Royal Jewels

[T L]

Here's the main reason why I logged in today:

The Danish royal twins today left Rigshospitalet and went to the family's new home - Amalienborg Palace.
Here are some photos of the baby Princes & Princess and their parents



A video of Fred & Mary talking to the press (in Danish & English) today' - http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id-36547696:mary-jeg-er-så-lykkelig-og-stolt.html

Bobby

She looks that great after just carrying twins and giving birth!! Not fair!! I had twins, and I looked NOTHING like that after I had them. She'll be a size 2 next week.

JewelFreak,
Thanks again. I see that this film isn't historically accurate when it comes to royal jewels.

 

[Feeshalori]

Fascinating pictures, Laurie. Thanks!

I just want a second what others have said about the pressure put on the Japanese Crown Prince's wife. I think that's horrible. For one thing, it's not their fault if they can't have a male heir. For another, at least from my perspective, the whole thing just seems like misogyny. Why shouldn't direct descendant females be heirs? And why humiliate a man's family for something so senseless? It's too bad the powers that be (whoever they are) have these attitudes.

I read somewhere that Masako also felt pressure to marry the Crown Prince because if she did not, both her diplomatic career as well as her father's would be destroyed as retribution for refusing the IF. Not an especially nice incentive to get married!

Patricia

 

[Feeshalori]

You're welcome, Fly Girl!
Isn't rocky cristal colourless?
Mary has worn the earrings before. To me they look like large pink rain drops hanging from a simple gold hook. Maybe someome can help us with the stone?
Here's a photo from a previous outing of the earrings:

Bobby

Perhaps it's rose quartz, a crystal. I have a rose quartz similar to that color.

Patricia

 

[Fly Girl]

I'd also vote for rose quartz. Mary owns a similar pair with moonstones:

Thank you for this photo, Bobby. I'm a fan of these simple colored-stone briolette/drop earrings. Just lovely.

 

[Imdanny]

Fascinating pictures, Laurie. Thanks!

I just want a second what others have said about the pressure put on the Japanese Crown Prince's wife. I think that's horrible. For one thing, it's not their fault if they can't have a male heir. For another, at least from my perspective, the whole thing just seems like misogyny. Why shouldn't direct descendant females be heirs? And why humiliate a man's family for something so senseless? It's too bad the powers that be (whoever they are) have these attitudes.

I read somewhere that Masako also felt pressure to marry the Crown Prince because if she did not, both her diplomatic career as well as her father's would be destroyed as retribution for refusing the IF. Not an especially nice incentive to get married!

Patricia

Patricia, I have this feeling that no matter what female marries into a "royal" family, in many cases, the female is looked down upon as not a "real" royal (not royal by blood descent). I think this is so, so crazy.

If a male member of a royal family marries, he does (or should) ELEVATE his wife to, if not his role, than to his equivalent status. And yet there always seems to be this snipping (and I'm not thinking about Japan).

We heard this about Diana FOREVER. She's wasn't a true "royal." She wasn't a "real" princess. And after her divorce (which he/ they insisted on, btw), she, not just another wife of a peer, but the mother of a future king, was treated like just any other divorced woman of a peer, and publicly degraded vis a vis her title without any appropriate accommodation made for her vis a vis her status as the mother of a future king . It disgusted me.

And you know what? She had royal blood in her. When you looked into her face, you were seeing the faces of kings. Not a "true" royal. The whole situation disgusted me.

Now we have Kate Middleton, the great-granddaughter of a coal miner. I hope she'll be treated better but the jury is still out.

 

[Feeshalori]

Very true words, Danny! Diana's lineage had more blue blood in it than the BRF, it was said. And to have been stripped of her HRH after the divorce - as the mother of a future king - was disgraceful and unjust. Diana was on a different level than anyone else. Wallis Simpson was denied her HRH upon marriage to the Duke of Windsor and no matter how unpopular she was, she had legitimate right to the title because of her husband's royal status. I wouldn't blame William at all if he reinstated Diana's title after he comes to the throne. Although it does Diana little good now, poor lady, at least she'll go down in history as HRH.

