Pre-nups and financial stuff

[alli_esq]

Date: 3/5/2010 2:49:03 AM
Author: FrekeChild
.....
Remember, there are those things called ''Post Nuptial Agreements'' that are kind of taken not-so-seriously because it kind of sounds funny, but it''s still a legal way of protecting yourself.

Freke--you always have a great perspective, and I agree with everything you said...but just FYI for everyone--post-nuptials are just as serious matters as pre-nuptials and are viewed the same way by the courts...both are contracts between the parties, and as long as the contracts are entered into after full disclosure, with reasonable consideration, and without fraud or undue inducement, both pre and post-nuptials will both be upheld to the degree they cover issues which can legally be contracted between parties. (i.e. parties cannot make determinations of custody or child support prior to the birth of children...)

In other words, if you are not ready to contract prior to the marriage (if you don''t have the time or opportunity to meet with lawyers--and Haven is right, you should each confer with a lawyer--and fully disclose assets, etc. before you get married), a post-nup is another option available to you. The benefit of pre-nups are that they typically are done while the parties still like one another and can be more reasonable with one another--post-nups can also be done that way, and I have seen that, but often times, what happens is that post-nups end up being pre-separation agreements when the relationship has already begun to unravel...

(fyi--yeah, I''m a matrimonial lawyer, and nope, I don''t have a pre-nup...even though my father told me before I got married, and I quote: "You should really have a pre-nup--I wouldn''t go to a cobbler without shoes"...)

 

[panda08]

I have a friend who entered into an ante-nuptial agreement with her now ex-husband shortly after they got married. He had just sold a business he spent over a decade building and wanted to take it easy while she had been a life-long student and was about to enter private practice with substantial income potential. They agreed that, for the first 5 (or maybe 10, I can''t remember exactly) years of their marriage, their income would be separate property in order to allow her to accummulate some personal assets. Their marriage did not last to the end of the agreement but they had a relatively amicable divorce.

Family law varies from state to state so I agree with those who have suggested you and FI consult with an attorney. No harm entering into marriage with eyes wide open, in consultation with an expert, so that the two of you can make an informed decision as to whether a pre-nup is something that can address you and your FI''s specific concerns.

 

[smiles]

Mer - you are right that the OP i talking about future earnings and I cannot speak to that because I am not a lawyer but in terms of things like family jewelery or heirlooms, as an example, the pre nup could be set up to say that the husband would get those items back. I think that in a prenup you can also decide how things would be split if there was a break up so that is another thought. In this case the pre-nup would not be to protect existing things just family heirlooms, it could protect a future inheritance etc...

LucyandRoger - I will also agree to disagree here and leave it at that.

 

[gls]

A pre-nup is a very personal thing and its up to the couple to decide whether it''s right for them or not.

I will be having one due to the fact that my parents will be giving me a house as inheritance. I did not put a dollar into purchasing it and it is their gift to me to use as I see fit, they have decided that their gift to FI is that he will live there with me rent free which takes a lot of stress away for us. I am fine with that so is FI.

As for what you can put into pre-nups, its almost whatever you feel like!
I have heard of couples putting in the chores that the husband/wife should be doing (although not bound by law) and even separating out assets to the closest cent.

What I have also witnessed in divorce proceedings, unless there is a pre-nup with a clause (eg spouse cheated) the wife is entitled to 70% of the couples assets if they have dependent children or unless otherwise negotiated. This may differ from state to state and country to country.

Although you cant predict what you will have in the future, I am sure you can put in a pre-nup that the husband will take what he contributed to the marriage financially and the wife will take what they contributed financially or however seen fit. You might have a children clause which will say that although the husband/wife will take what they brought into the marriage the primary caregiver of the children will need support.

I''m no lawyer but I''m pretty sure you can put whatever you see fit in your prenup as it is an agreement of sorts between you and your partner.

 

[sonnyjane]

Date: 3/5/2010 12:42:01 PM
Author: laughwithme
Nope, no prenup here. Our list of 'assets' is quite short...coupla cars, a sweet TV, a camera, my bling

Sounds like our assets, only include an overweight cat as well - and if DH and I were to divorce, I know there is no WAY he would fight for the cat lol, so no need for a pre-nup haha.

In all seriousness though, I have nothing against them, and if I did have valuable assets, I probably would have considered a pre-nup to protect them. Honestly, if we divorce, I would stand to gain much more from him by not having one lol.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/5/2010 2:47:57 PM
Author: Haven

As for our finances, we combined everything. I manage all of the money and investments because I'm a better bookkeeper. Before we married I was the saver and DH was the spender, but we've had many conversations about money and what type of relationship we want to have with it, and I've since converted him to saversville. This method works best for us simply because it is easier for me to manage everything now that it is combined. When you marry, will you each take care of a different set of bills? Then maybe you don't have to combine. I think you'll find a method that works for you once you try a few different ways of handling things. We don't really spend much beyond our basic bills, so that makes everything a lot easier, too.

Haven...let me have a talk with your husband. my #1 rule...never let your wife handle the money.

