- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
- Messages
- 3,491
Is pregnancy contagious?
Roe v. Wade.
- Thread starter yssie
- Start date
Is pregnancy contagious?
fel
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2011
- Messages
- 498
But it is. Otherwise I can say the restriction to wear bowling shoes at the bowling alley is an intrusion on bodily autonomy. It actually is exactly about the level of the intrusion. We all put up with minor restrictions on our liberty -- e.g. decency laws saying we can't walk down the street naked, restrictions saying in the hospital NICU infant ward we have to wear a mask, restrictions saying we have to wear hearing protection to meet OSHA standards on a loud factory floor. That is not an intrusion on bodily autonomy. Carrying a fetus for 9 months is.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2012
- Messages
- 7,329
Except for OSHA, none of those things are mandated by the federal government though. I am all for hospitals requiring masks in their wards, cities/states deciding what laws to pass, etc. I am against federal mandates that affect the entire population.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,043
No, not the masks, but being forced to take an experimental jab to keep your job and if you get injured and lose your job because of the injury or your legs or your health forever to be then shunned by every medical professional and be told it's all in your head.
And if they do recognize it as being a vaccine injury, no one can ever bring your health back anyway...
People have already been destroyed by this. I was on the brink losing everything. No one cared, all they did was to mock us and call us anti vaxxers.
I just got lucky they pulled the mandates off because of political shenanigans.
THAT WAS ABOUT BODILY AUTONOMY!
You do not get to call yourself pro choice and be pro vax mandate, it doesn't work that way.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,043
Did the vax stop anything? I got the virus from the vaxxed.
@Gloria27- From what you've said before, you don't even live in the USA and this thread is about Roe vs. Wade being overturned in the USA. It is NOT about your favorite topic, freedumb re the Covid pandemic. Please stop trolling and derailing this thread. It's important to many of us who do live here. Thanks in advance!
Last edited:
fel
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2011
- Messages
- 498
@Gloria27 The federal rule about vaccines is a " vaccine or test" mandate. There were religious and MEDICAL exemptions allowed. And it was only for federal jobs. You didn't have the keep your job. Or if you had a medical or religious exemption, you could use it. Or you can just take a test every week. Gosh, that sounds like a lot of options.
We have had vaccine mandates for school children longer than I have been alive. Funny that the objections only came up now. There have always been some low level of possible side effects to vaccines. Calling a vaccine 'experimental" when it has literally been used hundreds of millions is a bit rich.
There have ALWAYS been autonomy restrictions on certain jobs. For example, for some jobs (i.e. in the military) you would have to be healthy weight or pass a physical. Is it in an insult to your "bodily autonomy" to say you need to change your physique to have that job? No, because you can choose to not have that job.
The forced birthing mandate by our SC theocracy is not tied to certain jobs. They are for everyone. And there is no religious exemption. My religion dictates that abortions are allowed and even necessary for the health or well-being of the mother. Can I get a religious exemption to the forced-birthing mandate?
OK: hitting ignore now on this person.
We have had vaccine mandates for school children longer than I have been alive. Funny that the objections only came up now. There have always been some low level of possible side effects to vaccines. Calling a vaccine 'experimental" when it has literally been used hundreds of millions is a bit rich.
There have ALWAYS been autonomy restrictions on certain jobs. For example, for some jobs (i.e. in the military) you would have to be healthy weight or pass a physical. Is it in an insult to your "bodily autonomy" to say you need to change your physique to have that job? No, because you can choose to not have that job.
The forced birthing mandate by our SC theocracy is not tied to certain jobs. They are for everyone. And there is no religious exemption. My religion dictates that abortions are allowed and even necessary for the health or well-being of the mother. Can I get a religious exemption to the forced-birthing mandate?
OK: hitting ignore now on this person.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,043
You are right, I don't live in the USA (thank goodness) I just couldn't get passed the hypocrisy on display here.
I'm not trying to troll but OK I'll take your attempt at a conversation and stop postin here.
