Roe v. Wade.

[nala]

@nala, thank you for sharing your honest thoughts. Dialogue is important.

I do think there is still so much judgment hurled at women for enjoying sex. How dare we have sex for something other than procreation. We are sexual beings. And sometimes it is difficult for women - and men - to take that extra step. They are human.

Some women get pregnant because they are raised in a religion that tells them it is worse in God's eyes to use birth control before having sex outside of marriage (thereby clearly planning to have sex) than to have sex without birth control. This writer wrote about this in a very poignant way:

The Abortion I Didn’t Have (Published 2021)

I never thought about ending my pregnancy. Instead, at 19, I erased the future I had imagined for myself.

www.nytimes.com

Just read your post about your daughter. Do you think there's a feeling of, Well, I had to go through this, so other women should have to, too? (Not trying to be harsh - in my circle we're very direct.) I am so happy your daughter is the light of your life. My kids are, too. But other women's situations can be different.

I think the feeling is not that I had to go thru with it so you are stuck, lol, but more—just to share the other side. Like. No pregnancy is not all rainbows but I’ve learned that everything worth having takes effort.

 

[nala]

Do you understand that in many states it doesn’t matter. It’s completely up to the states. To ban it or put limits on it. Or no limits. The majority of women who get abortions do so before 12 weeks.

What do miscarriages have to do with this? That’s a completely different story Nala. The grieving never ends. I am surprised you could be so insensitive. To compare abortion to miscarriage. Think about that please. I know you are not that person. Different topic completely. Heartbreaking in all ways. Not by choice.

Miscarriages also tend to happen before 12 weeks. Anyone want to chime in? Can we tell those who miscarried to get over it?

 

[missy]

I feel we need to put a trigger warning on this thread now. I’m going to report it and ask for that to be done.

 

[nala]

I feel we need to put a trigger warning on this thread now. I’m going to report it and ask for that to be done.

Something I said?

 

[missy]

Something I said?

Just for anyone here who experienced a miscarriage. Very traumatic. We need a warning

 

[nala]

Just for anyone here who experienced a miscarriage. Very traumatic. We need a warning

Ok. But why? How does a miscarriage differ from an abortion if the medical procedure is not putting an end to a life? For that matter, an abortion is also very traumatic. Why no trigger warning before?

 

[missy]

Miscarriages also tend to happen before 12 weeks. Anyone want to chime in? Can we tell those who miscarried to get over it?

I already answered your question. Anyone with any compassion would never ever say “get over it”. Not if you ever lost someone you loved Nala.

They are both traumatic events. Abortion and miscarriage. And I would never tell anyone to get over either. Would you?

 

[missy]

I think the feeling is not that I had to go thru with it so you are stuck, lol, but more—just to share the other side. Like. No pregnancy is not all rainbows but I’ve learned that everything worth having takes effort.

Hypothetical question for @nala What would happen if your daughter got raped Nala and became pregnant and lived in a state that makes any abortion for any reason illegal? How would you feel ?

 

[Matata]

But see—is abortion a right? Were we all born with the right to abort?

Is reproduction a right? Are we born with the right to procreate?

 

[missy]

I think the feeling is not that I had to go thru with it so you are stuck, lol, but more—just to share the other side. Like. No pregnancy is not all rainbows but I’ve learned that everything worth having takes effort.

That’s you Nala. Why are you putting your personal experiences and beliefs on those who may not share the same experiences? Pro choice. You do you. And let others be free to do what is best for them.

 

[nala]

That’s you Nala. Why are you putting your personal experiences and beliefs on those who may not share the same experiences? Pro choice. You do you. And let others be free to do what is best for them.

That’s what is happening in this thread. People are swaying each other with personal anecdotes. I am the first to say they don’t work and used mine to make the point. I want logic.

 

[swingtime]

But see—is abortion a right? Were we all born with the right to abort? And if so, where does that leave men who want to opt out of fatherhood?
Not an analogy. It’s an evaluation of your argument.

As Missy said, abortion is a fact. Women will have abortions, whether abortion healthcare is legal or not. Do you want women to be safe?

 

[nala]

I already answered your question. Anyone with any compassion would never ever say “get over it”. Not if you ever lost someone you loved Nala.