 

[jaylex]

Date: 3/5/2010 2:54:34 PM
Author: lucyandroger

Date: 3/5/2010 2:23:02 PM
Author: smiles
PP has said it best so far. I think there are two very important things to remember. 1. Most people do not marry with the intention of divorcing later down the line. Noone has ANY way of knowing what could happen in the future and noone can GUARANTEE that they will not get divorced. Even if you fundamentally do not believe in divorce until you have been in the position of being in a horrible marriage for whatever reason and wanting to leave one cannot say what they would do. To this end, people also do not PLAN on getting into car accidents or having their houses burn down in a fire or on dying suddenly and unexpectedly yet be all have car insurance, home insurance and health/life insurance to protect ourselves and our lived ones. 2. While everyone is happy and in love now there are many emotions that go along with divorce and MOST people do not stay level headed and calm throughout the entire divorce proceedings. Just because you feel that if you did get divorced you could work it out fairly does not mean that you will be in the same head space at that time.
At the end of the day it is a very personal decision.

This is where we fundamentally differ. We can agree to disagree. If somehow I end up in a horrible marriage, we are going to do whatever it takes to turn it into a better marriage - not disolve the marriage. This is just how we feel - not saying everyone has to agree with me.

Divorce is not something that happens to you like a car accident or a house fire. You do not just fall into a divorce. You make a decision and then file for divorce.

I'm not judging anyone - my own parents are divorced. There are many things I can say that I would never do in life no matter the circumstances, and getting a divorce is one of them.

ETA - When I mentioned a fair distribution in my previous post, I was referring to following the family laws of the state - those do not change just because of your 'head space at the time.'




..... I believe that typically couples that get divorced love each other when they get married just as much as couples that do not. In the end, divorce is a choice, not something that just "happens" to a couple.

I agree 110% with everything you have said. My parents were divorced when I was 2 and my father has had 4 failed marriages total. Fiance's parents were also divorced (his dad 2 times). I truly believe (after seeing my father's relationships) that if both parties would be willing to work on the marriage, instead of giving up on it or directing their attention towards a person outside of the marriage, I think that any marriage can be salvaged. But that is the hard part... most people these days are out for themselves first. And let's face it, most of the time it is much easier to give up on something that seems challenging (or nearly impossible sometimes), than to risk your pride and try to work on yourself to try to make a failing marriage work. I feel like divorce is the end of a long road that couples themselves choose (whether they admit it or not) to go down over a period of time.

My fiance and I have vowed to each other to "stick it out" no matter what. We believe that love is a choice or a behavior (for lack of a better word) that can be learned, strengthened, or weakened over time. We are going into our marriage with the idea that divorce is simply not an option. So we feel no need for a pre-nup. Plus, what's mine is his and what's his is mine, so what would we divide anyway?

Now there are certain instances that i feel a divorce is an option. That would be cases of substance abuse where the addicted party refuses to seek treatment, or physical violence (especially towards children). I also feel very strongly that in cases of second marriages where the husband or wife is bringing children in from a previous marriage, that husband or wife's first priority is his/her children's safety. If that is threatened, measures need to be taken, which may include divorce.

Which is also why I feel that people should not enter into marriages too quickly. the longer you get to know the person, generally the more "warning" signs that can point to abuse will come up.

there's my 2 cents lol.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 3/5/2010 3:26:23 PM
Author: alli_esq

Date: 3/5/2010 2:49:03 AM
Author: FrekeChild
.....
Remember, there are those things called 'Post Nuptial Agreements' that are kind of taken not-so-seriously because it kind of sounds funny, but it's still a legal way of protecting yourself.

Freke--you always have a great perspective, and I agree with everything you said...but just FYI for everyone--post-nuptials are just as serious matters as pre-nuptials and are viewed the same way by the courts...both are contracts between the parties, and as long as the contracts are entered into after full disclosure, with reasonable consideration, and without fraud or undue inducement, both pre and post-nuptials will both be upheld to the degree they cover issues which can legally be contracted between parties. (i.e. parties cannot make determinations of custody or child support prior to the birth of children...)

In other words, if you are not ready to contract prior to the marriage (if you don't have the time or opportunity to meet with lawyers--and Haven is right, you should each confer with a lawyer--and fully disclose assets, etc. before you get married), a post-nup is another option available to you. The benefit of pre-nups are that they typically are done while the parties still like one another and can be more reasonable with one another--post-nups can also be done that way, and I have seen that, but often times, what happens is that post-nups end up being pre-separation agreements when the relationship has already begun to unravel...

(fyi--yeah, I'm a matrimonial lawyer, and nope, I don't have a pre-nup...even though my father told me before I got married, and I quote: 'You should really have a pre-nup--I wouldn't go to a cobbler without shoes'...)

Agreed. I should have explained better. I meant that the general public seems to scoff a bit at post-nups, and takes pre-nups more seriously. Legal contracts are legal contracts and will be upheld in the courts accordingly.

 

[FrekeChild]

My $.02 to those who don't consider divorce as an option.

You CANNOT control anyone except yourself.


Yes, that may sound pessimistic, but it's realistic. You guys sound very idealistic, and really I hope that you're right, but we're people-human beings, and males in particular are biologically programmed to "spread their seed". Not to say that all men are cheaters, and blah blah blah, but we're humans and we make mistakes. I've seen hundreds of divorces.

Including (very recently) my two cousins that had been married for 25 years. They certainly never thought they'd be getting divorced. No one ever really does. Otherwise, no one would ever get married. But the reality is, people can change. People can grow apart. That's just life. How boring life would be if we all stayed the same forever.

