Shorts too short...should I tell her??

[CJ2008]

Uh oh. That's what they used to say about mini skirts! You know, (and I'm not trying to stir the pot, I swear) that kind of mentality is the same as saying a rape victim somehow "asked for it" because of the way she was dressed. I'm not a fan of slut-shaming or victim-blaming. I think we need to be careful in our word choices because it's a slippery slope.

I could not agree with you more. I took offense as soon as I "heard" the word "tramp" in this thread. How dare anyone decide that a pair of shorts makes a "tramp"?

One might think that I raised a child who wear a lot of make-up and revealing clothing from the way that I am posting. In reality, my daughter usually wear no make-up at all. And no jewelry at all. And she was raised in Lilly Pulitzer clothing. That is not the point. The point is that kenny was right. People should be able to wear what they like and let others wear what they like.

And I am not speaking about work. Obviously. I am a professional myself.

Deb/AGBF

I said " trampy". Which would imply like a tramp. And its not a judgment. As I said everyone can dress trampy. I'm sure I've dressed trampy. Just as I've dressed punk-y and like a hippy. Ones personality is not defined by their clothes. And dressing trampy isn't necessarily a negative. Dress risqué, what do I care. I fully believe a woman is allowed to do that

I agree with this...trampy doesn't imply the person BEHAVES or IS a tramp.

I don't like when women dress trampy - I think women look a lot better and much more attractive when they're dressed classy and not too revealing - when you can tell they have a killer body but still choose not to reveal too much. But that is MY preference, that is MY style...I don't think revealing a lot means "I want to be raped." Raped by its very definition is against someone's will. I do agree with aljdewey though that it is attention-seeking behavior...but again, attention is a far cry from anything being done against your will, especially of a physical nature.

 

[CJ2008]

My teen daughter interpreted this trend and the accompanying slang for us.

These shorts are called "booty shorts".

And you only wear them if you are "thirsty" (horny ).

They are often worn by a girl who is a "ratchet" (ethnic trashy) or "basic" (caucasian trashy).

So . . . yeah . . . chances are she knew exactly what she was wearing.

That's pretty scary that that's the known "rule" among teenagers, that if anyone is wearing shorts that short, they must know that they're advertising they're horny (and asking for it?)

Its sad because that's such a typical remark of rape culture.

I may think its trampy. But its not like I've never gone out in a short skirt.... Women should be allowed to dress tampy without people thinking they are asking for it.

NOOOOOO! It's not a rape thing at all.

It's considered okay for a girl to be that way. Among teens, it's an "enjoying your own sexuality thing".

Within their own sub-groups, it's fine.

I put in the word "trashy" because IMHO it is not right. But that's me, someone old-fashioned that wishes a comitted relationship came before sex. But what do I know? Here we go again . . .

Oh.

Well, that's comforting, then. Good.

ETA - actually, although it's BETTER than how I originally perceived it, the fact that any piece of clothing can be equated with being horny is still a very slippery slope. At some point a teenager somewhere will think that because she's saying she's horny it gives him permission to do x.

Although we could argue that any person who would be willing to do anything like that probably wouldn't need that piece of clothing - anything could justify their actions in their mind. She talks a certain way, acts a certain way, etc.

Still - the mentality is not helpful.

 

[AGBF]

There seems to be a major disagreement between some of us posters over what the word "trampy" implies. To me it is extremely pejorative. I do not know if this is entirely a generational matter or if we would have perceived the word differently even if we were the same ages based on our geographical locations and backgrounds.

I would never say that I chose to dress, "trampy" as some of you have said that would. If I chose to wear a revealing dress, for instance, I would never choose that word. To me the word, "trampy" is reserved for someone who has loose morals and whose make-up and dress reflect a low socioeconomic status conjoined with those poor moral standards. It is a judgement and a very negative one that implies knowing someone's character.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Niel]

There seems to be a major disagreement between some of us posters over what the word "trampy" implies. To me it is extremely pejorative. I do not know if this is entirely a generational matter or if we would have perceived the word differently even if we were the same ages based on our geographical locations and backgrounds.

