Poll: To Change Or Not To Change? That Is The Question...

[Mara]

DBM...you know it!!

I always remind my darling future hubby...Leave me for the child-bride secretary and you will FEEL it...and in more ways than one!

 

[canadiangrrl]

*practicing new signature* Scooby F. Doo...Ms. S.F. Doo...

There were some remarks a few posts back on this thread about not wanting to think about divorce. Well, we have, and we're not even married yet.

We've talked about infidelity, financial downswings, major illness, the arrival of small two-legged people who drain your bank account and deprive you of sleep...all of the ugly things that can negatively affect a marriage that no one wants to talk about.

We've both been divorced once, and we don't want to experience it again. We are both committed to doing whatever it takes to make our marriage work. But realistically, with the divorce rate being what it is, I do believe that couples should get their expectations out in the open. And for us, that means acknowledging & discussing issues that can and do lead to divorce...how we would handle them...what our tolerances are...before they happen.

Edited because "are" and "our" are/our not the same thing.

 

[Mikesgirl]

Sounds like it all will turn out well Canadiangrrl. I did go through the divorce, after keeping my maiden name as middle, and it was not a difficult transition back because I signed everything that way, so people were familiar with my maiden name. When I remarried I kept my maiden name because I was planning to be an Architect and there was pride involved in putting my name on my designs. When my daughter was born, I decided to change my name to hers, not my husbands, because it was important to me that we share the same name. But my maiden name is still in the middle. You have to do what feels right for you - and remember, that is what feels right today. It may or may not change.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 11/18/2003 7:45:10 PM Mara wrote:


DBM...you know it!!

I always remind my darling future hubby...Leave me for the child-bride secretary and you will FEEL it...and in more ways than one!

----------------

Mara, my husband is scared of me.

Remember, I do live in VA. - home of Lorena Bobbit.

 

[glitterata]

Hey, anybody remember Mistra? Brought to you by the folks who brought you Ms. I forget how you abbreviate it, but it's the married form of Mr. The idea was that if men wanted women to use honorifics that broadcast their marital status, the men better be willing to do the same. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

For some reason, Mistra (Mra., maybe?) never caught on. But feel free to use it in discussions about what to call yourselves, ladies. Might make a good bargaining chip.

 

[Mikesgirl]

-------------------
DBM...you know it!! I always remind my darling future hubby...Leave me for the child-bride secretary and you will FEEL it...and in more ways than one!
------------------

When I married the second time I told my new husband, "I will not be divorced again. I may be widowed, and I may be jailed, but I will never be divorced again." He knows I mean it (not that it would EVER happen . . . )

 

[winyan]

Oh, I changed my last name alright ... right back to the name my family had while still in South Dakota. I'm officially now Xxxxxxxx Crowfoot-Xxxxxxx-Xxxxxx.




Lucky us, when the Department of War incorporated the Lakotah into the 'Indian Rolls' some of us were given 'Anglo' or in our case, Scots last names. I merely took back the family name of one of our forefathers, which dates back to 1873. I can trace my Lakotah lineage back to at least 1836, which coincidentally is the same year the house I am now living in, was built.




Yeah it's a long name, but like I tell folks who complain, it's mine, live with it.




win

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 11/18/2003 7:57:10 PM canadiangrrl wrote:





*practicing new signature* Scooby F. Doo...Ms. S.F. Doo...

----------------

OMG......I almost spit out my dinner on this, I was laughing so hard!!! Mrs. S.F. Doo.....kinda has a nice ring to it!

Thanks for all the witty humor you inject here, CG! (STILL chuckling......have to show the BF this one!)

 

[Mikesgirl]

Win, you are so cool. I wish you lived in my neighborhood (or I in yours) so I could get to know you personally. You seem like a really strong person.

 

[Mari]

For me it is no question of changing my name.

My parents had two different last names, when I was 16 I took my mother's last name as my middle name. That's when I decided what my name was/is, and it made me attatched to it, I had chosen it myself.


