Marriage Vow: Till Alzheimer's do we part?

[smitcompton]

Hi,

This past yr I broke my knee and leg and had to go to a convelesent facility to recup. My roommate seemed to be a lovely elderly woman, age 84, who would ask me the same questions every day, a couple or more times a day.. She did not stop talking to me, about the same things every day, non stop.

Supposedily she was unable to walk, but got up at night and opened my closets to have a look. After about a week I realized she had dementia, which her husband, aged 86, was trying to cover up. They both forgot I was there, and he would scold her, telling her if she didn't do better, the doctors would institutionalize her. Her children visited often, and her way of dealing with her problem was to ask questions of everyone so they would continue to talk. She said very little.

Her family was great, but I couldn't take it and so asked to be moved, telling them that the woman had some form of Alheimers.
The staff was very quick to test her, while the husband finally did tell them she had already been diagnosed, but he hadn't told anyone.

They started treatment on her and she got a new roommate, who was not at all bothered by her. It goes to show. It was hard for me and she wasn't even that bad.

I don't have the answer. I want people to go through life and have some moments of happiness while not stomping on others.
If I don't remember anything anymore then let my spouse find some happiness, but not forget all about me.

Maise, havent you gone through 2 divorces already?

Thanks,

Annette

 

[Circe]

As much as I dislike Pat Robertson (who made the original comment), he wasn't encouraging people to get divorced if their spouse gets alzheimers. He was apparently speaking about someone he knew whose wife had the disease. The man still went and visited her and took care of her but had started seeing another woman. What Pat Robertson said was that if he was going to be seeing someone else, he should divorce his first wife so that it wasn't adulterous. His rationalization for condoning the divorce was that since the man's spouse didn't know who he was anymore, it was as though his wife was no longer there.

I don't agree with him regarding the divorce, but I don't have a problem with the man seeing someone else. If I had alzheimers or advanced dementia I would hope that DH would be able to find companionship with someone else.

Ah. Important clarification. Suffice it to say that, as usual, I completely disagree with Pat Robertson. Given the circumstances, I'd say the man in question is handling his situation with as much honor and practicality as possible ....

(Also, what kind of craziness is it that it's better to abandon an unwell spouse who can't care for themselves than to cheat on them in a way they won't know or care about? Sheesh, "Christian values" have taken a turn for the worse that I couldn't even have imagined .... - Christian values in quotes because I don't think Robertson exemplifies either.)

 

[ladypirate]

As much as I dislike Pat Robertson (who made the original comment), he wasn't encouraging people to get divorced if their spouse gets alzheimers. He was apparently speaking about someone he knew whose wife had the disease. The man still went and visited her and took care of her but had started seeing another woman. What Pat Robertson said was that if he was going to be seeing someone else, he should divorce his first wife so that it wasn't adulterous. His rationalization for condoning the divorce was that since the man's spouse didn't know who he was anymore, it was as though his wife was no longer there.

I don't agree with him regarding the divorce, but I don't have a problem with the man seeing someone else. If I had alzheimers or advanced dementia I would hope that DH would be able to find companionship with someone else.

Ah. Important clarification. Suffice it to say that, as usual, I completely disagree with Pat Robertson. Given the circumstances, I'd say the man in question is handling his situation with as much honor and practicality as possible ....

(Also, what kind of craziness is it that it's better to abandon an unwell spouse who can't care for themselves than to cheat on them in a way they won't know or care about? Sheesh, "Christian values" have taken a turn for the worse that I couldn't even have imagined .... - Christian values in quotes because I don't think Robertson exemplifies either.)

Yeah, he's pretty awful as a general rule. I mean, in this case he did specify that the guy should provide for her care, but the idea that the divorce is necessary seems so odd to me.

 

[Maisie]

Hi,



Maise, havent you gone through 2 divorces already?

Thanks,

Annette

I have been divorced before. I am speaking from the place I am now. I am a christian and so is my husband. We are different people and as such I view marriage completely differently.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Re: Marriage Vow: Till Alzheimers do we part?