I agree that everyone should do whatever they can to make their marriage work, but I've seen that time and time again where that just doesn't make it work. I've also seen some long time marriages that shouldn't have lasted as long as they have, and the misery is clearly evident in both people, their interactions together and with other people. I know they didn't plan on that when they got married.

But serious things happen. Most couples who suffer the loss of a child have very serious marital problems, and I believe it's about half that end up divorcing. Bankruptcy, incapacitation of a spouse, financial issues, physical impairment, crime, poor judgment, serious illness, depression, job loss, psychological issues, outside interference (members of the opposite sex, parents, family members, friends, random people) addiction, abuse, tragedy, etc. You can't know your reactions to these situations until you experience them. Your spouse doesn't either.

For instance, my father turned into what was essentially a loner with alcoholic tendencies when my brother died. He cannot, to this day, talk about my brother without a complete breakdown or walking away from the situation. My father is normally a very very social creature that drinks only around other people. He spent about 5 years after my brother's death in a very deep depression. Just an example, but you just can't predict how things will affect you.

My mantra- Never say never. And what happens if someday, 35 years in the future, the denied situation happens--then what? A complete psychological break because part of your fundamental self belief system has disintegrated? And as it happens, (I don't remember the specific stats on this) but most children from divorced parents go onto divorce themselves.

Again, this got kinda rambly, but it's my $.02.

Oh and to stay relatively on topic, I don't think pre-nups (or post-nups) are precursors to divorce.

 

[lucyandroger]

Hey Freke,

I understand that it is hard for people that do not see marriage the way I do to understand my point of view. Let me explain it this way: To me, getting married is like adopting a child. You take someone not blood related to you and make them part of your family. You are committing to that child that no matter what, they will be part of your family and you will deal with any problems that come up together, as a family. We see marriage the same way - creating a family bond that cannot be broken.

I do not claim to control anyone else but myself and of course, there will be unexpected events. Here''s the thing, bankruptcy, death of child, etc. does not necessarily lead to divorce. No matter how we react to a tragedy, we are willing to work through hard times, even hard years because divorce is not an option. Just because most of our society does see it as an option and would prefer to divorce does not mean we have to. Again, it is a choice.

I''m not surprised that there is more divorce among children of divorced parents. We typically learn our views on family and relationships from our own parents. I believe differntly about marriage than my parents.

In our country, most people believe that divorce is valid for a whole host of reasons. I couldn''t care less what other people do with their relationships.

 

[lulu]

Date: 3/4/2010 8:09:46 PM
Author: purrfectpear
The advice here is not entirely accurate. Prenups are useful to discuss assets both prior AND earned during the marriage. In fact assets that both parties bring to the marriage are automatically theirs to keep unless they are comingled or converted into other assets during the marriage. The one thing a prenup CANNOT legally establish is one of the things you mentioned. Children. No court will uphold a prenup that attempts to predetermine custody or child support.

This is the law in Michigan. Except that the Court can always invade separate assets if there is a showing of need. Can't speak for any other state. Law degree PP?

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 3/4/2010 6:58:16 PM
Author:beadchick
Okay, so, I am going to go ahead and bring up what I think will likely be an unpopular topic (and will probably post this in the Newlyweds area too): Prenuptual agreements. Does anyone have one? Is anyone considering doing one? Most of my friends seem to feel that either a) it makes it too easy to get out of a marriage or b) if you are really in love, you wouldn't have one.


I am a product of divorce, thank GOD my mom worked and was able to take care of us, but you hear so many horror stories, you know? I love my fiance, I think we are fairly well-suited to each other, but when most people get married (even those with pre-nups), I am pretty sure they weren't planning they would be getting divorced one day. I work in a field where one day, I will do very well financially; he is in the same situation. Plus, I will be marrying the oldest son and inheriting family jewelry. I would want HIM to know that he will get family belongings back, and I want to know, for the both of us, that we will be bound to do the best we can for our children if something horrible were to happen. If there are legal documents mutually agreed to, then there is no point in arguing over things.


I am also wondering how people manage finances. We tend to keep things separate, just works better that way. I'm a saver, he's a spender. So, he'll do the mortgage and I'll be responsible for the retirement funds. We just thought it would be easier to go towards 'type' and work with it.


So, thinking on the marriage, what kind of long-term financial preparations are you all making?

For the record, I am a lawyer so have some biases (but this is NOT legal advice in any way shape or form!).

Pre-nups do not make it "easier" to get out of a marriage. You still need to go through the process, it does however prevent a lot of the bitter fighting. Believe me, I come across many people who wish they had gotten past their idea that they were "not romantic" and gotten one. Studies show couples that have pre-nups actually tend to get divorced LESS often then those who don't. A very possible reason for this is because it requires couples to actually discuss issues like finances, and be aware of what is at stake, BEFORE they get married. Many couples don't do this and find out too late they are highly financially incompatible or have VERY different expectations of marriage.

For me, being in love also means being prepared to discuss reality and the hard questions. Real love is NOT blind. For me, real love means being able to discuss even the things that aren't so romantic. And...reality check...most people don't go into marriage with an intention for it NOT to last "forever" yet 50% still divorce.

