lucyandroger
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Pre-nups and financial stuff
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FrekeChild
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You know I''ve been continuing to think a lot about this topic. Obviously you will still have the option of divorce, whether you choose to take it or not.
Even if I were to feel the same way that most of you feel, that divorce is not an option, I think I would have it in the back of my mind as an option anyway. I don''t know if in saying this it will make any amount of sense, but I''ll try anyway. I just feel like denying it completely puts a lot of pressure on what can potentially be a very fragile thing. I feel like saying the "never" and "not us", it''s almost tempting fate. If that makes sense? And I wouldn''t want to do that.
I was also thinking earlier about a situation in which even if I did not believe in divorce, (which is kind of a non-nonsensical phrase, divorce isn''t the Tooth Fairy!) in which I think it would be one option I would very much have to weigh.
This is entirely hypothetical and something that occurred in my very active imagination!
This part is true: My husband has a heart condition. He has to have open heart surgery every 10-15 years. In 7-12 years he''s due for another one. This means that his sternum will be sawed in half and he will be entirely dependent on me for everything for at least a month.
Here comes my imagination: In this scenario, he has surgery and in the process of recovery he becomes addicted to painkillers, which in turn causes him to lose his job, and become abusive towards me. Years of therapy, drug and addiction as well as couples counseling later and not only has the addiction and abuse not gotten better, it has gotten worse. He has not managed to get a job, and I am the primary breadwinner. After 5 years of this, the loss of my self worth, and self respect, and my life is in ruin. I am so stressed out that my job performance is suffering, I cannot hold a conversation with my husband without being berated, and I have turned into a shell of my former self. But I''ve finally hit a breaking point. I don''t believe in divorce, but I do still have the slightest of backbones and I can''t deal with this anymore.
I have one choice-estrangement.
That seems to be the only choice in this particular scenario, doesn''t it?
Now while that may sound somewhat extreme, a lot of it is founded in truth. A woman I am very close with had a husband who was an engineer, they were very well off, had two kids, the dog and the equivalent to the white picket fence, and then he lost his job. With his job went his self worth. He turned to drugs. For ten years he abused (physically, mentally and emotionally) her and her son. He also did not pay any taxes for the same ten years. He had his wife write the check, and he, instead of turning in that money to the government, bought drugs. At the ten year mark, the woman broke, and had spent the past 6 months preparing to leave. She left and never looked back. He left her with nothing but two beautiful children, the IRS coming after her and the resulting bankruptcy. This is not a woman that you would think would ever bend to the will of anyone, much less someone abusing her.
One of my friends made a similar agreement with her then boyfriend, a "divorce is not an option" agreement. They got engaged. They got married. Then the sexual deviance on behalf of her husband began, with orgies, strip clubs, nudist camps, thousands and thousands of dollars in phone sex operator bills...and for a while my friend kept silent and went with the flow. A couple of years passed and she gradually found out that the sex stuff was only really the tip of the iceberg. She hit her breaking point too. She''s another woman you''d never think would just take any of that.
I just...I don''t know. I guess I just could never discount divorce from the options. Being together is a choice. Being apart is a choice. I guess I could never trust anyone to not let me down. Self-preservation and all that.
Ok, I need to stop thinking about this now!
lucyandroger
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LOL, Freke! You''re having too much fun with this!
I would never suggest that someone else shouldn''t get a divorce if they felt that that was the best thing for them and their family, especially when abuse is involved.
It''s hard to respond to your scenarios because they are so out there and require lots of bad choices to get there but I will say this...If my husband somehow became addicted to a substance, I would support him through his recovery. This may mean that we would have to separate while he went into rehab but I would treat him the same way I would help a parent or sibling through an addiction.
It would be kind of difficult for my SO to have a hidden strip club, orgy, etc. fettish since we''ve spent every night except one together for the past three years. So I''ll change your scenario to he somehow develops this fettish, which is kind of funny because he is a huge prude. But anyway, we would discuss and figure out what was causing this new deviance and figure out a way to meet this need in a different way that was acceptable to both of us.
It basically comes down to this for me. I cannot anticipate every choice or bad decision my SO will make in the future. However, I can say that he will always be the person I married and as such, I will support and help him through any of these bad decisions. And this does not mean hanging around to get abused. If there is an addiction that is causing him to be violent, then that would require some physical separation while the issues are worked out.
I would never suggest that someone else shouldn''t get a divorce if they felt that that was the best thing for them and their family, especially when abuse is involved.
It''s hard to respond to your scenarios because they are so out there and require lots of bad choices to get there but I will say this...If my husband somehow became addicted to a substance, I would support him through his recovery. This may mean that we would have to separate while he went into rehab but I would treat him the same way I would help a parent or sibling through an addiction.
It would be kind of difficult for my SO to have a hidden strip club, orgy, etc. fettish since we''ve spent every night except one together for the past three years. So I''ll change your scenario to he somehow develops this fettish, which is kind of funny because he is a huge prude. But anyway, we would discuss and figure out what was causing this new deviance and figure out a way to meet this need in a different way that was acceptable to both of us.
It basically comes down to this for me. I cannot anticipate every choice or bad decision my SO will make in the future. However, I can say that he will always be the person I married and as such, I will support and help him through any of these bad decisions. And this does not mean hanging around to get abused. If there is an addiction that is causing him to be violent, then that would require some physical separation while the issues are worked out.
FrekeChild
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monkeyprincess
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Another couple of attorneys getting married in my case too! My fiance does a significant amount of family law, but I''m in a larger firm with largely corporate clients. We also will not be having a pre-nup. My fiance inherited a large amount of farmland, owns a house,and his law office building, and I come into the marriage with about equal savings and student loans, so I basically have no assets. But he is adamently opposed to the idea of a pre-nup.
