May 1st Planned City Shutdowns...

[AGBF]

Date: 5/3/2006 5:41:17 PM
Author: MINE!!
Good question.. but Social Service cannot DENY anyone services..

If that is true in California I am surprised that all the illegal immigrants in the United States who need any kind of "welfare" are not there!!! Other states most certainly can and do deny services of all kinds to illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, and citizens for all sorts of reasons. In fact, one must stand on one''s head to obtain any service in other states! As one who has taken welfare applications in Connecticut, I KNOW what one has to prove there to get "service". Even if one has a green card one has to use his sponsor''s money to repay any welfare given by the State...if the State agrees to give welfare at all. Usually the State just goes after the sponsor!

 

[AGBF]

Date: 5/3/2006 6:13:48 PM
Author: colormyworld
Who sets policy or sets the degree to which our laws of the federal gov''t. are enforced ???

I am not clear about what you are asking. Is this a rhetorical question?

 

[rainbowtrout]

ABGF, if there is one thing I have learned it is that California is a special case...it turned my liberal family into staunch, staunch republicans on one side.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/3/2006 1:57:26 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
Questionable point: why do some equally poor groups of immigrants have such higher success rates, such as immigants from Japan and Hong Kong? Is it a cultural differance, an educational differance, or what?

rainbow
why ? b/c these immigrants aren''t poor,infact most them are very rich.they want a safety net just in case there''s a big political change for the worse.

 

[colormyworld]

Brought to you by the camdaign to elect Newt for president.

 

[rainbowtrout]

E turned me into a newt!


A Newt???!


Well, I got bettah.


(apology in advance)

 

[perry]

Who sets policy or sets the degree to which our laws of the federal gov''t. are enforced.

Great question:

Their are many different levels of enforcement, and several major players in what actually gets inforced.

On the personal level: The officer or agent who stops you normally has a wide range of discretion on what they enforce and under what circumstances. Addmittedly this has its good and bad points: What was actually happening, is it a good day or bad day for the officer or agent, does the officer or agent have a good or bad bias in your situation (either on the situation or against you or your class), is there something more urgent that needs attention, and last - but not least - how have you been treating the officer or agent.

Next up is their immediate command chain: For example: Today we are going to stop all speeders.... So lots of speeding tickets get written and other things get passed by (for today). Or perhaps: "you find me someone who steels money and I''ll through the book at them" So the focus is on finding theives.

Ultimately, from a big picture: State legislators and congress sets what gets enforced by the budget they pass. Want to enforce immegration laws - pass a budget that increases the number of border patrol agents and INS courts to here the cases. Want to reduce enforcement: don''t fund what is requested - and even cut back.

I do not belive that the US congress has been willing to fully fund an appropriate INS and border patrol to significantly reduce the illegal immegration.

Ultimately, from the big picture on controlling illegal immegration - we are getting what the congress has been so far willing to fund (or lack there of).

Perry

 

[perry]

In almost every nation of the world: an illegal immigrant is quickly booted out (or worse) except in extreemly rare cases.

Why is it that so many think that the USA should have a different policy than all the other nations - and legalize largescale continuous illegal immegration. Why is it that people think it would be "unjust" to kick them out when no one seems to accuse the other nations of being unjust when they kick out illegals?

Perry

 

[moon river]

Date: 5/3/2006 6:36:09 PM
Author: perry
In almost every nation of the world: an illegal immigrant is quickly booted out (or worse) except in extreemly rare cases.

Why is it that so many think that the USA should have a different policy than all the other nations - and legalize largescale continuous illegal immegration. Why is it that people think it would be ''unjust'' to kick them out when no one seems to accuse the other nations of being unjust when they kick out illegals?

Perry

My answer to that would be because these ''other'' countries weren''t founded as a place to make a better life. This country was. As was pointed out in another post, the irish(my ancestors) and others came here also to escape their impoverished living conditions. My family for one did not pass through Ellis Island. They landed in North Carolina and made their way across the mountains and settled in East Tennessee. Yes it was hard, but not as hard as living in Irland at that time.
And why was it the Pilgrams came here????For freedoms that weren''t allowed in their country.
This is not a new thing people. Immigration is what has made this country. Yes, it should be done legally. Just make the legal aspect the same for Mexico as it is for other countries.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 5/3/2006 6:07:57 PM
Author: AGBF


I do not know what you mean by ''different time, different issue''. You said that we didn''t need the impoverished. I pointed out that it is the impoverished who have enriched the United States. Can you imagine the United States without the Irish? The Italians (almost all of whom came from poor, southern, Italy? The Poles and Lithuanians?

