shape
carat
color
clarity

Roe v. Wade.

Abortion Rights Get to the Heart of the Doctor-Patient Relationship​

— These decisions reflect the moments when our patients need us most​

by Jill Kalman, MD, and Stacey E. Rosen, MD June 28, 2022


"


A photo of a female physician talking to her young adult female patient.

A woman pregnant with twins showed up to an appointment with her cardiologist. She had a history of preeclampsia, the rapid onset of extremely high blood pressure, a medical emergency that can cause organ damage or failure. Or death.
The condition already had claimed the life of her unborn child during a previous pregnancy. The current pregnancy, the cardiologist explained, could prove fatal to the patient, her twins, or all of them.

About one in 25 pregnancies in the U.S. lead to preeclampsia -- it's one of many reasons physicians have to discuss the health risks of "simply" being pregnant. That's a fragile conversation because we physicians approach the doctor-patient relationship with reverence.
That reverence is missing from the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling that overturned Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling on abortion rights. The ruling kills shared decision-making between patients and doctors and has already led 11 states to ban or severely limit abortion, with a total of 26 states "certain or likely to ban abortion."
The decision also misses that abortion is more than a reproductive right: It is healthcare. More than 250,000 doctors, via the American Medical Association(AMA), agree. The AMA restated its support for shared decision-making. Members voted to adopt a resolution that "opposes any effort to undermine the basic medical principle that clinical assessments, such as viability of the pregnancy and safety of the pregnant person, are determinations to be made only by healthcare professionals with their patients."

The Supreme Court ruling disregards the sanctity of those determinations and eliminates basic healthcare while setting the stage for reducing other safe medical options. Some political leaders already are discussing restrictions and bans on medical abortions, morning-after pills, birth control pills, and intrauterine devices. That's dangerous because it doesn't acknowledge that, as legal restrictions on abortions rise, so does the proportion abortions considered to be "least safe."
A recent cover of The Lancet, written in response to the leaked draft of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito's opinion, framed the problem accurately: "If the U.S. Supreme Court confirms its draft decision, women will die. The Justices who vote to strike down Roe will not succeed in ending abortion, they will succeed in ending safe abortion. Alito and his supporters will have women's blood on their hands."
We physicians, on the other hand, promised to protect life when we began our medical training. It's clear the Supreme Court does not have a lock on protecting life: But we physicians do. And we always have, zealously.

From the moment we meet our patients, we're asking for their trust, even though that relationship begins as one between strangers. We ask these strangers to undress for a physical exam and answer questions about their health and medical histories, which often lead them to share the most intimate details about their lives.
When patients share with us the strain of their family dynamics, work obstacles, sex lives, drug use, and loss, it can be revelatory. We're not just collecting data; it's profound when patients demonstrate that level of vulnerability and trust.
We certainly learn about establishing patient trust in medical school. But until we're out of the medical school setting and practice medicine more independently, we may not yet know that faith, too, is bound up in the doctor-patient relationship.
Our patients have faith in our understanding and our judgment. They have faith that we have their best interests at heart. Sometimes we need faith that our guidance will lead our patients to make healthy decisions. We doctors may need extra faith when we don't fully comprehend a patient's choice. Yet, it is not our obligation to agree with that choice. We treat our patients with expertise and compassion regardless.

Those decisions can be life-altering, which makes it a privilege to walk alongside our patients as they decide how to care for themselves and their loved ones. Those moments are when our patients need us most.
It might've more easily averted a medical catastrophe to tell the patient with preeclampsia to end her pregnancy. But our professional responsibility is more nuanced.
The conversation with her and her family had to make ample space for neutral expertise, compassion, patience, and a deep respect for the patient's autonomy. There is no room for judgement and stonewalling between doctors and patients. There is no room for the cruel pressure of religious judgment, political control, and sexual shame, all of which undermine a relationship we consider holy.
We medical professionals are guided by a passion for helping others. For many of us, it's a calling to learn and to innovate, to offer more medical and surgical paths -- not to reduce safe medical options to the point that our patients are in danger. We work to balance what our patients need and want while helping them understand their medical histories and build healthy futures.