We too are both committed to the "divorce is not an option" camp. He has had no divorces in his family, and my parents divorced after nearly 30 years of marriage. I believe that if both parties are committed to the principal that we will work through this no matter what, it is not an unrealistic concept. In my parents'' case, my mother did not believe in divorce for religious reasons, but my father took advantage of that and misbehaved, thinking divorce wasn''t an option. He broke the marriage vows in a variety of ways, and there was no marriage left. It was the right decision for my mother.
That said, my fiance and I have made a commitment to each other that we will respect our vows and will support each other through whatever comes our way. We too have been through a very significant life event, and I believe if we made it through that, we will make it through whatever comes our way. Call me naive if you want, but that is the commitment we are making.
We too are both committed to the "divorce is not an option" camp. He has had no divorces in his family, and my parents divorced after nearly 30 years of marriage. I believe that if both parties are committed to the principal that we will work through this no matter what, it is not an unrealistic concept. In my parents'' case, my mother did not believe in divorce for religious reasons, but my father took advantage of that and misbehaved, thinking divorce wasn''t an option. He broke the marriage vows in a variety of ways, and there was no marriage left. It was the right decision for my mother.
That said, my fiance and I have made a commitment to each other that we will respect our vows and will support each other through whatever comes our way. We too have been through a very significant life event, and I believe if we made it through that, we will make it through whatever comes our way. Call me naive if you want, but that is the commitment we are making.
iheartscience
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Date: 3/9/2010 11:20:54 PM
Author: lucyandroger
Date: 3/9/2010 8:19:45 PM
Author: thing2of2
But you''re not really giving up your future choice to divorce, are you? You''re just as able to legally get a divorce as anyone else is. So although you''re saying that you''ll never use that option, it''s still there. So I would argue that you have the same amount of comfort, stability and sense of family that any other married person does.Date: 3/9/2010 5:15:27 PM
Author: lucyandroger
This is why I love PS. Lot of intelligent, interesting women.
Thanks, Haven and lilyfoot! I knew we were in the minority but was starting to wonder if we were the only ones.
Freke and RaiKai, your posts make lots of sense and really give me a view into how you see marriage. Thank you for sharing as well!
I gladly give up future choice to divorce in exchange for the comfort, stability, and sense of family that a commitment not to divorce provides.
Just goes to show you - everyone is different, every relationship is different, and therefore, every marriage will be different!
(Unless of course you''re drawing up an ironclad prenuptial agreement that will prevent a future divorce from ever taking place.) I''m not a lawyer but I doubt something like that would hold up in court, would it?
My parents have been happily married for 42 years. I was raised Catholic and the Catholic church also teaches that divorce is not an option. I don''t consider divorce an option for me, but I will also freely admit that I can''t predict the future.
Of course we will have the same legal right as anyone else to get divorced. I was addressing the previous posters that were discussing how saying that divorce is not an option would be taking choice away from their future selves. I cannot compare my sense of stability or comfort to anyone else''s. I am talking about in my relationship and how I feel.
Look, I''m not trying to convince anybody of anything and have never said I can predict the future (just control my future actions). I honestly couldn''t care less if the whole world thought we were going to divorce in the future. I''ve just been sharing a (clearly minority) view.
But your view isn''t really a minority one. Almost everyone who gets married say they''re never getting divorced-but plenty of them do. I''m not saying you''re going to end up divorced. (Like I said before, I can''t see the future.)
What I am saying is that you still have the option of a divorce just like everyone else. You saying you''ll never exercise that option isn''t some special way of thinking about marriage, since the majority of people getting married say EXACTLY the same thing. But hey-if you want to think you''re looking at marriage in some special, different way, feel free.
lucyandroger
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Nobody is arguing that they have a different legal right to divorce. We all recognize that the legal right remains in place. Please stop harping on one line out of many I have written in this thread and taking it out of context.
Most of the women on this thread have stated that they won''t say that they''ll never get divorced. They have taken the position, as you do, that because we can''t predict the future, there is a possibility that they will end up divorced.
I have no need to feel special or different but thanks for the permission. What I have said is that although I cannot predict what the future has in store for us, I can predict my decision not to get a divorce because it is a choice, not something that "happens to" a couple. We can choose as a couple to handle things in a way that does not include divorce. And therefore, we can say that we will not be exercising our legal right to divorce.
If you don''t see a difference there, I don''t know what to tell you.
RaiKai
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Yes, and I think this is where the confusion is coming in. The people on here, myself included, who say that divorce is an option are NOT saying they are intending to exercise that option. In fact, I can say that I intend to NEVER exercise that option. My husband and I are both very committed to our relationship and that we don't exercise that option.
For example, before we ever agreed to get married, it was important that we were both compatible in respect of our views on counseling, therapy, etc. We have both done relationship counseling and individual therapy in the past and present in past relationships and individual reasons and my husband continues individual therapy now for issues arising from his former military career and so forth. Neither of us would of been willing to marry someone who did not share that willingness to work on self and relationship and to both be self-aware and accept responsibility for self. We are incredibly honest with one another outside without outside help too, including whatever fears or insecurities we had about marriage before and ongoing. We recognize that we are learning together what marriage is for us, and open to one another about what we are learning too. The reality is that we WILL change as individuals as we move forward in life and we have to continuously work to see how that fits with our relationship together or to see whether the changes in our relationship work for us as individuals.
I have dated two men in the past who made statements that they "did not believe in divorce". Both were long term partners and both had parents who were still together (not exactly happily mind you from what I witnessed). However, their intense fear of divorce also led to an intense fear of commitment in the first place and an incredible reluctance to discuss difficult issues yet to also be quite critical of things. Any little "issue" that arose in the relationship was enough to make them back away from commitment and feel resentful because they could not get married until everything met their impossibly high standard of perfection. Oddly enough, they were rather adamant against counseling too....seeing a need for counseling as a sign that things were not meant to be or that you should not have to work hard at a relationship. I found this odd. I still keep in touch with both of them time to time, and they are still "stuck" in this mindset.
