Roe v. Wade.

[ItsMainelyYou]

But abortion is legal right now and we still have crime, poverty, inequality. Lots of it. We can blame so many other systems for these issues. Why blame birth rates?

That would be a logical fallacy.
A specious argument.
We have murder too, should we get rid of all laws?

 

[Matata]

But abortion is legal right now and we still have crime, poverty, inequality.

Ok stop. You said you wanted a discussion based on logic so do your homework before you start throwing out logical fallacies. The stats showing a decrease in abortions, crime, poverty when Roe v Wade was law are on-line. Minorities and the poor are negatively affected by lack of and lack of access to reproductive health care more than whites. This is not new info.

 

[nala]

Ok stop. You said you wanted a discussion based on logic so do your homework before you start throwing out logical fallacies. The stats showing a decrease in abortions, crime, poverty when Roe v Wade was law are on-line. Minorities and the poor are negatively affected by lack of and lack of access to reproductive health care more than whites. This is not new info.

If you want to convince people—don’t yell at them. I stopped reading after your “stop”…if you are truly intent on swaying people, remain calm. Don’t resort to belittling or yelling at others. Control your emotions. Maybe those on the fence will actually get to your point if you are respectful

 

[telephone89]

There is no point in arguing with people who use "whataboutism". Especially someone spouting off about using logic, the irony is thicc. We can care about more than one issue at a time.

 

[Matata]

If you want to convince people—don’t yell at them.

I asked you to do what you requested we do. I don't want to convince anyone to do anything. I want people to use critical thinking to analyze all facets of the situation and make an informed opinion not one based on hyperbolic emotional rhetoric.

 

[airplay355]

Abortions and miscarriages are inherently different, and do not require some kind of conflation based on what you feel is and isn’t life.

Miscarriages are spontaneous and are the result of a number of factors, sometimes known and sometimes unexplainable. Genetic abnormalities incompatible with life, endometrial factors, maternal health issues like diabetes, etc. Miscarriages get mentioned in some of these discussions because the medications used to ensure all of the products of conception are expelled during a miscarriage, are the same medications which would induce an abortion and terminate a pregnancy. They’re given after the miscarriage has happened to prevent further complications.

Abortion is a purposefully performed medical procedure that can be medically necessary for a number of reasons or as an elective procedure. For some reason, the main description of an abortion seeker (by politicians at least) seems to be a careless women that allows herself to impregnated and doesn’t want to be responsible and handle the consequences. Are there careless couples that do not take proper precautions and end up seeking abortions? Of course. Hate it if you want, decide it’s none of your business, decide it’s fine and just an expression of bodily autonomy.

But please recognize that an outright ban on a abortions will increase suffering for many, far more than it will prevent suffering for. Some examples below…

Ectopic pregnancies are life threatening for the mother and thus also the unborn child.

Some genetic abnormalities cause such intense suffering that it is largely unethical to allow these pregnancies to continue to term. (We know because we’ve asked the people with the conditions, or because it’s fairly obvious a baby born without skin, or with their organs in the outside of their body, will experience a few moments of intense pain before passing.)

Rape. I’ve seen the little 12 year old girl with her parents, crying in the waiting room at the maternal fetal medicine clinic. We have already decided these girls are too young to consent to sex, but at the same it’s ok to force her to have a child? Imagine looking this child in her tear covered face and explaining to her why she has to have a baby.

A woman may want a child but may be pregnant with multiples. What if she has a heart condition and isn’t capable of safely carrying twins, or triplets? This pops up more frequently with IVF but can happen naturally as well.

My point is there are too many permutations and combinations of factors that can contribute to a situation where abortion is truly necessary. The best people to work through these situations are the woman who is pregnant and the medical care team she’s selected. Not politicians, especially those who couldn’t pass an 8th grade biology test, not your neighbor, not some religious fanatics.

I don’t understand why there doesn’t seem to be a compromise. We, as a society, clearly don’t want people ending pregnancies for frivolous reasons like some kind of dystopian eugenic mess. But we can also recognize that there are far too many situations where abortions are necessary so blanket bans will not work.