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2012
- Messages
- 12,331
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2012
- Messages
- 12,331
Link about Texas: abortions may resume
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/GOZQGFKJX5IEDA3IGGAKFIHWAQ.jpg)
www.reuters.com
Abortions can resume in Texas after judge blocks pre-Roe v. Wade ban
The order allows clinics to resume services in a state where abortion was already severely restricted to only up to six weeks of pregnancy under a Texas law that took effect in September that the U.S. Supreme Court declined to block.
www.reuters.com
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
- Messages
- 33,897
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Exactly.
The cases are entirely different. Allowing a woman to choose to carry her pregnancy or terminate it cannot be compared to vaccine mandates.
It is a faulty comparison and intellectually dishonest. It is insulting to the people who have fought and who continue to fight for reproductive justice.
People may choose to not carry a pregnancy to term because of their social, economic, or health circumstances. Some may have experienced sexual assault, or have learned the fetus has a life-threatening health issue. They might be experiencing domestic violence.
Limiting access to abortions kills women, either from dangerous pregnancies or botched attempts to end the pregnancy.
The freedom to get an abortion where it is safe and legal can be life-saving. The freedom not to get vaccinated means you can’t access certain non-essential services because you’re much more likely to get other people sick. Those two premises are entirely different.
Mandated COVID vaccines are part of a long tradition of vaccinations being required to participate in society. If you don’t like it that’s up to you. No one is literally forcing you to get the vaccine. If it means you might lose your job, not be able to eat out etc. that’s your choice. It’s to protect others. I always say do as you please as long as you don’t affect me and others negatively.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 7,278
As someone who has never considered an abortion even though I have always had the right to have one, I don’t know how to feel about the responses here. I’m not devastated like many of you. I’m not celebrating either. I’ve never felt it was my business who got an abortion or who didn’t. It’s not in my place to judge. I would hope that my loved ones were never in need of one or in want of one—bc that is what it comes down to. If you stand for abortion you have no business of dictating who is entitled to one or why. If you stand for abortion you believe that the act is harmless and like any other medical procedure. No judgement. Just acceptance.
I don’t think that having difficulty understanding what abortion is, however, makes a person the enemy. Like all the anecdotes shared here, I can share some. Of the friend that had 2 abortions bc they didn’t want more kids. They didn’t use birth control. They didn’t care to get the morning after pill. They waited on their abortions until the married man they wanted to father their child told them nope. Twice. Not gonna leave my wife and I have zero money to give your for child support bc i have 4 other kids. Yes. True story. Hard to empathize, right? But I didn’t judge her. I supported her. And 20 years later, she still struggles with the guilt. Would she be better off with her 2 children?
Make me understand why elective abortion equals women’s rights? We have so many other ways to prevent pregnancy these days. Why are so many posters acting like pregnancy is an action that just happens? Almost equating it to a rite of passage ? Is every abortion the result of rape? Incest? Preventing the birth of Unhealthy children? Or mistakes? And if so, what other laws in society forgive people for mistakes? Heat of the moment actions that lead to mistakes—are there laws for that?
I’m not trolling. I’m genuinely confused. I don’t understand the indignation. And I don’t want to lose my feminist card—but for a country that encourages personal responsibility—where does that leave abortion? And don’t get me started on child support. If you are a true feminist and having a child is only your choice—your body your choice—why do you go after child support? Seems like a man has to go into sex always considering procreating whereas the woman doesn’t and yet many of you here are arguing that this law is about men controlling women. Men are actually setting themselves up to lose control if abortions are banned bc they will be on the hook for child support.
Finally for all of you who believe that abortion is a medical procedure—not the end of a life—do you view miscarriages the same way? Do you tell those women who cry about a miscarriage to get over it bc you know, obviously nothing died. The thing inside was just not independently sustainable so move on?
Counter me. With dialogue. Not insults. I promise that I’m not out to win an argument. I want to see what I’m missing. Maybe there are many others on the fence who don’t dare post—whom you might convince with logic rather than insults.