As another example of a dear friend of mine who married with the divorce is not an option view and where things really did not seem so "out there" or require a lot of bad choices to get there....my friend comes from a family where divorce is NOT an option. No one in his family has ever divorced. Ever. And they have a massive family. He felt the same way. He was taking his time to find the right woman. When he was 33, he married this woman that my partner at the time had actually introduced him too. They seemed like peas in a pod and seemed very close! Both firmly believed divorce was not an option and they shared that view with their friends quite openly. I always thought something was amiss with her, even at their wedding, however, they also seemed really really happy and certainly appeared to outsiders as very happy, very much in-love newlyweds and really, I could not see anything WRONG with her or their relationship, it was just a nagging vibe. And I spent a lot of time around them. Just before their 2nd anniversary, he filed for divorce as apparently she had an anger streak that had only shown up a couple months after they married. Apparently she would have extreme temper tantrums, and be quite the "witch", intermixed with being quite sweet. It was obviously, an abusive cycle. The decision was incredibly difficult for him, because "divorce was not an option" and with his family history, however, she was unwilling to do anything about it (i.e. go to counseling together) and did not seem too worried as "divorce was not an option". He DID discuss with her ways to address this shift and to figure out a way to work together and move forward. She decided that did not work for her. Well, turns out, he decided it indeed was an option - what else was he to do?
Anyway, my point is that the option is definitely still THERE whether you are committed to not taking it or not. It is still present as an option! And it is an option for both people in the marriage. I just don't think saying it isn't an option automatically enhances the bond or strength of your marriage. For my husband and I, talking about divorce and imagining what that experience would be like for US (and we aren't naive to what that may be like - as I said before we both had long term common law marriages that ended and where we went through legal separations) actually focuses us more on ways we can nourish our relationship together, and ourselves as individuals, so that we do not go down that path.
And Freke: I remember once my husband and I were discussing a friend who had made the statement "they don't believe in divorce" and he too said "what, it's not like the Tooth Fairy!" so your comment made me giggle
lucyandroger
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Anecdotes are just that - anecdotes. I would never claim that every couple that says divorce is not an option will live up to that. I don''t think anybody has said that.
I''m sure we could spend all day swapping stories about crazy people and their crazy relationships. I think I''ll be stepping out now.
I''m sure we could spend all day swapping stories about crazy people and their crazy relationships. I think I''ll be stepping out now.
FrekeChild
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Lol! It really is a bit of a silly phrase, isn''t it?Date: 3/10/2010 10:45:11 AM
Author: RaiKai
And Freke: I remember once my husband and I were discussing a friend who had made the statement ''they don''t believe in divorce'' and he too said ''what, it''s not like the Tooth Fairy!'' so your comment made me giggle
I was still thinking about this as I went to bed last night, and I thought of another peculiar instance where divorce was in the relationship. That sounds weird doesn''t it? True though.
Anyway, the man and woman married when they were young. They had a daughter. Many years later they had an "accident" resulting in a son. Shortly afterward the woman was diagnosed with heart defects and was told that she would need a heart transplant in the future. Years go by, she has the transplant, she is diagnosed with diabetes and cancer on top of the heart disease and heart defects. Because of all of these, her daily medicinal needs are extremely expensive, and she and her husband come to the realization that if they continue paying for her meds, even with insurance, they will eventually have to file for bankruptcy--and sooner rather than later. They weren''t poverty level or even lower class, probably lower middle class. She worked in her family''s restaurant, he was the manager of an apartment building. They came to the conclusion that to keep her in meds for the long term, something had to be done. The conclusion was that they to get a divorce. Then she could be put on government health care, and their entire life''s savings would be spared. I don''t know exactly when they divorced, but I know they had been divorced for at least ten years before I met them. And they were living as though they hadn''t signed those legal documents-as though they were still married. Which, in their eyes, they were-they just had to sign those documents so she could get affordable health care.
Divorce and marriage are funny funny things. Sometimes you hear about people who get married, get divorced and then end up getting remarried--to each other. And then staying happily married.
I think the conclusion I''ve come to from all of this discussion and all of my thinking, is that it''s really easy to get married (Hello! Britney!) and not so easy to get divorced. I also think that being divorced is a huge stigma, even though it''s less of one than it was in the past. And I''m not really sure why. I mean, it''s a legal breakup. Sure, sometimes it includes huge assets, alimony, child custody and child support, but most of the time that''s really not really the case.
Conclusion from where I''m standing: Pre-nups aren''t a bad idea. And if you don''t get to the nuptial agreement before the wedding, post-nups aren''t a bad idea either.
Haven
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What I find most interesting about this thread is this:
We have someone who said "I believe in being married forever, and so I believe that divorce is not an option for me and my relationship."
And then we have others who responded "But how can you believe that? You never know what will happen. Can''t you see that you *might* get divorced because so many other people do, and you can''t control your spouse, so how can you be so sure?"
The response: "Well, I still believe what I believe. You don''t have to understand it."
This reminds me of conversations about faith:
One person says "I believe in this deity/dogma/religion/belief/etc."
Another says "How can you believe that? What about these horrible things that have happened? What if some other deity evidences itself, what will you say then?"
The response: "Well, I still believe what I believe. You don''t have to understand it."
My question (in both of these conversations) is always--why do you care what someone else believes? Why are some people so adamant about trying to convert others to their belief system? Why does it bother people when other people believe in something that *they* themselves cannot buy into?
We have someone who said "I believe in being married forever, and so I believe that divorce is not an option for me and my relationship."