One caller into the radio show said his wife had the illness and he now lives with a new companion but will not divorce.
He was quick to add that unless YOU have a spouse with Alzheimer's you cannot possibly know how hard it is for the person to literally vanish in front of your eyes and think of you as a stranger, so you shouldn't judge people who take this route.

I could imagine doing this -- it would depend on circumstances I can't really even fathom now. I would not divorce and I would not stop being in charge of my husband's care.

This exactly. I do know that if I were to be a victim of Alzheimer's, I would absolutely want my husband to find companionship elsewhere. I don't think he would ever divorce me (for the same reasons I would not divorce him), but I hate the thought of him feeling obligated to be faithful to me if I were at the point where I had no idea who he was. I can't think of a more devastating disease.

 

[MissStepcut]

Well, I assume that my spouse would need me to stay married to them so I would continue to have standing to oversee their medical care. If, however, that wasn't necessary, I would certainly consider divorcing. The person with alzheimer's would no longer be my "spouse," and someone else in my life would be stepping in to fill that roll. Seems unfair to the new mate to still be married to my former spouse.

 

[TooPatient]

No.

Marriage vows are until death. Until dead and burried. Period.
(I'm also one of those believers in no re-marriage after the death of a spouse)

 

[TooPatient]

Well, I assume that my spouse would need me to stay married to them so I would continue to have standing to oversee their medical care. If, however, that wasn't necessary, I would certainly consider divorcing. The person with alzheimer's would no longer be my "spouse," and someone else in my life would be stepping in to fill that roll. Seems unfair to the new mate to still be married to my former spouse.

Sadly, we have a friend who HAD to divorce his wife who was suffering with AD. In order to get financial assistance to pay for her care (after his insurance had been maxed) they couldn't be married.
He stuck with her and took care of her until the day she died (in a care facility).


Long-Term-Care Insurance!

Absolute must.
My aunt recently had to put her husband in a facility after his AD got to be too much for her (and nurses visiting at home) to take care of. The facility is very nice and even lets her stay with him when she wants to.
They had been married just a couple of months when he was diagnosed with early onset alzheimer's. He was just over 50 at the time (just a couple of years ago). Doctor's expect that he won't live more than a couple more years.

 

[jewelerman]

This has been a difficult thread for me to read.My mother died from early onset Alzheimers and breast cancer after a long illness that lasted from 1992 until her passing only 4 years ago.My father cared for her every step of the way through every heart crushing minute of her daily care and watching her fade away.The emotional ,physical and financial toll on my family has been something that we haven't easily been able to recover from. I cant judge anyone for walking away from this situation.It takes more then a huge amount of strength to deal with this hellish disease and its called the long goodby for good reason.

 

[Maisie]

This has been a difficult thread for me to read.My mother died from early onset Alzheimers and breast cancer after a long illness that lasted from 1992 until her passing only 4 years ago.My father cared for her every step of the way through every heart crushing minute of her daily care and watching her fade away.The emotional ,physical and financial toll on my family has been something that we haven't easily been able to recover from. I cant judge anyone for walking away from this situation.It takes more then a huge amount of strength to deal with this hellish disease and its called the long goodby for good reason.

I'm sorry

 

[charbie]

I work with Alzheimer's patients and also have patients with brain injuries in my nursing home. There are 5 couples that I can think of off the top of my head who are together still following a brain injury or diagnosis of Alzheimer's, and I have to say that I greatly admire them. It has got to be so difficult.
One woman visits every single day for the entire evening after spending her day at work. She and her husband had only been married a year when he was in a tragic motorcycle accident and was left paralyzed, on a feeding tube, and prety much nonresponsive. She did eventually divorce him for financial reasons....him being in the nursing home and needing Medicaid made it difficult. But she still behaves as his wife otherwise. It has been over 25 yrs. I simply cannot imagine living my life that way, and I would never want my husband to give up having children, a person to sleep next to every night, someone to go on vacation with, etc, etc. It would be my hope that my husband would move on, however it would be nice for him to be able to have my "shell" as a part of his new life. I hate seeing patients who have no one to visit.
I think for me it really would depend on my age and health when my husband became ill as to whether or not I would become involved with another person.