 

[redwood66]

Nala, the pro lifers use appeals to emotion also -- calling abortion murder of "innocent" babies; holding up photos of aborted fetuses during protests. They are impersonal appeals for the purpose of shocking and attempting to make people feel guilty. A woman sharing her personal story of her abortion is a different animal all together.

For me the abortion debate and the way it is conducted now as opposed to a decade or two ago has caused me to tighten up my views. Safe, legal, and rare were the words of the day. But once I started hearing "shout your abortion" and putting it in a nonchalant light, it makes me gasp just a little. Maybe that's the old lady in me. Extreme pro-life groups have always been shocking. Watching the debate from the middle is difficult because the libertarian in me wants people to have all the autonomy they need within reason.

 

[Matata]

But once I started hearing "shout your abortion" and putting it in a nonchalant light, it makes me gasp just a little.

The whole situation makes me gasp more than a little. I'll spare you the rant.

 

[redwood66]

The whole situation makes me gasp more than a little. I'll spare you the rant.

I don't mind you ranting if it's not a personal attack on me. Discussion is a good thing even when you don't agree.

ETA - your link you provided earlier in this thread that I responded to reminded me how much the tenor of the discussion/debate has changed over the years.

 

[Calliecake]

Serious question. Has the abortion debate changed in the past twenty years?

 

[Begonia]

 

[GeliL]

Miscarriages, child support and right to abortion are 3 different topics. You cannot link them together with logic because it is illogical in itself to do so.

There are lots of emotional appeals on both sides of the argument on whether or not the fetus is considered a human life. But the fundamentals of pro choice is that it is the woman decides what that fetus means to her because it is attached to her body. Think of the fetus as a parasite that lives on the woman's body - keeping that parasite can have health risks, if she wants to keep it and love the parasite, she can. If she doesn't and wants it gone, she can. If she wants the parasite but it died, she is of course upset because it was against her choice. That is the freedom of choice.

It's really pointless to argue what constitutes as a life because that's more of a philosophical, ethical and religious debate that will yield no results. Pro choice vs pro life arguments regarding the definition of a life is science vs religion, and it's impossible to reach a mutual understanding. It's not related to the right to choose.

Miscarriages are more similar to being denied the right to abortion. Miscarriages are the woman making the choice to keep the child but was ultimately unable to, and being denied the right to abort is making the choice to remove the child, but being forced to keep it. Both goes against the woman's wishes. The difference between them is that one is mandated by nature, which cannot be controlled, and the other is mandated by the state, which can be.

 

[Matata]

But the fundamentals of pro choice is that it is the woman decides what that fetus means to her because it is attached to her body. Think of the fetus as a parasite that lives on the woman's body - keeping that parasite can have health risks, if she wants to keep it and love the parasite, she can, if she doesn't and wants it gone, she can. If she wants the parasite but it died, she is of course upset because it was against her choice. That is the freedom of choice.

The SCOTUS is flirting with the idea of giving a fetus personhood at conception with protections under the 14th amendment. If this becomes fact, it will turn everything topsy turvy again.

 

[winnietucker]

For me the abortion debate and the way it is conducted now as opposed to a decade or two ago has caused me to tighten up my views. Safe, legal, and rare were the words of the day. But once I started hearing "shout your abortion" and putting it in a nonchalant light, it makes me gasp just a little. Maybe that's the old lady in me. Extreme pro-life groups have always been shocking. Watching the debate from the middle is difficult because the libertarian in me wants people to have all the autonomy they need within reason.

My impression is most women who began sharing their abortion experiences did so to de-stigmatize it, not to brag or anything.

———————

To rant further, I don’t know if it was mentioned here but IVF creates and destroys lots of embryos. Given there’s no uproar over that and no demands that every embryo be implanted, it’s hard to believe that many in the forced birth crowd REALLY believes all life is sacred. I know the Catholic Church is anti-IVF but I haven’t heard of others speaking out against it the same way. You don’t hear of people protesting IVF clinics like you hear for abortion clinics.

I read some articles where pro-lifers said that now that Roe v Wade was overturned they could focus their efforts on expanding prenatal care of support for families so women don’t feel like they need an abortion. But they could have done both concurrently. Who was stopping them for pushing for more expansive safety nets for families? Why wait til Roe v Wade is overturned to push for benefits that help families?