And then we have others who responded "But how can you believe that? You never know what will happen. Can''t you see that you *might* get divorced because so many other people do, and you can''t control your spouse, so how can you be so sure?"
The response: "Well, I still believe what I believe. You don''t have to understand it."
This reminds me of conversations about faith:
One person says "I believe in this deity/dogma/religion/belief/etc."
Another says "How can you believe that? What about these horrible things that have happened? What if some other deity evidences itself, what will you say then?"
The response: "Well, I still believe what I believe. You don''t have to understand it."
My question (in both of these conversations) is always--why do you care what someone else believes? Why are some people so adamant about trying to convert others to their belief system? Why does it bother people when other people believe in something that *they* themselves cannot buy into?
princesss
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I don''t know about other posters (actually, I''m not sure I''ve posted in this thread at all, but I''ve been following it), but I find this "Divorce is not an option" perspective fascinating. Really and truly. And so I see these conversations more as a struggle to understand (since it''s so far outside the realm of what many of us think), rather than a struggle to convert. I don''t particularly care what somebody does with their marriage, but I don''t understand this mentality and I''d really like to. So I see posts on here and think, "Yeah, I think that too! I wonder what somebody on the opposite side of the fence would do." So these complex stories are interesting (especially because things like addiction are not all that far "out there" - addiction happens to good people all the time), because I''m curious what somebody would do if they were in that position but didn''t feel they had the option to divorce.
But that''s just how I see it.
FrekeChild
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Who said anyone was trying to convert anyone else of the opposite mindset? I know I wasn't. I don't think that I've seen anyone else doing that either. Up until this point, I thought this discussion was going very well, and I know that I have had to really examine my own thoughts about this very carefully. I have put more thought and care into writing these responses on this thread than any paper I've written for my degree (either of them actually). Might I add that some of the papers written have been about marriage and divorce?
why do you care what someone else believes? I find it fascinating. As I said earlier, I was looking at this from an educational standpoint.
Why are some people so adamant about trying to convert others to their belief system? I'm not. I've tried to come up with scenarios where if I were of the "divorce is not an option" mindset, that I would have to seriously sit down and consider if my beliefs were more important than my sanity. Or safety. Or whatever. A "What the heck would I do if I were faced with such a terrible situation"?
Why does it bother people when other people believe in something that *they* themselves cannot buy into? Because when people don't understand the reasoning or logic behind something, they want it to make sense somehow. And if they can't make sense of it, might as well try to talk the person into seeing their point of view.
As for the last question, my logic within is weak. I daresay if I had an answer I would be much richer and more well known than I am now. Philosophers, academics and peacemakers have been wondering this same question for a very long time. If we had an answer, we wouldn't have war. But we also wouldn't have spirited discussion where people learn from each other. I think that would be really boring.
ETA: Agreed with Princesss, who posted while I was typing my response. That is exactly how I've been looking at this, and exactly my mindset for asking what I have, and coming up with scenarios that I have. I've been thinking about this for over 24 hours now, and I can't seem to stop.
Haven
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Whoa--I must have misrepresented my tone in that last post.
I believe I am just as fascinated with your persistent questions and scenarios, Freke, as you are with the "divorce is not an option" belief. That's all. I was curious about why this idea consumed your thoughts.
I grew up around a lot of spirited discussions about religious and non-religious beliefs. My father is in the clergy, so that had a lot to do with it. But it always fascinates *me* when people persistently present scenarios (like yours about possible future situations that would likely lead to divorce) to believers (of any idea) to seemingly challenge their beliefs in that situation. I clearly misinterpreted your use of these scenarios in the discussion.
If I offended you with my questions I'll happily ask them elsewhere. No harm intended.
Princesss--Thank you for your honest response to my questions. I appreciate the insight.
ETA: Freke--I realize I didn't apologize to you for that last post. I'm sorry for misinterpreting, and I hope I didn't offend you.
I believe I am just as fascinated with your persistent questions and scenarios, Freke, as you are with the "divorce is not an option" belief. That's all. I was curious about why this idea consumed your thoughts.
I grew up around a lot of spirited discussions about religious and non-religious beliefs. My father is in the clergy, so that had a lot to do with it. But it always fascinates *me* when people persistently present scenarios (like yours about possible future situations that would likely lead to divorce) to believers (of any idea) to seemingly challenge their beliefs in that situation. I clearly misinterpreted your use of these scenarios in the discussion.
If I offended you with my questions I'll happily ask them elsewhere. No harm intended.
Princesss--Thank you for your honest response to my questions. I appreciate the insight.
ETA: Freke--I realize I didn't apologize to you for that last post. I'm sorry for misinterpreting, and I hope I didn't offend you.
RaiKai
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Much like princesss and Freke, I have found this entire discussion has been INCREDIBLY respectful towards both sides despite the potential for some rather inflammatory material. It seems to me that everyone on here has even been appreciative of everyone's continued exploration of their beliefs and I am grateful to lucyandroger for continuing to expand and share her thoughts and I can understand where she is coming from - even if it it does not "fit" for me in other ways.
I care what others believe because I have a genuine interest in other people, their lives, how they interpret the world around them and so on. It is a genuine curiousity. I think curiousity is a wonderful thing, and so is being open minded to hearing others beliefs.
And in no way am I trying to "convert" others to my belief system. However, I am just as interested in sharing my beliefs, as hearing others. Often I find my beliefs challenged and I think that is WONDERFUL! It often causes me to pause and consider why my beliefs are as they are, and even modify, expand, deepen or lighten up on them! Great! I am however deeply intrigued by the "divorce is not an option" mindset as Freke stated in her post above, and trying to wrap my head around it, or put into context in my own life experiences.