I also hope Kate doesn't receive the equivalent of a royal "hazing" once she enters the Firm from the ladies of royal birth, but we will see. I'm sure it won't be the nightmare that the Japanese ladies suffer since William seems very protective of her. And if the Imperial Household Agency doesn't straighten its act out, little Prince Hisahito will have a real tough time bagging a wife in the future to propagate the line!!

 

[Feeshalori]

Very true words, Danny! Diana's lineage had more blue blood in it than the BRF, it was said. And to have been stripped of her HRH after the divorce - as the mother of a future king - was disgraceful and unjust. Diana was on a different level than anyone else. Wallis Simpson was denied her HRH upon marriage to the Duke of Windsor and no matter how unpopular she was, she had legitimate right to the title because of her husband's royal status. I wouldn't blame William at all if he reinstated Diana's title after he comes to the throne. Although it does Diana little good now, poor lady, at least she'll go down in history as HRH.

I also hope Kate doesn't receive the equivalent of a royal "hazing" once she enters the Firm from the ladies of royal birth, but we will see. I'm sure it won't be the nightmare that the Japanese ladies suffer since William seems very protective of her. And if the Imperial Household Agency doesn't straighten its act out, little Prince Hisahito will have a real tough time bagging a wife in the future to propagate the line!!

 

[Feeshalori]

Sorry for the double post; something went wonky with the system!!

Patricia

 

[JewelFreak]

And if the Imperial Household Agency doesn't straighten its act out, little Prince Hisahito will have a real tough time bagging a wife in the future to propagate the line!!

Good point, Feeshalori. The article I posted said -- and I remember my horror when it was originally reported -- that at a State banquet P. Masako, who speaks something like 4 languages, used them with foreign guests & caught hell from the IHA later. Her place was to smile and be quiet, they scolded. Think I would have packed my bags about then.

--- Laurie

 

[Feeshalori]

I'd have been right behind you, Laurie!! The IHA has a medieval mindset still about the role of the Japanese royal ladies which is to be elegant, distant and discreet. I believe Princess Kiko, Prince Akishino's wife, has a PhD in psychology (or at least her master's degree); what a waste of talent and brains for her and Masako, a former diplomat. Both ladies are fluent in several languages, but must use interpreters when they're more than capable to speak directly. As you noted, Masako got in big trouble with the IHA because she overstepped the boundary and didn't keep her mouth shut. Wow!!

Patricia

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Danny (Patricia & Laurie), with all due respect and knowing what Diana meant to you, why do you think that she had to be treated in a more special way than other divorced women? I know she was the mother of a future monarch and was much loved by the masses, but Lady Diana married HRH The Prince of Wales and for the duration of their marital life enjoyed his titles and styles. You know that when Miss Jane Smith marries Mister John Douglas she becomes Mrs John Douglas. Upon divorce she becomes Mrs Jane Douglas, or if she wishes - Mrs Jane Smith. The same with Diana - after the divorce she became Diana, Princess of Wales.
Another example is Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent - had she divorced the Duke (I'm saying this only for the sake of examples), she would've became HRH Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark, Duchess of Kent (or HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent - a title she used later in life). In this case, however the HRH and the title of Princess were hers by birth. It's as simple as that.

Lady Diana had more royal/blue blood than the royal family - how is that possible? Yes, she was indded of royal descent through four illegimete sons of King George II, but other that that her ancestors were aristocrats marrying other aristocrats. On the other hand, Prince Charles comes from a family where royals married other royals for centuries (the late Queen Elizabeth being an exception) -> Prince Charls has more royal/ blue blood than his first spouce (and his second one for that matter).

