One of the best padparadscha info I found.

[zhuzhu]

What is the TRUE Padparadscha?

Enjoy!

 

[velouriaL]

Gorgeous!
Though I have to admit, I think I prefer (though I've never seen it IRL) a slightly browner color. I think that's how I'd describe it... Maybe I'm in the minority, though. It's more of a personal preference than a judgment of fine gems...

I really like these two spinels from Tan, for example:


I actually like this color the best

and then this one

Just talking padparadscha color, not necessarily sapphires

 

[Barrett]

thanks for the link zhu..reading it I was looking at the stones..the first ring pic (first 2 pics) and the second ring pics (2 of them)..not the booch..those look just like pinkish-red or reddish-pink sapphires to me..now scroll down to the loer pics or the 3 stones next to each other..i think one is a BE and the other 2 are something else..that far right one is similar to what i think of when i hear pad and/or the one or two Zeolite has posted before..anyone else''s thoughts?

 

[LD]

Date: 4/11/2010 4:56:56 PM
Author: amethystguy
thanks for the link zhu..reading it I was looking at the stones..the first ring pic (first 2 pics) and the second ring pics (2 of them)..not the booch..those look just like pinkish-red or reddish-pink sapphires to me..now scroll down to the loer pics or the 3 stones next to each other..i think one is a BE and the other 2 are something else..that far right one is similar to what i think of when i hear pad and/or the one or two Zeolite has posted before..anyone else''s thoughts?

Absolutely agree. The top couple of photos look like BE sapphires sold as Pads on shopping channels.

I love it when you can clearly see the pink/orange - not just one block of colour. The tulips recently posted are exactly the colour I look for in a Pad. For me if they''re too brown, too orange, too pink, etc they''re not Pads (for me) although they''d hit the mark for others.

T''Gal''s oval Pad is a gorgeous mix of pink and orange.

 

[Barrett]

I, like LD mentioned, prefer the stones where you clearly see orange and pink seperate..that is not the true definition I don't think of a pad but thats what i like persoanlly..now as far as a solid block color mix of pink and orange..and I have showed this before and most of you have seen it..Ed at wildfish gems and his pad crystal..that sucker to me has as close to or is the optimum solid pad color there is...tell me that color is not sweet www.wildfishgems.com

 

[marcy]

I would take any of the above color.

 

[LD]

Date: 4/11/2010 5:30:49 PM
Author: amethystguy
I, like LD mentioned, prefer the stones where you clearly see orange and pink seperate..that is not the true definition I don''t think of a pad but thats what i like persoanlly..now as far as a solid block color mix of pink and orange..and I have showed this before and most of you have seen it..Ed at wildfish gems and his pad crystal..that sucker to me has as close to or is the optimum solid pad color there is...tell me that color is not sweet www.wildfishgems.com

OMG - Amguy please buy it, facet it and then propose to me with it!

 

[Barrett]

I have tried to buy it before but we couldn''t agree on a price..of course i wanted to pay way to little for what it''s worth..so..was probably insulting to ed, my offer..lol..a full sapphire crystal of that color..can''t get much rarer than that..is def. worth a good deal of money

 

[oddoneout]

Thanks for the article. I must admit I mostly just admired the pictures.

 

[T L]

Actually this is the official definition of padparadscha.

Padparadscha is a pink-orange corundum, with a low to medium saturation and light tone. It can be heated, but not be-heated or synthetic. It can be from any origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapphire

A padparadscha cannot be vivid in color even though that article states that they can sometimes be vivid.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/11/2010 8:29:23 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Actually this is the official definition of padparadscha.


Padparadscha is a pink-orange corundum, with a low to medium saturation and light tone. It can be heated, but not be-heated or synthetic. It can be from any origin.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapphire


A padparadscha cannot be vivid in color even though that article states that they can sometimes be vivid.

The problem with the OFFICIAL definition you have supplied is that there is a contradiction there. Above all a padparadscha (your welcome) by all accounts I have seen clearly state that padpardscha should have no brown, and there is the rub. Red and pink hues in lower saturations are perceived as brownish. (slightly brownish for a 2 saturation and very slightly brownish with a 3 saturation) Can you please explain this paradox?

 

[T L]

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/of-padparadschas-and-colour.127730/

 

[colormyworld]

Too me the link seems to indicate that tone and hue should be the defining variable. Not saturation.
Wouldn't you agree?

 

[T L]

Date: 4/11/2010 10:24:26 PM
Author: colormyworld
Too me the link seems to indicate that tone and hue should be the defining variable. Not saturation.
Wouldn''t you agree?

Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/11/2010 10:29:36 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/11/2010 10:24:26 PM

Author: colormyworld

Too me the link seems to indicate that tone and hue should be the defining variable. Not saturation.

Wouldn't you agree?

Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation.

So a vivid saturation must be at least a 6 tone? While I agree that saturation adds tone. Some hues more that others. Hue IMO in its purest form is devoid of brown or black (gray) that really add to tone. So in my world (I guess population one) you can have a vivid padparadscha. I am still looking for the one padparadscha that costs LESS just because it is vividly saturated with a medium light tone. Can you please point me in the right direction. Or is there no such thing by definition?

 

[T L]

Date: 4/11/2010 10:49:12 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/11/2010 10:29:36 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/11/2010 10:24:26 PM

Author: colormyworld

Too me the link seems to indicate that tone and hue should be the defining variable. Not saturation.

Wouldn''t you agree?

Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation.

So a vivid saturation must be at least a 6 tone? While I agree that saturation adds tone. Some hues more that others. Hue IMO in its purest form is devoid of brown or black (gray) that really add to tone. So in my world (I guess population one) you can have a vivid padparadscha. I am still looking for the one padparadscha that costs LESS just because it is vividly saturated with a medium light tone. Can you please point me in the right direction. Or is there no such thing by definition?

CMW,
There is no such thing by definition. If you want a strongly saturated orange/pink sapphire, there is a vendor list at the top of this forum, and you can inquire with one of the vendors listed. Maybe David Weinberg might be able to source one for you, and I think Wildfish might have some as well.

 

[colormyworld]

Thank you TL for keeping us properly informed.

 

[zeolite]

By the strict, accepted definition presented by Robert Crowningshield (and endorsed by GIA), the pictures in this article (what is the TRUE Padparadscha) are wildly inaccurate. The writer is attempting to pass himself off as an authority, but meanwhile, he is not even paying attention to what Crowningshield wrote.

The first picture is an intense and beautiful PINK sapphire. It is not a padparadscha. The 4 sapphires surrounding the green ammolite are far too intense and dark to pass as padparadscha. The pink cushion stone shown first in the ring and then loose, is at least 90% pink. The intense red-orange stone with yellow highlights is far too intense to be a padparadscha, and is showing yellow. I would say that it resembles the 98 ct sapphire in the New York Museum of Natural History, which was considered padparadscha color by the definition of 1910. The only padparadscha pictures in the whole article, are two of the three at the very bottom. They are of very poor color, but at least they are pastel and delicate.

Crowningshield wrote: …light to medium tones of pinkish orange (my comment: mostly orange with some pink) to orange-pink (my comment: equal parts pink and orange). Notice he did not say orangish-pink (mostly pink with some orange), because he did not consider that to be padparadscha.

Below is a composite picture. On the left is the 30ct padparadscha ring, surrounded by diamonds and blue sapphires. This stone is considered to be the finest single example of the present day definition of padparadscha. I saw this ring at a Sotheby auction in the late 1980’s, handled it, and examined it with a loupe. It was expected to bring $250,000. I considered selling my house and buying it. But then I’d be living in a tent. It did not sell, at least not during the auction. I didn’t have to move to a tent.

TL: A padparadscha cannot be vivid in color even though that article states that they can sometimes be vivid. I agree.

TL: Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation. I disagree; here’s why:

The shield cut padparadscha on the right of the composite picture is my 0.94ct gem. Keen observers will note it is slightly more saturated and deeper in tone than I have shown before. The color is as accurate as I can get it in Photoshop, while illuminating it with GE Reveal incandescent bulbs. But while the tone and the pinkish orange color are correct, the color saturation is higher in the actual gem, and it is more beautiful than my picture shows. That is why I say that tone and color can match, yet the gem can still posses more or less saturation in that same equal tone and color.

Be aware of the light you are examining gems with. I had my shield padparadscha right next to a similar sized and somewhat similar pear sapphire while viewing under my normal compact fluorescent ceiling light. I was tuning the picture to my gem in Photoshop. I didn’t recognize the somewhat orangy pear. I tuned on the GE Reveal bulb, and the orangy pear was instantly transformed to an intense purplish pink pear, radically different in color from the padparadscha. Fluorescents have so little red, that the padparadscha and the purplish pink sapphire appeared to be almost the same color!

 

[velouriaL]

those are GORGEOUS, zeolite!

To my eyes, though, they have what I would describe as a brown cast, somewhat similar to the first spinel I posted above, although it is not simultaneously as delicate and intense.