Both my husband and I were in previous common-law relationships that ended, and a "cohabitation agreement" in both cases made the process AFTER the relationship was over easier. It did not make the decision to LEAVE the relationship easier. Besides, if the only thing keeping me in a relationship was the "difficulty of leaving" due to not having a pre-nup, well, that would NOT be a relationship I would want to be in. To me that just seems like a terribly odd thing to hinge your commitment to one another on.

That being said, we did not get a prenup when we got married. Both of us would have been willing to do so, and discussed it, however we looked at our financial situations in detail with one another, and felt comfortable going ahead without one. It had nothing to do with believing "real love means not needing a prenup" or feeling a prenup made it easier to leave, it just was right for us in OUR situation. Neither of us has children, or any assets at this point that we are not willing to share according to the laws that apply. We did NOT go into this marriage planning for it to end and we deeply love and respect one another, and are committed to each other and this marriage for "all of eternity" as we said in our vows and regularly to one another and we DO put in the work to that end, however, we also both realize that most people don't go into it planning for it to end...and it still does. This applies whether you are a "child or divorce" or not, whether your "tradition" believes in it or not, etcetera.

As for finances, we discussed these a lot before we got engaged, before we married, and still do financial checkups on a regular basis. Right now I am the main income earner, as my husband is back in school. On the other hand, my husband has a substantial retirement plan that has been set up so we will both share it in our future so it balances out. We keep one another aware of what is going on for us financially. We each have individual accounts and credit cards, as well as joint account and credit cards. We share some expenses, and handle others individually. Each couple really needs to have their OWN plan for finances that works for them as a couple relative to their income, expenses, lifestyle, etc.

Anyway, you should talk to an attorney in your area. Prenups apply differently in different jurisdictions.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 3/6/2010 1:59:51 PM
Author: lucyandroger
Hey Freke,

I understand that it is hard for people that do not see marriage the way I do to understand my point of view. Let me explain it this way: To me, getting married is like adopting a child. You take someone not blood related to you and make them part of your family. You are committing to that child that no matter what, they will be part of your family and you will deal with any problems that come up together, as a family. We see marriage the same way - creating a family bond that cannot be broken.

I do not claim to control anyone else but myself and of course, there will be unexpected events. Here's the thing, bankruptcy, death of child, etc. does not necessarily lead to divorce. No matter how we react to a tragedy, we are willing to work through hard times, even hard years because divorce is not an option. Just because most of our society does see it as an option and would prefer to divorce does not mean we have to. Again, it is a choice.

I'm not surprised that there is more divorce among children of divorced parents. We typically learn our views on family and relationships from our own parents. I believe differntly about marriage than my parents.

In our country, most people believe that divorce is valid for a whole host of reasons. I couldn't care less what other people do with their relationships.

Seeing as how I am an adopted child, I can see your POV/example, and I understand it better than you do. I just don't agree. Plain and simple.

With adoption it is often an adult choosing to adopt the child. Normally (unless the child is quite a bit older) the child has no say. Parent wants child. Parent picks out child. Parent and child live together for 18 years (+/-). Perhaps they have a happy relationship, perhaps it's not. Unless that child takes some initiative and runs away from home/emancipates themselves from the parent, they are stuck together. Or, like that thread from not long ago in FHH about the mother who adopted the child, kept him for a year, never felt "that bond", and gave him to another family.

Marriage is different. It's a mutual agreement. Both people have to agree. One person stops agreeing, and the marriage is over.

You are correct that terrible events do not necessarily lead to divorce. I'm saying statistically, it happens more often than not. But that doesn't mean it's the direct cause, it is often the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak. Or the event that pushes the tiny cracks into potholes.

Tell me, because I am curious, but how long have you and your SO been together? Have you gone through tragedy already? What kind, if you don't mind me asking?

I am curious. I've been surrounded by divorce my entire life. My parents were happily married for 32 years, but I saw a lot of strife, and a lot of conflict within their relationship in that time. It could have very easily been pushed to a breaking point had something truly terrible happened at the right (wrong) time. Anyway, my studies were in relationships/family but specifically marriage, stemming from my father's work. I am the relationship counselor of my group. I love to study relationships and can often predict their demise with startling accuracy.

So I am very interested to hear more about your relationship. I have met people who have said before that they would not divorce, and some of them haven't, some of them have. Regardless, it is not a mindset that I am extremely familiar with, because it is often somehow chained to a person's religious/moral upbringing and often age. I don't know of anyone (in person) who is anywhere near my age who holds to the belief that divorce is not an option. So I want to know more! (But of course, only as much as you are willing to share!)

 

[tropiqalkiwi]

Date: 3/9/2010 10:16:06 AM
Author: lucyandroger


In any case, this our lifestyle choice and is not for everyone (obviously

).

I just want to say I admire your willingness to separate your personal beliefs/choices from those others make. I have been running into many people recently that are not able to let others live as they see fit, and it really bothers me.

It is so refreshing to see someone strong enough in their beliefs that they don''t need a herd of people who agree with them to validate those values. I wish you and your SO much happiness in your life together!

As for the original question: We considered a prenup and my husband went to a lawyer to talk about it, but in the end we didn''t end up using one because it wouldn''t have given us any additional legal benefit.

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 3/9/2010 10:16:06 AM
Author: lucyandroger
I wonder how many of those people went into marriage with divorce off the table rather than the usual mentality of ''we hope we don''t get divorced''?

I am only quoting this part as it seems to not be as "personal" as the other stuff you did not want quote, hope that is alright?