Restoring the HRH - had Diana lived longer and had she surpassed her former husband, it is possible that her elder son would have restored her HRH upon accending to the throne. Now, however, that seems impossible. But that's something we can't be sure about. For some people she will remain the one and only Princess of Wales anyway.
And what if she remarried? What do you think of the styling HRH Lady Diana Al-Fayed (or whatever the surname of her imagined 2nd husband might've been)? And what if she embaressed herself and the RF is the way Sarah, Duchess of York did? With an HRH and a title of some sort the royal family would've been stick with her forever... I'm not really keen on that idea.

Regards,
Bogdan

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Good point, Feeshalori. The article I posted said -- and I remember my horror when it was originally reported -- that at a State banquet P. Masako, who speaks something like 4 languages, used them with foreign guests & caught hell from the IHA later. Her place was to smile and be quiet, they scolded. Think I would have packed my bags about then.

--- Laurie

That's horrifying! Now I feel even more sorry for the poor women that marry into the Imperial Family. It seems that the IHA is indeed a pretty medival and restricting institution. Lets hope that some day The Crown Prince (as Emperor) will do something so that the memrbers of the family can have some more freedom, including enjoy speaking in foreign languages (if they allow him anyway).
But I don't remeber seeing a link to that article. Can you please repost it or quote the post where you posted it?

Thanks in advance!
Bobby

 

[Feeshalori]

[quote="prince.of.preslav|

Restoring the HRH - had Diana lived longer and had she surpassed her former husband, it is possible that her elder son would have restored her HRH upon accending to the throne. Now, however, that seems impossible. But that's something we can't be sure about. For some people she will remain the one and only Princess of Wales anyway.
And what if she remarried? What do you think of the styling HRH Lady Diana Al-Fayed (or whatever the surname of her imagined 2nd husband might've been)? And what if she embaressed herself and the RF is the way Sarah, Duchess of York did? With an HRH and a title of some sort the royal family would've been stick with her forever... I'm not really keen on that idea.

Regards,
Bogdan[/quote]


There's truth in what you say, Bobby. I think of the Danish Prince Joachim and his wife, the former Princess Alexandra. She was known as Her Highness Princess Alexandra after the divorce and became the Countess of Frederiksborg upon her remarriage. Of course, the circumstances of the divorces were very different and the granting of titles as well, since in the other monarchies the women are named princesses in their own right which allowed Alexandra to carry her title linked to her name until her remarriage. In Diana's case, she could only be known as the Princess of Wales. And if Diana had ever remarried, she'd have forfeited the POW title, although one wonders if the Queen would have granted her an alternate title in her own right. I know this is OT and all conjecture, but it's always interesting to speculate when there's a good discussion going on. And if I got anything incorrect here in this post, please pardon me.

Patricia

 

[prince.of.preslav]

There's only one slight mistake in your post, dear Patricia. The wifes of the Danish princes are not Princesses in their own right. It's customarry for Denmark to style the wifes of it's Princes with their own names rather than the names of their husbands. In Danish the wifes of Frederik and Joachim are Princesses af Denmark, while their husbands and children are til Denmark. Currently there are only four Princesses of (til) Denmark in their own right - TRH Princesses Isabella, NN and Benddikete and HH Princess Elizabeth.
After her divorce from Prince Joachim the former Princess Alexandra became HH Princess Alexandra oD, and soon her own comital title was added. But she was not a member of the Royal Family anylonger. Now she was a member of the Danish Royal House, to which Queen Anne-Marie (a.o.) also belong. This was done, I believe, because once she married she lost her surname. She is now in her legal documents HE Alexandra Christina, Grevinde af Frederiksborg.

Since we're getting a bit off topic, I'd like to add this glittering photo from 2004 of the once happy couple. You'll also notice The Prince's Danish aunts wearing their finest jewellery in the background.

Bobby

 

[Feeshalori]

You're never off topic when you post jewels along with the discussion, LOL! Is that Alexandra's beautiful tiara that she was allowed to keep after the divorce? Don't think she has much occasion to wear it now. Thanks, Bobby.

