faking you out and it hurts you?) he''ll feel better about where you''re coming from.
After that, I''d say when you feel the urges coming up to have a bit of a tantrum, try a new hobby. What about scrapbooking? You could make a scrapbook of your relationship and look forward to more pictures later. What about planning a trip and saving up for it? It could be a lot of fun to look up places to go and how to get there, and figure out a budget. Plus you could get a travel guide and read through it. What about picking up something like bowling that''s fun and silly and let''s you throw things pretty hard?
I really wish you the best. It sounds like you''re having a rough time with this, and I hope it gets easier. *big hug*
TravelingGal
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FireGoddess
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When I am flaming mad at someone or something, I write it in a journal. Every thought, every analysis, every word, everything that pisses me off. And I leave it there. I find that it helps me get the thoughts OUT without getting them all over SOMEONE. I find that works, even after I've tapped all my friends for commiseration.
I basically agree with the consensus that you need to lay off him for awhile and find something else to do, and some other outlet for your feelings. He knows what page you're on and agrees that it *will* happen. When however, is not only up to you...and the more you make it only about you....the less he will feel like doing it.
I basically agree with the consensus that you need to lay off him for awhile and find something else to do, and some other outlet for your feelings. He knows what page you're on and agrees that it *will* happen. When however, is not only up to you...and the more you make it only about you....the less he will feel like doing it.
Miranda
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Oh no, I thought I had some really good advice, but, I see it''s turned to pie here! I''ll give it anyway...If you are having a ''freak out'' monthly could it be a hormonal thing? Even if it''s not during the PMS week there are still hormonal fluctuations that may cause some sensitivity and outbursts. I know that mid month I tend to get a little ''honest''. Good luck in your situation.
DMBsGirl
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OMG, me too! I can''t believe I didn''t make the connection with her three week thing. I never realized that I did this until FI pointed out that I never really overreact emotionally unless it''s that time. He was very good and tactful about waiting until it was NOT that time to tell me this, so I won''t overreact to him telling me I overreact... you know what I meanDate: 9/24/2007 7:55:24 PM
Author: DMBsGirl
Totally agree with this. My freakouts tended to happen the week before my period.
hlmr
Ideal_Rock
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Hi Leoslove, I hope you are feeling stronger and thinking more clearly today.
I just wanted to say that I really thought Al''s advice hit the head on the nail. There are plenty of people in this world who will tell you, oh poor you, how stressful and frustrated you must feel, or hang in there, your time will come. You were given candid, honest advice that should be taken literally.
Speaking from personal experience, I know it is much harder to sit back and wait, instead of trying to be in control of this situation. You will get no where in a hurry, if you let your selfishness get the best of you and your relationship.
Don''t try to start your life together on such a needy note.
I just wanted to say that I really thought Al''s advice hit the head on the nail. There are plenty of people in this world who will tell you, oh poor you, how stressful and frustrated you must feel, or hang in there, your time will come. You were given candid, honest advice that should be taken literally.
Speaking from personal experience, I know it is much harder to sit back and wait, instead of trying to be in control of this situation. You will get no where in a hurry, if you let your selfishness get the best of you and your relationship.
Don''t try to start your life together on such a needy note.
aljdewey
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Lucky, it would appear you did miss the point.
I have NEVER, EVER posted here for the sheer sake of being mean. Seriouly? I have better things to do, and if I weren''t trying to help, I''d save all the typing, yanno?
Let me tell you what the point of my post was.
1. To give her a window on how her actions are perceived by someone NOT so close to the situation.....because sometimes, it''s SO hard to see what''s really transpiring when you''re that close to it.
2. To help her understand that SHE is putting her relationship in peril through her actions. If she KNEW that, she wouldn''t be continuing to do it, would she?
3. You''re saying "she knows she''s acting badly", and I agree that she knows she''s being immature to push for engagement. I don''t believe it''s clear to her that some of her current techniques are very likely to be received as manipulative (running to cry when you don''t get the answer you want; moving to the other end of the seat in a theater, etc.) In reading her post, I got the impression she thinks she''s being immature because she''s being impatient. I''m trying to help her by pointing out that this is about MORE than being impatient.......she''s setting the tone for what he can expect in how they might resolve disagreements in their marriage, and BELIEVE ME when I tell you that ain''t gonna fly. Not with most guys.