They are both traumatic events. Abortion and miscarriage. And I would never tell anyone to get over either. Would you?

If I view abortion as the end of a life, I obviously view miscarriage the same way. If I view abortion as the end of of a non viable embryo, I view miscarriage the same way.

 

[missy]

That’s what is happening in this thread. People are swaying each other with personal anecdotes. I am the first to say they don’t work and used mine to make the point. I want logic.

How much more logic can I share? Pro choice. I am not making the decision for anyone else but me and you make your decisions and let other women make theirs. It’s those who are self righteous, self absorbed, and oblivious to others pain and suffering, who say let us tell you what’s right for you. Umm thanks no thanks.

 

[missy]

If I view abortion as the end of a life, I obviously view miscarriage the same way. If I view abortion as the end of of a non viable embryo, I view miscarriage the same way.

And your point is?

 

[nala]

And your point is?

Answered your question

 

[winnietucker]

As someone who has never considered an abortion even though I have always had the right to have one, I don’t know how to feel about the responses here. I’m not devastated like many of you. I’m not celebrating either. I’ve never felt it was my business who got an abortion or who didn’t. It’s not in my place to judge. I would hope that my loved ones were never in need of one or in want of one—bc that is what it comes down to. If you stand for abortion you have no business of dictating who is entitled to one or why. If you stand for abortion you believe that the act is harmless and like any other medical procedure. No judgement. Just acceptance.
I don’t think that having difficulty understanding what abortion is, however, makes a person the enemy. Like all the anecdotes shared here, I can share some. Of the friend that had 2 abortions bc they didn’t want more kids. They didn’t use birth control. They didn’t care to get the morning after pill. They waited on their abortions until the married man they wanted to father their child told them nope. Twice. Not gonna leave my wife and I have zero money to give your for child support bc i have 4 other kids. Yes. True story. Hard to empathize, right? But I didn’t judge her. I supported her. And 20 years later, she still struggles with the guilt. Would she be better off with her 2 children?

Make me understand why elective abortion equals women’s rights? We have so many other ways to prevent pregnancy these days. Why are so many posters acting like pregnancy is an action that just happens? Almost equating it to a rite of passage ? Is every abortion the result of rape? Incest? Preventing the birth of Unhealthy children? Or mistakes? And if so, what other laws in society forgive people for mistakes? Heat of the moment actions that lead to mistakes—are there laws for that?
I’m not trolling. I’m genuinely confused. I don’t understand the indignation. And I don’t want to lose my feminist card but for a country that encourages personal responsibility—where does that leave abortion? And don’t get me started on child support. If you are a true feminist and having a child is only your choice—your body your choice—why do you go after child support? Seems like a man has to go into sex always considering procreating whereas the woman doesn’t and yet many of you here are arguing that this law is about men controlling women. Men are actually setting themselves up to lose control if abortions are banned bc they will be on the hook for child support.
Finally for all of you who believe that abortion is a medical procedure—not the end of a life—do you view miscarriages the same way? Do you tell those women who cry about a miscarriage to get over it bc you know, obviously nothing died. The thing inside was just not independently sustainable so move on?
Counter me. With dialogue. Not insults. I promise that I’m not out to win an argument. I want to see what I’m missing. Maybe there are many others on the fence who don’t dare post whom you might convince with logic rather than insults.

Nala, you’re forgetting (or not recognizing) that pregnancy takes two to tango but pregnancy is a burden women bear. There are physical, financial, and mental repercussions (e.g. feeling so ill you can’t work, insomnia, fatigue, depression, pain, the constant prenatal appointments that may or may not be during work hours, needing to buy new clothing, etc). A woman can’t become pregnant on her own but has to suffer the consequences on her own. Until the baby is born, the father can refuse to help the mother.

You mention personal responsibility on the mother but what about the father? Again, baby wasn’t conceived on its own and if it’s known that babies are ALWAYS possible if a man and woman have sex unprotected then where’s the pressure for personal responsibility on the man? As an aside, this country is so uptight about sex that I doubt enough people have good working knowledge of human anatomy, birth control, etc. In my own personal example: my husband was telling me about one of our classmates who had gotten another classmate pregnant in high school. Apparently the guy thought if he pushed hard enough he could shoot his sperm past the uterus and into the stomach. And of course this doesn’t discuss women who are pregnant against their will. Rape happens. Men get women pregnant intentionally as a means to force that woman to stay with him. Women do it too and it’s wrong then too, but that’s a different discussion.