I would never say that I chose to dress, "trampy" as some of you have said that would. If I chose to wear a revealing dress, for instance, I would never choose that word. To me the word, "trampy" is reserved for someone who has loose morals and whose make-up and dress reflect a low socioeconomic status conjoined with those poor moral standards. It is a judgement and a very negative one that implies knowing someone's character.

Deb/AGBF

I disagree with that definition.

But for the sake of you understanding my point, replace trampy with risqué and I think you'll understand my point.

 

[CJ2008]

There seems to be a major disagreement between some of us posters over what the word "trampy" implies. To me it is extremely pejorative. I do not know if this is entirely a generational matter or if we would have perceived the word differently even if we were the same ages based on our geographical locations and backgrounds.

I would never say that I chose to dress, "trampy" as some of you have said that would. If I chose to wear a revealing dress, for instance, I would never choose that word. To me the word, "trampy" is reserved for someone who has loose morals and whose make-up and dress reflect a low socioeconomic status conjoined with those poor moral standards. It is a judgement and a very negative one that implies knowing someone's character.

Deb/AGBF

I'm kind of with you on the word "trampy" (eta in the sense that I don't like that word / I didn't really grow up hearing it being used) - I actually don't think I've ever used that word before, ever...although I probably have used the words trashy or slutty...which might be pretty up there in judgment as trampy is...

But in all seriousness I think I am much more likely to say - especially for like the last 10 years, as opposed to when I was younger - "she doesn't' look classy" or "it's too much skin" rather than using any of the above words.

ETA - oooh risque, I like that. Perfect word Niel.

 

[kenny]

I hate that, 'She asked for it, look how she was dressed" attitude.
You can't expect men to control themselves when women show so much flesh" is the same mentality that keeps women hidden under veils in much of the world.

Men must be held fully accountable for controlling their impulses, and women should be free to dress as they please.

Now, all you ladies say, "Cheeeeese!".

 

[Maria D]

Does anybody else have a Cher earworm going on? "She was a scamp, a camp, and a bit of a tramp, she was a V-A-M-P - Vamp!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdqwXnkNDs

 

[aljdewey]

To me the word, "trampy" is reserved for someone who has loose morals and whose make-up and dress reflect a low socioeconomic status conjoined with those poor moral standards. It is a judgement and a very negative one that implies knowing someone's character.

I accept that's what it means to you; to me, it means to dress or behave in a way that suggests low socioeconomic status and possibly loose morals.

If I see a teenager dressed like that, my first thought is "I hope she is dressed that way because she's too naive to realize how those around her may perceive her based on her choice of dress." If I see a woman dressed that way, I assume she knows what people around her may think and isn't disturbed by people possibly making assumptions about overt sexuality.

Frankly, I think my overriding thought when the wearers are younger is "well, they overshare everything else, so it's not wholly surprising they overshare in having themselves hanging out of their clothing, too."

 

[Dancing Fire]

My teen daughter interpreted this trend and the accompanying slang for us.

These shorts are called "booty shorts".

And you only wear them if you are "thirsty" (horny ).

 

[Dreamer_D]

No, she can feel them and she has a mirror. Shorts being too short is just an opinion.

I dunno... when your 26-year-old son comments, upon seeing an attractive teen girl sashay, with her parents, past us at a neighborhood restaurant at brunch last week, "they let her out of the house in those, jeezus, what are they thinking?", I'd say those shorts are too short.

Or maybe the 26 year old son needs a lesson in judging women based on clothing choices, or assuming that parents need to police young women's attire

 

[stracci2000]

The thing is, the girl thought she looked good dressed like that.
Almost everyone leaves the house wearing something that they think looks good on them. When I see women (and men) wearing too tight clothes, too short shorts, or way too much makeup, I always feel a little sympathetic, because I assume that they are thinking they look good that way.
As teens, I think we all may have dressed inappropriately at some point, thinking we were in style and looking great.

 

[arkieb1]

It's been going on for decades, in the 50s boys with leather jackets and slicked down hair were taboo, in the 20s the flappers were wanton women, in the 70s the mini skirt meant loose morals in the decade of the sexual revolution for women.