 

[kenny]

Great discussion.
Thanks everyone for their perspectives, and not forcing them on others.

 

[Skippy123]

I work with Alzheimer's patients and also have patients with brain injuries in my nursing home. There are 5 couples that I can think of off the top of my head who are together still following a brain injury or diagnosis of Alzheimer's, and I have to say that I greatly admire them. It has got to be so difficult.
One woman visits every single day for the entire evening after spending her day at work. She and her husband had only been married a year when he was in a tragic motorcycle accident and was left paralyzed, on a feeding tube, and prety much nonresponsive. She did eventually divorce him for financial reasons....him being in the nursing home and needing Medicaid made it difficult. But she still behaves as his wife otherwise. It has been over 25 yrs. I simply cannot imagine living my life that way, and I would never want my husband to give up having children, a person to sleep next to every night, someone to go on vacation with, etc, etc. It would be my hope that my husband would move on, however it would be nice for him to be able to have my "shell" as a part of his new life. I hate seeing patients who have no one to visit.
I think for me it really would depend on my age and health when my husband became ill as to whether or not I would become involved with another person.

this brought tears to my eyes. Charbie I bet your patients appreciate you. I honestly don't know what I would expect of my husband. I hope my kids would visit from time to time. If it was my husband I would for sure visit him. I never asked him about this. I have a feeling knowing the type of person he is that he would go see me everyday and I personally would want him to find love besides me though.

 

[packrat]

Reminds me of The Notebook. I bawled like the world was coming to an end when I read it.

I would not leave or divorce so I could see someone else. I think one of my Gramma's is getting a little..loopy, I guess, but I don't know how much of that is just her trying to keep me there to talk so she's not by herself..and after a while I think when you act a certain way, it becomes habit, even when there's nothing wrong. Regardless, it's hard for me to go three times a day 7 days a week to fix my gramma's meals and make her bed and help her change her depend. My gramma was a tough ole farm wife and she's 92 now and it breaks my heart to see her like that..but I'm not about to go out and find myself a new gramma. I wouldn't go out and find another guy either, if something happened to JD now or in the future that he required care. It was hard enough finding this guy in the first dang place, like I want to subject myself to that crap again? I don't have naked time w/my own husband now, so I won't need it from any other guy in the future if something happened to him. I'm complete unto myself and I don't need another guy. I'm bound to my husband in my heart.

I wouldn't abandon a family member b/c things got difficult, no matter how difficult it happened to be. If I needed help taking care of them myself or they needed to be in a facility for their own safety, that's one thing, but to "Yep yep see ya" and wander off into the sunset b/c they don't recognize me anymore, no.

I watched my Uncle die a very slow death from cancer (tho granted, not years like w/AD). I remember my cousin and Aunt telling me a few times to leave when things got particularly bad, not to be mean, but b/c they didn't want me to see him like that or remember him like that. And I couldn't. Just b/c he didn't know who we were at times, we knew who he was and there was no way on earth I was going to turn my back on him and walk out the door. So if JD's mind is gone and he doesn't know me anymore, he's still stuck w/me b/c he's my husband and *I* know he's my husband. He's my Westley.

 

[Black Jade]

Till death do us part.
Alzheimer's is not death.
'Nuff said.

(and I do know how devastating alzheimers is--we have had some severe cases in the family).

 

[gardengloves]

this thread has been difficult for me too. My mom has dementia, a bit different from alzheimers - she can appear very social and lucid, but all executive function and judgement is lost --- dad died years ago,and I am only family member left to to help mom- he would have wanted it and glad to look in mirror each day and know he would have wanted her cared for.. No one can convey how hard this is... the financial ruin, the devastation, the chaos of an adult, your parent--- in the world who has lost ability, coming to grips and getting the help needed.