Also, I've lived in 4 different countries and I'm known both professionnally and socially by my own last names. If I changed last names people who would try to get in touch with me wouldn't be able too unless they knew that I had married and had taken his name. (I'm not married as yet)

My boyfriend and me are of different nationalities (we live in his country) and my name has become even more important to me as my national identity is something I feel I have to hold on to.

All of these reasons would meand that I voted that I won't change my name.

In the end I think it's up to each couple to sort out what is right for them.
There si no general right or wrong solutions.

 

[Hest88]

I thought about this for a long time and ended up changing my name.

However, I would have been highly POed if my DH had even insinuated that it was anything other than 100% my decision. If he had tried to tell me that as his wife I *had* to take his name I'm not sure if we would have ended up getting married.

 

[Mara]

I don't know any guy who would tell his wife she HAD to do anything and walk away unscathed.

Then again I'm a big bully.

 

[canadiangrrl]

Sadly, I dated any number of guys who would have been the type to tell their wife to do something. That was before I grew a spine.

And hey, Al, I'm only here as long as I keep you entertained.

 

[Mikesgirl]

Love your new avatar. It really goes with the grrl part of canadiangrrl. Maybe you should become Mra. and Mrs. S.F. Doo. (Maybe that's what's behind people choosing a different name for both of them to take together - then he realizes what he is asking).

 

[BTO]

I really struggled with the idea of changing my name. I like my maiden name. It's simple, never mispelled and was never butchered during roll-call in grade school

And I don't recall ever having to spell out T-a-y-l-o-r to the host in a noisy restaurant. haha!

In the end, I decided to change my middle name to my maiden name, and take my husband's last name. But I've forwarned my hubby that all of our children will have my maiden name as their middle name, too, just to make sure the my family's side is represented as well.

Brandy

 

[winyan]

Hiya Marty...




I'm not so sure we might not have been neighbors years ago, if you grew up 4 miles from the 'city'.




Anyway, I dunno if I'm strong, I just have an odd way of looking at things, possibly because of family connections that are unlike any other in this nation.




I realize that others had their names anglicized when coming to this country, and few have changed it back. However, my familial names sort of symbolize this country, the way it was before European influences. If we let those reminders die, this country will have lost a lot.




I'm just trying to 'splain my viewpoint when it seems odd to others. Hope no one minds!




win

 

[Roxy]

Mind??? Are you kidding? That's what this forum is all about - a variety of viewpoints. Of course, I may be biased because I happen to agree with yours.

Canadiangrrl: Love that avatar!!

 

[ChooChoo]

I think I am going to deal with the issue a little differently - I do plan to change my last name, but mostly because I don't like it. However, I plan to use Ms. instead of Mrs., and with the Esq. after the name, I doubt I'll be mistaken for a meek housewife

Oh, and if my husband insisted on me taking his last name, that would be reason enough for me not to do it. This has to be the woman's choice, 100%.

 

[canadiangrrl]

Choo choo....dude...I don't know of any "meek housewives." Outdated stereotype, IMO. I do, however, know a lot of strong, educated, and hard-working women who've made the admirable, self-sacrificing choice to stay at home with their children & make their family their top priority.

 

[ChooChoo]

Sure, there are plenty of stay-at-home moms that don't fit into the mold, but that doesn't mean that I want to be mistaken for one. To me, the one qualm I have about changing my name is that people will assume things about me, as a woman and wife, from the fact that I change my name. I don't think the label "Mrs." helps any!

And I didn't say that I myself think of women as meek housewives - but, I think that's a stereotype that's very much alive, and still idealized by a lot of men.

 

[canadiangrrl]

Choo choo, the inference that I took from your message was that having your professional credentials after your surname would somehow dissuade folks from thinking you're a "meek housewife." Ergo, "meek housewives" are somehow defined by their lack of credentials. (now that I've typed that, I must now set myself on fire.) FYI, my sister has Dr. in front of her name and Phd. after it, and currently chooses to stay at home with her children. I am not sure how or if she would fit into to your seemingly black-and-white definitions.

I would be hard-pressed to fill a bathroom stall with the men that I know that want a "meek housewife."