As they build those futures, we may not care for every choice our patients make. But we do have to care for our patients and show them grace in the face of life-or-death decisions.
The patient with preeclampsia was determined to have her babies after learning of the potentially catastrophic possibilities her pregnancy posed. Her decision placed her and her physician on the very edge of her personal medical risk -- and with expert, compassionate guidance, she and her babies survived.
That delicate balance is both the nature of choice and the heart of the doctor-patient relationship. We look to preserve and sustain life in the face of circumstances that threaten it. It's a fragile dynamic, but one that we treat as sacred and, hopefully someday again, legally unshakeable.
Jill Kalman, MD, is the senior vice president and chief medical officer and deputy physician-in-chief of Northwell Health. Stacey E. Rosen, MD, is the senior vice president of the Katz Institute for Women's Health and professor of cardiology at the Donald and Barbara Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell.
"
 
Some of the people who who say they are middle of the road or don't quite understand in the end are making these arguments:

1 -- Abortion is not as shameful as it used to be, therefore it should be reigned in
>>>> counter: what they are REALY saying is that sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is not as shameful as it used to be, and not compliant with their moral or religious beliefs, so it should be reigned in and they are willing to accept hundreds of thousands of maternal deaths and millions of unwanted children slowly crushed by poverty, draining our economy and interfering with our ability to deal with environmental issues like global warming, just to enforce their views on sex.

2. Abortion is more common than it use to be
>>>>>>> counter: it is actually less not more common than it used to be. Also teen pregnancy rates have gone down.
>>>>>>> Other counter: the same people who say they want abortion to be less common argue against other measures that reduce abortion such as low cost health care, sex education, and contraception.

Have we heard any other argument at all against pro-choice? Cause I can't find one.
 
I don't know what happens to the bounty now. That law effectively stopped all abortions anyway so Texas is at the forefront of trampling on women's rights.

My older daughter asked last night if she can go to college out of state. It's heartbreaking to feel like you need to move because of the lack of human rights.

My daughter says she wants to move out of the US. It's a sad thing when people are so discouraged that they want to leave.
 
Prolifers do lie about a lot of things… like an IUD is not an abortifacient.

Also, an 8 week old abortion looks like a loogie you spit out when you had a sinus infection, not a cute looking little embryo that looks like a baby,

There is no early on “heartbeat” as we know it as the heart isn’t fully developed with muscles ready to contract and expand until around 18-20 weeks. What we have been calling a ”heartbeat“ is really fetal cardiac impulses @LilAlex can you verify? A doctor told me this.
 
Some of the people who who say they are middle of the road or don't quite understand in the end are making these arguments:

1 -- Abortion is not as shameful as it used to be, therefore it should be reigned in
>>>> counter: what they are REALY saying is that sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is not as shameful as it used to be, and not compliant with their moral or religious beliefs, so it should be reigned in and they are willing to accept hundreds of thousands of maternal deaths and millions of unwanted children slowly crushed by poverty, draining our economy and interfering with our ability to deal with environmental issues like global warming, just to enforce their views on sex.

2. Abortion is more common than it use to be
>>>>>>> counter: it is actually less not more common than it used to be. Also teen pregnancy rates have gone down.
>>>>>>> Other counter: the same people who say they want abortion to be less common argue against other measures that reduce abortion such as low cost health care, sex education, and contraception.

Have we heard any other argument at all against pro-choice? Cause I can't find one.

I don't care how much sex anyone of any status has so your argument doesn't work for me. And as I have said everyone who is pro-choice must understand that according to the Pew study over half of the country want some timeframe restrictions. And according to studies abortion is rising since 2017, not declining. I am all for sex education, low cost healthcare, and contraception.

With that I'm out of this conversation as there is no point because most here don't want to hear anything but agreement.
 
I don't care how much sex anyone of any status has so your argument doesn't work for me. And as I have said everyone who is pro-choice must understand that according to the Pew study over half of the country want some timeframe restrictions. And according to studies abortion is rising since 2017, not declining. I am all for sex education, low cost healthcare, and contraception.