Are we really that shallow that we need to judge teens or anyone else how they dress? Teens and early 20s will always push the boundaries to get attention, discover their sexuality and to non conform - unless I've missed something that is what they do. And as I pointed out it's really warm where I live, a lot of people of all ages wear those shorts, more than half are falling out of them or do not have a body shape where it looks attractive but if they feel comfortable wearing them, more power to them.... On the Gold Coast they have bikini model parking/meter maids in cowboy hats and the scantest of swimwear. People go there because it's an attraction, not something to ridicule.

 

[momhappy]

Does anybody else have a Cher earworm going on? "She was a scamp, a camp, and a bit of a tramp, she was a V-A-M-P - Vamp!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdqwXnkNDs

I have this Cher ear worm (again, with the word tramp):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSZwEwl_1Q

Seriously, though, I do not find the word "trampy" appropriate in this thread. The term has been around for ages (just check the dates on the Cher video clips) and I'd be wiling to bet that the definition is pretty commonly/widely understood. If you're saying that someone looks trampy, then it's pretty obvious that you're making a judgment call about them and/or their morals.

 

[MollyMalone]

Or maybe the 26 year old son needs a lesson in judging women based on clothing choices, or assuming that parents need to police young women's attire

Oh, I'm confident that the young man who, e.g., was recruited by his college's Women Center to be on their board & then served as co-chair in his senior year of the town-wide Take Back the Night has feminist cred, and rightly so.

His comment about the 14-15 year-old in the butt-cheek revealing, short shorts, and whose parents were dressed as if they had come from church, is doubtlessly a reflection of the fact I "policed" his attire in certain respects as he was growing up. E.g., when he accompanied us to Lincoln Center or a Broadway show, he was in a jacket and tie, no jeans or sneakers; I had the same expectations of him for a funeral or church wedding & certain Manhattan restaurants. Shoot me.

 

[aljdewey]

No, she can feel them and she has a mirror. Shorts being too short is just an opinion.

I dunno... when your 26-year-old son comments, upon seeing an attractive teen girl sashay, with her parents, past us at a neighborhood restaurant at brunch last week, "they let her out of the house in those, jeezus, what are they thinking?", I'd say those shorts are too short.[/quote]

Or maybe the 26 year old son needs a lesson in judging women based on clothing choices, or assuming that parents need to police young women's attire)[/quote]

MollyM, I wouldn't agree that the 26 year old son needs a lesson at all. He, like everyone else, forms opinions based on what he sees. Everyone makes judgments about people based on what they see, and it's not just women either.

If I see a dishelved-looking man wearing a untucked wrinkled shirt, wrinkled pants, uncombed hair and a 3-day beard, I'm sure I'd form opinions based on his appearance as well. I'd like form opinions about men in super scant speedos with THEIR butts hanging out, or those who wear t-shirts with incredibly crass messages on them.

How we appear to people both visually and auditory creates impressions about us to others - that's a fact of life. It's entirely possible that one's first impressions may change upon getting to know those people better, but if that doesn't happen, all someone has to form their opinions is what people present about themselves.

Frankly, the fact that the shorts struck that 26-year old as being inappropriate walking-around wear says a lot to me about him in a good way.

 

[Niel]

Does anybody else have a Cher earworm going on? "She was a scamp, a camp, and a bit of a tramp, she was a V-A-M-P - Vamp!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdqwXnkNDs

I have this Cher ear worm (again, with the word tramp):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSZwEwl_1Q

Seriously, though, I do not find the word "trampy" appropriate in this thread. The term has been around for ages (just check the dates on the Cher video clips) and I'd be wiling to bet that the definition is pretty commonly/widely understood. If you're saying that someone looks trampy, then it's pretty obvious that you're making a judgment call about them and/or their morals.

If you want us all to have your social definition of tramp then fine for the sake of this conversation I'll concede and say it a tramp is someone who has loose morals. To your definition.

Someone who LOOKS TRAMPY. Is someone who looks as a tramp. So LOOKS like someone with LOOSE MORALS.

this is not calling someone a tramp as looks like does not equate to BEING.

Its genuinely surprising to me that this is offending some of you. I do not mean to offend. So for that I do apologize.