Stay at home mothers should be revered. It's an incredibly tough, sometimes thankless gig, and the stakes are so high. If you're ever lucky enough to be mistaken for one, be grateful. There is no job in the world that requires more patience, skill, and dedication. It's a shame that that our culture mostly fails to recognize it as such.

 

[ChooChoo]

CG, I meant no offense to you, or to women who stay at home. I agree that it's a difficult and worthwhile path. But it's not for me, and I don't see how it's invalid not to want to be mistaken for one. I am working very hard to have these credentials, and I don't want them presumed away. By the way, I bet your sister still has "Dr." and not "Mrs." as her title - staying home with the kids doesn't deprive her of her qualifications, and there's no reason not to be proud of them.

And there are PLENTY of men at my school who would love a housewife because they think it's the ultimate status symbol for a lawyer. I think you're lucky if you are meeting more men who want their wives to be professionally succesful. There are lots of great girls here that are single for the very reason that those men are hard to find!

 

[canadiangrrl]

Choo Choo, the fact that you have Esq. after your name is no guarantee that you won't ever be mistaken for a housewife - that's all I was trying to say there. The problem for me is that you're viewing women's roles in such absolute terms. A guy may very well prefer that his wife stays at home with their children. It doesn't mean he's necessarily wanting a "meek housewife."

Here's a real life example. My fiance and I are both educated professionals. We are going to have a child at some point (hopefully) once we are married. I will be a stay-at-home mother when said child is small. That is his wish - it is our wish - it is my choice.

He supports me in all of my goals, professional and personal. He delights in my accomplishments. He loves the fact that I'm opinionated. He also thinks I'll be an excellent mother - one of the highest compliments he's ever given me.

As for my sis - she doesn't sign her name with her credentials, and nor does anyone address her that way, outside of a professional context. We refer to her by her first name, her kids teachers mistakenly refer to her as Mrs. ________, and her children just call her Mom.

 

[ChooChoo]

CG, I think you and I agree on a lot of things and we are basically misunderstanding each other. I think it's great when either parent feels like he or she wants to stay at home with the kids when they are little, but what saddens me is that in our society it's just presumed that it will be the woman. To me, that presumption compounded with the presumption that the woman will change her name to the husband's is a sign that women haven't come as far in our society as we might hope.

And yes, I do think women have more black-and-white roles in our society, and I wish that wasn't the case. Unfortunately, we are too often faced with having to choose between being a professional and being assumed to be a bad mother, or being a stay-at-home mom and being seen as not caring about our work. I intend to be a working woman and a good parent, but I know that I will be seen at times as sacrificing my work for my children or my children for my work, even if that's not true.

In an ideal world, both men and women would work less and pay more attention to their children, and everyone would be both a professional and a great parent.

 

[canadiangrrl]

"CG, I think you and I agree on a lot of things and we are basically misunderstanding each other. I think it's great when either parent feels like he or she wants to stay at home with the kids when they are little, but what saddens me is that in our society it's just presumed that it will be the woman. To me, that presumption compounded with the presumption that the woman will change her name to the husband's is a sign that women haven't come as far in our society as we might hope."

I'm in complete agreement.

"And yes, I do think women have more black-and-white roles in our society, and I wish that wasn't the case."

Life's unfair.

"Unfortunately, we are too often faced with having to choose between being a professional and being assumed to be a bad mother, or being a stay-at-home mom and being seen as not caring about our work. I intend to be a working woman and a good parent, but I know that I will be seen at times as sacrificing my work for my children or my children for my work, even if that's not true."

And you'll be seen as sacrificing your work for your children, or your children for your work, because you will. It is true - I see it every day. The myth of "Superwoman" is just that - a myth. In a critical meeting with a client and your kid's teacher calls? What do you do? My last boss was a woman. Had two little kids. They had chicken pox - she had a deadline that meant millions in revenue to our unit. Guess which was the priority? I'm sure we'd all like to think that we can manage to keep all of the balls up in the air all of the time. But sadly, the real world doesn't always make it so easy.

Women have tough choices to make. I believe we can have it all - just not all at once.