With that I'm out of this conversation as there is no point because most here don't want to hear anything but agreement.
I don't want to argue with you, just bringing up the bolded - the states that are removing abortion access are also the ones reducing sex education and contraception. It would be one thing if they were going hand in hand - removing abortion BUT increasing other things (I would still disagree tbh, but it would be a better step), but they are just removing all. Abstinence only doesnt work and only 13 states require that info taught in sex ed must be medically accurate! So what are the other 37 states teaching?! That is why people think this shouldnt be a states right issue and should be protected federally.

As a side note, I'm not even sure why kids are able to "opt out" of sex ed. Like you can't opt out of math can you? I will say that if you want to send your kid to a religious school and they have their own beliefs on that is a different topic, but for public schools this should be basic anatomy and required.
 
There is nothing more condescending than infringing upon a woman's right to make a decision about their own body.

Compromise can only happen when free to make an equally weighted choice.
 
St. Luke's in Missouri will no longer offer plan B to rape and incest victims.


I’m hoping there is a special place in hell for the people who made this decision. Let’s take a traumatized woman who feels like she has no control and traumatize her further. These people are flipping sadistic.

The reversal of Roe vs Wade is about controlling woman.

Thank you @ItsMainelyYou for your posts in this thread.
I hope you know how appreciated you are in this community.
 
Hi,
What is so hard to understand that some posters want parameters placed around abortion, others think the outrage that has been expressed on these pages seems overdone for we have methods in place that prevents pregnancy. All posters have agreed that women should be able to have abortions. No need to become nasty. Their critical thinking is just fine. They are just not as caught up in frenzy as some of you.

There are those who are at least able to express themselves in their own words instead of using other people's words constantly. I prefer to read those that are able to think for themselves. I am able to deal with others opinions.

I too have had enough. I will back out of this thread. I am pro choice.

Annette

Annette
 
But see—is abortion a right? Were we all born with the right to abort? And if so, where does that leave men who want to opt out of fatherhood?
Not an analogy. It’s an evaluation of your argument.

Well, it was. Beginning in 1973, until last week. Just like gay marriage, using contraception, interracial marriage, are still rights. At least for now.
 
I don't want to argue with you, just bringing up the bolded - the states that are removing abortion access are also the ones reducing sex education and contraception. It would be one thing if they were going hand in hand - removing abortion BUT increasing other things (I would still disagree tbh, but it would be a better step), but they are just removing all. Abstinence only doesnt work and only 13 states require that info taught in sex ed must be medically accurate! So what are the other 37 states teaching?! That is why people think this shouldnt be a states right issue and should be protected federally.

As a side note, I'm not even sure why kids are able to "opt out" of sex ed. Like you can't opt out of math can you? I will say that if you want to send your kid to a religious school and they have their own beliefs on that is a different topic, but for public schools this should be basic anatomy and required.

I agree with you @telephone89. States banning abortion altogether are not following what a majority of Americans believe. If they do it they will have a whole host of other problems to deal with and the women will suffer for it. The problem with making things a federal issue rather than state's is where does that stop. I don't know if the states' elected leaders can ever come to an agreement on codifying it.

Opting out of sex ed sure wasn't an option for me as a youngster and neither for my kids. I don't think it should be an option either.

I know I said I was done with this thread but I am always willing to discuss with someone who wants to without outrage.
 
I have been “dooms scrolling” since all of this happened and I am so furious and heartbroken at the same time. @missy sums it up perfectly. It’s all rather SIMPLE in fact - a woman should have ownership over her own person and do what she wishes with her body. It’s nobody else’s business. The whole “get over it” thing regarding a miscarriage is not only insensitive but has no logic. Women who choose to have abortions aren’t going into it lightly or as a form of birth control. They aren’t necessarily “over it” and wrestle with the decision. But the point it that it should be THEIR decision. This absurdity is going to have a catastrophic effect on our kids and I have shed tears over this fact. Also, most policymakers and politicians don’t really give a sh*t about the “unborn” but are just trying to please their base. The entire thing makes me sick.
 
Did someone in this thread post about camping?
 