It does not bother me at all that other people believe in things that I don't. I for example am not religious. I have several very religious friends and am very open to hearing their thoughts and religious beliefs. Never do they seek to impose them on me, and never do I seek to attack theirs. Sure, I may question them - as they do me - however it is always with deep respect and interest. There are plenty of times that there is NO way their belief fits with me; and it is not something I would be comfortable with (and say so) but I don't seek to convert them or have a problem with them believing in what works for them. Of course there are boundaries, if they "believed" in beating me with a rock hammer - that would be something I would DEFINITELY be bothered by, but I am keeping extreme situations out of this
ETA: Haven, I just saw where you posted a new post after I wrote this one so it may be redundant now
Can't speak for Freke or princesss but I definitely did not find your post offensive by any means!
Haven
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Thank you for your response, RaiKai.
I realize how my questions came off as a bit confrontational, that wasn''t my intention.
As an English teacher, I lead discussions about *ideas* for a living, so reading in on this discussion reminded me of these questions that I often have about particular responses to people when they share beliefs that are not widely accepted.
I''ve really appreciated reading everyone''s responses here, and I think that I just did a poor job of wording my own questions. My favorite thing about human discourse is learning about new ideas, so I certainly understand and appreciate everyone''s very healthy interest in that pursuit.
I realize how my questions came off as a bit confrontational, that wasn''t my intention.
As an English teacher, I lead discussions about *ideas* for a living, so reading in on this discussion reminded me of these questions that I often have about particular responses to people when they share beliefs that are not widely accepted.
I''ve really appreciated reading everyone''s responses here, and I think that I just did a poor job of wording my own questions. My favorite thing about human discourse is learning about new ideas, so I certainly understand and appreciate everyone''s very healthy interest in that pursuit.
princesss
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No problem, Haven. I think we''re lucky in that we''ve got a bunch of smart, articulate women who are genuinely curious and want to understand different perspectives. Unfortunately, it can lead to accidentally misreading the tone of a post when the discussion is about a belief as deeply held as people''s views on marriage. But I think we really all do want to understand each other, so I''d like to think we''re better off than many people that have this conversation and have it turn into a kind of "You''re wrong for not being exactly like me!" fight.
So if you''ve got any questions that you (or monkeyprincess or lucyandroger or anybody) would like to ask, I''m very happy to answer. Goodness knows you all have been very open about your thoughts and I''ve benefitted from it quite a bit.
Lilac
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I find this thread fascinating. I''m not looking to get mixed up in any debates or arguments, I just simply am going to state my feelings on this topic. I believe in divorce. I believe it''s something that''s necessary sometimes and for some people. My parents got divorced when I was young and I honestly can''t imagine what it would be like if they had stayed married (they''re SUCH different people, and truthfully, I''m not sure what led them to get married to begin with). I believe people in abusive relationships (whether emotionally or physically abusive) should get divorced if they feel it''s right for them. I believe people who have grown apart and no longer are in love should get divorced if they feel it''s right for them. I do believe in the concept of divorce.
However, I don''t believe in it for me. I know myself and I know my husband and I know that I can''t think of a single situation in which either of us would walk away or decide that divorce is the path we''re going to take. It just isn''t an option for us. We never bring up the word no matter how bad a fight might get, just like we never even considered breaking up when we were dating even if we had a terrible argument. Divorce just isn''t something I (or he) would ever even consider.
But what I do recognize is that it takes effort from BOTH parties - I can say we won''t get divorced because if any number of scenarios occur (addiction, fighting, gambling, health problems, cheating) we will work through it and go to therapy and talk about it and make our marriage work. But what''s SO important to recognize is that I can only control MY OWN actions. I will never want to divorce my husband (and I truly *believe* he will never want to divorce me and will want to work on our marriage *no matter what* happens) but I can''t control his actions. As of right now, the man I married would never want to get divorced. He would want to work on anything and everything to make the marriage work. He is a wonderful communicator and would do whatever it took to save our marriage if we were having problems. And I would do the same thing.
But who''s to say 30 years from now he won''t decide he doesn''t want to go to therapy if there are problems? How do I know he won''t decide it''s easier to walk away and start over than to go through months or years of therapy if it was necessary? I personally know myself and I know I would and could never feel that way. And I know my husband wouldn''t feel that way today. But do I know who he will be 30 years from now? No, of course not. Nobody knows what their spouse will be like 30 years down the road. I have FAITH that we will continue to work things out no matter what comes our way based on the person he is today and what we have been through so far, but I don''t know for certain that HE won''t change based on life events over the course of the next 30 years.
I think the reason people are having such a problem with the statement that "we will work on our marriage no matter what it takes no matter when it is no matter what is thrown our way and we will never EVER divorce and it''s not an option for us" is that you don''t know what the future holds. You can say you *yourself* would never want to divorce and it''s not an option for you and you would work on it no matter what, and you can say you know how your husband would react now, but what you can''t control is how he might react 30 years from now. Nobody knows that.
For me, I can say I''m confident that my husband and I will never get divorced based on what I know of him and our relationship at this present time. And I know our current feelings on marriage, issues in marriage, conflict resolution, and working through problems. But nobody can control the thoughts and actions of another person (certainly not another person in the distant future), and just because your husband (or my husband) feels a certain way right now doesn''t mean it won''t change 30 years from now. I can have faith that it will stay the same - but I can''t control what he does.
However, I don''t believe in it for me. I know myself and I know my husband and I know that I can''t think of a single situation in which either of us would walk away or decide that divorce is the path we''re going to take. It just isn''t an option for us. We never bring up the word no matter how bad a fight might get, just like we never even considered breaking up when we were dating even if we had a terrible argument. Divorce just isn''t something I (or he) would ever even consider.