 

[redwood66]

My impression is most women who began sharing their abortion experiences did so to de-stigmatize it, not to brag or anything.

But it turns people away from the debate as well and they have to realize that. If either side doesn't want to compromise even a little then it will go nowhere. Which is why it has never been codified.

I have no issues with IVF embryos because I am not an extreme pro-lifer.

 

[winnietucker]

But it turns people away from the debate as well and they have to realize that. If either side doesn't want to compromise even a little then it will go nowhere. Which is why it has never been codified.

I have no issues with IVF embryos because I am not an extreme pro-lifer.

Everything after the line wasn’t directed at you/ in response to you, I was just too lazy to make a new comment.

But IMO we should de-stigmatize these things. And how else by talking about them? It’s good for women to know they’re not alone in whatever choice they’ve made.

 

[redwood66]

Everything after the line wasn’t directed at you/ in response to you, I was just too lazy to make a new comment.

But IMO we should de-stigmatize these things. And how else by talking about them? It’s good for women to know they’re not alone in whatever choice they’ve made.

That's ok. I'm not taking any of it as argumentative. IMO abortion should be a last resort with more emphasis on birth control, the consequences of getting pregnant before it happens, and life skills. Destigmatizing it errs on making it not a big deal which imo is the wrong approach.

 

[caf]

Serious question - aside from protesting, donating, being involved in the aunty network (I think that’s what they’re calling it), and voting, what can those of us in blue areas do about this?

@winnietucker Look for information about the Janes and camping. On Facebook and elsewhere. I haven’t heard about the “aunty” network but it may be similar to the Janes.

You can also VOTE. And encourage everyone you know to vote. In every race.

And make sure your blue (camping permitted) state stays that way. Support politicians who share your views. Vet everyone. Nothing you don’t know already.

Make sure your libraries and schools aren’t banning books.

Volunteer. Find orgs that you want to support with your time.

 

[swingtime]

Destigmatizing it errs on making it not a big deal which imo is the wrong approach.

stig·ma·tize
/ˈstiɡməˌtīz/

describe or regard as worthy of disgrace or great disapproval.

I do not want women to be stigmatized for having abortions. I agree with you about birth control.

 

[redwood66]

stig·ma·tize
/ˈstiɡməˌtīz/

describe or regard as worthy of disgrace or great disapproval.

I do not want women to be stigmatized for having abortions. I agree with you about birth control.

True that word is not what should be used and I shouldn't have reused it from her post. But I still don't want abortion to be turned into a no big deal nonchalant medical procedure. It's not the same as having a tooth or mole removed. And it's not a parasite.

 

[Calliecake]

stig·ma·tize
/ˈstiɡməˌtīz/

describe or regard as worthy of disgrace or great disapproval.

I do not want women to be stigmatized for having abortions. I agree with you about birth control.

Abortions rates have been on a downward trend for years.

Please keep in mind the Supreme Court announced last week they may be reconsidering birth control. If they take away access to Plan B and/or IUD’s of course there are going to be more unwanted pregnancies. What a perfect way to reduce the need for abortion (eye roll).

 

[GeliL]

True that word is not what should be used and I shouldn't have reused it from her post. But I still don't want abortion to be turned into a no big deal nonchalant medical procedure. It's not the same as having a tooth or mole removed. And it's not a parasite.

Just to clarify I wasn't saying the scale of medical procedure of an abortion is like that of parasite removal. I was just saying that everyone is free to perceive what they have in their body as what they want it to be - be it a baby, a fetus, an innocent spirit that is waiting to emerge into the world, or just some soulless conglomerate of cells - and do what they want with their own bodies.

Maybe I should have used a more neutral word other than parasite, but basically something that is dependent on a women's body.

I agree with you said about birth control and life skills. That last resort should not be taken away from them though should they need it, because giving birth to a child is also a big deal on a women's mental, physical, and financial health. Once you get pregnant, whatever decision you make will just be a huge deal either way.

 

[missy]

@missy - re-post your post about owning one's own body. Re-port it a thousand times on every relevant website and thread. it's the heart of the matter. It's the whole point.

Happy to oblige @mrs-b




And just for Nala (and anyone else who doesn't get this critical point)

 

[missy]

You know what it needs its own post.

 

[missy]

And one more time for good measure.