But short skirts and sexual body parts hanging out make me think "that's similar to something a gal with loose morals might do" so to me that does mean she looks trampy. Not that she is a tramp.

 

[crown1]

There is such a thing as respect for others. I respect your right to wear what you like just don't care for it personally. How about you respect others who don't wish to see it. I can look the other way. It is a little hard to have young children in tow who eye exposed cheeks. I don't expect it to change but I don't have to admire it. The human body is beautiful, some butt escaping the shorts, not so much to my eye. It is right along with showing butt cracks with low pants in the back. But I don't control the world, just commenting.

 

[momhappy]

Does anybody else have a Cher earworm going on? "She was a scamp, a camp, and a bit of a tramp, she was a V-A-M-P - Vamp!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdqwXnkNDs

I have this Cher ear worm (again, with the word tramp):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSZwEwl_1Q

Seriously, though, I do not find the word "trampy" appropriate in this thread. The term has been around for ages (just check the dates on the Cher video clips) and I'd be wiling to bet that the definition is pretty commonly/widely understood. If you're saying that someone looks trampy, then it's pretty obvious that you're making a judgment call about them and/or their morals.

If you want us all to have your social definition of tramp then fine for the sake of this conversation I'll concede and say it a tramp is someone who has loose morals. To your definition.

Someone who LOOKS TRAMPY. Is someone who looks as a tramp. So LOOKS like someone with LOOSE MORALS.

this is not calling someone a tramp as looks like does not equate to BEING.

Its genuinely surprising to me that this is offending some of you. I do not mean to offend. So for that I do apologize.

But short skirts and sexual body parts hanging out make me think "that's similar to something a gal with loose morals might do" so to me that does mean she looks trampy. Not that she is a tramp.

The definition of the word "tramp" isn't mine, so I don't want (or care) if we all have the same definition - my point was that most of us already share the same meaning of the term (with no explanation needed).

 

[Niel]

OK. So here's the definition. I dont particularly see anything about morals.
Possibly your definition is the first. Probabaly the most common as its first, mine would be the last. A promiscuous woman.

I, personally, do not find promiscuity a mark of poor morals. I find it perfectly appropriate for someone to have 2 sexual partners or 20. But if your ass is hanging out of your pants, I think you DRESS like someone who has a more open sexuality, which wouldnt be a stretch as she's letting a sexual body part hang out.

Is she promiscuous? I don't know. I don't care if she is or isn't. But you can dress in a way that looks a certain way. Everyone does it. In sure there are people who dress risqué who haven't had any sexual partners, and people with many sexual partners who dress very conservatively.

If you find promiscuity equivalent to having loose morals, I can see why you night be offended by it. I do not equate the two.

 

[iLander]

Sooooo . . . what exactly is the definition of loose morals?

I thought it was characterized by being promiscuous.

Apparently it's not?

 

[kenny]

Sooooo . . . what exactly is the definition of loose morals?

Any morals looser than mine, of course.
I mean, it's just common sense.
It's just obvious my morals are correct and shared by everyone.

 

[GliderPoss]

No. She knows exactly how short they are. And if she doesn't - which would be unlikely - her boyfriend knows. And I'm sure likes it that way...

This exactly. If she has killer legs - more power to her! Wish I did....

 

[April20]

If it was someone I knew personally I would absolutely tell them their a$$ was hanging out. A stranger, no. I just point and giggle. (Not really)

 

[pregcurious]

No. She knows exactly how short they are. And if she doesn't - which would be unlikely - her boyfriend knows. And I'm sure likes it that way...

+1

 

[aljdewey]

I, personally, do not find promiscuity a mark of poor morals. I find it perfectly appropriate for someone to have 2 sexual partners or 20. .....If you find promiscuity equivalent to having loose morals, I can see why you night be offended by it. I do not equate the two.

You may not find it so, but it would appear the dictionary does (since we're whipping out the old dictionary). One of the definitions of promiscuous is "characterized by or involving indiscriminate mingling or association, especially having sexual relations with a number of partners on a casual basis. ", which seems to be in pretty stark contrast to one of the definitions for morality, which includes "virtue in sexual matters; chastity."

