Overwhelmed looking for a high quality sapphire

[Justin_Cutter]

To get an idea, what would be a good price for that last 2.39ct sapphire if a) heated or b) unheated? Everyone agrees that it is overpriced, but I would love to get a sense of what it should be priced at.

These numbers came from gemval.com
Gemval isn't always accurate but I have found that when it comes to Sapphires they are pretty accurate unless you are dealing with a Burma or Kashmir stone. The only variables I changed in this quote were heat and color. I also assumed that the stone was eye clean and that the cut would make the grade of "good"

Gemstone variety: Sapphire
Weight: 2.39 cts.
Color: 151 - medium Blue; strong (heated)
Clarity: VS, Eye clean 2
Cut: Good
Shape: Round
$2,850.94

Gemstone variety: Sapphire
Weight: 2.39 cts.
Color: 151 - medium Blue; strong (unheated)
Clarity: VS, Eye clean 2
Cut: Good
Shape: Round
$4,751.93

Gemstone variety: Sapphire
Weight: 2.39 cts.
Color: 155 - medium dark Blue; very slightly greyish (heated)
Clarity: VS, Eye clean 2
Cut: Good
Shape: Round
$1,336.74

Gemstone variety: Sapphire
Weight: 2.39 cts.
Color: 155 - medium dark Blue; very slightly greyish (unheated)
Clarity: VS, Eye clean 2
Cut: Good
Shape: Round
$2,848.82

Hope this helps! Please keep in mind that these are considered retail prices.
~Justin

 

[sebas]

Justin > That is incredibly helpful for all of us looking for sapphires. Thank you!

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Justin > That is incredibly helpful for all of us looking for sapphires. Thank you!

No problem. There are so many variables to consider but at least it gives you a general Idea.

~Justin

 

[sebas]

What do you guys think of this sapphire, oval, natural (GRS Cert), 2.35 carats, 8.26 x 6.07 mm, $5,500: http://youtu.be/0Sw3zwHH9PE

 

[minousbijoux]

It looks like it has a violet/purplish hue to the blue, which I find appealing. The video is short and its hard to tell if its light reflection or slight color variations throughout the stone like zoning, but one end appears lighter than the other. Is that due to lighting? I like the fact that I did not see the noticeable 1/2 and 1/2 extinction so common with ovals, but it does seem to be a little dead or darker in the center, like the facet angles are off. So I definitely see some color variation or unevenness to the color. That said, the body color is pleasing.

What do you think?

 

[chrono]

While I don't see any major flaws, neither do I see any major attractiveness to the sapphire. It looks, dare I say, rather ordinary. It does have the POW colouration of some of the other sapphires you looked at earlier.

 

[sebas]

I'd have to agree Chrono. I wasn't wowed by it. It was a video that was sent to me so I did not see it in person. I would have to buy it to look at it (return policy is fine), but I'm not sure it is worth the trouble. The blue color isn't quite what I'm hoping for and the sparkle isn't any more spectacular than what I have seen in person.

 

[chrono]

While I don't see any major flaws, neither do I see any major attractiveness to the sapphire. It looks, dare I say, rather ordinary. It does have the POW colouration of some of the other sapphires you looked at earlier.

Caught a horrible typo which I cannot fix now but I think everyone understood what I meant. It does NOT have the pow colouration of some of the other sapphires you looked at earlier.

I agree that it's probably not a good idea to follow up on that particular sapphire based on the video.

 

[sebas]

FYI, this sapphire (the one I liked best so far) for almost $7k is heated: http://youtu.be/qffFzRmiqtY

I talked to the person and he will call to show me more loose sapphires, but mentioned that prices have gone up. Justin gave me values from gemval... are these sapphires marked up too much? On the other hand, it seems that I can't get anyone to find something as pretty as the one I saw. Gemfix said they don't have anything nice enough in their inventory... maybe they didn't want to deal with me looking and sending back.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

FYI, this sapphire (the one I liked best so far) for almost $7k is heated: http://youtu.be/qffFzRmiqtY

I talked to the person and he will call to show me more loose sapphires, but mentioned that prices have gone up. Justin gave me values from gemval... are these sapphires marked up too much? On the other hand, it seems that I can't get anyone to find something as pretty as the one I saw. Gemfix said they don't have anything nice enough in their inventory... maybe they didn't want to deal with me looking and sending back.

That's the downside of retail. The retailer reserves the right to sell stones at what ever price they want. They could list the stone you want for $70,000 claiming its a Kashmir Sapphire and maybe someday someone would buy it thinking they got a good deal and never be the wiser.

