Overwhelmed looking for a high quality sapphire

[Justin_Cutter]

Thanks Chrono, I appreciate your input, and that makes sense to me.
~Justin

 

[sebas]

Thanks Justin and Chrono for wonderful feedback and patience. I really appreciate it.

I thought I would narrow one the ones I am considering. I now included new videos under different lighting conditions and one additional large oval.

1) $5100, small oval, unheated, very small eye visible needle inclusion on the side of table (need to know it is there to see it), 2.02ct., 7.77 x 6.22 x 4.96 mm.

2) $3200, medium oval, heated, not considering because too light/washed out in office lighting.

3) $5450, large oval, heated, three fingerprint inclusions on table, but not very visible, 3+ct, about 10 x 8 x 4.9 mm.

Videos for 1-3:
Showroom with LED white spotlights: (small) http://youtu.be/TxsV_yDwvPI and (small + large) http://youtu.be/v32xmiXcY0s
Outside in daylight (around 1pm): (small, med, + large) http://youtu.be/sXNvji2HYjs
Office lighting: (small, med, + large) http://youtu.be/UlE5t9C01Xs

4) $6100, oval, heated, very small visible inclusion on pavilion and one on edge of table that could be hidden by prong (need to know it is there to see it), 2.45ct, 8.3 x 6.75 x 5.54mm

5) $5150, cushion, heated, small eye visible inclusion on table (close to center), 2.06ct, 7.5 x 6.28 x 5.17mm

Videos for 4-5:
Showroom with daylight mimic spotlights: (oval) http://youtu.be/W4U51kejfNI and (oval + cushion) http://youtu.be/neseTfexRfo
Showroom to Outside in daylight (around 4pm): (oval + cushion) http://youtu.be/L8OcWZ4_tEw

 

[distracts]

I like stone 1 best.

 

[sebas]

This video works:

Outside in daylight (around 1pm): (small, med, + large) http://youtu.be/GY3ge8kqUmc

 

[Justin_Cutter]

1. Looks to have the most even color.

Which stone do you find yourself gravitating to?

~Justin

 

[sebas]

I'm drawn to #1 the best as well.

I was told that the large oval #3 was the same color as #1 and it was much bigger for very little extra cost (but heated). However, the sparkle was very different. The faceting is proportional the the size of the sapphire and so I think that the sparkles were bigger. I didn't like that as much.

I think oval #4 was beautiful in the showroom lighting, but it was darker and so didn't look as good outdoors.

So is $5,100 a rip off or acceptable for #1? I have to consider time and effort, so if I were to start ordering online and found one that was the same, would I save $1000, $2000? I can try to ask that person to get others similar to it but heated and maybe negotiate on the pricing... but I also don't want to miss out on a nice sapphire.

 

[chrono]

Stone 1 is my choice based on performance indoors and outdoors, and pricing. Can you verify that it doesn't show the dreaded 1/2 and 1/2 extinction when oriented N/S? I thought I saw it in the first video, and it was not apparent when oriented E/W but you were turning the stone so quickly. In the other videos, I did not see it so I'd like confirmation. The others have extinction and saturation loss issues.

Pricing is the other thing that is subjective. Yes, it is expensive but if you were to look online, who knows how long it'll take to find something as nice because you have pretty tight specifications. You'll probably save at least $1000 on the safe side. I don't know if they will move on pricing either.

 

[sebas]

Hi Chrono, I can definitely do that. When taking the video in the north-south orientation, what angle should I be viewing? 15 degrees, straight from the top, etc.? I don't think it had extinction either. Also, I will orient the sapphire east-west in the setting.

 

[chrono]

Straight up and down. Actually, rotate the stone but slowly....very slowly. I don't think any woman waves her hands around that quickly.

 

[Starzin]

While the colour of #1 is lovely, to me it definitely had the half and half extinction going on as did most of the others. Where you have the 3 on your hand, the largest on the left (#4?) appears to be a steelier blue with extinction and the small one on the right also has half and half, I thought the middle one performed best though lighter and with some extinction I didn't feel it was as bad. Overall I liked the cushion best but have just seen you state that it has an inclusion near the table

You might be interested in this comparison of 4 sapphires in three lighting situations by a well respected vendor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz-fXc1OLIc&feature=relmfu

And yes...hold still and tilt slooowly

 

[sebas]

Starzin> The video was interesting. I started out liking #1 best, but then in daylight I liked #2 best.

By the way, oval #1 is the smallest, not sure if you were referring to #1 correctly. I think it had the least extinction? The video you posted also seemed to show extinction in all 4 of the sapphires. I think it really does depend on the viewing angle.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

I'm drawn to #1 the best as well.