What is ''different'' in all this?

The difference is the effect on the poverty stricken already here – both immigrant and soil born. Social programs implemented to help these people depend on the number of people receiving benefits. Importing poverty only increases that number of those in need. That, in turn, either raises the costs of these programs or reduces the benefits to those already here. And lets remember, that we do not heavily tax the working poor (or the nonworking poor, for that matter) – they pay very little. Yet, they are by a large amount, the recipients of the above social programs. My pocketbook doesn’t have enough to go around and is already feeling the effects of supporting my cousins (true) who keep having children to see their welfare checks increase. There was a poll by the Mexican government to their people. Over half said they would migrate to the USA if given the chance. While it would be wonderful for ALL these people to come to America, get educations and have better lives for their familes - it is hardly realistic. And at the end of the day, not our responsiblilty to provide our resources to them. Instead of standing on Wilshire Blvd. protesting the American government - perhaps they should revolt against their own, which grows exceedingly corrupty by the minute. Our resources are not limitless and we have a responsibility to give our "own" citizens the most help we can.

 

[moon river]

I can drive through my little town and in ten minutes point out at least fifty people who are born Americans that aren''t working, won''t work, and sit around having kid after kid and getting welfare for it. Why isn''t someone trying to stop them?These are the same people that complain about ''Those Mexicans takin all our jobs'' They can just get over it. These lazy rednecks wouldn''t work if I drove them there and picked them up and held their hands for the 8 hours they''re there!!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

if these illegals want to become a U.S. citizens, tell them to get in line for an interview .if they can answer those questions about U.S. history

i''ll say give them their citizenship. can you imagine if they are given a free citizenship they will have the right to vote

and most of them never heard of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson.

 

[moon river]

Date: 5/3/2006 7:01:47 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
if these illegals want to become a U.S. citizens, tell them to get in line for an interview .if they can answer those questions about U.S. history

i''ll say give them their citizenship. can you imagine if they are given a free citizenship they will have the right to vote

and most of them never heard of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson.

I''d like to see how many people that were born here could pass the citizanship test. Just watching ''Street Smarts'' makes me want to hang my head in shame.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 5/3/2006 7:00:27 PM
Author: moon river
I can drive through my little town and in ten minutes point out at least fifty people who are born Americans that aren''t working, won''t work, and sit around having kid after kid and getting welfare for it.

Something we agree on.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/3/2006 7:00:27 PM
Author: moon river
I can drive through my little town and in ten minutes point out at least fifty people who are born Americans that aren''t working, won''t work, and sit around having kid after kid and getting welfare for it. Why isn''t someone trying to stop them?These are the same people that complain about ''Those Mexicans takin all our jobs'' They can just get over it. These lazy rednecks wouldn''t work if I drove them there and picked them up and held their hands for the 8 hours they''re there!!!

that is another topic that i''am so piss off about!!!

 

[tawn]

Date: 5/3/2006 7:00:27 PM
Author: moon river
I can drive through my little town and in ten minutes point out at least fifty people who are born Americans that aren''t working, won''t work, and sit around having kid after kid and getting welfare for it. Why isn''t someone trying to stop them?These are the same people that complain about ''Those Mexicans takin all our jobs'' They can just get over it. These lazy rednecks wouldn''t work if I drove them there and picked them up and held their hands for the 8 hours they''re there!!!

We''ll have to start another discussion about Welfare Reform for this one!

