Overwhelmed looking for a high quality sapphire

[sebas]

This is one of the sapphires I saw that I liked, except I don't know if the black I am seeing is extinction.

 

[sebas]

Here are some of the other sapphires that I have looked at.

 

[sebas]

Another view of the extinction.

 

[chrono]

Some explanation and pictures showing extinction and zoning:
http://www.palagems.com/quality_4cs.htm

When moving the gemstone around, observe how much of the stone looks black. This areas of black reflection are called extinction areas. 1/2 is quite a lot and would only tempt me if the colour is exceptional and the price is low enough.

 

[sebas]

Here are video links to some of the sapphires at local jewelers that I think are nice. Please be critical (color, brilliance, extinctions, pricing).

2.87 carats, oval, 8.61 x 6.88mm, $6888, natural and unheated: http://youtu.be/U6K-XtZ6jNQ

~1.57 carats, round, ~$3000: http://youtu.be/T8bykeMFhC4

~1.95 carats, oval, ~$5000: http://youtu.be/NQFeZssy6Lg

2.16 carats, 7.80 x 6.42mm, $5184 and 2.20 carats, 7.82 x 6.74mm, $4620 http://youtu.be/a8YXdsNu9Mk

I will post a few more videos of 2 other sapphires tomorrow.

 

[chrono]

2.87 carats, oval, 8.61 x 6.88mm, $6888, natural and unheated
Very pretty blue with excellent saturation. On the downside, the extinction is also great. Worse yet, once the lighting condition changed, the stone became a black hole. Not a stone I would consider, especially at that price, even though it is the nicest of all those shown.

1.57 carats, round, $3000
Decent looking blue and is it untreated? Even if it is, that's quite expensive. How does it look once the lighting condition is changed? Not as pretty as the first sapphire though.

1.95 carats, oval, $5000
Is $5K for the stone alone or the entire ring? Unheated as well? The sapphire looks very dark, showing only flashes of blue. My preference is to see more blue than dark areas.

2.16 carats, 7.80 x 6.42mm, $5184 and 2.20 carats, 7.82 x 6.74mm, $4620
I am sorry but all 3 look like black holes to me too.

 

[sebas]

Hi Chrono, this is extremely helpful! I felt the same way but just didn't know if this is all I can expect from sapphires. I think the 1.57ct is untreated and looked the same under all lighting conditions I tested (overcast light, fluorescent light). I thought the price was cheap because it was only about $1.5k/ct whereas many are ~$2-2.5k/ct. The 1.95ct is also untreated. The 1.95ct is $5k just for the stone. I'm assuming that I'm taking the video correctly and that there is no special "trick" to make it look better.

Here is a video that was sent to me from an online supplier. The sapphire is 2.35ct, unheated, 8.38 x 7.01 mm oval, $5875:
http://youtu.be/gGrztmsEwjw and http://youtu.be/yfL22Gx5TpQ

I'll post the other 2 sapphires in a little bit.

 

[chrono]

$1.5k/ct is rather steep for that 1.57 ct size and saturation. The rest are more because there is a price jump at the 2 ct mark. Where is that 1.95 ct vendor getting his $5K pricing?

Video taping, like photography, should not require special tricks. Just a steady hand, good angle and enough light so that one can see clearly. Don't get too close to the stone or you'll cast a head shadow on it, which some often mistake for extinction.

The 2.35 ct oval looks very promising. Colour is very pretty but I can't get a good look to see if it is flat topped or has a high crown. I'm also not sure of the lights used but think one of the videos show a mixture of indoor and outdoor lighting?

 

[sebas]

Thanks Chrono! All the prices are from local jewelers. I have not started to order from online vendors, but I am thinking of ordering some this weekend now that I have a better sense of what things look like. I agree that the 2.35ct looks promising. It is from an online vendor and so I can order it and see it in person. Here are the other videos of the other sapphires I took from local jewelers:

2.7cts, oval, 8.63 (l) x 6.64 (w) x 5.69 (d), heated, an eye visible inclusion on the side visible from the top, $2100: http://youtu.be/A0_EA8a7t1I

These were all a little over 2cts, oval, heated, haven't heard back on prices: http://youtu.be/aoImnV8_FEM

Picture is of 2.7cts oval in first video. Opinion? I asked if they can find one similar to it but without eye visible inclusion. I guess that would jump the price up to $4-5k.

 

[sebas]

Chrono > I have seen some that are flat topped before. Is this a bad thing?

 

[chrono]

If you are looking for a lively and sparkly sapphire, or any stone for that matter, a higher crown is more likely to give you that effect over a flat topped stone.

 

[chrono]

The 2.7 ct oval looks pretty but that price is steep for a heated stone with eye visible inclusions. How obvious is it?

The second video did not look promising at all. The stones are overly dark even though the blue is pretty.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Maybe its just been a while since I was shopping for a blue sapphire but these prices are killing me. I keep forgetting these stones are at retail stores which explains the high pricing.

All I can do is echo Chrono's comments on the most resent stones. My monitor is showing the same issues.