I don’t think that having difficulty understanding what abortion is, however, makes a person the enemy. Like all the anecdotes shared here, I can share some. Of the friend that had 2 abortions bc they didn’t want more kids. They didn’t use birth control. They didn’t care to get the morning after pill. They waited on their abortions until the married man they wanted to father their child told them nope. Twice. Not gonna leave my wife and I have zero money to give your for child support bc i have 4 other kids. Yes. True story. Hard to empathize, right? But I didn’t judge her. I supported her. And 20 years later, she still struggles with the guilt. Would she be better off with her 2 children?
Make me understand why elective abortion equals women’s rights? We have so many other ways to prevent pregnancy these days. Why are so many posters acting like pregnancy is an action that just happens? Almost equating it to a rite of passage ? Is every abortion the result of rape? Incest? Preventing the birth of Unhealthy children? Or mistakes? And if so, what other laws in society forgive people for mistakes? Heat of the moment actions that lead to mistakes—are there laws for that?
I’m not trolling. I’m genuinely confused. I don’t understand the indignation. And I don’t want to lose my feminist card—but for a country that encourages personal responsibility—where does that leave abortion? And don’t get me started on child support. If you are a true feminist and having a child is only your choice—your body your choice—why do you go after child support? Seems like a man has to go into sex always considering procreating whereas the woman doesn’t and yet many of you here are arguing that this law is about men controlling women. Men are actually setting themselves up to lose control if abortions are banned bc they will be on the hook for child support.
Finally for all of you who believe that abortion is a medical procedure—not the end of a life—do you view miscarriages the same way? Do you tell those women who cry about a miscarriage to get over it bc you know, obviously nothing died. The thing inside was just not independently sustainable so move on?
Counter me. With dialogue. Not insults. I promise that I’m not out to win an argument. I want to see what I’m missing. Maybe there are many others on the fence who don’t dare post—whom you might convince with logic rather than insults.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
The point is that it doesn’t matter why someone wants an abortion. More so that it’s their choice. Or should be. Could you imagine being forced to carry a pregnancy to full term if you desperately wanted to end the pregnancy? Any idea what that might feel like? No. Me neither. This choice is a highly personal choice and should be up to the individual. You say you’re not judging but to my ears it’s sounds a bit judgmental.
“Why are so many posters acting like pregnancy is an action that just happens?”
Shi* happens. Do some people abuse things. Yeah of course. There’s always exceptions to the rules. But I am guessing the great overwhelming majority don’t use abortion as birth control.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 7,278
Your arguments that “shit happens…people abuse things…exceptions” apply these to gun violence, etc. Do they seem like strong arguments now?
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Also remember they’re whittling away at our rights one by one. It’s not ok Nala.
No. I am pro gun control. Not a good analogy. IMO
I am pro gun control. Again not a good comparison. Pro choice means the right to choose what one does with one’s body. No one has the right to shoot automatic weapons unless you’re military imo. We need more gun control in America. The right to bear arms is very different than the right to have control over one’s own body.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 7,278
But see—is abortion a right? Were we all born with the right to abort? And if so, where does that leave men who want to opt out of fatherhood?
Not an analogy. It’s an evaluation of your argument.
fel
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2011
- Messages
- 498
I don't think anyone should lose their feminist card for asking a genuine question as you have. I think some of us come from a place of privilege (this being a jewelry forum, after all!) So we might not have had the experiences of many other women.
I've been in the trenches a bit more, in my work and in my early life, so am glad to answer.
1) Birth control often fails. I know countless women who have become pregnant while using what is considered reliable birth control: the pill, the patch, IUD, and diaphragm. Indeed, I am a product of one such failure (and Mom chose to keep me, pushing her into poverty for a while.) I have known women who chose to abort in such cases, and those who chose to keep the child. In all the cases where they have kept the child but have been financially insecure, the pregnancy has pushed the mother into either poverty or into going into a bad marriage to try to lift themselves out of poverty. So that is one thing.