Attachments

  • 10FF546A-D59E-4BCA-A67F-E144C5DEF14E.png
    10FF546A-D59E-4BCA-A67F-E144C5DEF14E.png
    540.7 KB · Views: 23
  • ADCB14EA-337C-491E-98D4-6324AC1F4174.png
    ADCB14EA-337C-491E-98D4-6324AC1F4174.png
    365.3 KB · Views: 23
What we have been calling a ”heartbeat“ is really fetal cardiac impulses @LilAlex can you verify? A doctor told me this.

I haven't done all my homework on this but this is my understanding, @whitewave. A few heart muscle cells grown in a dish under the right conditions can begin to "beat" synchronously and spontaneously, IIRC. There is a huge difference between electrical activity and a vigorous pumping action that provides essential blood (= nutrient) flow to the whole body. And even then, why the primacy of the heart? Brain doctors say the heart just exists to pump blood to the brain and kidney doctors say the heart just exists to pump blood to the kidneys! The heart is no more pivotal to life than any of the (many, many) other essential organs.

This is part of the reason why precise physiological definitions of the emergence of "personhood" are so kooky. "When [this] happens" or "Once [that] happens," etc.
 
Prolifers do lie about a lot of things… like an IUD is not an abortifacient.

Also, an 8 week old abortion looks like a loogie you spit out when you had a sinus infection, not a cute looking little embryo that looks like a baby,

There is no early on “heartbeat” as we know it as the heart isn’t fully developed with muscles ready to contract and expand until around 18-20 weeks. What we have been calling a ”heartbeat“ is really fetal cardiac impulses @LilAlex can you verify? A doctor told me this.

We can make cardiac cells in a dish beat together. That doesn’t make a Petri dish a person, so the whole heartbeat thing is just marketing to me.
 
I think what I find the most baffling is that some responses here don’t want to agree on what exactly a pregnancy is. Have we gotten to the point that the concept of pregnancy (and therefore, abortion) is a matter of semantics? Language?
Bc some of you are advocating the use of the terms fetus, embryo, and parasite —according to the host’s perception of their pregnancy. But why even use the term pregnancy then? Why did we all grow up hearing doctors announce that we were pregnant, with child, that you will have a baby? Have we gotten to the point that we are using language to dehumanize the experience of pregnancy and thereby make an abortion more acceptable? If so, how can we function as a society when we can’t even agree on definitions of basic words? Or is this our new world? I mean. We have come a long way in redefining gender. Thoughts? What challenges would this redefinition of pregnancy present in our daily functions?
 
I think what I find the most baffling is that some responses here don’t want to agree on what exactly a pregnancy is. Have we gotten to the point that the concept of pregnancy (and therefore, abortion) is a matter of semantics? Language?
Bc some of you are advocating the use of the terms fetus, embryo, and parasite —according to the host’s perception of their pregnancy. But why even use the term pregnancy then? Why did we all grow up hearing doctors announce that we were pregnant, with child, that you will have a baby? Have we gotten to the point that we are using language to dehumanize the experience of pregnancy and thereby make an abortion more acceptable? If so, how can we function as a society when we can’t even agree on definitions of basic words? Or is this our new world? I mean. We have come a long way in redefining gender. Thoughts? What challenges would this redefinition of pregnancy present in our daily functions?

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean?
There is no redefinition as they all have Latin roots. These are the basic words.
Some of the terms were in use in the ancient world where others came into being in the medieval period, a few later in the 18th(like zygote). They are, and have always been, the terms used. For example, fetus means offspring, or to hatch- like an egg, but in this case the woman is the egg containing the fetus. It begins at eight weeks after the embryonic stage and continues until birth.
Baby is just another term, and also middle English.
A scientific term for the 'baby' would be neonate- newly born outside of the womb.
I don't find any of them dehumanizing. They are precise in explaining cyclical stages of development. It's the most biologically natural thing there is.
I use all terms because they are correct.