She was a fashion model and great beauty, but now she is secure, tucked away and receiving care she needs in wonderful compassionate nursing home-- I visit, give her love, tend to her needs ... the sweet thing is, she has retained all her ingrained fashion habits and is an impeccable model of beauty in the home, very put together and groomed each day, a lifetime of hard wired habits not even dementia can touch -- the staff adore her and she is a role model,I smile each time I visit and marvel at her - she loves when I play Frank Sinatra for her - she dances and sings --- - but if it was me... I would want my husband to move on, make sure I was cared for, but get on with life.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

My dad died a couple of years ago from Alzheimers in his 80's. My mother took care of him at home as long as she could but eventually he went to an alzheimers facility. It was heartbreaking (and really scary for us to think about having these genes). Most people with alzheimers have been married a long time, so it is not so much like the case of a young couple where one is in an accident and has brain damage. That is a little more difficult to think about a 30 year old facing a life visiting a nursing home and never remarrying.

BUT, that said, I made vows before God that said, "for better..for worse, for richer...for poorer, in sickness and in health, as long as we both shall live" and I hope I'll be given the strength to never break them. I do not believe my husband would leave me, either. Marriage is for life (according to Christianity, with exceptions a for adultery and abandonment). I think Pat Robertson must have lost his mind.

(Congrats, Maisie!!!!)

 

[Maisie]

My dad died a couple of years ago from Alzheimers in his 80's. My mother took care of him at home as long as she could but eventually he went to an alzheimers facility. It was heartbreaking (and really scary for us to think about having these genes). Most people with alzheimers have been married a long time, so it is not so much like the case of a young couple where one is in an accident and has brain damage. That is a little more difficult to think about a 30 year old facing a life visiting a nursing home and never remarrying.

BUT, that said, I made vows before God that said, "for better..for worse, for richer...for poorer, in sickness and in health, as long as we both shall live" and I hope I'll be given the strength to never break them. I do not believe my husband would leave me, either. Marriage is for life (according to Christianity, with exceptions a for adultery and abandonment). I think Pat Robertson must have lost his mind.

(Congrats, Maisie!!!!)

Thank you! I was a bit worried about posting as I think its not very PC to talk about christianity these days.

 

[sjm]

I have not ready all the posts so I apologize if I repeat anything previously said.

I think this is a topic people often have a knee jerk reaction to and although their decision may be the same upon careful contemplation it is still requires some thought.

I think for me there are a few things to consider:
- no matter whether divorce occurs or not the partner has the responsibility to ensure proper care for the ill person
- is it better to remain married to someone who does not know who you are and have a side relationship or to give the sick person the respect of breaking the relationship before moving on? This might sound odd to some but if the ill person is sick to the point that they are unable to identify their spouse, they are likely not making decisions for themselves anyways. It is likely that they will not even understand that a divorce occurred. I would rather be shown the respect of continued care and allowing my partner to find companionship in an honest way and a level of happiness elsewhere than have him commit adultery while caring for me because im ill.
- a marriage is a partnership and although I would not suggest that one ends a marriage for all illnesses that prevent someone from being a part of the partnership, with AD, the person often is "gone". They are unable to provide their partner with anything and I think it is very difficult for elderly people who have been married for decades to suddenly be on their own, without companionship. Even worse if the AD happens to someone in their 50's or 60's where the partner providing the care is still vibrant and fully functioning and healthy.
- I would also say one does not get divorced simply because the person gets AD. Rather if the healthy partner does begin to form another relationship it would be at the point where that relationship becomes more than companionship that I think divorce could be an option.
- It is impossible for us to begin to comprehend what being in this position is like. FI and I talked about this and he basically said I don't think I could divorce you and feel OK about it and I basically told him that if I am so sick that I do not know who he is and have no capacity left, that my outer shell exists but that is all that although I would expect he cared for me (which in Canada at least, I think would be the only way the divorce is even granted - provision of care would have to exist) and respect the relationship we had but that I would also want him to be able to move on eventually and find a new normal.

Just some of the thoughts that have gone through my head!