2). As mentioned a while ago on this thread, there is a lot more rape than the statistics show, and even more than that is coercion that might not quite be considered rape (esp by old standards), but where the women did not full consent, or where birth control was requested but not allowed and man went through with it anyway. Many of those cases, the woman is not really willing to identify it as rape, even in her own mind. But at the same time, when she has this sort of coercive relationship, the last thing she may want to do is have a child with someone who is tending towards control/abuse. And then as discussed above their are the horrible abuse stories, so much more common than we think, where fertility is used a sword against women to intimidate them into compliance.
3) Poverty: for some people I know and work with,they just cannot afford a child. Perhaps they couldn't afford birth control, or were too stressed/uneducated/suffering mental health issues/too disorganized to use it routinely. Some women are on psychiatric meds that make it harder for them to plan. Some women truly are not equipped to go safely through a pregnancy with adequate medical care, and not equipped to give a good home to a child. At the same time, just because they have all these issues doesn't mean they have the resilience and steeliness of purpose to carry a healthy child to term and give him/her up for adoption. A lot of these women I see in my work with disabled children, and I have also had such women as relatives. Very often, this story does not end well. The children frequently have disabilities themselves, they require very organized care to coordinate services and doctors appts, and the mother just can't cope. Then those children suffer the same issues at the Moms and are also likely to have unwanted pregnancies. There is just no easy way out of this loop.
As for me, I never had an abortion, but just the fact that it was an available option gave me the confidence to plan my life and sometimes take risks. As mentioned above I have experienced several attempted assaults and fought them off. I am certain I would have lived a different life if I thought one misstep (meaning walking into the wrong place at the wrong time) could lead to raising an unwanted child.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Yes. It’s a right to decide to carry the pregnancy or end it. It’s our bodies. It’s one of the most fundamental rights. To do as we see fit. How many more unwanted unloved abused etc children do we want to bring into this world? How is it ok to force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy for nine months at risk to her physical and emotional well being depending on the circumstances? It’s not about abortion as much as it is about the choice to decide for ourselves.
You are very lucky Nala never to have been forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy for nine months. Or to attempt a back alley abortion. You’re too young to know what women went through before you. We don’t want to go back to those times. The underserved, those in the lower socioeconomic class, etc. will be the ones who suffer.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 7,278
Where does that leave men? How can we have it both ways? Keep it and child support. Abort it even if they want it?
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 7,278
Yes. It’s a right to decide to carry the pregnancy or end it. It’s our bodies. It’s one of the most fundamental rights. To do as we see fit. How many more unwanted unloved abused etc children do we want to bring into this world? How is it ok to force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy for nine months at risk to her physical and emotional well being depending on the circumstances? It’s not about abortion as much as it is about the choice to decide for ourselves.
You are very lucky Nala never to have been forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy for nine months. Or to attempt a back alley abortion. You’re too young to know what women went through before you. We don’t want to go back to those times. The underserved, those in the lower socioeconomic class, etc. will be the ones who suffer.
I have been married to two men who were given up for adoption rather than being aborted. They are remarkable men. I believe in the resilient spirit. All this to say that the “unwanted and abused” argument or the poverty one doesn’t sway me. I’m a teacher of the poor and abused. I was born into poverty. And I don’t once think that my husbands, myself or my students were Better off never being born. I am in awe of our resilience.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Look at what happens in countries where abortion is illegal. Then come back and tell me your thoughts.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Sorry I don’t understand your question. I personally would make this decision with my husband but not every woman is as fortunate to have a loving supportive partner to go with through life. I would never try to guess what someone else is going through. It’s not my decision or judgement to make.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 7,278
Yes. It’s a right to decide to carry the pregnancy or end it. It’s our bodies. It’s one of the most fundamental rights. To do as we see fit. How many more unwanted unloved abused etc children do we want to bring into this world? How is it ok to force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy for nine months at risk to her physical and emotional well being depending on the circumstances? It’s not about abortion as much as it is about the choice to decide for ourselves.