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 5/3/2006 3:12:36 PM
Author: moon river
Does anyone know how hard it is to be here legally from Mexico. It seems that almost anyone from any other country can come here legally without as much of a problem. I know people personally who have gone through the process and it is rougher on those from Mexico. I even know two people from Iraq here legally and their journey was nowhere near as hard as for those from Mexico. I think the rules should be the same for everyone. I''m not saying to do anything illegal. Just make it fair, I guess I''m trying to get across. I just don''t understand a government that will let terrorist into the country and allow them to be educated on flying planes and such and let them try and destroy our country, but not let in a group of impoverished people who come from Mexico to make a better life for their family. I just don''t get it. Call me PollyAnna but I think all should be fair. God didn''t make this country for just one race. He also said ''Love thy neighbor as thyself''. I don''t want my family to starve and live in deplorable conditions and I don''t want anyone elses to either.
My point, and I do have one, is to make a law so everyone has the same chances. I also believe that our government should be helping our neighboring country as much as they help those on the other side of the world and maybe they wouldn''t have to come here for a better life. They''d already have it. Just a thought.

and this is the crux of the matter: we interfer in other countries on all hemispheres in the name of democracy and we send aid as well. however, we do not do this for our neighbor to the south with which we share a border. if any country could use a take over and rebuilding in the name of security and democracy, it could be argued that that country is mexico.

back to the US: if employers didn''t hire, they wouldn''t come. if they had jobs there, they''d stay. its simple. do what''s necessary to make sure they have jobs there. it would cost a fraction of what everyone is complaining about that it is costing us currently. i don''t think anyone says its is right that people enter illegally...but it is worth examining why. again, employers certainly aren''t complaining that they''re here......

and while the problem can''t be blamed on bush, i certainly don''t hold an illegal immigrant to a higher standard of conduct than i do the president who is a law breaker....and was in college as well but being a bush removed him from all that is ''fair'' and placed him above the law even then by virtue of his family. yes, life isn''t fair, is it?! but why hold illegal immigrants to a higher standard? he even pulled strings before he was pres for a friend tawn''s re getting her green card to make it more convenient for her to visit her baseball playing husband....come on give me a break, its sad that it was difficult to visit with him but it wasn''t really a hard ship that required preferential treatment over the really needy was it?!

immigration....legal and illegal...is going to one day be a mute point when the US, Mexico, and Canada get done with their security treaties. we''re sitting here argueing old world when the world has already turned and globalization has neutered nation states....and the US is no exception. WTO, NAFTA, GATT, et al. have changed the world in a way that most of us just can''t even begin to conceive of....and migration of work forces is one.

movie zombie

 

[monarch64]

Date: 5/3/2006 7:00:27 PM
Author: moon river
I can drive through my little town and in ten minutes point out at least fifty people who are born Americans that aren''t working, won''t work, and sit around having kid after kid and getting welfare for it. Why isn''t someone trying to stop them?These are the same people that complain about ''Those Mexicans takin all our jobs'' They can just get over it. These lazy rednecks wouldn''t work if I drove them there and picked them up and held their hands for the 8 hours they''re there!!!

Hee hee, moonriver...I swear I''m from Mayberry as well. Same scenario in my hometown, unfortunately. When I was in high school in the late ''90s one or two of the major factories in town hired a lot of hispanic workers and WOW, did all the "rednecks" go ape___! And of course the rednecks were the same people who sat around collecting unemployment while impregnating their wives again and again to receive more Welfare. It made me sick to know I, along with the new legal immigrants, was working hard and paying taxes so the bums could sit around in the local bar and complain about "the Mexicans takin all our jobs!" Yeeesh.

Most of those rednecks probably couldn''t have pointed out Mexico on a map.

 

[movie zombie]

good article re ''the problem'' and why congress isn''t getting ''the solution'' right: http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/05/03/immigration_anxiety.php


movie zombie

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 5/3/2006 7:00:27 PM
Author: moon river
I can drive through my little town and in ten minutes point out at least fifty people who are born Americans that aren''t working, won''t work, and sit around having kid after kid and getting welfare for it. Why isn''t someone trying to stop them?These are the same people that complain about ''Those Mexicans takin all our jobs'' They can just get over it. These lazy rednecks wouldn''t work if I drove them there and picked them up and held their hands for the 8 hours they''re there!!!

I take issue with your word "redneck" as this is singling out ONE group. But, it''s a true observation - which leads me to the point below as true.