Pregnant is used by science as descriptor of the condition. It just means pre-birth.
I don't understand the need or the drive to emotionally ascribe negative connotation to medical or common terms as anything other than an appeal to sway sentiment over reason.
Terms like baby are used because it's easy to say as an umbrella term of the process. Fetus has a more precise definition attached to fully explain what is happening biologically at that place in said cycle. Pregnant is used as it's as basic as it gets. A woman or animal, pre birth. Just like prenatal means, before birth. It's a common and easy descriptor for a complex biological process.
It doesn't materially change anything. There is no debate over terms. It is used to foster greater understanding of the topic.
 
I think what I find the most baffling is that some responses here don’t want to agree on what exactly a pregnancy is. Have we gotten to the point that the concept of pregnancy (and therefore, abortion) is a matter of semantics? Language?
Bc some of you are advocating the use of the terms fetus, embryo, and parasite —according to the host’s perception of their pregnancy. But why even use the term pregnancy then? Why did we all grow up hearing doctors announce that we were pregnant, with child, that you will have a baby? Have we gotten to the point that we are using language to dehumanize the experience of pregnancy and thereby make an abortion more acceptable? If so, how can we function as a society when we can’t even agree on definitions of basic words? Or is this our new world? I mean. We have come a long way in redefining gender. Thoughts? What challenges would this redefinition of pregnancy present in our daily functions?
I am right there with you. If it is desired, it is a child or a baby. If it is undesired, it is a fetus, zygote, parasite, etc…

We get excited for our friends and family when they tell us they are expecting. We go to gender revel parties and baby showers to share in the excitement of the upcoming birth. We mourn with our close friends and family after a miscarriage or stillbirth. Also, if a pregnant woman is in an accident and dies, the person causing the accident can be charged with two deaths - mother and child. These are the “desired” babies and society uses language to reflect that.

But for the “undesired” (speaking generally), there isn’t a celebration that they are going to be born. There isn’t the same mourning at the ending of their existence through abortion. They aren’t looked at the same as the “desired” ones, therefore society has different terms for them.

Again, I’m speaking generally and to the use of language as referred above. That is all.
 
Last edited:
Here's an interesting anecdotal story....

When I lived in Australia, I had a female doctor for a period of time who had 3 children. One was conceived while she had an IUD (sperm bypassed and impregnanted), one while she was on the pill (she got food poisoning and had vomiting and got pregnant when she had less than 100% protection), and one while using condoms (it broke).

Just goes to show - sometimes you just can't help it.

As for definitions - it's not individual - it's science:

1) a zygote starts at conception as a single cell organism. It divides quickly and becomes a multi cell organism called a blastocyst, which implants into the uterine wall, roughly 2 weeks after conception, tho it can be both faster or slower.

2) Once implanted, this multi cell organism becomes an embryo, a developmental stage that lasts till the beginning of the 11th week of pregnancy - or the beginning of the 9th week after conception.

3) The embryo is then known as a fetus for the remainder of the pregnancy and becomes a neonate or a newborn at birth.

These are developmental stages and are accurate. "Baby" just means an animal newly or very recently born, and can apply to any animal. Consequently, our use of the term 'baby' is more sentimental and convenient than anything, and is more a descriptive than an accurate term - especially since many parents refer to their children as babies for years.

In lieu of anything else, tho, 'baby' is a term universally understood, so is used accurately to that end. For myself, I'm of the "if it looks like a, sounds like a, smells like a, feels like a - then it's probably a (fill in the blank)." So to me, a baby becomes a baby when it looks and functions like a baby, as I perceive that to be - probably around 20 weeks. Prior to that, I'd use the term embryo or fetus. But that's just me, and everyone is different.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to point out that the perception that certain words are dehumanizing pregnancy represents a certain mindset that the child, parasite, embryo, fetus, baby, whatever, is a human. This relates to the debate about the "official" definition personhood which, I mean, is more controversial than ever.

"Killing a child for your own life" or "removing the embryo to preserve the health of the host" are both describing the same thing, and both carry certain (or lack thereof) emotional implications. There's no "correct" way to describe one thing, it only shows the persons perception and emotions towards it. I used the word parasite, a word with emotional implications that is the polar opposite of perception of "an innocent child", to convey that doesn't matter what it is, the woman should have the choice to do what she thinks is right for her own body. Even if the general concensus supports childbirth, she has the right to go against how abortion is perceived. Removing that right is like saying that the woman doesn't know any better, which, in my opinion, is more dehumanzing.
 