She needs to understand how integral LISTENING is. She needs to understand that this isn''t the only thing they''ll ever have different timelines on. She claims her relationship is otherwise perfectly healthy....and maybe it is.....but I''ve yet to meet a woman who resorted to completely out-of-character behavior just because she was impatient. Things you do under duress are more typically things that come naturally and instinctually......and she''s treating him VERY poorly. This for a guy whose message has been "yes, I want to marry you, and yes, I''m working on it."
I''m sorry if the direct approach bothers you, or anyone else here, but I''m with Mara, Tgal, and many others in that I''m not here to be a cheerleader. I''m here to help.....sometimes with selecting diamonds, and sometimes with other things if I think I have something to offer. I offer it in the way that''s genuine to ME.....direct, honest, and with a SINCERE intention to help.....and I don''t intend to change that just to have others think I''m politically correct. I''m not trying to win a popularity contest.....I think I can help her.
Maybe now it''s clearer. If you disagree with my approach, that''s totally your prerogative. To each his own. We don''t have to agree.
aljdewey
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I gotta strongly disagree with this.
If she wants it her way, she can do the proposing. But if she''s going to let him propose, then it''s up to him to do it in the way HE feels comfortable.
I don''t agree at all that he''s prioritizing his feelings above her own. Were it not for the fact that this were coming up like clockwork with incredible amounts of drama (crying, storming off to the other end of the row in the theater, making snippy comments at him), perhaps he WOULD have relented and sped up his timeline. We can''t know, because he isn''t here to tell us.
But I CAN tell you one thing: if someone approached me that way and did thinks like "oh, I need to find ME a Maria", I''d have *major* second thoughts......as in ''uh, WHAT am I about to do? Do I *really* want to sign on for a life of being badgered like this?''.
They aren''t married or engaged YET, so if her behavior might be causing him to have second thoughts, then HELL YES, he SHOULD prioritize himself....because if he doesn''t, who will? Better he takes his time to think it through now and want it then to regret it later.
Look, a proposal is about TWO people....not one. It has to meet two people''s expectations, not just one. Proposing is one of the most scary, earthshattering, exciting, terrifying, important and MONUMENTAL things a man will do......even those who can''t wait to do it and can''t wait to marry! Because''s she''s not in that position, she has no idea what that''s like. I was living with my (now) husband for nearly a year. He knew he wanted to marry me after 3 weeks of dating, but we wanted to live together for a while first. Point being: I was a slam-dunk, no-brainer, sure thing to say yes,.......and it *still* took him the better part of a full day to get up his nerve to ask!
In his shoes, I''d expect that anyone mature enough for marriage would be able to handle this situation a bit differently than this, and this kind of behavior would give me pause too.
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Does it have to be either/or? To me, it looks like they''re both (sorry to talk about you like you''re not here, LL) being stubborn. Given that LL''s individual behavior had been pretty thoroughly parsed by the time I wandered across the the thread, I thought it might make sense to look at some of the underlying factors causing it ....
I agree with you that a person can''t have it both ways: either you propose, or you are proposed to; simply telling someone else what to do erases their autonomy, negates the meaning of the act, and, well, disregards their feelings. If I thought that was all that was going on here, I''d probably be on the other side of the table. But it''s not that simple.
Going on what LL''s said, they''ve discussed this, and the *eventual* proposal has been tacitly - heck, directly! - agreed upon. But LL''s BF is basically punishing her for her behavior by delaying the promised goody, and telling her outright that as long as she misbehaves, he''s going to keep right on doing it. That''s not an adult relationship: that''s a bad parenting technique. It makes for a disturbingly unequal power dynamic, and I can kind of see how, if one is being treated like a child, one might start to behave in a childish fashion. I agree with you that we''re only getting one side of the story here: maybe he''s not *really* laughing at her, maybe he''s not saying that she''s "whining" whenever she talks about how she feels, maybe he''s not shutting her down when she tries to come to some kind of an approach that they can both be happy with ... but that *is* how she feels, and that *is* a pretty important thing for them to resolve before the relationship gets more serious. Hence my suggestion that they try to talk things out calmly and rationally ....