In my experience, MANY people go into marriage with "divorce off the table". Many of my clients come into my office saying they had entered into their marriage with both partners saying divorce had been agreed to "not be an option" when they got married. The thing is....you are trying to force certainty on the uncertainty of life when that happens.

The problem with that way of thinking is....they often have not discussed how they will handle things should they feel they are feeling stressed to that point either as a couple or individually. They have not done the work of exploring what would happen IF theoretically one of them wanted a divorce, or they both did. My husband and I both recognize that divorce IS an option. We have both done tremendous amount of work on ourselves as individuals both before and after we met, and as a couple however to develop the self-awareness, communication skills, respect and other tools to minimize that option actually being taken. We certainly have faced some tragedies and some very difficult life stresses however we have certainly remained committed to one another and our relationship despite being aware "divorce is an option". Being aware that divorce is an option does NOT make someone automatically any less committed to one another. For us, it strengthens our commitment and dedication to each other and our relationship so that we do not find ourselves considering that option. I am also confident in our ability to work through issues within our relationship, yet I am still aware that at the end of the day, we are each individuals and we do not have control over the others decisions in life.

When my husband and I met, we had both previously been in common-law relationships where we and our respective partners also believed that separating was not an option. Guess what....people change and sometimes you don''t always grow together. My husband and I are both great planners as well, however we also learned some hard lessons in life that well, life is what happens when you are making other plans and uncertainty is a fact of life no matter how much you plan.

Again, my husband and I do not have a prenuptial agreement. I am a lawyer, and I do see the benefit in them for many couples however. That being said, it did not work for us as a couple. That had nothing however to do with deciding divorce was not an option, rather in recognizing that we were both comfortable with the laws as they would apply to us in this jurisdiction.

And please be aware I am not in ANY way saying you are naive here, just commenting on the idea that going into marriage with the idea "divorce is not an option" automatically leads to more commitment, or that being aware that it IS an option in anyway means you are less committed to one another and the relationship.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/9/2010 11:15:05 AM
Author: RaiKai

Date: 3/9/2010 10:16:06 AM
Author: lucyandroger

I am aware of all of the statistics on tragedies and divorce. I wonder how many of those people went into marriage with divorce off the table rather than the usual mentality of 'we hope we don't get divorced'?

And please be aware I am not in ANY way saying you are naive here, just commenting on the idea that going into marriage with the idea 'divorce is not an option' automatically leads to more commitment, or that being aware that it IS an option in anyway means you are less committed to one another and the relationship.

Don't have much time but just wanted to jump in here and say that I in NO way meant to imply that being aware that divorce is an option for a couple makes them any less committed to one another and the relationship.

The sentence before the one you quoted was dicussing the studies Freke brought up and my question was related specifically to those studies. I added it back in (in blue) so you can see. Just a musing not a judgement.

I can only speak for my relationship and am not attempting to pass judgement or assess any one elses.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/9/2010 10:54:41 AM
Author: tropiqalkiwi

Date: 3/9/2010 10:16:06 AM
Author: lucyandroger


In any case, this our lifestyle choice and is not for everyone (obviously

).

I just want to say I admire your willingness to separate your personal beliefs/choices from those others make. I have been running into many people recently that are not able to let others live as they see fit, and it really bothers me.

It is so refreshing to see someone strong enough in their beliefs that they don''t need a herd of people who agree with them to validate those values. I wish you and your SO much happiness in your life together!

As for the original question: We considered a prenup and my husband went to a lawyer to talk about it, but in the end we didn''t end up using one because it wouldn''t have given us any additional legal benefit.

Thank you, tropiqalkiwi!

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 3/9/2010 11:44:50 AM
Author: lucyandroger

Date: 3/9/2010 11:15:05 AM

Author: RaiKai

Date: 3/9/2010 10:16:06 AM

Author: lucyandroger

I wonder how many of those people went into marriage with divorce off the table rather than the usual mentality of ''we hope we don''t get divorced''?

And please be aware I am not in ANY way saying you are naive here, just commenting on the idea that going into marriage with the idea ''divorce is not an option'' automatically leads to more commitment, or that being aware that it IS an option in anyway means you are less committed to one another and the relationship.

Don''t have much time but just wanted to jump in here and say that I in NO way meant to imply that being aware that divorce is an option for a couple makes them any less committed to one another and the relationship.

The sentence before the one you quoted was dicussing the studies Freke brought up and my question was related specifically to those studies. I added it back in (in blue) so you can see. Just a musing not a judgement.

I can only speak for my relationship and am not attempting to pass judgement or assess any one elses.

Ah, got it, I did not see that you were specifically indicated the study. Anyway I was just adding in my own anecdotal "evidence" regarding couples who did take "divorce off the table" and ended up there anyway and also was not attempting to pass judgment on your relationship.

I actually find it interesting that of the "self confessed lawyers" on this thread so far, including myself, none of them have opted for prenuptial agreements (unless I missed someone?). Interesting enough, that is not something limited to these forums either. Many of my fellow lawyers also often have opted out of prenuptial agreements when they have gotten married (after having practiced some law).

 

[lucyandroger]

Raikai, No problem. It''s always hard having a discussion online cause of this. Glad we cleared it up!