 

[Jennifer W]

I don't know what I would do. I can take a moral stance, or the stance my (strong) faith would require of me in theory, but until I'm actually standing in that place, I don't truly know what I would do, of course I don't.

What other people do in this situation is none of my business on any level.

I wonder though, thinking about legal practicalities in my own jurisdiction, how would a person who entirely lacks capacity actually consent to (or contest a divorce, as any spouse is entitled to do under Scots law)? If he or she had a guardian, there's a third party involved in the most private of decisions, or more likely, there's a conflict of interest as the spouse seeking the divorce is also the guardian. I'm sure there is a way through it, and I suppose the long-form of Scots divorce could be granted by a Court, as it would be if the divorce was against the will of one spouse. Even that is difficult though, as the will of that spouse is not known. However it is done formally and legally, it sounds like it would be difficult and protracted and incredibly painful. Truly, I hope I never have to find out.

 

[iLander]

I watched my grandmother fade away from Alzheimers, and it took over 15 years. She started by being combative and mean, so much so that she broke up my uncle's marriage. Then she went to my other uncle's home and they took care of her until her death. She was never in an institution. My uncle is a saint and my aunt doubly so, because my grandmother was horrible to her from day one.

My grandmother got so bad, she didn't know her own name, and drooled and giggled like a toddler. Her breasts would hang out, she'd be in a diaper, she couldn't walk up stairs. She got violent and paranoid. She didn't know any of us.

What do you do if someone is literally hitting you and cursing at you?

I told my husband that if I got like that, to just put me away and don't worry about it. If something happened to him, I would take care of him as long as I was able and then I might have to get some help to bathe him, etc. If he got violent, I would have to put him in a home or put tranquilizers in his sandwich. Whatever. It's impossible to predict, but I'll do my best as all families dealing with this horror do.

My heart goes out to those families.

I don't think I'll start seeing someone else because WHAT is the point of that?!! So I can eventually take care of TWO incontinent old men? No, thanks!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

It's not my place to judge why someone decides to end their marriage. I also do not pretend to know what I would do in a situation I have never been in before. I think we are all pushed to the limits at certain points in our lives and our reactions cannot be predicted.

 

[Pandora II]

My husband's grandmother has had severe dementia for over 20 years. For the last 15 she has ceased to be the person the family knew. She has no concept of who anyone in the family is. Her husband refused to accept what was happening to her and looked after her at home, but he was 90 and it was too hard for him and it got impossible to find external care for her as she became increasingly violent and aggressive to anyone who tried to help. It was also becoming a problem in that she would do things like smear faeces all over the walls. Finally she was moved into an institution last year that has a secure area for patients with dementia.

My husband has made me promise that if he develops dementia (or any other illness that means that he doesn't have the ability to decide for himself) that when it gets to the point that he no longer has the quality of life that he would like and has lost dignity and the ability to recognise me or our children that I will make sure that he doesn't continue to live this way, I have asked him to do the same for me.

It is something we both take very seriously and there are a lot of discussions about exactly what each parts constitutes - for example if he looks perfectly happy but has no clue who we are then is that not a quality of life, and the difficulty deciding when the right time is. However, we love each other enough to face any legal consequences.

We're humanists and atheists so religion doesn't play any part in it for us.

We have also said that we would like each other to continue to have a happy life but without forgetting - so having another relationship but visiting the other in a care facility on a regular basis would be fine. Divorce would not be an option however.

 

[Maisie]

My husband's grandmother has had severe dementia for over 20 years. For the last 15 she has ceased to be the person the family knew. She has no concept of who anyone in the family is. Her husband refused to accept what was happening to her and looked after her at home, but he was 90 and it was too hard for him and it got impossible to find external care for her as she became increasingly violent and aggressive to anyone who tried to help. It was also becoming a problem in that she would do things like smear faeces all over the walls. Finally she was moved into an institution last year that has a secure area for patients with dementia.

My husband has made me promise that if he develops dementia (or any other illness that means that he doesn't have the ability to decide for himself) that when it gets to the point that he no longer has the quality of life that he would like and has lost dignity and the ability to recognise me or our children that I will make sure that he doesn't continue to live this way, I have asked him to do the same for me.