The lack of choice is an issue because that means you have no bodily autonomy the moment you’re pregnant. Once you’re pregnant you’re a walking incubator. Now where do we draw the line? There are tons of medications and so many food that you’re not supposed to consume while pregnant. Like coffee. The recommendation is no more than two small cups of coffee per day because higher amounts may be linked to miscarriage. If a woman drinks a ton of coffee and miscarries, will she be investigated? Same with consuming sushi and deli meat or cleaning a litter box. If those things lead an illness that harms the baby, is it an intentional act? Do women need to now give up anything not cleared as safe for baby while pregnant?

I personally had to stop taking the meds that helped me with my headaches when I was pregnant so I would just have headaches for days and it was miserable. I did not like being pregnant. Toward the end I could barely do my job because I was exhausted and in pain. I’m super lucky that my job is very accommodating and they let me move to a team that does easier work. Had I worked at my husband’s job they’d probably just try to fire me. Pregnancy discrimination is illegal but still happens.

And then there’s the issue of the financial responsibility of childbirth/ recovery. As I previously mentioned, I got billed $75k for my kid and I. I didn’t even get an epidural and I didn’t have a c-section. Those are both pretty common though. Can you imagine what it would have cost if I did? And then I ended up hemorrhaging two weeks PP and had to have surgery. Luckily I get 18 weeks of paid maternity leave because recovery took me a while. I couldn’t even sit down normally for the first 10 days. It took about 10 weeks for me to feel okay. But maternity leave/ time off to recover isn’t standard in this country and we have a healthcare crisis where so many can’t afford to pay their medical bills. Many women need to go back just to work shortly after giving birth.

In a country with no paid parental leave, no universal government paid healthcare, no subsidized daycare, and overall no real support for parents, how is forcing someone to become a parent not cruel? Adoption isn’t a solution either. That’s the solution to parenthood, not pregnancy so it only addresses part of the problem. It’s cruel and traumatic to both mother and child to force a mother to carry a baby for 40-ish weeks and expect her to be able to hand the baby over to someone else and move on with her life like nothing happened. And with all the children in foster care, do we even think that’s a good idea? We hear constantly that foster care is a failed program that needs overhauling. Private open adoptions are a thing but even they come under fire for being coercive to birth mothers so they can get babies to adopt out. Private adoption is big $ too, meaning any one who wants to go that route better know someone personally or pony up the cash.

Women need to be able to choose whether or not they carry a pregnancy to term. Politicians are not qualified to decide. We don’t let politicians determine if a man can get a vasectomy or really most other medical procedures. Plus do we really want people that think a woman’s body can somehow shut down if she’s raped to stop a pregnancy or that you can take an ectopic pregnancy and move it to the uterus making our healthcare decisions?

 

[Matata]

Where does that leave men? How can we have it both ways? Keep it and child support. Abort it even if they want it?

Imo, IF abortion is a legal option for a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy and she chooses to keep the child, the impregnator should not be required to financially support the woman or the child. Her body, her choice. The exception should be in the case of rape/incest at which point the impregnator should be responsible for supporting mother/baby.

Imo, IF abortion is a legal option for a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy and she chooses to terminate, her choice trumps that of the wishes of the impregnator. Her body, her choice.

 

[nala]

How much more logic can I share? Pro choice. I am not making the decision for anyone else but me and you make your decisions and let other women make theirs. It’s those who are self righteous, self absorbed, and oblivious to others pain and suffering, who say let us tell you what’s right for you. Umm thanks no thanks.

I agree with you. I never said I didn’t agree with pro choice. I said I was going to voice my confusion. Bc I just don’t understand all the contradictions that arise out of this topic.

 

[nala]

Imo, IF abortion is a legal option for a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy and she chooses to keep the child, the impregnator should not be required to financially support the woman or the child. Her body, her choice. The exception should be in the case of rape/incest at which point the impregnator should be responsible for supporting mother/baby.

Imo, IF abortion is a legal option for a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy and she chooses to terminate, her choice trumps that of the wishes of the impregnator. Her body, her choice.