But what I do recognize is that it takes effort from BOTH parties - I can say we won''t get divorced because if any number of scenarios occur (addiction, fighting, gambling, health problems, cheating) we will work through it and go to therapy and talk about it and make our marriage work. But what''s SO important to recognize is that I can only control MY OWN actions. I will never want to divorce my husband (and I truly *believe* he will never want to divorce me and will want to work on our marriage *no matter what* happens) but I can''t control his actions. As of right now, the man I married would never want to get divorced. He would want to work on anything and everything to make the marriage work. He is a wonderful communicator and would do whatever it took to save our marriage if we were having problems. And I would do the same thing.
But who''s to say 30 years from now he won''t decide he doesn''t want to go to therapy if there are problems? How do I know he won''t decide it''s easier to walk away and start over than to go through months or years of therapy if it was necessary? I personally know myself and I know I would and could never feel that way. And I know my husband wouldn''t feel that way today. But do I know who he will be 30 years from now? No, of course not. Nobody knows what their spouse will be like 30 years down the road. I have FAITH that we will continue to work things out no matter what comes our way based on the person he is today and what we have been through so far, but I don''t know for certain that HE won''t change based on life events over the course of the next 30 years.
I think the reason people are having such a problem with the statement that "we will work on our marriage no matter what it takes no matter when it is no matter what is thrown our way and we will never EVER divorce and it''s not an option for us" is that you don''t know what the future holds. You can say you *yourself* would never want to divorce and it''s not an option for you and you would work on it no matter what, and you can say you know how your husband would react now, but what you can''t control is how he might react 30 years from now. Nobody knows that.
For me, I can say I''m confident that my husband and I will never get divorced based on what I know of him and our relationship at this present time. And I know our current feelings on marriage, issues in marriage, conflict resolution, and working through problems. But nobody can control the thoughts and actions of another person (certainly not another person in the distant future), and just because your husband (or my husband) feels a certain way right now doesn''t mean it won''t change 30 years from now. I can have faith that it will stay the same - but I can''t control what he does.
FrekeChild
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No you didn't offend me, Haven. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone if I have.
I think that one reason that it's been consuming my thoughts is that because of my upbringing, it has been ingrained in me that divorce is always an option. This is regardless of a person/couple's denial of ever having to utilize it. I mean, no matter what someone says, it can still happen. I'm not saying it's going to, but it's still a possibility.
Anyway, enough of that.
My father, as I said before, is a bit of a conundrum. I have grown up in a VERY VERY VERY Catholic household. My dad is a hardcore Catholic as I mentioned before, but he's a divorce attorney. Catholicism doesn't believe in or condone divorce. When he divorced his first wife he had to apply for an annulment so he and my mom could get married in the Catholic church. That annulment wasn't granted until my parents had been (legally) married for 25 years.
Again, I can't reiterate enough just how Catholic my dad is. Lets just say that NM's archbishop showed up to my mom's funeral in support of my dad, and did not conduct the mass (I have never seen a mass where the archbishop was present and did not conduct it, considering I went to school a block away from his house, I've seen a lot of masses where he has been present).
So I've struggled to understand HIS standpoint my entire life. How can he be so devout to a religion where his profession is frowned upon?! I have never understood that, and in my almost 28 years, I've learned to just accept it, because he doesn't have an answer.
Perhaps not trying to justify things, and just standing back and saying, "It just is." is why I've just learned to accept it.
He has also said that he thinks it's foolish to believe in a religion where someone who may or may not have existed turned water into wine, and was produced from a virgin birth, but he still sticks with it. He can't explain that either, but these conversations I've had with him reflect to me that he's thought about everything. He's not just blindly following this, he has educated himself on this and analyzed this tradition he participates in, and no matter how foolish he may think it is, he still believes.
Regardless, to me, even through my very Catholic parents, divorce has always been an option. I worked in my dad's office for a total of about a year, and because of the things I saw, from about the ages of 20-23 I was completely turned off of marriage and having kids. This is just due to the experiences I had, and the things I saw in his office. I have witnessed terrible terrible things, things where the people who are the closest to you tear into you and essentially rip out your heart because they know you best, and they know what hurts you best. They know how to hurt you where you can potentially never recover. I've seen serious deception. I've seen a lot. I have not seen it all. I would probably lose all faith in humanity if I had seen everything that my dad has.
Which is one conclusion I've made about WHY I think he's so religious.
So to me, I've never thought about divorce as not being an option. Those women I mentioned in a post before (the drug addict and the sex addict) are very very very close to me, and I've seen the devastation that those things have caused. I've seen this woman (specifically the drug addict's wife) broken down and in despair, and I cannot fathom telling her that it's ok to keep trying to work out their marriage when she is puddled in a heap on the floor, in her deepest place and verbally telling me that death would be easier. So for me to sit down and try to think how I would still deny divorce as an option in those specific situations brought me to only one answer--estrangement. But how long could I last doing that? And would I be happy? Would I ever be able to trust my husband again? At that point, would I even want to?
And how bad of a situation can I think of? Could I still be married to that person in that situation? What would be bad enough for me (as a person who does not consider divorce an option) for me to start thinking that divorce could be an option? What is my dealbreaker?
For me, it just brings up more questions. I could keep going, but I'll spare you.
Of course, I have also been in an abusive relationship I couldn't get out of. There is no other feeling that brings out animal instinct like that of being trapped. And I was literally trapped. Trapped in the room I was in, trapped in my driveway, trapped in the relationship. You do desperate things when you are in desperate situations. I happened to resort to violence. I am not a violent person. (At first I typed "never" instead of "not" but I realized, I can't say that, because I have been.) Reliving those experiences, even now, ten years after the fact, is still bringing tears to my eyes and an adrenaline rush.