Patricia

 

[JewelFreak]

Bobby, the article on Masako is here: http://theroyaluniverse.com/princess-masako-useless/ There are many others too. Apparently an unauthorized biography of her was written by an Australian journalist in 2007 but the Japanese gov't put major pressure not to bring it out on the Japanese publisher planning a translated version. I don't think it was ever sold in Japan.

As to Diana & the HRH, I really can't get excited about it. At the time I thought it was somewhat small of the RF to take away the title, but on the other hand, in that whole thing nobody behaved very royally nor very highly. As the mother of the future king, she deserved to keep it, but I really doubt she cared much, and I don't think it's of major importance either. Pretty much everyone still called her "maam" (what else were they going to call her? Mrs. Windsor?) and I imagine she was relieved not to have people curtsying away when she met them. Many probably did it anyhow. An HRH isn't worth much else in practicality. William won't restore it -- by the time he becomes king Diana will have been gone for 40 years or so. My impression is that he wants to remember the personal Diana, the mother he knew, and have nothing to do with all the scandal & drama.

I can actually see the point: she was no longer the wife of the PoW, from whom she derived her official royalty. However, not giving Wallis the HRH is totally understandable. Both she & the DoW behaved so abominally before & after his relinquishment of the throne, they surely didn't earn any favors from the RF. The fact that they made such a fuss about it for so many decades is evidence of how little they deserved it.

--- Laurie

 

[Imdanny]

Very true words, Danny! Diana's lineage had more blue blood in it than the BRF, it was said. And to have been stripped of her HRH after the divorce - as the mother of a future king - was disgraceful and unjust. Diana was on a different level than anyone else. Wallis Simpson was denied her HRH upon marriage to the Duke of Windsor and no matter how unpopular she was, she had legitimate right to the title because of her husband's royal status. I wouldn't blame William at all if he reinstated Diana's title after he comes to the throne. Although it does Diana little good now, poor lady, at least she'll go down in history as HRH.!

Hear, hear.

 

[Imdanny]

Danny (Patricia & Laurie), with all due respect and knowing what Diana meant to you, why do you think that she had to be treated in a more special way than other divorced women? I know she was the mother of a future monarch and was much loved by the masses, but Lady Diana married HRH The Prince of Wales and for the duration of their marital life enjoyed his titles and styles. You know that when Miss Jane Smith marries Mister John Douglas she becomes Mrs John Douglas. Upon divorce she becomes Mrs Jane Douglas, or if she wishes - Mrs Jane Smith. The same with Diana - after the divorce she became Diana, Princess of Wales.
Another example is Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent - had she divorced the Duke (I'm saying this only for the sake of examples), she would've became HRH Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark, Duchess of Kent (or HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent - a title she used later in life). In this case, however the HRH and the title of Princess were hers by birth. It's as simple as that.

Lady Diana had more royal/blue blood than the royal family - how is that possible? Yes, she was indded of royal descent through four illegimete sons of King George II, but other that that her ancestors were aristocrats marrying other aristocrats. On the other hand, Prince Charles comes from a family where royals married other royals for centuries (the late Queen Elizabeth being an exception) -> Prince Charls has more royal/ blue blood than his first spouce (and his second one for that matter).

Restoring the HRH - had Diana lived longer and had she surpassed her former husband, it is possible that her elder son would have restored her HRH upon accending to the throne. Now, however, that seems impossible. But that's something we can't be sure about. For some people she will remain the one and only Princess of Wales anyway.
And what if she remarried? What do you think of the styling HRH Lady Diana Al-Fayed (or whatever the surname of her imagined 2nd husband might've been)? And what if she embaressed herself and the RF is the way Sarah, Duchess of York did? With an HRH and a title of some sort the royal family would've been stick with her forever... I'm not really keen on that idea.

Regards,
Bogdan

I've given my opinion many times, Bobby. Diana was not just the wife of any other peer. She was the mother of a future king. To publicly denigrate her, and only her, of her nuclear family (herself, Charles, and their two sons) was a misogynistic degradation and as such was uncalled for.