I was told that the large oval #3 was the same color as #1 and it was much bigger for very little extra cost (but heated). However, the sparkle was very different. The faceting is proportional the the size of the sapphire and so I think that the sparkles were bigger. I didn't like that as much.

I think oval #4 was beautiful in the showroom lighting, but it was darker and so didn't look as good outdoors.

So is $5,100 a rip off or acceptable for #1? I have to consider time and effort, so if I were to start ordering online and found one that was the same, would I save $1000, $2000? I can try to ask that person to get others similar to it but heated and maybe negotiate on the pricing... but I also don't want to miss out on a nice sapphire.

By in store retail standards its and acceptable price. I was once offered a 1ct round sapphire at a retail store for $5,000. HAHA

#1 would be $2,550 per carat. That's pretty high compared to online pricing but It is hard to say how long it will take to find the right stone online. $1000-$2500 in savings is reasonable to see if you went online but never a guaranty. I would estimate that you are paying a minimum of $1000 extra buying the stone in store. And $1000 may be the stores profit on the stone. Its hard to say.

~Justin

 

[sebas]

Price of #1 has been reduced from $5,100 to $4,750.

 

[emcee]

Hi Sebas, I'm a bit confused by all the stones here, but #1 looks like a very beautiful blue and it's very sparkly! I agree with Justin and Chrono's evaluation on the price. I saw a 2ct stone at a local store going for just under $5000. However, I think a similar stone through an online vendor would be closer to $3000 or 3500.

 

[sebas]

Hi Emcee > glad you gave me your 2 cents since we are both looking for similar things (I'm after an oval though). Have you had any luck with the online vendors though? I think you mentioned how the color wasn't the same in person as what they had showed you. I'm worry about photoshopping, etc. Also, you wouldn't happen to be in California, would you? Maybe we can trade notes.

 

[sebas]

By the #1, everyone means this one, right? http://youtu.be/TxsV_yDwvPI (also the smallest oval in the other videos)

 

[sebas]

Take that back... still $5,100 after tax.

 

[Starzin]

Starzin> The video was interesting. I started out liking #1 best, but then in daylight I liked #2 best.

By the way, oval #1 is the smallest, not sure if you were referring to #1 correctly. I think it had the least extinction? The video you posted also seemed to show extinction in all 4 of the sapphires. I think it really does depend on the viewing angle.

Yes, it's all very subjective. I just thought it would give you some more food for thought. The extinction in the video tended to be more rolling. Ovals are notorious (in most gem types) for half and half extinction and I think the favoured #1 is showing this. While some rolling extinction is probably inevitable having half the stones go black is something to avoid if possible. Only you can judge the amount acceptable to you once you know what to look for.

Yes, I did get them right IMG 0670 2 being #1 in a stone holder - beautiful colour but half the stone appears to black out in several places on the video. (check 0.03s, 0.10s and 0.14s at the beginning for instance)
I also see this - albeit to a lesser extent - in IMG 9997 2 with three stones on hand (indoors) - left steelier, middle lighter.
However I did miss the video you posted separately "My First Project" (indoors and outdoors) where the order is initially changed and #1 is in the middle, the extinction is harder to judge in this video because of reflection but I believe it shows up outside at around 1.07s onwards.

However I am seeing the extinction in N-S orientation and I see you are intending to set it E-W. Can you go back to the store one more time for slow videos on #1 in both orientations please?

 

[sebas]

Starzin > yes I see it now. The extinction wasn't as dramatic as some others I have seen in which it turned completely black. This in the N-S orientation turned darker in the top half, but not completely black.

To everyone > Should I ask the retail jeweler to bring in some more sapphires for me too look at? I have only seen one round of sapphires. I'm concerned that I might lose this one though. Although they did say that most likely if I didn't take it they would still purchase it for their inventory. Thoughts?

 

[emcee]

Hi Emcee > glad you gave me your 2 cents since we are both looking for similar things (I'm after an oval though). Have you had any luck with the online vendors though? I think you mentioned how the color wasn't the same in person as what they had showed you. I'm worry about photoshopping, etc. Also, you wouldn't happen to be in California, would you? Maybe we can trade notes.

Hi Sebas,

You're lucky that you're looking for an oval since those are so much more plentiful! Honestly though, I haven't had a ton of luck with the online vendors, but I'm still hopeful and it's still much more plentiful than what I've found locally (I'm from Canada). It's been very hard finding something that is not only the right color, but also the right shape and the right brilliance. If you were considering looking online, I think that your best bet would be to go through the precision cutters and seeing if they had anything that meet your requirements. The other vendors could be great too, but personally I've just found that only precision cutters have stones in the brilliance that I'm looking for. It couldn't hurt to contact a few just to see if they have what you're looking for. If you are dedicated to going the online route, I'd recommend that you give yourself a few months of time for the search. It does take a while to find the perfect stone. But then again, if you don't mind paying more to work with a local dealer, then of course that could be a lot more convenient, especially if they have a good selection in your area.