While some folks don't toe as tough a line on those definitions in today's climate, there is a traditional basis for considering those two things (promiscuity and deficiency of morals) related.

 

[AGBF]

While some folks don't toe as tough a line on those definitions in today's climate, there is a traditional basis for considering those two things (promiscuity and deficiency of morals) related.

A traditional basis for it. Well who woulda thunk it?

Deb

 

[AprilBaby]

I wouldn't say a thing. She knows exactly what she looks like and doesn't care what anyone else thinks.

Tonight I took my BFF out to a really nice restaurant for dinner for her birthday. It was also graduation night for a local HS so lots of families were taking their seniors out for post graduation dinner. We saw three girls who looked like they were wearing sexy lingerie for dresses to dinner. I was embarrassed for them. They were so short and skimpy and low cut they looked like something out of Fredrick's of Hollywood. Now this was their graduation dress. My times have changed! No way my daughter would have gone out like that. Especially in front of her father and brothers!

 

[TooPatient]

There is such a thing as respect for others. I respect your right to wear what you like just don't care for it personally. How about you respect others who don't wish to see it. I can look the other way. It is a little hard to have young children in tow who eye exposed cheeks. I don't expect it to change but I don't have to admire it. The human body is beautiful, some butt escaping the shorts, not so much to my eye. It is right along with showing butt cracks with low pants in the back. But I don't control the world, just commenting.

This.

I respect you and your choices, but take a little time to do the same for others. Maybe some of us don't want to see that and there ARE situations when you can't just turn your head to try to not see.

Be aware of where you are going and what is reasonable for that place. Whether that is perfume or clothing or whatever. That is all part of showing respect for the people around you. If you are on a resort beach or an adults only cruise you dress differently than if you are at a family restaurant or kids' fair. Simple as that. You also don't wear perfume into an intensive care unit where people are having difficulty breathing. You don't invite vegans over to a whole pig roast. The list goes on.
Part of being grown up is taking a LITTLE bit of time to be considerate of those around you.

 

[crown1]

I am having a hard time grasping the support of what would reasonably, in my opinion, be considered indecent. At one time, there was something called indecent exposure. I am not sure showing one's butt cheeks would technically qualify for this charge but it has crossed my mind. I have never heard anyone defend those made fun of for showing butt crack. I am trying to understand how we got to the point of "defending" one's right to possibly offend others so one can show off their skin. I know what a butt cheek looks like, and it does not hurt me if you show yours, but I prefer not to see it standing in line at a restaurant. I guess it is legal for you to do so, but when you do don't expect people won't comment on it to others. Maybe that is what you are going for? In that case you succeeded. So much of what I feel is wrong with our society today is thinking only of one's self. I am sure this will not be popular and I will refrain from further comment but please tell me how it is hurting anyone to cover their own butt in public.

 

[monarch64]

I guess I just think it isn't really anyone's right to tell someone else how to dress or what NOT to wear (unless you're Stacey and Clinton). The idea that "good girls" don't wear revealing clothing and "bad girls" are basic bitches who wear booty shorts and low cut tops seems so outdated and so contradictory to the feminist as well as the pro-choice movement, both of which I happen to believe strongly in.

Is yours an absolutist position ? As an employer/supervisor, I'm very comfortable with counseling those who come to work in attire that's not appropriate (I've done it more than once over the years).

In a work environment there are dress requirements for safety reasons and the company has the right to determine what is acceptable attire for their workplace if they choose to do so. If a company is paying an employee to be their representative, obviously they have the right to dictate how exactly the employee will dress.

A citizen in the U.S. is free (within the various laws of public decency) to wear what they like in public.

When I first started working, in the late 90s, one of the companies would not allow females to wear pants unless they ALSO wore a jacket/sweater that covered their butt completely. Another company I worked for straight out of college would not allow females to wear pants, period. Imagine that...just 15-20 years ago.

NO, I would rather not look at an area very close to someone's genitalia while in public. That could be butt cheek, or it could be sweaty dudes wearing no shirt, or wearing basketball shorts with an obvious lack of "confining" undergarments, trousers through which I can clearly see that a man is circumsized or not, etc.