Now, moving on from LL to the more general ... you say, "Proposing is one of the most scary, earthshattering, exciting, terrifying, important and MONUMENTAL things a man will do ...." No offense, but *I* kind of disagree with this. Not in terms of proposing per se ... it''s an honest, open, naked, wonderfully terrifying act. You''re incredibly vulnerable, and naturally it takes some working up to! But, a) this kinda sounds like the guy version of "Giving birth is the most important thing a woman can ever do!" (which always makes me want to start passing the biographies of Cleopatra and Currie around the room), and, b) I think that the expectations which can arise from that are a big part of the implicit problems in the system of proposing these days, which this specific situation underscores pretty neatly. A lot of people spontaneously come up with wonderful, amazing proposals, and more power to them. But when it''s less about committing your future to another human being and making them as happy as you can for as long as you both shall live, and more about surprises, or topping the guy who rented a plane, or proposed on Mt. Everest, or got 100,000 YouTube hits ... hmm. That strikes me as being something of an ego-trip, and the exact opposite of what marriage should be about ....*
*Not, btw, when it''s done purely to make the propose-ee happy, but more in those situations where it''s an additional hurdle to the engagement that s/he doesn''t want.**
**Note: I''m not criticizing anyone who''s performed or received one of these types of proposals personally, just the social expectation that, to go along with the commitment, you need a heck of a big fish story in order to build macho. I''m not really a pie kind of girl.
I agree with you that a person can''t have it both ways: either you propose, or you are proposed to; simply telling someone else what to do erases their autonomy, negates the meaning of the act, and, well, disregards their feelings. If I thought that was all that was going on here, I''d probably be on the other side of the table. But it''s not that simple.
Going on what LL''s said, they''ve discussed this, and the *eventual* proposal has been tacitly - heck, directly! - agreed upon. But LL''s BF is basically punishing her for her behavior by delaying the promised goody, and telling her outright that as long as she misbehaves, he''s going to keep right on doing it. That''s not an adult relationship: that''s a bad parenting technique. It makes for a disturbingly unequal power dynamic, and I can kind of see how, if one is being treated like a child, one might start to behave in a childish fashion. I agree with you that we''re only getting one side of the story here: maybe he''s not *really* laughing at her, maybe he''s not saying that she''s "whining" whenever she talks about how she feels, maybe he''s not shutting her down when she tries to come to some kind of an approach that they can both be happy with ... but that *is* how she feels, and that *is* a pretty important thing for them to resolve before the relationship gets more serious. Hence my suggestion that they try to talk things out calmly and rationally ....
Now, moving on from LL to the more general ... you say, "Proposing is one of the most scary, earthshattering, exciting, terrifying, important and MONUMENTAL things a man will do ...." No offense, but *I* kind of disagree with this. Not in terms of proposing per se ... it''s an honest, open, naked, wonderfully terrifying act. You''re incredibly vulnerable, and naturally it takes some working up to! But, a) this kinda sounds like the guy version of "Giving birth is the most important thing a woman can ever do!" (which always makes me want to start passing the biographies of Cleopatra and Currie around the room), and, b) I think that the expectations which can arise from that are a big part of the implicit problems in the system of proposing these days, which this specific situation underscores pretty neatly. A lot of people spontaneously come up with wonderful, amazing proposals, and more power to them. But when it''s less about committing your future to another human being and making them as happy as you can for as long as you both shall live, and more about surprises, or topping the guy who rented a plane, or proposed on Mt. Everest, or got 100,000 YouTube hits ... hmm. That strikes me as being something of an ego-trip, and the exact opposite of what marriage should be about ....*
*Not, btw, when it''s done purely to make the propose-ee happy, but more in those situations where it''s an additional hurdle to the engagement that s/he doesn''t want.**
**Note: I''m not criticizing anyone who''s performed or received one of these types of proposals personally, just the social expectation that, to go along with the commitment, you need a heck of a big fish story in order to build macho. I''m not really a pie kind of girl.
luckystar112
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Aljdewey---
I didn''t mean for it to get this far. We''ve already moved on to pie, so I''m going to refrain from expressing all of my opinions on this subject any further...except for one:
The only people I have taken to the steps to "defend" on this board are--
Cehrabehra
Mustangfan
leoslove
What do they all have in common? All of them decided to stop posting after the incident.
So, it''s obviously not just me.
Like I said, I didn''t mean for it to be taken this far. Should have shut up after my first snooty comment.
But I usually only speak up if I have a strong opinion about it.
We''re both entitled to our opinions, right?
I hope we can move on from this.
I didn''t mean for it to get this far. We''ve already moved on to pie, so I''m going to refrain from expressing all of my opinions on this subject any further...except for one:
The only people I have taken to the steps to "defend" on this board are--
Cehrabehra
Mustangfan
leoslove
What do they all have in common? All of them decided to stop posting after the incident.
So, it''s obviously not just me.
Like I said, I didn''t mean for it to be taken this far. Should have shut up after my first snooty comment.
But I usually only speak up if I have a strong opinion about it.
We''re both entitled to our opinions, right?
I hope we can move on from this.
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