Last edited:
A few things I find dehumanizing:

treating woman as brood mares;
treating babies like commodities ala Comey-Barrett's statement that the surplus of babies is low for those who want to adopt so we need to increase the surplus;
deputizing citizens to spy on one another and offering bounties for reporting abortions;
jailing women for having miscarrriages;
citizen intrusion into private medical care;
the heinous dehumanization of raped women by those elected to represent them.

Screen Shot 2022-06-30 at 7.34.08 AM.png
 
A few things I find dehumanizing:

treating woman as brood mares;
treating babies like commodities ala Comey-Barrett's statement that the surplus of babies is low for those who want to adopt so we need to increase the surplus;
deputizing citizens to spy on one another and offering bounties for reporting abortions;
jailing women for having miscarrriages;
citizen intrusion into private medical care;
the heinous dehumanization of raped women by those elected to represent them.

Screen Shot 2022-06-30 at 7.34.08 AM.png

Why these quotes aren't on every commercial for a Democrat, is beyond me.
 

"...Those more acquainted with Ginsburg and her thoughtful, nuanced approach to difficult legal questions were not surprised, however, to hear her say just the opposite, that Roe was a faulty decision. For Ginsburg, the landmark 1973 Supreme Court decision that affirmed a woman’s right to an abortion was too far-reaching and too sweeping, and it gave anti-abortion rights activists a very tangible target to rally against in the four decades since."

Just thought I would drop this here.
This was bound to happen.
 
Why these quotes aren't on every commercial for a Democrat, is beyond me.

Because they're too damn polite or naive. Maybe they still subscribe to Michelle Obama's philosophy of going high when they go low. The party sits around with their heads up their butts getting out maneuvered.
 
Last edited:
Just thought I would drop this here.
This was bound to happen.

I agree with Ginsburg's reasoning. What I hated to see happen was to have the entire thing pushed back to the states to decide because what I feared has happened -- additional discrepancies in how "rights" are applied leading to more inequality among this country's citizens. The notion that every right has to be listed in the Constitution in order to be recognized as legitimate is refuted in the 9th amendment.
 
Because they're too damn polite or naive. Maybe they still subscribe to Michelle Obama's philosophy of going high when they go low. The party sits around with their heads up their butts getting out maneuvered.

Agreed-they keep playing by the rules while everyone else is cheating.
 
I am right there with you. If it is desired, it is a child or a baby. If it is undesired, it is a fetus, zygote, parasite, etc…

We get excited for our friends and family when they tell us they are expecting. We go to gender revel parties and baby showers to share in the excitement of the upcoming birth. We mourn with our close friends and family after a miscarriage or stillbirth. Also, if a pregnant woman is in an accident and dies, the person causing the accident can be charged with two deaths - mother and child. These are the “desired” babies and society uses language to reflect that.

But for the “undesired” (speaking generally), there isn’t a celebration that they are going to be born. There isn’t the same mourning at the ending of their existence through abortion. They aren’t looked at the same as the “desired” ones, therefore society has different terms for them.

Again, I’m speaking generally and to the use of language as referred above. That is all.

Agree. And this is why I posted earlier about miscarriage but I guess I wasn’t too clear bc some posters focused on the technical term rather than the outcome.
I think we have gotten to the point that the significance of pregnancy is in the eye of the host and not the beholder.
 
When I miscarried, it was still a fetus to me.
 

"...Those more acquainted with Ginsburg and her thoughtful, nuanced approach to difficult legal questions were not surprised, however, to hear her say just the opposite, that Roe was a faulty decision. For Ginsburg, the landmark 1973 Supreme Court decision that affirmed a woman’s right to an abortion was too far-reaching and too sweeping, and it gave anti-abortion rights activists a very tangible target to rally against in the four decades since."

Just thought I would drop this here.
This was bound to happen.

Roe v Wade didn’t go far enough- it was under right to privacy. It should have been under something more solid and that’s partly why we are where we are now. :(
 
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Top