It's just what I was saying in the post above. Diana, you're "a royal"- oops, no, Diana, you're not a "royal". Whatever, 1/2 her blood is the future of the succession.

And, again, as I said, if you want to know why so many people perceive it as an injustice, he and his family forced the divorce on her. It was his/ their demand. It was not her wish to be divorced.

I suspect that Charles cared about nothing other than clearing the way for what he imagined to be his future marriage to Camilla.

I find his actions toward Diana contemptible, from beginning to end.

Thanks for asking.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Danny, I see your point and in a way I agree with it. But why do you want them to have continued living in an agony, something the marriage was for both of them in the end? Isn't this one of the reasons why there are divorces? Didn't they both find their own way after the divorce? And have you ever seen The Prince of Walse happier than in the last 6 years...

Last year I read on the British Royals MB that Diana issued a statement that she didn't want to be known as an HRH after the divorce. The Queen simply made that official. I'm not sure if that comemnt was accurate though. What I'm sure about is that by a letters patent from 21.08.1996 the former wifes of British princes could no longer enjoy the style (HRH). This made the former Duchess of York (Sarah) the first one to lose the prefix.

Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Bobby, the article on Masako is here:
--- Laurie

Thank you, dear. I'll read the article later today. The whole discussion here made want to learn something more about the Japanese Crown Princess.

I'm glad you agree with me about Diana, Princess of Wales' post-marital style.

Bobby

 

[JewelFreak]

Nice photo of P. Madeleine from Hello Mag. I love that tiara.

 

[Imdanny]

Danny, I see your point and in a way I agree with it. But why do you want them to have continued living in an agony, something the marriage was for both of them in the end? Isn't this one of the reasons why there are divorces? Didn't they both find their own way after the divorce? And have you ever seen The Prince of Walse happier than in the last 6 years...

Bobby

Bobby,

What you call the Prince of Wales' happiness means nothing to me, nor would I have cared for Diana to be "happy" in the marriage. I think that they should have stayed married and carried out their duties to the public. It would have made no difference to me if the Prince had to have a mistress. Plenty of men in his position have had mistresses throughout history. Neither is it likely that they would not have been able to lead their lives their own way as you call it considering they hardly had to live in a one bedroom apartment. The Prince of Wales might be happy but Diana is deceased. Call me traditional but I believe that they should have stayed married. No marriage is perfect. No human being is perfect. But what happened to their marriage and subsequently Diana is a tragedy that history will have to live with forever. So I must respectfully disagree with you about the divorce. In truth, I don't think any of them handled the situation well, including Diana, whose downfall, it seems to me, was seeking personal happiness, when she should have, I think, chosen her role as Princess of Wales above personal considerations. This is as fair as I can be in giving my opinion, because it pains me to criticize her, but these are my feelings about it.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Danny, I must admit I'm shocked by your words. So far I've always believed you felt really sorry for Diana, Princess of Wales because of her unhappy marriage, her husband's extramarital affairs (although she also had) and other such things. Things that didn't make her happy in that realtionship. Now I see that I've been wrong. People differ in their opinion, it seems.

Even though I don't agree with you, I do respect what you're saying. Hope we can still be on-line friends (if you've ever considered me one).

Yours,
Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Nice photo of P. Madeleine from Hello Mag. I love that tiara.

Nice photo. I hope the Princess' elder sister will also wear that choker someday (the sooner the better). And lets hope will see glitteing Madeleine more often this year.

Bobby

 

[lulu]

I agree with Imdanny. Prince Philip had numerous affairs but the Queen did not divorce him. Diana and Charles should have remained married.

 

[LadyMaria]

She looks that great after just carrying twins and giving birth!! Not fair!! I had twins, and I looked NOTHING like that after I had them. She'll be a size 2 next week.

I'm with you on this one TL!!!