I'm not saying that anyone has to agree with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone that divorce is still always going to be an option. I'm just trying to draw my own conclusions about how I would act and react to these things if they were to happen to me. And it's interesting to hear from a person who really does believe that divorce is not an option, how they would handle these improbable, but still possible situations.
And to be honest, it freaks me out to take away my options of getting out for my well being. That is one conclusion I have come to about myself. I couldn't do that. Yes, when I got married I became one half of a partnership, but if it were to come down to it, I am still an animal and my survival instincts kick in. If it came down to sacrificing myself or my marriage, my self wins every single time.
So, perhaps it should serve as a word of warning to never take away that option from yourself. I couldn't ever do that now, after being through what I've been through and seeing what I've seen. When I was 16 I know I thought, "I'd never stay in an abusive relationship. I'm too smart for that." And less than a year later I was in one. And stayed in it for almost 4 years.
So that's where I'm coming from.
I think that one reason that it's been consuming my thoughts is that because of my upbringing, it has been ingrained in me that divorce is always an option. This is regardless of a person/couple's denial of ever having to utilize it. I mean, no matter what someone says, it can still happen. I'm not saying it's going to, but it's still a possibility.
Anyway, enough of that.
My father, as I said before, is a bit of a conundrum. I have grown up in a VERY VERY VERY Catholic household. My dad is a hardcore Catholic as I mentioned before, but he's a divorce attorney. Catholicism doesn't believe in or condone divorce. When he divorced his first wife he had to apply for an annulment so he and my mom could get married in the Catholic church. That annulment wasn't granted until my parents had been (legally) married for 25 years.
Again, I can't reiterate enough just how Catholic my dad is. Lets just say that NM's archbishop showed up to my mom's funeral in support of my dad, and did not conduct the mass (I have never seen a mass where the archbishop was present and did not conduct it, considering I went to school a block away from his house, I've seen a lot of masses where he has been present).
So I've struggled to understand HIS standpoint my entire life. How can he be so devout to a religion where his profession is frowned upon?! I have never understood that, and in my almost 28 years, I've learned to just accept it, because he doesn't have an answer.
Perhaps not trying to justify things, and just standing back and saying, "It just is." is why I've just learned to accept it.
He has also said that he thinks it's foolish to believe in a religion where someone who may or may not have existed turned water into wine, and was produced from a virgin birth, but he still sticks with it. He can't explain that either, but these conversations I've had with him reflect to me that he's thought about everything. He's not just blindly following this, he has educated himself on this and analyzed this tradition he participates in, and no matter how foolish he may think it is, he still believes.
Regardless, to me, even through my very Catholic parents, divorce has always been an option. I worked in my dad's office for a total of about a year, and because of the things I saw, from about the ages of 20-23 I was completely turned off of marriage and having kids. This is just due to the experiences I had, and the things I saw in his office. I have witnessed terrible terrible things, things where the people who are the closest to you tear into you and essentially rip out your heart because they know you best, and they know what hurts you best. They know how to hurt you where you can potentially never recover. I've seen serious deception. I've seen a lot. I have not seen it all. I would probably lose all faith in humanity if I had seen everything that my dad has.
Which is one conclusion I've made about WHY I think he's so religious.
So to me, I've never thought about divorce as not being an option. Those women I mentioned in a post before (the drug addict and the sex addict) are very very very close to me, and I've seen the devastation that those things have caused. I've seen this woman (specifically the drug addict's wife) broken down and in despair, and I cannot fathom telling her that it's ok to keep trying to work out their marriage when she is puddled in a heap on the floor, in her deepest place and verbally telling me that death would be easier. So for me to sit down and try to think how I would still deny divorce as an option in those specific situations brought me to only one answer--estrangement. But how long could I last doing that? And would I be happy? Would I ever be able to trust my husband again? At that point, would I even want to?
And how bad of a situation can I think of? Could I still be married to that person in that situation? What would be bad enough for me (as a person who does not consider divorce an option) for me to start thinking that divorce could be an option? What is my dealbreaker?
For me, it just brings up more questions. I could keep going, but I'll spare you.
Of course, I have also been in an abusive relationship I couldn't get out of. There is no other feeling that brings out animal instinct like that of being trapped. And I was literally trapped. Trapped in the room I was in, trapped in my driveway, trapped in the relationship. You do desperate things when you are in desperate situations. I happened to resort to violence. I am not a violent person. (At first I typed "never" instead of "not" but I realized, I can't say that, because I have been.) Reliving those experiences, even now, ten years after the fact, is still bringing tears to my eyes and an adrenaline rush.
I'm not saying that anyone has to agree with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone that divorce is still always going to be an option. I'm just trying to draw my own conclusions about how I would act and react to these things if they were to happen to me. And it's interesting to hear from a person who really does believe that divorce is not an option, how they would handle these improbable, but still possible situations.
And to be honest, it freaks me out to take away my options of getting out for my well being. That is one conclusion I have come to about myself. I couldn't do that. Yes, when I got married I became one half of a partnership, but if it were to come down to it, I am still an animal and my survival instincts kick in. If it came down to sacrificing myself or my marriage, my self wins every single time.
So, perhaps it should serve as a word of warning to never take away that option from yourself. I couldn't ever do that now, after being through what I've been through and seeing what I've seen. When I was 16 I know I thought, "I'd never stay in an abusive relationship. I'm too smart for that." And less than a year later I was in one. And stayed in it for almost 4 years.
So that's where I'm coming from.
FrekeChild
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RaiKai
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Lilac....
....my sentiments and experiences exactly.