I took another issue with a poster that said "big business don''t want to pay a fair wage". No - not true, business just wants the job done. I do not know the ratio of illegals to legals working - but they come here and learn a skill in the construction force. They do not take someone''s "job" at a lower pay. They complete a job with a fair wage (same wage) on time w/ proper labor force. Masons were all but a dying breed - until immigration. And, in the construction industry learning English is pushed and ends up being a natural reward. The best drywall guy doesn''t become the foreman/superintendent. The guy who can speak English moves up in the ranks.

On another note, my SIL teaches Kindergarten. She had many students speaking rudimentary, at best, English. She said these kids are like sponges & learn our language quite easily. She said they end up translating for the parents. I wonder if that will translate to reading as well.

So, I''ve followed this thread. I do not live in CA. I know the issue has FAR more impact out there. But, I''m not ambivilent - but I have mixed feeling. I do think they should learn our language. The problem is when they don''t at an early age - the schools do end up educating in spanish. And, find a way how to tax them. Property taxes are paid by the landlord - and taken off the top in the other end of rental income. The property tax impact of a renter may amount to paying a percentage of a free pencil.

 

[moon river]

Unfortunately, F&I, other than Hillbilly, redneck is about the only word to describe the people in my town I was refering to.

 

[perry]

Good article Movie Zombie; that covers about 2/3 of the various thoughts I have come up with (and not posted because I don''t want to really get sucked into this debate). I will conceed - fix those issues and most of the other issues I though of would also be fixed.

Perry

 

[movie zombie]

Perry, glad you liked it: the article articulated what i have in my head also but doesn''t seem to come out on the keyboard...

movie zombie

 

[sunkist]

Think About This

1. If you migrate to this county, you must speak the
native language.

2. You have to be a professional or an investor. No
unskilled workers allowed.

3. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, all government business will be
conducted in our language.

4. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter
how long they are here.

5. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.

6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance
programs.

7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be
an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

8. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be
okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed waterfront
property. That is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

9. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no
waving a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our
president or his policies, if you do you will be sent home.

10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be
hunted down and sent straight to jail.

Harsh, you say?

The above laws happen to be the immigration
laws of Mexico!

 

[AGBF]

Date: 5/8/2006 2:42:55 PM
Author: sunkist

The above laws happen to be the immigration

laws of Mexico!

And people are beheaded in Saudi Arabia. What is your point?

 

[sunkist]

Date: 5/9/2006 5:11:00 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 5/8/2006 2:42:55 PM

Author: sunkist


The above laws happen to be the immigration


laws of Mexico!

And people are beheaded in Saudi Arabia. What is your point?

The point is not in Saudi Arabia... For every point listed above, the opposite is true here in the US. America is very accepting of immigrants. We welcome them and they can earn their rights and priveledges as a citizen if they live the laws of the land like all other citizens. Anyone who thinks we don''t welcome immigrants with open arms should think again. I''m just sick of Mexico telling that us we need to allow their citizens to freely flow into the US. And if we don''t we are being "racist"??? No way. They obviously run their country the way they want to. It''s not working too great, but that''s their problem. We can help if they want. The US is always trying to help other countries. But the solution is not to let Mexico take over any aspect of the US. Then we''ll become a mess just like they are.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 5/9/2006 10:27:23 PM
Author: sunkist
The point is not in Saudi Arabia...

The point is not in Mexico, either. US policy should not be modelled on that of the most atavistic other countries of the world.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 5/10/2006 7:12:35 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 5/9/2006 10:27:23 PM
Author: sunkist
The point is not in Saudi Arabia...

The point is not in Mexico, either. US policy should not be modelled on that of the most atavistic other countries of the world.

Her point, which I got, was the irony of it all. When we are talking illegals - most are from Mexico. That''s a fact & not a racist remark.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 5/10/2006 9:08:51 AM
Author: fire&ice
Her point, which I got, was the irony of it all. When we are talking illegals - most are from Mexico. That's a fact; not a racist remark.

"Getting" her point was easy. Agreeing with it was impossible.

Where is the irony in the United States (despite its faults) is a bastion of freedom, superior to many other countries rife with corruption (Mexico) and primitive punishments (Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Singapore, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera)?

Why lower ourselves to compare ourselves with Mexico (or Saudi Arabia or North Korea)?

Why not, instead, remember the US at its best, when we believed we should accept the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free"?

Deb...once a history teacher, always a history teacher

 

[AGBF]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

EMMA LAZARUS​