Re your last point. I have a theory about this! A lot of non-lawyers hear these horror stories about the spouse that "takes everything" or "leaves them with nothing" so they run to get a pre-nup and they end up wanting a pre-nup that says exactly what the family law of that state says anyway. Lawyers, even if they don''t practice in that area, know enough to know that the law typically provides for a fair distribution of the marital assets. There are always cases where a spouse is hiding money but a pre-nup isn''t going to fix that!

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 3/9/2010 12:24:54 PM
Author: lucyandroger

Raikai, No problem. It''s always hard having a discussion online cause of this. Glad we cleared it up!

Re your last point. I have a theory about this! A lot of non-lawyers hear these horror stories about the spouse that ''takes everything'' or ''leaves them with nothing'' so they run to get a pre-nup and they end up wanting a pre-nup that says exactly what the family law of that state says anyway. Lawyers, even if they don''t practice in that area, know enough to know that the law typically provides for a fair distribution of the marital assets. There are always cases where a spouse is hiding money but a pre-nup isn''t going to fix that!

Yes, this was pretty much my thoughts too, and very much the reasoning my husband and I had in opting out of a prenuptial.

Much of a prenuptial affirms the law. And there are certain places it can''t override the law (i.e. respecting custody and child support issues). Where it can be of benefit, at least here, is in respect of opting out of spousal support, or a home that one of the parties owned prior to the marriage being turned into a matrimonial home, but most people just want what the law these days essentially provides anyway. For these latter reasons, there are definitely people I have met who regret not having had one (particularly where the marriage was relatively short).

 

[Haven]

lucyandroger--I just wanted to share that DH and I view marriage similar to the way you and your DH view it. I applaud you for sharing so much on here to help make your point, and I just wanted to tell you that you aren''t alone.

Like you, we also view most things very differently than the rest of the western world, so we are used to being outside of the norm in many ways, as well. We rarely discuss our views on marriage with others, but when *other* things come up it''s always interesting to see how adamantly our friends challenge our beliefs or try to tell us that we just aren''t being realistic. I think that conclusion is a non sequitur, really. What they are really trying to say is that *our* perception of reality does not match *their* perception of reality, which I''m certain is absolutely correct. Our realities and beliefs are colored entirely by our experiences and the conclusions we choose to draw from those experiences. It just so happens that DH and I happen to draw very different conclusions than most, that''s all.

That being said, I do not scoff at pre- or post-nuptial agreements at all. I tend to believe (and hope) that people make the decisions that are best for them, and leave it at that. I recently witnessed my parents'' 30+ year marriage dissolve, and it was ugly. If they could have drawn up some sort of document that would have helped make that go more smoothly, I sure wish they would have done it.

 

[lilyfoot]

Date: 3/9/2010 12:42:26 PM
Author: Haven
lucyandroger--I just wanted to share that DH and I view marriage similar to the way you and your DH view it. I applaud you for sharing so much on here to help make your point, and I just wanted to tell you that you aren''t alone.

Like you, we also view most things very differently than the rest of the western world, so we are used to being outside of the norm in many ways, as well. We rarely discuss our views on marriage with others, but when *other* things come up it''s always interesting to see how adamantly our friends challenge our beliefs or try to tell us that we just aren''t being realistic. I think that conclusion is a non sequitur, really. What they are really trying to say is that *our* perception of reality does not match *their* perception of reality, which I''m certain is absolutely correct. Our realities and beliefs are colored entirely by our experiences and the conclusions we choose to draw from those experiences. It just so happens that DH and I happen to draw very different conclusions than most, that''s all.

That being said, I do not scoff at pre- or post-nuptial agreements at all. I tend to believe (and hope) that people make the decisions that are best for them, and leave it at that. I recently witnessed my parents'' 30+ year marriage dissolve, and it was ugly. If they could have drawn up some sort of document that would have helped make that go more smoothly, I sure wish they would have done it.

lucyandroger, and Haven, I am also in agreeance with you guys. I know my view on marriage is also different than the majority of the western world, and that is ok with me. My FI and I know ourselves as individuals, and as a couple, and we do what works for us. I was glad to see you take such a strong stand on your beliefs, lucyandroger.

I also have no negative or positive feelings about prenuptial agreements others make within their relationships. I believe everyone (and every couple) should do what they feel is best for themselves.

 

[FrekeChild]

Lol! I do not think you are some naive teenager!

I'm sorry if my post came off as giving you that impression-it was certainly not intended that way. I would imagine that you can tell I am very passionate about this subject, and that's probably why it came off as it did.

Having said that, I think Rai Kai's longer post pretty much summed it up for me, and was said better than I could have said it.

Get ready for some rambling as I think-type this out.

I remember upthread somewhere, I believe it was Jaylex that said, "We are making the choice to be together." I suppose this is just from my more liberal thinking, but it seems as though this decision is taking away choice. Yes, the initial choice to be together is both of yours to make, but this choice seems to be taking away future choice? I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that, just that that is how I see it. But why can't you rescind on that choice? Perhaps it is mostly the wording I'm getting hung up on here, but in using the word choice, it can't really negate future choice. What is to say that people can't change their minds and make the choice to do so? Or that one person might make a choice without realizing it could potentially lead to the demise of a relationship?