~Justin

 

[Coco914]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually like darker sapphires... Are you leaning toward a deeper royal blue? It seems that most of the stones you've posted are darker in color and I'm not sure if that's because you favor these stones or because that's all you're being shown? Without viewing them close up, it's difficult to ascertain how well they're cut or whether or not they have visible inclusions. The photo of the sapphire that has very noticible extinction also seems to have quite a bit of violet/purple in it to my eye... I think, if you are looking for a darker blue, you can find a nicely sized sapphire in that size range and color a for a lot less that the prices you're being quoted if you look online. Just some thoughts...

I'm enjoying your search!

 

[sebas]

Justin, Chrono, and Coco, thanks for your replies.

I'll be going to Africa Gems on Tuesday, so hopefully I will see something nicer and better priced. I thought the prices were decent because I saw that Richard Wise was charging much more, but I haven't seen his sapphires firsthand.

Do you guys have some "homemade" videos of the type of sapphire I should be shooting for? For instance, a video of the nice sapphire that Justin purchased? This way I can compare and/or send the video to the people around here or online so they know what to find for me.

Thanks!

 

[sebas]

Chrono - the 2.7ct visible inclusion was pretty obvious after I had spotted it with the loupe. I could then spot it ever time I looked at it with my eyes. I thought it was super cheap at $2100, but I guess that a visible inclusion and heated really makes it much cheaper.

 

[sebas]

I noticed a reputable online vendor has some sapphires that are "loupe clean." Is it possible to have a natural sapphire that is loupe clean or could it be that it is manmade?

 

[emcee]

Hi Sebas,

Loupe clean natural (i.e. not synthetic) sapphires are certainly possible, just very rare. Here's a very good explanation of clarity in colored stones: http://www.ajsgem.com/articles/clarity-grading-colored-gems.html

On the FAQ page of AJS's site, they also explain the clarity ratings a bit further:

All our gems are accurately graded for clarity.

Loupe Clean: When looking into the stone using a 10x's magnification loupe the stone is inclusion free.
Almost Loupe Clean: When looking into the stone using a 10x's magnification loupe the stone may have some small inclusions that can only be seen using 10x's magnification.
Eye Clean: Inclusions inside the gemstone are not visible without magnification.
Very Very Slightly Included: The gemstone has small inclusions inside that are hard to see or can only be seen from certain angles.
Very Slightly Included: The gemstone has small inclusions that are visible only on close inspection.
Slightly Included: The gemstone has small inclusions that are visible to the eye but not easily seen.
Moderately Included: The gemstone has more pronounced inclusions that are visible.
Included: The gemstone has many visible inclusions.
Please note: Clarity grading is done when looking closely at loose unset gemstones. Setting gemstones often hides many if not all of the inclusions.

Important Note: All gemstone are not created equal what is acceptable in one stone maybe unacceptable in another. For example, Burma Ruby is usually much more included than Blue or Yellow Sapphire and Rubellite Tourmaline is commonly much more included than other Tourmalines.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Justin, Chrono, and Coco, thanks for your replies.

I'll be going to Africa Gems on Tuesday, so hopefully I will see something nicer and better priced. I thought the prices were decent because I saw that Richard Wise was charging much more, but I haven't seen his sapphires firsthand.

Do you guys have some "homemade" videos of the type of sapphire I should be shooting for? For instance, a video of the nice sapphire that Justin purchased? This way I can compare and/or send the video to the people around here or online so they know what to find for me.

Thanks!

sebas, unfortunately I don't have any videos of my sapphire out of the setting. I will look around and see if I can find something that could help.

~Justin

 

[sebas]

Thanks Emcee and Justin!

Emcee > looks like we are in the same search. Hopefully we are helping each other out as we learn what's good and what's not.

Justin > A video would be very helpful.

So I ran into another local jeweler and found this sapphire in a setting. The sapphire is 2.39ct, round, and they will let me know in a few days if it is heated or unheated. It looks to be eye clean. The price for the sapphire alone is ~$6500 and for the sapphire in setting it is $8700. Let me know what you think of the sapphire (I think this is better than the others in terms of sparkle, color, etc.) As always, please feel free to be very critical. Video: http://youtu.be/qffFzRmiqtY

 

[emcee]

No problem!

The color and scintillation in that stone are fantastic! You'll hear from others much more knowledgeable than me, but I think there is quite a large window in the center of the stone. The price is also very high too. Even if it had no window, I wouldn't be willing to pay that much for that stone (maybe $4000 max). Is there any reason you're sticking with local jewelers for the stone? I started out my search looking locally too, but most everything I found locally was inky and overpriced.

 

[emcee]

Oh, I am referring to heated stones when I mention that price. Most of the stones I have been looking at are heated so I'm not sure how much you should expect to pay if it were unheated. It's strange that they would quote you a price without knowing whether it was heated or unheated though.

 

[wordie89]

Sebas and Emcee, I've enjoyed following your treasure hunt, learning a little more each time.

I like the color from the last video but think the price is high.... and while the setting is simple and elegant looking, $2200 additional seems excessive.