Perhaps what I am identifying as "brown" is actually just warmth of color?

 

[T L]

Date: 4/12/2010 12:46:28 AM
Author: zeolite

TL: Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation. I disagree; here’s why:

The shield cut padparadscha on the right of the composite picture is my 0.94ct gem. Keen observers will note it is slightly more saturated and deeper in tone than I have shown before. The color is as accurate as I can get it in Photoshop, while illuminating it with GE Reveal incandescent bulbs. But while the tone and the pinkish orange color are correct, the color saturation is higher in the actual gem, and it is more beautiful than my picture shows. That is why I say that tone and color can match, yet the gem can still posses more or less saturation in that same equal tone and color.

Mr. Zeolite,
On the upper and lower echelons of the tone scale, where a gem is either very very light, or very very dark in tone, it simply cannot be too saturated because levels of extinction (too dark in tone) or lack of color (too light in tone) simply cannot make for a vivid gem. Even the GIA gemset will not have vivid saturation for the upper and lower tones in this gemewizard example. In the mid tiers of tone, there can be vivid saturation. I consider your gem to be within those mid tiers of tone, and that's why you are able to see more saturation to your eye.

 

[T L]

Date: 4/12/2010 1:34:00 AM
Author: velouriaL
those are GORGEOUS, zeolite!


To my eyes, though, they have what I would describe as a brown cast, somewhat similar to the first spinel I posted above, although it is not simultaneously as delicate and intense.


Perhaps what I am identifying as 'brown' is actually just warmth of color?

I agree, and I also see brown in the spinels that you posted from Tan. What is very very difficult from what I've seen, is to find a padparadscha color that lacks some degree of brown, especially in lieu of the fact that a padparadscha must be lacking in saturation. I personally don't get that, especially for the prices that these gems go for. I have a padparadscha colored spinel, that looks very pinkish/orange with a lesser degree of saturation and very little brown, but I must say, I prefer more vivid tones. I purchased it, not so much because I loved the color, but because I wanted to have it in my collection as a rarity/oddity, and it was much more affordable than a true padparadscha sapphire.

 

[chrono]

I was all excited to click on the link for some gorgeous padparadscha sapphires but instead all I saw are pink, but nonetheless, very nice looking pink sapphires. There’s hardly any orange in those and the orange sapphire that is 4th down looks to be beryllium diffused.

 

[LD]

Thank you Zeolite for your wonderful contribution (as always) to a great debate - not to mention your gorgeous photos that make threads very very pleasant viewing!

I also see brown in the photos you posted (less so in the right hand gem and more in your shield cut). I doubt from your description that it''s there but if it is, for me, that wouldn''t be what I would look for in a Padparadscha. Although let''s be honest, I certainly would love to have it in my collection as it''s a superb looking gem!

It''s clear from each thread on this forum that discusses the "right" colour for a Padparadscha that people don''t agree on what consitutes the correct colour. Yes, we all know that it should be a mix of pink and orange - but then people post up photos and we see brown, purple, deep hot pink and all other shades! Indeed, even the experts appear to disagree which makes it incredibly frustrating for everybody!

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/12/2010 8:03:10 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/12/2010 12:46:28 AM

Author: zeolite

TL: Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation. I disagree; here’s why:

The shield cut padparadscha on the right of the composite picture is my 0.94ct gem. Keen observers will note it is slightly more saturated and deeper in tone than I have shown before. The color is as accurate as I can get it in Photoshop, while illuminating it with GE Reveal incandescent bulbs. But while the tone and the pinkish orange color are correct, the color saturation is higher in the actual gem, and it is more beautiful than my picture shows. That is why I say that tone and color can match, yet the gem can still posses more or less saturation in that same equal tone and color.

Mr. Zeolite,

On the upper and lower echelons of the tone scale, where a gem is either very very light, or very very dark in tone, it simply cannot be too saturated because levels of extinction (too dark in tone) or lack of color (too light in tone) simply cannot make for a vivid gem. Even the GIA gemset will not have vivid saturation for the upper and lower tones in this gemewizard example. In the mid tiers of tone, there can be vivid saturation. I consider your gem to be within those mid tiers of tone, and that''s why you are able to see more saturation to your eye.

Tourmaline lover, Nice graphic on tone and saturation. As I said above some hues will add more tone than others. Since we are discussing padparadschas. Could you please post a similar graphic for those hues.