"In an ideal world, both men and women would work less and pay more attention to their children, and everyone would be both a professional and a great parent."

I agree, to a point - in my ideal world, men and women would be supported and encouraged to be full-time parents, if they so desire. I've been a professional for a fairly long time, and I'm at the point where I could happily give that up to do something else for several years, and not look back.

Your priorities can and do shift with time.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 11/21/2003 6:41:32 PM canadiangrrl wrote:

Stay at home mothers should be revered. It's an incredibly tough, sometimes thankless gig, and the stakes are so high. If you're ever lucky enough to be mistaken for one, be grateful. There is no job in the world that requires more patience, skill, and dedication. It's a shame that that our culture mostly fails to recognize it as such.

----------------

I wholeheartedly agree. It is a 24/7 job.

I'm also completely on board with the "we can have it all - just not all at once" approach.

 

[winyan]

----------------
On 11/21/2003 11:32:16 PM canadiangrrl wrote:







'In an ideal world, both men and women would work less and pay more attention to their children, and everyone would be both a professional and a great parent.'

I agree, to a point - in my ideal world, men and women would be supported and encouraged to be full-time parents, if they so desire

----------------

I have to chuckle a bit at this. When Europeans came to the Americas, way back, 511 years ago, Amerind society was structured pretty much as above. Parents worked an average of 25 hours a week ... more in the summer, less in the winter, and had real time to 'parent' their offspring, and if they were too busy, the grandparents were considered the 'parents'. Now adays we have parents who have to have 'careers' and grandparents that need 'retirement' and both are mutually exclusive of extended family life. The extended family has become the State, who in turn has become the bugabear of parents. Discipline consisted of taking the time, in most cases, over and over again, of sitting a child down and reiterating a story of why whatever the child did was wrong, and showing the outcome of such wrong doing ... usually with someone else bearing the burden of the action. Again, the key word is *TIME*.

We need to take the time for ourselves, and our children. In today's society, where Corporations have no reason to feel loyalty to employees, is it so wrong to feel likewise about the Corporation? I think not. Either we need to do more to educate the corporations about the importance of the employee, both as an employee and a prospective consumer, and as a member of a society known as a 'family'.

win

 

[canadiangrrl]

Win, you're awesome.

Corporations have caught on, and they pay lip-service to the idea of "family time", but for the most part, nothing much has changed. Two years ago I worked for a Fortune 200 packaged goods company. They said a lot of blah blah blah about the importance of family, how critical it is to have a work/life balance...and everyone worked insane hours. It was the silent expectation. If you weren't in the office by 8 am, there was the perception that you weren't fully committed to your job. My then-boss, who is in Canadiangrrl's Hall Of Fame Of Bosses, was a bright, dedicated leader in her late thirties who also happened to have a husband & two toddlers. She dressed impeccably, and was always cheerful, energetic, stylish, and well-groomed. Her hands told the tale, though - her nails were bitten to the quick and her cuticles were chewed up beyond belief. There were moments when I felt incredibly bad for her - she seemed so torn sometimes. It was around that time that I had my epiphanal moment on Christmas Eve - I don't want your life.

The extended family was a by-product of a culture that valued familial bonds and was an economic necessity for many families. Society has become far more transient, the prevailing "have it all, have it now" culture has us chained to our desks, and the extended family has fallen by the wayside, unfortunately.

 

[canadiangrrl]

One more thing, and then I'll shut up (for now.)

This might not be a popular opinion, but I really do believe that people have to make choices. Unfair, rotten choices. It's not entirely fair to place the burden on corporations (although they need to assume some of it.) I believe that people should, in theory, work less and spend more time with their kids. But that might mean, for some, giving up certain expectations, whether they're related to career progress, or material things, or both. Because capitalism shows no sign of abating (tongue planted firmly in cheek here) and the endless drone of higher-faster-better-more will continue with or without you.

And if I hear one more person in my immediate circle whine about the unfairness of it all, I'm going to scream bloody murder. Life is at times massively, overwhelmingly unfair. Get over it.

 

[glitterata]

Here's a suggestion: Don't have children. There are too many people in the world as it is.