Pricescope is a group of incredible members that know better and we look out for each other, but we can't control pricing.

Most retail stores don't give a rip about what a fair market value is, so at the end of the day you have to ask yourself..... Is this a stone I can't live with out? If so then $7K it is.

Personally at that price I would keep looking but I am a fairly patient person I am told.

~Justin

 

[chrono]

I agree with Justin on all counts; vendors are free to price their stones however high or low they feel is necessary. Some people will keep looking and others have to have it (either because they don't know where else to look, got tired of looking, ran out of options or time or whatever else). Personally, I'd keep looking.

 

[sebas]

Hi everyone!

Here is the collection of sapphires I am considering. Could you please give feedback, pros and cons, etc. (I will probably go back to two of these ovals and take videos outside in the daylight and different angles... suggestions appreciated).

1. $2100, oval, heated, eye visible finger inclusion on the side of the table, 8.63 x 6.64 x 5.69mm ~ http://youtu.be/quqequSXF4g

2. Don't remember the details, but probably around $4-5k, oval, heated, don't know if any visible inclusion - http://youtu.be/N62M2q1tHOA

3. $3100, round, heated, eye clean - http://youtu.be/MFbEdRy4aJI

4. $6888, oval, unheated, don't know if any visible inclusion, 2.87 carats, 8.61 x 6.88mm - http://youtu.be/U6K-XtZ6jNQ

5. $12000 (each), round, heated, don't know if any eye visible inclusion, about 2ct. - http://youtu.be/5ORmcgcv7gc

6. $5100, oval, unheated, very small eye visible finger inclusion on the side of table, 2.02ct., about 8 x 6.5 x 4.9mm - http://youtu.be/TxsV_yDwvPI

7. $6100, oval, heated, maybe eye visible inclusion on pavilion, 2.45ct, 8.3 x 6.75 x 5.54mm - http://youtu.be/W4U51kejfNI

8. Same oval as #7, plus $5150, cushion, heated, don't know if any eye visible inclusion, 2.06ct, 7.5 x 6.28 x 5.17mm - http://youtu.be/neseTfexRfo

9. $7100 (w/o setting), round, heated, don't know if any eye visible inclusion, 2.39ct - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qffFzRmiqtY

 

[sebas]

Justin > Nice wedding pics on your thread. I was trying to look at the gemsthailand.com website since you got a really nice sapphire from them, but I got: "Warning - visiting this web site may harm your computer!" Do you know what this is about?

 

[TheElms]

I'm too much of a newbie to give you any real insight (unlike resident experts LD and Chrono and others) into your sapphire choice other than to say that based on my own search those all look far better than what I've been able to find either in a retail store or online really (my budget is a lot smaller though!). So my opinion is as a woman looking for a sapphire for her own engagement ring here's what I think about the ovals (which seem to be your primary interest)


#1 Given your budget why consider a stone with an eye visible inclusion? Other than that it seems a very nice stone for the price, but I can't see the inclusion in the video so its hard to judge!

#2 Just doesn't wow me.

#4 I see significant extinction in the video - the whole sapphire seems to go dark

#6 seems very flashy, I don't see much extinction though one end looks like there is a very small touch of zoning - favorite of the ovals

#7 very nice but for the inclusion - if the inclusion isn't eye visible it would be tied favorite of the ovals

And not that it really matters, my personal favorite (in part because I prefer round to oval and cushion to round) is either 8 or 9. 8 for the shape, 9 for the quality of the stone. 9 is just beautiful to my eyes.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Justin > Nice wedding pics on your thread. I was trying to look at the gemsthailand.com website since you got a really nice sapphire from them, but I got: "Warning - visiting this web site may harm your computer!" Do you know what this is about?

Thank you very much! It was a magical day! Hmm. That's interesting. I have not spoken with them in a while so not sure whats up with the website. Yea unfortunately their stock isn't that great right now.

Ok so I have watch all of your videos over and over. And here are my thoughts. Please keep in mind this is just what my monitor is showing me. Also it may be worth noting that I can't stand extinction so if I seem overly critical that might be playing into it.