 

[Starzin]

Starzin > yes I see it now. The extinction wasn't as dramatic as some others I have seen in which it turned completely black. This in the N-S orientation turned darker in the top half, but not completely black.

Okay...as long as you are now aware of it in that stone. As I said, only you can judge IRL. I'll leave other more learned friends to advise on the second question

 

[chrono]

Starzin > yes I see it now. The extinction wasn't as dramatic as some others I have seen in which it turned completely black. This in the N-S orientation turned darker in the top half, but not completely black.

To everyone > Should I ask the retail jeweler to bring in some more sapphires for me too look at? I have only seen one round of sapphires. I'm concerned that I might lose this one though. Although they did say that most likely if I didn't take it they would still purchase it for their inventory. Thoughts?

This is the reason why Sapphire #1 remained my top pick - it did not turn black even when showing the half / half extinction, plus when viewed E/W (the way you plan to have it set) shows good colouration with little extinction.

That's the risk / gamble that you have to decide whether to accept or let go. Will the same vendor be looking for you or will it be someone else? Will this same vendor also provide the setting? If so, you might be able to negotiate slightly better pricing (getting ring and stone all in one place), and also have them look for more sapphires. It is debatable how long they can keep the stone because it isn't theirs to begin with. It is technically out on loan to them from a wholesaler.

 

[sebas]

Hey everyone > I thought this my be informative

I quote a vendor:

As for "extinction"... there are some severe misconceptions floating around internet forums as to what "extinction" actually means. The difference between light and shadow is not extinction. If when the stone is turned one way and it seems darker on one side, then turned the other way it doesn't, that is the difference in light reflection. If any way you turn it it is dark, that is extinction, "dead spots" are what we call them. Ovals, pears and marquis are especially prone to "bow ties", dark areas of the pavilion due to the shape. But these are not technically "extinction". I couldn't explain extinction any better than this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhwytl08dac

 

[chrono]

Sebas,
That is correct; extinction is not to be confused with scintillation or contrast, where when the stone is turned, there are small patches of dark areas that light up, then goes a bit dark again, alternating the look. Bow-ties also light up when turned or the light hits it differently but to many, that dark contrast is too strong, especially on a light coloured stone or can be big and looks unattractive. The half and half, isn't quite really extinction by its true definition because it moves around but because it is large (half the stone), it is also generally considered unattractive. Extinction are dark areas that stay mostly dark and covers a good portion of the stone.

Explanation of extinction by Richard Hughes
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/brilliance_windows_extinction.htm

 

[sebas]

Chrono > this time I read through the whole article. The laws of physics don't lie. I wonder if the vendor gives us the angles of the pavilion facets whether we would know roughly if the sapphire suffers from windowing or extinction? As mentioned, the model is simple and does not take into account the multiple facets in the crown, but it can still be informative. It could save everyone lots of time. The color is another thing altogether.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

This is the reason why Sapphire #1 remained my top pick - it did not turn black even when showing the half / half extinction, plus when viewed E/W (the way you plan to have it set) shows good colouration with little extinction.

This!
~Justin

 

[chrono]

Sebas,
The problem is that most vendors do not know the angles of the pavilion facets unless they happen to be the lapidary who cut that particular stone. In order to be able to predict accurately, you'll also need to know the angles of the crown facets because they work together in combination. Add to the fact that there are multiple crown and multiple pavilion facets....you get the idea.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Sebas, How are things going with the search?

~Justin

 

[sebas]

Ok. I saw a few more at new local jewelers and all had a bit of windowing. One local jeweler said it would take months to find what I am looking for. I also ordered a 2.45ct sapphire from Bruce Bridges but it is quite dark and has the half/half extinction any way you look at it. I am a bit disappointed because he said it did not have the half/half extinction over email and I trusted his opinion... Shipping was $55. The sapphire is heated and he is asking $5500, so it makes me feel better about the unheated oval sapphire for $4750 ($5100 after tax) from the local jewler, which I think is much nicer. At noon I am going back to the local Jewler that showed me the cushion and oval (#4 and 5) to see some new ones he brought in that are hopefully a little lighter. If not as good as #1 I will go to the other local jeweler and buy the #1 unheated oval sapphire.

 

[sebas]

I should say that the 2.45ct sapphire I ordered I looked at only under normal lights and daylight. I'm curious how different it would be in the showroom.