If you want to search out gently worn semi mounts I think you'll find better value. I have a platinum band with 10 channel set diamonds tcw .50 and it was about $1500. I just found an 18k wg semi mount with 4 graduated side diamonds tcw 1.01 and that's priced at $1850.

I hope my info gives you another perspective on the cost of the settings as you search for the bright blue one! It's out there somewhere.

 

[sebas]

HI Emcee and Wordie89 > thanks for your comments. I figured that everyone would say it is overpriced and I agree! Maybe it is unheated in which case it might be only slightly overpriced. I personally prefer going with better quality and heated than lesser quality and unheated. I noticed a little bit of windowing through the middle and pointed it out to the person helping me. She agreed, but said it was quite small and that one wouldn't notice on the finger. To be honest, I saw some other sapphires out there that had huge windows and others that had no window, but lacked sparkle and color. I'm still looking hard though and hopefully the local jewelers won't give up on me.

Emcee > I really want to start looking at the online vendors, especially how one local jeweler slipped that she was ordering from Pala International. Other local jewelers say they have "sources" they have worked for many years, but never say what these sources are... I'm sure it is the usual online vendors in some cases. Despite all of this, two online vendors I contacted already told me that I should go look at local jewelers since I am looking to evaluate several. I quote one response:

"It sounds like you are planning to get a number of blue sapphires for evaluation.

I suggest that you look at a number of gems at retail jewelers. If you don't find something you like, please come back to us and we'll find you a sapphire that will delight you. We supply many retail jewelers and gem dealers, and you may see some of our gems in your search. You'll pay more through the channel, but you'll have a chance to see the gems in person. We're sorry we don't send gems out for evaluation, but when you're ready to make a purchase we'll be glad to help you."

So frankly I'm not sure what to do because I can't judge a sapphire from an online picture especially seeing how I myself can take pictures of one sapphire and get very different impression. I also heard from a local jeweler that they photoshop the pictures, so who knows. I've also looked into some reputable people, but they seem to have limited supply of sapphires and sometimes they seem quite expensive (you can guess).

Thoughts on how to proceed with online vendors?

 

[minousbijoux]

I really like the hue and saturation of that most recent stone in the video, BUT I would like to know what lighting was on the stone. Jewelry store lighting compliments many stones and I would want to know how that stone performs in sunlight and fluorescent light. The stone is not windowed at all. I tend to agree that its a high price, particularly for a heated stone, but then again, if the stone holds its color in other lighting situations, it has both strong saturation and good scintillation, a combination that is not easy to come by...

 

[chrono]

Although I cannot make out the details of the cut, two things made me pause. Firstly, why is there a dark circle on the outside rim in the faraway shot. Secondly, I think the stone might be flat topped with a window. I cannot determIne the size though but it's not a good thing if it can be seen when the stone is set. The other more important red flag is their willingness to quote such a high piece without knowing if the stone has been treated. If heated, that's very pricey!

I refuse to buy from online vendors who balk at hand shots. I also don't understand what the one vendor meant by not sending out for you to look at it. If he is that unwilling, I'd rather look elsewhere. What if you don't like what he sent you? How is the return policy? Make sure you aren't charged a restocking fee. With Pala, you have to order through a jeweller and each one has their own mark up pricing.

 

[VapidLapid]

I think the last stone, while a nice color, has a window, and perhaps some cloudiness that they are trying to conceal with the out of focus video. All the sparkle seems to be coming off the surface of the crown facets and nothing from inside.

 

[minousbijoux]

Sorry - we cross posted there.

What many of us do when online shopping is purchase one or two stones and then return them if they aren't what we seek. You've absolutely done the right thing to see a number of them in hand locally, so you've probably got a fairly good idea of size, shape, hue, tone and saturation. I don't know of one recommended vendor/precision cutter on the vendor pinned thread list that wouldn't allow you to return stones if not pleasing to you. In all likelihood, the tradeoff for the inconvenience of returning a few gems is that you'll get what you want, likely better cut than you'll find locally and for what appears to be less money.

Forgive me if I've already said this to you - feels a little like I'm proselytizing!

 

[sebas]

Hi everyone! Thanks for your inputs!

For clarification, I took the video and pictures of all these stones. So the blurriness of the last video is simply from my iPhone camera having a hard time focusing (although it looks less blurry when played on my iPhone).

I do think there is a little bit of windowing. And I do see the blackness around the edge of the round sapphire. What I will do is take another video and more pictures mid next week. I'll also make sure to check it out under different lighting conditions. I don't recall the store having any special lights and there was a big window with lots of natural light coming in. I should get clarification about whether it is heated or unheated. If it is heated I will point out that I think it is overpriced given the limitations. To be honest, she quoted the sapphire but it was in a setting so probably she marked up the price. I actually happen to stumble on this place today after lunch and was greeted very nicely by them. We'll see...

I've been in touch with Jeff White and Richard Wise and Andrew ???. There time and current supply of sapphires seems to be limited.

 

[sebas]

To get an idea, what would be a good price for that last 2.39ct sapphire if a) heated or b) unheated? Everyone agrees that it is overpriced, but I would love to get a sense of what it should be priced at.