1. 30-40% Extinction. Medium Dark Blue tone. Moderate Saturation. http://youtu.be/quqequSXF4g

2. 35-45% Extinction. Medium Dark Blue tone. Moderate Saturation. Medium size window. http://youtu.be/N62M2q1tHOA

3. 55-65% Extinction. Medium to Medium Dark Blue tone. Strong Saturation when the color actually comes through. Scary levels of extinction. http://youtu.be/MFbEdRy4aJI

4. 40-50% Extinction. Medium Dark Blue tone. Moderate Saturation. http://youtu.be/U6K-XtZ6jNQ

5. 5-15% Extinction. Medium to Medium Dark Blue Tone. Moderate to Strong Saturation (Left Stone) Strong Saturation (Right Stone). The stone on the right is the nicer stone. These two stones are at a different level than the rest, but that price is ridiculous!!! Price aside these are my personal favorites. http://youtu.be/5ORmcgcv7gc

6. 10-20% Extinction. Medium to Medium Dark Blue Tone. Moderate to Strong Saturation. The camera never actually focuses on the stone so its hard to really say on this one. http://youtu.be/TxsV_yDwvPI

7. 15-25% Extinction. Medium to Medium Dark Blue Tone. Moderate to Strong Saturation. http://youtu.be/W4U51kejfNI

8. 15-25% Extinction. Medium to Medium Dark Blue Tone. Moderate to Strong Saturation. This video makes 7 look differently, but I will stick with what I saw in the 7 video. Looks like this cushion is very similar to 7 in terms of color and saturation. I really like the proportions of this cut but I am a sucker for cushions. http://youtu.be/neseTfexRfo

9. 5-15% Extinction. Medium to Medium Dark Blue Tone. Moderate to Strong Saturation. Closer to Strong. Small window. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qffFzRmiqtY

~Justin

 

[sebas]

Thanks guys! I agree with everything you said and it is nice to have confirmation. I appreciate the extinction quantification. Can one get less than 15% for less than $6k and still have brightness and nice color?

I am basically only considering sapphires 6-8 at this point. The sapphires in 5 are nice, but overpriced and I still like the oval shape. I will try to take more in focus videos today of these sapphires.

Btw, I learned on Thursday that flipping the sapphire upside down allows one to see the eveness of color better.

Justin - what awesome camera did you use to take those pictures?

 

[chrono]

Woah! Too many videos to view and I'd have forgotten which comment goes with which stone by the time I can type it out on my phone.

I think it is possible but how much time do you have left? Furthermore, B&M pricing will always be higher due to unavoidable overhead. Evenness of colour is seen better upside down but is actually graded face up. Don't discount sapphires that look great from the crown view with some zoning from the side view.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Check this out. http://www.mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=6592

Just to to give you an idea of the size and quality you can get at that price level when your not buying retail.

Not sure what camera. I will have to ask my photographer.

~Justin

 

[sebas]

Justin and Chrono - I sorta understand that retail has a markup, but I'm also considering that they have to do the setting and that it allows me to look at a lot of sapphires and figure out what I should be shooting for, for a given price range. It would have been hard for me to get the same education ordering online... I saw about 20 sapphires. In the process I saw that different jewelers have access to drastically different qualities of sapphires (and that pricing does not correlate at all). The sapphire market price I've been told has gone up and there is more limited supply... but this could all be nonsense.

So now about online...

Justin > I don't understand how one evaluates the quality of that sapphire you posted a link to. I see that it is large and the color seems fine, but I saw how much color can vary depending on the lighting used. Moreover, there is no video of the sapphire on top of a hand or in a setting to evaluate the extinction, brightness, saturation, windowing, etc. So basically one has to take their word for it... but like all places the descriptions are embellished. And so I just don't know how to go about looking at some high quality online. Already gemfix told me they had nothing of the quality that I am looking for (I sent them the videos of the nicer sapphires I saw).

Thanks!

 

[sebas]

I also went to Africa Gems in person and wasn't presented with any ovals that wowed me. The price was also not any cheaper. ??

 

[chrono]

Sebas,
What you wrote about shopping in person is true. It had allowed you to view quite a lot of stones and you are only out the fuel cost. Online shopping may involve shipping costs but this can be reduced with videos and hand shots. I would only purchase from trusted vendors, many of whom will provide hand shots on request and when questioned, will answer honestly. The Mastercut sapphire is a beauty in terms of colour and cutting, but when viewed carefully, I suspect half and half extinction, meaning there is a clear line splitting the sapphire onto 2 evenly sized portions, where one side is bright or "lit" with the other side darker or extinct. Stones like this are best as a pendant because when set the other way, the extinction appears to disappear.

Africa Gems tends to typically be higher priced, together with All That Glitters and Awesome Gems.

 

[sebas]

Chrono > Right on! That's what I thought I saw, but didn't want to say... I can totally see that being a great pendant. What I am doing right now is contacting the online jewelers specifying what I want and asking them to send a video on hand in daylight and office lighting. I hope they are receptive. I figure I can give up to 5 shipments worth of trying...