 

[LadyMaria]

I'd have been right behind you, Laurie!! The IHA has a medieval mindset still about the role of the Japanese royal ladies which is to be elegant, distant and discreet. I believe Princess Kiko, Prince Akishino's wife, has a PhD in psychology (or at least her master's degree); what a waste of talent and brains for her and Masako, a former diplomat. Both ladies are fluent in several languages, but must use interpreters when they're more than capable to speak directly. As you noted, Masako got in big trouble with the IHA because she overstepped the boundary and didn't keep her mouth shut. Wow!!

Patricia

I didn't know that...interesting. I've always thought that Princess Kiko was the good little princess who caved into the whims of the IHA without any arguement. After all, she did get pregnant again with Hisahito at the age of 40 after it was clear that Masako would not be having a son. So I wonder, what is it about Kiko who seemed to have no problem with the "shut up and smile" decree of the IHA? Does she just have a personality to where she doesn't mind being told what to do, what to wear, what to say, and when to have kids?

 

[Feeshalori]

http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e-about/activity/activity03.html

I'm posting the link to the IHA's website where you can read Princess Kiko's credentials. She's definitely received her master's degree in psychology and is proficient in the use of sign language. I had also read, not in this link, that she had started the first part of her doctoral studies but has since suspended her studies. Hmm. Prince Akishino has his doctorate in ornithology. A couple of very bright royals in the IF along with the Crown Prince and Masako. So brilliant and yet unable to do anything about the IHA's stranglehold on the IF and court.

And you've hit the nail on the head, I think, LadyMaria, in your analysis of Kiko's personality. She didn't buck the system and went along with the status quo. She's survived in the environment because she obviously does what she's told. No doubt, this is how she's managed to avoid the breakdowns that the Empress and Masako suffered, but one wonders at what cost? Perhaps she gets rewarded for her malleability and for producing the heir by some nice perks and is happy enough. Who knows?

Patricia

 

[JewelFreak]

P. Kiko may have done advanced studies but it looks like she is ultimately a traditional Japanese woman in temperament or belief, or both. It may not be such a struggle for her because she feels submission is the correct thing to do. The majority of Japanese women who have degrees don't use them after marriage; some must be resentful but others are part of the culture, Kiko maybe included.

Danny, in the old days when Prince Philip was doing his thing -- and forever before that -- utmost discretion was the key to making it work. Among the nobility, divorces usually resulted if anyone was caught openly in compromising circumstances. I shudder to think what would have happened if Philip's involvement in the Christine Keeler affair had been known by the British people at the time, for instance. It was no secret in diplomatic & social circles but was treated with good old-fashioned silence publicly.

Essential to this was the cooperation of the press, which printed not a whisper, nor of Philip's other peccadillos. There were no paparazzi thrusting telescope lenses over garden walls, no tabloids offering bundles of money to "friends" and servants for gossip, no reporters stalking every step they took. It's completely impossible to conduct an affair now with any kind of secrecy. Miserable together, both the Waleses would have continued affairs; they were human. If they had stayed married, the monarchy would have fallen. The tabs made the RF look like Peyton Place on steroids as it was. I'm sure that's why QE consented & encouraged them to get it over with. It's a completely different time now with the gentlemanly behavior all around that made discretion possible a long-gone memory.

--- Laurie

 

[Imdanny]

Danny, I must admit I'm shocked by your words. So far I've always believed you felt really sorry for Diana, Princess of Wales because of her unhappy marriage, her husband's extramarital affairs (although she also had) and other such things. Things that didn't make her happy in that realtionship. Now I see that I've been wrong. People differ in their opinion, it seems.

Even though I don't agree with you, I do respect what you're saying. Hope we can still be on-line friends (if you've ever considered me one).

Yours,
Bobby

Bobby, of course we're online friends. Don't ever doubt it.

For the record, I don't think that she should have had affairs. I don't think that he should have had an affair. Ideally.

And my opinions are just the opinions of one person. They don't really matter anyway.

My opinions are selfish, actually. I only want whatever I can see in hindsight that would have led to Diana still being with us.

But it doesn't matter. It's the past and there's nothing anyone can do to change it.

Kind regards,
Danny