Wow! We agree! And yet, most states will hold men accountable. It would be fun to take this one to the Supreme Court. Maybe that would put an end to banning abortions.

 

[missy]

Imo, IF abortion is a legal option for a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy and she chooses to keep the child, the impregnator should not be required to financially support the woman or the child. Her body, her choice. The exception should be in the case of rape/incest at which point the impregnator should be responsible for supporting mother/baby.

Imo, IF abortion is a legal option for a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy and she chooses to terminate, her choice trumps that of the wishes of the impregnator. Her body, her choice.

And I agree too.

 

[winnietucker]

Wow! We agree! And yet, most states will hold men accountable. It would be fun to take this one to the Supreme Court. Maybe that would put an end to banning abortions.

I agree with this as well but I thought I read it was because the states want the man to be forced to contribute so they have to provide less.

 

[swingtime]

I think the feeling is not that I had to go thru with it so you are stuck, lol, but more—just to share the other side. Like. No pregnancy is not all rainbows but I’ve learned that everything worth having takes effort.

But not everyone wants the same thing you do. And not every woman (or girl - young girls get pregnant, too) is in your situation.

 

[nala]

But not everyone wants the same thing you do. And not every woman (or girl - young girls get pregnant, too) is in your situation.

That’s my point. Personal anecodotes appeal to emotions—of some. We need logic.
And yet. That is what I see most on social media for women who are fighting for pro choice—Women sharing their personal anecdotes on why they got their abortions—Not very effective for the reasons you cite.

 

[redwood66]

Is reproduction a right? Are we born with the right to procreate?

IMO it would fall under natural rights. Otherwise eugenics comes to mind if it's not.

 

[telephone89]

I'm not understanding the quips about "logic". A woman should be able to decide what happens inside her own body. Some things we can't control - like periods, infertility and miscarriage. None of those things mean that a woman shouldn't be able to remove an unwanted pregnancy. I was an accident, and my mother went through a lot to have me. I am grateful, but I don't presume to know the situation of every pregnant woman in the world, and it's not my business to decide for them what situations are "bad enough" to allow an abortion.

If someone is upset over a miscarriage, I would infer that the pregnancy was wanted. Many abortions happen to people who also wanted their pregnancy but was not viable.

Your (general) religion does not mean that you should be able to make government decisions - especially in a country that touts separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs should apply to you, and you alone. There is only one religion that "believes" in this, and it should not be allowed to control millions of people who did not agree to live under its rules.

 

[Matata]

nd yet. That is what I see most on social media for women who are fighting for pro choice—Women sharing their personal anecdotes on why they got their abortions—Not very effective for the reasons you cite.

Nala, the pro lifers use appeals to emotion also -- calling abortion murder of "innocent" babies; holding up photos of aborted fetuses during protests. They are impersonal appeals for the purpose of shocking and attempting to make people feel guilty. A woman sharing her personal story of her abortion is a different animal all together.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

I haven't given particularly emotional reasons. I cite facts. Banning abortion leads to poverty, inequality and increase in crime. It results in loss of autonomy to women. It is considered a human rights abuse in several areas to force a woman to carry a fetus they do not want.
UN Human Rights:

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Women/WRGS/SexualHealth/INFO_Abortion_WEB.pdf

I don't care what your reasons are for, or against.
I only care that you get the choice.

 

[mrs-b]

How much more logic can I share? Pro choice. I am not making the decision for anyone else but me and you make your decisions and let other women make theirs. It’s those who are self righteous, self absorbed, and oblivious to others pain and suffering, who say let us tell you what’s right for you. Umm thanks no thanks.

@missy - re-post your post about owning one's own body. Re-port it a thousand times on every relevant website and thread. it's the heart of the matter. It's the whole point.

 

[nala]

I haven't given particularly emotional reasons. I cite facts. Banning abortion leads to poverty, inequality and increase in crime. It results in loss of autonomy to women. It is considered a human rights abuse in several areas to force a woman to carry a fetus they do not want.
UN Human Rights:

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Women/WRGS/SexualHealth/INFO_Abortion_WEB.pdf

I don't care what your reasons are for, or against.
I only care that you get the choice.

But abortion is legal right now and we still have crime, poverty, inequality. Lots of it. We can blame so many other systems for these issues. Why blame birth rates?