 

[LD]

Date: 4/13/2010 5:23:34 AM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 4/12/2010 8:03:10 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 4/12/2010 12:46:28 AM

Author: zeolite

TL: Tone is related to saturation. If something is too light or dark in tone, it will also lack saturation. I disagree; here’s why:

The shield cut padparadscha on the right of the composite picture is my 0.94ct gem. Keen observers will note it is slightly more saturated and deeper in tone than I have shown before. The color is as accurate as I can get it in Photoshop, while illuminating it with GE Reveal incandescent bulbs. But while the tone and the pinkish orange color are correct, the color saturation is higher in the actual gem, and it is more beautiful than my picture shows. That is why I say that tone and color can match, yet the gem can still posses more or less saturation in that same equal tone and color.

Mr. Zeolite,

On the upper and lower echelons of the tone scale, where a gem is either very very light, or very very dark in tone, it simply cannot be too saturated because levels of extinction (too dark in tone) or lack of color (too light in tone) simply cannot make for a vivid gem. Even the GIA gemset will not have vivid saturation for the upper and lower tones in this gemewizard example. In the mid tiers of tone, there can be vivid saturation. I consider your gem to be within those mid tiers of tone, and that''s why you are able to see more saturation to your eye.

Tourmaline lover, Nice graphic on tone and saturation. As I said above some hues will add more tone than others. Since we are discussing padparadschas. Could you please post a similar graphic for those hues.

Perhaps CMW you could give us the benefit of your experience? Rather than continually challenging TL (which you seem to be doing with frequency) you could do some research and find a graphic you would prefer everybody to see that you feel is more appropriate?

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/11/2010 10:00:13 PM
Author: colormyworld
The problem with the OFFICIAL definition you have supplied is that there is a contradiction there. Above all a padparadscha (your welcome) by all accounts I have seen clearly state that padpardscha should have no brown, and there is the rub. Red and pink hues in lower saturations are perceived as brownish. (slightly brownish for a 2 saturation and very slightly brownish with a 3 saturation) Can you please explain this paradox?

CMW,
Do you mind sharing your source(s) clearly stating that a padparadscha should have no brown? I am very curious because a majority of stones I’ve seen accompanied by a lab memo defined as a padparadscha seem to have varying degrees of a brown tint.

 

[T L]

CMW,
You can see the available swatches for yourself on www.gemewizard.com. All the ones you can click on have saturation levels (x-axis) missing for the very light and very dark tones (y-axis). All of the swatches had this same variance, and they used to all be clickable, but gemewizard has locked down many so they could sell software I would imagine.

 

[Barrett]

so just thinking here..def. of the color brown: Brown is a color term, denoting a range of composite colors produced by a mixture of orange, red, rose, yellow with black or gray
so mixing orange and red or rose with black or gray makes brown..so mixing orange and pink(which by def. is pale red) with balck or gray you get brown....on zeo''s stone to find the true hue, sat. and tone you look to the areas with the internal luster showing which would be those 3 or 4 pavilion facets right at the cutlet..now those show no brown to me..those are the true colors of the stone..as you go out from there you get some areas of extinction..whats color is extinction?? Black..so mix the color of the stone which is orange and pink(pale red) with the black areas of extinction directly adjacent and you get brown..not the true color as thats those areas of "internal luster" which have the light coming directly in from the table/crown and hitting the pavilion and coming back out directly to the eye....yes ..no?

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 4/13/2010 7:46:28 AM
Author: Chrono

Date: 4/11/2010 10:00:13 PM
Author: colormyworld
The problem with the OFFICIAL definition you have supplied is that there is a contradiction there. Above all a padparadscha (your welcome) by all accounts I have seen clearly state that padpardscha should have no brown, and there is the rub. Red and pink hues in lower saturations are perceived as brownish. (slightly brownish for a 2 saturation and very slightly brownish with a 3 saturation) Can you please explain this paradox?

CMW,
Do you mind sharing your source(s) clearly stating that a padparadscha should have no brown? I am very curious because a majority of stones I’ve seen accompanied by a lab memo defined as a padparadscha seem to have varying degrees of a brown tint.

The name 'padparadscha sapphire' shall not be applied in the following cases:

If the stone has any colour modifier other than pink or orange.
From the same source Tourmaline Lover is using. Is brown a modifer?

Link http://www.gubelinlab.com/pdf/LMHC_InformationSheet_4_Padparadscha.pdf

 

[T L]

CMW,
Both brown and grey are modifiers of saturation. Stones on the cool side tend to have grey as a modifier, and stones on the warm side tend to have brown as a modifier. Since padparadschas have a warm hue, red-orange, they would have brown as a modifier.

http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Color_grading