 

[missy]

Dear @Matata @kenny @ItsMainelyYou and everyone else who gets it...at this point I am disappointed to say some here are acting as if they are trolls. Making specious arguments and fallacious analogies. It really isn't our job to help others think critically. I mean sure it's generous of us to spend time trying to help others understand basic concepts but perhaps they are not able to. Or perhaps they are being deliberately obtuse. I won't accuse anyone of anything but just want to say...





And just one more try.

 

[HGar]

I’m pretty much just an observer here however @missy I feel that it is quite condescending to state that people who have differing opinions to you are trolling.

By all means agree to disagree, state your reasoning if you want but don’t demean others for not agreeing. It’s beneath us all as humans to think that only our opinion is the true and correct one.

The vitriol starting to emerge in both this thread and the religion thread is even more upsetting then the sometimes occurring pack mentality when someone posts a negative opinion on a jeweller etc.

 

[missy]

I’m pretty much just an observer here however @missy I feel that it is quite condescending to state that people who have differing opinions to you are trolling.

By all means agree to disagree, state your reasoning if you want but don’t demean others for not agreeing. It’s beneath us all as humans to think that only our opinion is the true and correct one.

The vitriol starting to emerge in both this thread and the religion thread is even more upsetting then the sometimes occurring pack mentality when someone posts a negative opinion on a jeweller etc.

Kyton perhaps re read some of my responses to Nala. She basically ignores most of my comments responding to her posts and repeats herself. That is why I posted what I posted. Thank you for your opinion but I have to say I don't think you understand either. That is my opinion. And I am happy to agree to disagree. I give my time here generously sharing with others. I don't just complain.

When someone tells someone else they should carry a pregnancy they don't want that's when I start SMH. And yes. To me it is that simple. PRO choice. My decision. Every woman can decide for herself. Don't you dare tell me what I can do with my body regarding reproductive rights. Because you will not like my reply. You don't like vitriol? How would you like it if someone forced you, yes forced you to carry an unwanted pregnancy? How would you like that?

 

[Snowdrop13]

Miscarriages also tend to happen before 12 weeks. Anyone want to chime in? Can we tell those who miscarried to get over it?

Do they? Not true @nala, they can occur later. And depending when it happens, and for what reason, often the fetus did have a heart beat and did die.

 

[missy]

And the ripple effect continues...

"

Yet another consequence of Roe​

Boston IVF, a major network of fertility clinics that reach far beyond Boston, has been getting quite a few calls lately from patients in states where abortion is either already banned or soon will be. Patients are worried that abortion bans in the aftermath of the Supreme Court’s recent decision on Roe v. Wade could also affect in-vitro fertilization. That’s because IVF usually involves generating extra embryos that are never used. So if a future state law says life begins at conception, what does that mean for the hundreds of thousands of embryos sitting in fertility clinic deep freezers? And what does it mean for would-be parents who want to be able to discard embryos with genetic diseases or abnormal chromosomes? It’s not quite dire straits yet. Legal experts are clear that there’s no immediate threat to IVF. (Read the full story here.) A couple supporting abortion rights in Washington, D.C. Photographer: Eric Lee/Bloomberg “This ruling does not limit our ability to provide high-quality IVF services as we always have,” TJ Farnsworth, the CEO of Inception, the biggest fertility provider in North America, told me. And, he says, Inception’s legal analysts see “no indication that any state is contemplating limiting IVF care specifically.” Still, concerns remain. The battle over abortion in the US has now moved from the Supreme Court to the states — and it is unclear exactly what form future bans in some states may take. The main concern is not that state lawmakers will target IVF, says I. Glenn Cohen, a Harvard Law School professor who specializes in bioethics, but that “the language they adopt to prohibit abortion may inadvertently create questions about the status of embryos.” Sean Tipton, the spokesperson for the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, is not mincing words these angst-ridden days. Anti-abortion activists “are not in the mood to compromise,” he says. “They are looking to slam that door shut as hard as they can and if infertility patients get their fingers stuck in that door, that’s perfectly OK with them.” In the meantime, according to Resolve: The National Infertility Association, IVF treatments continue as usual. Their defenders are watching attentively what happens in state legislatures. — Carey Goldberg"