You are very lucky Nala never to have been forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy for nine months. Or to attempt a back alley abortion. You’re too young to know what women went through before you. We don’t want to go back to those times. The underserved, those in the lower socioeconomic class, etc. will be the ones who suffer.
Missy. My daughter was an accident. I was miserable for 9 months. I didn’t fall love with her the minute I got pregnant. I had been raised to not consider abortion as an exit—I’ll admit. Something about seeing things through. Yes. I believe in God and I’m not ashamed to say it but no-I’m not a die hard Catholic. 23 years later and she is the love of my life. For every abortion that has “helped” women— and yet many have suffered the lingering effects, etc—how many were deprived of a lifelong love?
The point is—personal anecdotes don’t get us anywhere.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Again that was your choice Nala. And glad you were able to make it. I want to choose for myself what I do and I support that choice for all women. Pro choice. I never said I’m pro abortion. I am pro CHOICE. And if someone’s choice is to terminate the pregnancy for whatever personal reasons I support their decision. As I support yours.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 7,278
That’s my point. Personal anecdotes don’t get us far. We need to define abortion. What is it? Did we end a life or a non-life? If so, do we tell all women who have miscarriages to get over it?
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Nala another important point to consider.
worldpopulationreview.com
“According to data from the World Health Organization (WHO), the legality of abortion across the world actually has little to no effect on abortion rates throughout the world. Legal or not, abortions can, will, and do take place. The legality of abortion, however, does affect how safe those abortions are.l
Countries Where Abortion Is Illegal 2024
“According to data from the World Health Organization (WHO), the legality of abortion across the world actually has little to no effect on abortion rates throughout the world. Legal or not, abortions can, will, and do take place. The legality of abortion, however, does affect how safe those abortions are.l
swingtime
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- May 1, 2021
- Messages
- 150
@nala, thank you for sharing your honest thoughts. Dialogue is important.
I do think there is still so much judgment hurled at women for enjoying sex. How dare we have sex for something other than procreation. We are sexual beings. And sometimes it is difficult for women - and men - to take that extra step. They are human.
Some women get pregnant because they are raised in a religion that tells them it is worse in God's eyes to use birth control before having sex outside of marriage (thereby clearly planning to have sex) than to have sex without birth control. This writer wrote about this in a very poignant way:
www.nytimes.com
Just read your post about your daughter. Do you think there's a feeling of, Well, I had to go through this, so other women should have to, too? (Not trying to be harsh - in my circle we're very direct.) I am so happy your daughter is the light of your life. My kids are, too. But other women's situations can be different.
I do think there is still so much judgment hurled at women for enjoying sex. How dare we have sex for something other than procreation. We are sexual beings. And sometimes it is difficult for women - and men - to take that extra step. They are human.
Some women get pregnant because they are raised in a religion that tells them it is worse in God's eyes to use birth control before having sex outside of marriage (thereby clearly planning to have sex) than to have sex without birth control. This writer wrote about this in a very poignant way:
The Abortion I Didn’t Have (Published 2021)
I never thought about ending my pregnancy. Instead, at 19, I erased the future I had imagined for myself.
Just read your post about your daughter. Do you think there's a feeling of, Well, I had to go through this, so other women should have to, too? (Not trying to be harsh - in my circle we're very direct.) I am so happy your daughter is the light of your life. My kids are, too. But other women's situations can be different.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 55,216
Do you understand that in many states it doesn’t matter. It’s completely up to the states. To ban it or put limits on it. Or no limits. The majority of women who get abortions do so before 12 weeks.
What do miscarriages have to do with this? That’s a completely different story Nala. The grieving never ends.
I am surprised you could be so insensitive. To compare abortion to miscarriage. Think about that please. I know you are not that person. Different topic completely. Heartbreaking in all ways. Not by choice.I am sure women who choose to end their pregnancy grieve. It’s all sad. But to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term and perhaps ruin that woman’s life. No. And it’s not comparable to miscarriage.
But why do we need to compare people’s pain?
300x240.png)