I grew up in a liberal politically, Catholic/conservative household where the breadwinner is a divorce attorney. His first wife left him because she decided that my father wasn't what she wanted (she went on to marry a man ten years younger than herself, and generally made an @$$ out of herself, but whatev). What is ironic is that mostly because of my mom, my dad eventually became what his first wife had wanted. Anyway, his first wife left, and he married my mom some years after. Their marriage was one where divorce was an option (I mean, the man is a divorce attorney for goodness sakes!) but never a highly considered option. Even though they were/are highly conservative in that particular incidence and would have never seriously considered divorce, all they could do was hope that it didn't happen to them.

My father is an excellent predictor of relationships. My mom was always very vocal about how she liked or didn't like a boyfriend or a relationship I was in, but my dad tries to help relationships end amicably and as fairly as possible for a living. And all of that practice has made him good at figuring out if people really want to make a relationship work. Or if the relationship should even be worked on. He didn't want to divorce his first wife-it was against his religious/moral beliefs, but she didn't want to be with him and she made that happen. Because of his first marriage, every person that walks through his office doors gets asked point blank if they think there is any chance of reconciliation. Even if they say no, he goes through a series of questions that can indicate to him if this is true or not. If he thinks there is any chance that the relationship can be saved, he presents the idea of counseling and goes from there. Unfortunately, most of the time, if a person steps into his office, the relationship is probably beyond repair. As a result of his job, he is extremely sensitive to the inner workings of a relationship.

Not that the above has much to do with the subject, I'm just thinking on the screen.

I think it breaks down to this: divorce isn't a failure. And I think it's dangerous to make it that way (not saying that anyone here does, but I think that is often insinuated in discussions about divorce). I do think there is a certain aspect of naivete, but a LOT of hope, in thinking that marriage is forever. I hope it is forever, but I know I can't control everything. Often I can't even control myself, at least not in the way I might want to.

I guess I'm just saying that things happen. People change. We don't know, even with the most educated of guesses, how we will react in every single situation. And unfortunately we can't talk about every single circumstance and nuance that could potentially happen. There would be a lot less divorce (and war, and other bad things) if that were the case.

I just worry about saying, "It can happen to everyone else, but not me." I just think that it is healthier to acknowledge that you can't control everything, than it is to completely deny it. It seems that anyone who denies even the farthest outside possibility, invites that possibility into their lives. This is just how I see it.

I hope that every wedding/relationship I've seen on PS is life lasting, and that the people involved are always happy, but that's not life, unfortunately.

Thank you for sharing lucyandroger. I am very appreciative. I hope that you don't take the above post as an attack on you or your relationship or your choices (or anyone else that has spoken up here), it is just my musings about my acknowledgment that, as much as I may never want consider divorce (because who does, really?) there is still an outside chance that it could happen to me.

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 3/9/2010 2:00:07 PM
Author: FrekeChild


I think Rai Kai's longer post pretty much summed it up for me, and was said better than I could have said it.

And I just read this post and I feel the same way about your post, ha!

I think, for me at least, you hit the nail on the head with your comments about "future choice". That is exactly what it is for me as well. For me, being in a relationship is in itself a choice. Hopefully my husband and I each make that continuous choice everyday to continue our lives together. We make many choices in our daily lives individually as well as together, and we are always actively checking in with ourselves on our "choices". I do believe that we will continue to choose to be together, or else we would not have gotten married. However, that being said, should one day he no longer feel that is the right choice for him then it is not my choice to make FOR him. And, I do believe I will actively continue to make that choice everyday to be in relationship with him as again I would not have married him otherwise, but IF for some reason in the future that choice is just not one that I cannot make for certain reasons then why should by "past self" be able to take that choice away from my "future self"? We meant our vows with every ounce. Neither of us had seen our vows beforehand, but we both talked about this being for eternity. We meant that. We still mean that. But one day....maybe one of us won't.

And I totally agree that divorce is not a failure. And life after divorce certainly is not either. I know countless people who have gone through a divorce and had amazing lives after, either in another relationship or not. I think of my mother who as a young Catholic bride was adamant against divorce. It was definitely off the table. My father agreed. Well, seven years later, with two small children and one more on the way, she no longer was able to make that choice as my father made his own to leave. He married his mistress, had another child and they are still very happily together 26 years later. My mother met a man not that many months later; that man has been my stepfather for 25 years. They only just got married a couple weeks ago in a very private ceremony - I bawled my eyes out. I have no question they will make it after 25 years and MANY challenges including my mother's battle with Stage III breast cancer a few years ago. They are still like newlyweds after all these years. Seriously, I am grateful my parents divorced. That is not to say it is was not difficult or something people should choose easily, however, it is NOT always the tragedy it is made out to be.

As uncouth as it is to say, there are many people I know who are still together who really should of been divorced eons ago. They are together because of a sense of obligation to their tradition, or their hard line against divorce, or fear of that unknown, and yet they are miserable individually and together. There is no violence, or infidelity...but they are no longer thriving or even really "living" together. And, they have stopped seeing that they always have a choice to be in the relationship, or to leave it. Instead they have settled for some sort of existence where they seem to be just waiting it out and not having to make either the choice to recommit to improving their relationship, or making the choice to leaving. It's quite sad to see that happen really.

Though I hope that my husband and I never go down that road, and we certainly are committed to doing what it takes NOT to go down that road, I appreciate the option IS out there. The traditions of the past (i.e. not being allowed to divorce) may seem glamorous in an age where it seems many take that route "too easily" however I would expect many of those in the past would of greatly appreciated the freedom of having the choice.