It is something we both take very seriously and there are a lot of discussions about exactly what each parts constitutes - for example if he looks perfectly happy but has no clue who we are then is that not a quality of life, and the difficulty deciding when the right time is. However, we love each other enough to face any legal consequences.

We're humanists and atheists so religion doesn't play any part in it for us.

We have also said that we would like each other to continue to have a happy life but without forgetting - so having another relationship but visiting the other in a care facility on a regular basis would be fine. Divorce would not be an option however.

Are you talking about euthanasia Pandora?

 

[maplefemme]

My husband's grandmother has had severe dementia for over 20 years. For the last 15 she has ceased to be the person the family knew. She has no concept of who anyone in the family is. Her husband refused to accept what was happening to her and looked after her at home, but he was 90 and it was too hard for him and it got impossible to find external care for her as she became increasingly violent and aggressive to anyone who tried to help. It was also becoming a problem in that she would do things like smear faeces all over the walls. Finally she was moved into an institution last year that has a secure area for patients with dementia.

My husband has made me promise that if he develops dementia (or any other illness that means that he doesn't have the ability to decide for himself) that when it gets to the point that he no longer has the quality of life that he would like and has lost dignity and the ability to recognise me or our children that I will make sure that he doesn't continue to live this way, I have asked him to do the same for me.

It is something we both take very seriously and there are a lot of discussions about exactly what each parts constitutes - for example if he looks perfectly happy but has no clue who we are then is that not a quality of life, and the difficulty deciding when the right time is. However, we love each other enough to face any legal consequences.

We're humanists and atheists so religion doesn't play any part in it for us.

We have also said that we would like each other to continue to have a happy life but without forgetting - so having another relationship but visiting the other in a care facility on a regular basis would be fine. Divorce would not be an option however.

Are you talking about euthanasia Pandora?

This is why we are vigilant at screening the values and ethics of nurses we hire....

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Well you can basically divorce your spouse for anything these days so I'm not sure how this is different? Are we speaking in the legal or moral sense?

For me it's a moral issue. Personally, as the grand daughter of someone who had AD and witnessed the toll it took on the marriage and family I STILL wouldn't divorce my spouse if he developed AD. I just wouldn't. It's wrong and in my opinion, morally reprehensible. AD leaves the person totally helpless and dependent on others. I can't believe anyone would consider leaving someone in that condition and God help them if they have children, because I can only imagine how they would react to hearing the news of one parent abandoning the other in a time of need. That's basically abandoning the family. The children need the lucid parent for support and shouldn't be expected to take care of the other parent alone. How selfish.

 

[Rhea]

Would it change anyone's mind if their partner developed Alzheimer's in their 40s vs older? I'm not sure that I could care for a partner, and potentially young children - or give up my wanting children - if my partner started developing the disease in their 40s. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd divorce or start seeing someone else. I said earlier that I have no clue what I'd do until I were there, but I do have a hard time imagining that I'd be able to cope with my partner deteriorating right as my life is starting.

 

[Matata]

I think the basic question to this very difficult issue is how to balance self-interest with self-sacrifice. Any person facing such a situation has to make a very personal decision about that. I don't subscribe to the notion that I have to sacrifice everything for a relationship.
Pandora expressed my thoughts on the issue. DH and I have had the same discussion and we are clear on our parameters for quality of life decisions.

Oregon has an assisted suicide law and we are grateful for it.

 

[Pandora II]

Yes I do mean euthanasia - whether it is travelling abroad to somewhere like Dignitas or another means we have not finished discussing yet.

I believe that I have the right to decide if I do not wish to live in a certain way - a way that I would feel did not give me a quality of life or the dignity that I would like. If my husband choses the same (which he does) then I hope I would have the strength to honour his wishes should that time come.

I can understand that many people - especially if they are religious - would not approve of this, but we don't have a belief in any higher power so it would come down to how much we trust each other.