 

[sebas]

Oh I forgot to mention that I will post more videos tonight. One thing that I noticed when comparing the two best ovals is that the unheated $5100 oval did better in daylight compared to the heated $6100 oval. I think the difference is the unheated was slightly lighter and so reflected more light in daylight and shadow conditions. Unfortunately the two ovals are in different cities and so it is hard to directly compare them side by side, but that is the impression I got. The $5100 oval has a small needle inclusion, but they said it is still considered eye clean because it is not noticeable unless you first look under the scope. It is quite hard to spot it without knowing to look for it. The $6100 oval has no visible inclusions and has a nicer oval shape (less roval) and is slightly bigger, but is darker and heated. They both seem to have great even color distribution.

Oh and they showed me one other oval, but I thought it was too large. I'll post in a few hours.

 

[chrono]

You are unlikely to get videos from online vendors. These people run a very lean business, often being a one man show.

 

[sebas]

This is something the natural sapphire company recommended, but I was not impressed:

~2cts, unheated, >$5,000

 

[sebas]

Chrono > So how do I judge the sparkle if there is no video? I think it is possible to take a picture at just the right angle to make it seem like there is no extinction...?

 

[chrono]

Not impressed either; too much extinction with a medium sized window. Unlikely to be a very lively stone.

 

[chrono]

Chrono > So how do I judge the sparkle if there is no video? I think it is possible to take a picture at just the right angle to make it seem like there is no extinction...?

By looking at the symmetry and other cut factors. It is certainly possible to photograph the stone just right to not show the extinction but it will take time to set it up right. Perhaps a view of it both E/W and N/S will limit your risk.

 

[Justin_Cutter]

Justin and Chrono - I sorta understand that retail has a markup, but I'm also considering that they have to do the setting and that it allows me to look at a lot of sapphires and figure out what I should be shooting for, for a given price range. It would have been hard for me to get the same education ordering online... I saw about 20 sapphires. In the process I saw that different jewelers have access to drastically different qualities of sapphires (and that pricing does not correlate at all). The sapphire market price I've been told has gone up and there is more limited supply... but this could all be nonsense.

So now about online...

Justin > I don't understand how one evaluates the quality of that sapphire you posted a link to. I see that it is large and the color seems fine, but I saw how much color can vary depending on the lighting used. Moreover, there is no video of the sapphire on top of a hand or in a setting to evaluate the extinction, brightness, saturation, windowing, etc. So basically one has to take their word for it... but like all places the descriptions are embellished. And so I just don't know how to go about looking at some high quality online. Already gemfix told me they had nothing of the quality that I am looking for (I sent them the videos of the nicer sapphires I saw).

Thanks!

sebas, I understand what your saying about looking at sapphires at B&M stores. This is a great way to get educated and see exactly what you like and don't like. I am not knocking the process I just wanted you to see that there is a tremendous cost difference. Whatever you decide is your business and I understand.

When it comes to evaluating pictures online it is some what of a learned process and the more experience you have with it the better you will be at it. Here are some things to look for.

1. If the color of the sapphire lightens in the middle it probably has a window. This can be Photoshopped so it can be hard to spot sometimes.

2. Pay close attention to the surface the stone is resting on when the picture is taken. Does it look: washed out with light, blue in tone, or fake? This will help you get an idea of how much the picture has been tampered with.

3. Black and Grey backgrounds will help hide a window. So don't be afraid to ask for hand shots or white paper shots.

As for the Mastercutgems sapphire I posted. Yes it is not a perfect stone but like Chrono said the color and cut are wonderful and to me this stone has something special. I am still kicking myself for not buying it.

Yes trust/faith in the seller is a big part of buying online. That is why return policies are so important and good feedback.

I agree with you and Chrono on the Natural Sapphire Company stone.... I don't see anything special about it.... oh wait that's because all I see is extinction. NSC

My photographers camera is a Canon 5D Mark III.

Chrono, If I may, I agree and disagree with your assessment of the Mastercutgems sapphire..... If that is even possible lol.
I feel that your assessment of the extinction is accurate, but on the other hand when I look at the stone I see color zoning. One half looks like a pure blue while the other half is blue with a velvet modifier. Either way something is definitely different in each half of the stone. Maybe I am seeing things.... do you see this at all? Oh geez I don't even know if I agree with myself! Haha!

~Justin

 

[chrono]

Justin,
I definitely see the colour difference but don't think it is zoning, otherwise it'll be advertised as a bi-colour. Not only that, it seems only apparent in that one picture. This looks more like shadowing (extinction) on one side to me though. This makes the case where the stone has to be seen in person for a full and more accurate evaluation. Pictures can only tell us so much but it gives a fair idea of what to expect.