And whatever someone's opinion on divorce, I cannot understand people that would ever use it as a threat or a power-game in any disagreement. Granted we don't exactly have what I would call heated arguments (my husband likes to talk to much for us to ever even have things build up to the point things get heated or what have you), however, even in the heat of arguments with past partners things like name calling or threats of breaking up are just no-go's for me. No matter how angry you may be at a partner's actions, or whatever issues you yourself have from your own past, there is just NO room for attacking the person, their vulnerabilities or their values
And whatever someone's opinion on divorce, I cannot understand people that would ever use it as a threat or a power-game in any disagreement. Granted we don't exactly have what I would call heated arguments (my husband likes to talk to much for us to ever even have things build up to the point things get heated or what have you), however, even in the heat of arguments with past partners things like name calling or threats of breaking up are just no-go's for me. No matter how angry you may be at a partner's actions, or whatever issues you yourself have from your own past, there is just NO room for attacking the person, their vulnerabilities or their values
princesss
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beadchick
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Okay, two things: the "I''m Catholic" concept. Yes, I am Catholic, too and I understand the Church''s teaching. However, before my mom filed for divorce approx 10 years ago, she went to the church pastor and told him about the verbal and emotional abuse she suffered with my father. The priest said to file the papers as my mom was not in what would be considered a healthy marriage, according to God. So, the "I can''t get divorced, I''m Catholic," argument, I don''t buy. It''s a major pain to get an annulment, but there it is. The Church doesn''t expect you to suffer and be miserable b/c you made a mistake (and I can see the blue boxes w/ this quote now...)
Number two: Not to stir the pot any, but lets say you fastforward 10 years, you have two small children and you''ve chosen to not work b/c you wanted to be home with those children and child care costs makes it not worth working. Lets say the future/fortune teller says that 10 years from now, you WILL be getting divorced. You don''t know the circumstances around it, but you will. Does this change or clarify anyone''s thoughts on the whole pre-nup/post-nup concept?
I know it is a contrived situation, I will grant you that, but imagine yourself in that situation, you don''t know how you got there, two rational people who started out loving each other deeply. Now what?
Number two: Not to stir the pot any, but lets say you fastforward 10 years, you have two small children and you''ve chosen to not work b/c you wanted to be home with those children and child care costs makes it not worth working. Lets say the future/fortune teller says that 10 years from now, you WILL be getting divorced. You don''t know the circumstances around it, but you will. Does this change or clarify anyone''s thoughts on the whole pre-nup/post-nup concept?
I know it is a contrived situation, I will grant you that, but imagine yourself in that situation, you don''t know how you got there, two rational people who started out loving each other deeply. Now what?
princesss
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swimmer
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beadchick
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Princesss,the point I am trying to make is, lets say it isn''t your decision. Lets say that HE wants the divorce. Lets say, in fact, that he''s already filed for it. The comment was made earlier in this thread that you can essentially, only control YOUR OWN behavior. Yes, this is contrived. But, it happens everyday.
If it were me, in this type of situation, 2 kids, not working, living life, being supported by my SO. Like Freke, I have my own catastrophic worst case scenario. IRL, FI goes on a lot of out of town business trips, he has to, that''s where the contracts are. In my nightmare, he meets another woman somewhere else and begins a relationship w/ her. Because I trust him and am busy living my life, he carries on this relationship and one day, I get served with papers.
Will this probably happen? No. We are committed to each other. And, I do trust him. He works hard for us and the life that we want to build together. But, I also know that it happens and I can''t control everything in life. Its just food for thought, or mental masturbation, however you want to see it.
If it were me, in this type of situation, 2 kids, not working, living life, being supported by my SO. Like Freke, I have my own catastrophic worst case scenario. IRL, FI goes on a lot of out of town business trips, he has to, that''s where the contracts are. In my nightmare, he meets another woman somewhere else and begins a relationship w/ her. Because I trust him and am busy living my life, he carries on this relationship and one day, I get served with papers.
Will this probably happen? No. We are committed to each other. And, I do trust him. He works hard for us and the life that we want to build together. But, I also know that it happens and I can''t control everything in life. Its just food for thought, or mental masturbation, however you want to see it.
monkeyprincess
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Beadchick, in your scenario, you wouldn''t need a prenup to deal with that though. In every state, he would obviously be required to pay child support, and if you were not working, he would be required to pay some sort of spousal support at least until you were able to shift into the workforce and reasonably support yourself. The point many were trying to make is that state law provides for these sort of situations.
princesss
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PumpkinPie
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I`m finding this thread fascinating too - I`ve had friends say the same thing to me either ` I don`t believe in divorce` or `divorce is not an option for me` - I agree with Haven about the similarities to conversations about faith and religion (plus the tooth fairy comment cracked me up!). My husband and I come from very intact families (no divorce in any of our families) - in fact my parents marriage was severely strained by a disease that drastically changed my father`s personality (and not for the better) - but they remain together.
I do not have personal religious faith and I don`t understand people who do, but I also don`t feel the need to understand or force people to believe what I believe (however much I think that they`re wrong
. However, I think the comment by Freke of whether or not your belief system is worth more than your sanity, should your life circumstances come to that point of safety and sanity being compromised by the marriage in which you`re chosing to remain.
I am a psychologist who works with individuals and couples - and I believe that more relationships can be saved from divorce than currently are - but I also believe that some should NOT be saved and that in the interests of safety and sanity, one or both of the parties should flee. My husband and I will work very hard to make sure that this situation never becomes a reality for us - but I am not an oracle and cannot predict all possible happenings in our future.
I do not have personal religious faith and I don`t understand people who do, but I also don`t feel the need to understand or force people to believe what I believe (however much I think that they`re wrong
I am a psychologist who works with individuals and couples - and I believe that more relationships can be saved from divorce than currently are - but I also believe that some should NOT be saved and that in the interests of safety and sanity, one or both of the parties should flee. My husband and I will work very hard to make sure that this situation never becomes a reality for us - but I am not an oracle and cannot predict all possible happenings in our future.
PumpkinPie
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