 

[FrekeChild]

RaiKai, you and I are on the same wavelength.

Especially that part about people being together out of obligation and tradition. My aunt and uncle come to mind instantly. He is absolutely miserable and it shows in everything, but she is entirely dependent on him for everything. I mean it. He pumps her gas because she doesn''t know how, he writes the checks because she doesn''t know how, and she lives a blissfully ignorant (and expensive) lifestyle and he resents her with every fiber of his being. I mean it when I say that it reverberates through family gatherings.

And it is so sad to watch both of them be...I guess, selfish. She takes and takes and takes, but he won''t leave, and would rather be miserable than have that mark of divorce upon him. He sees divorce as a failure, and he has rubbed it in my father''s (my uncle''s little brother) face since his first marriage started to go downhill. Fortunately for my dad, he is blissfully unaware most of the time that his brother is acting this way towards him, otherwise their relationship would be more strained than it is already.

I think that if I considered divorce to not be an option for me, I wouldn''t consider marriage an option either. Whatever non-logic-type-sense that makes.

 

[lucyandroger]

This is why I love PS. Lot of intelligent, interesting women.

Thanks, Haven and lilyfoot! I knew we were in the minority but was starting to wonder if we were the only ones.

Freke and RaiKai, your posts make lots of sense and really give me a view into how you see marriage. Thank you for sharing as well!

I gladly give up future choice to divorce in exchange for the comfort, stability, and sense of family that a commitment not to divorce provides.

Just goes to show you - everyone is different, every relationship is different, and therefore, every marriage will be different!

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 3/9/2010 5:15:27 PM
Author: lucyandroger
This is why I love PS. Lot of intelligent, interesting women.

Thanks, Haven and lilyfoot! I knew we were in the minority but was starting to wonder if we were the only ones.

Freke and RaiKai, your posts make lots of sense and really give me a view into how you see marriage. Thank you for sharing as well!

I gladly give up future choice to divorce in exchange for the comfort, stability, and sense of family that a commitment not to divorce provides.

Just goes to show you - everyone is different, every relationship is different, and therefore, every marriage will be different!

But you''re not really giving up your future choice to divorce, are you? You''re just as able to legally get a divorce as anyone else is. So although you''re saying that you''ll never use that option, it''s still there. So I would argue that you have the same amount of comfort, stability and sense of family that any other married person does.

(Unless of course you''re drawing up an ironclad prenuptial agreement that will prevent a future divorce from ever taking place.) I''m not a lawyer but I doubt something like that would hold up in court, would it?

My parents have been happily married for 42 years. I was raised Catholic and the Catholic church also teaches that divorce is not an option. I don''t consider divorce an option for me, but I will also freely admit that I can''t predict the future.

 

[RaiKai]

No problem lucy...though I will clarify my husband and I are committed to one another and the relationship and not going the divorce route, enjoy a sense of stability and feel like and consider ourselves a family even if we are aware divorce is an option. We are committed to sharing our lives together and to us those enjoyments are rooted in who we are and what our relationship means for us even while being concscious of the option. We did not choose to marry lightly or without a full appreciation that we were making a lifelong commitment.

 

[beadchick]

Wow! So, I''ve been reading this the past couple of days and what I am appreciating is the thoughtfulness into everyone''s responses. This is why i am loving pricescope! I didn''t even know a post-nup was an option. I never thought that my little question would bring about so many responses. The thing that is interesting to me is how many people have thought about it and how many have decided AGAINST the pre-nup. It seems that as part of the discussion, it has brought you and your spouses together, whatever you feel on the subject. This has been really valuable for me. Thanks all!

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 3/9/2010 8:19:45 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 3/9/2010 5:15:27 PM
Author: lucyandroger
This is why I love PS. Lot of intelligent, interesting women.

Thanks, Haven and lilyfoot! I knew we were in the minority but was starting to wonder if we were the only ones.

Freke and RaiKai, your posts make lots of sense and really give me a view into how you see marriage. Thank you for sharing as well!

I gladly give up future choice to divorce in exchange for the comfort, stability, and sense of family that a commitment not to divorce provides.

Just goes to show you - everyone is different, every relationship is different, and therefore, every marriage will be different!

But you''re not really giving up your future choice to divorce, are you? You''re just as able to legally get a divorce as anyone else is. So although you''re saying that you''ll never use that option, it''s still there. So I would argue that you have the same amount of comfort, stability and sense of family that any other married person does.

(Unless of course you''re drawing up an ironclad prenuptial agreement that will prevent a future divorce from ever taking place.) I''m not a lawyer but I doubt something like that would hold up in court, would it?

My parents have been happily married for 42 years. I was raised Catholic and the Catholic church also teaches that divorce is not an option. I don''t consider divorce an option for me, but I will also freely admit that I can''t predict the future.

Of course we will have the same legal right as anyone else to get divorced. I was addressing the previous posters that were discussing how saying that divorce is not an option would be taking choice away from their future selves. I cannot compare my sense of stability or comfort to anyone else''s. I am talking about in my relationship and how I feel.

Look, I''m not trying to convince anybody of anything and have never said I can predict the future (just control my future actions). I honestly couldn''t care less if the whole world thought we were going to divorce in the future. I''ve just been sharing a (clearly minority) view.