Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in NYC.

[ksinger]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

Let me just say that I don't wanna break my 25 yr winning streak.

Well, a great way to win (not get OR pass on) the flu is to get vaccinated. That goes for any infectious disease that can be prevented through vaccinations. You may be winning, but in your 25 years of not getting a flu shot, it's very likely that you have given it to someone else.

Yes have coodys, so explain to me why some people whom had gotten the flu shot still catch the flu?.. obviously it does not work for every body.

msop04 already did explain it, above.

"Most people who contract the flu after getting the shot have either waited too long or happened to be around a carrier prior to the immunization. If more people would get vaccinated, there would be a lot less chance of contracting from a carrier. That said, I am still amazed at those who insist that the flu vaccine "gave them the flu.""

I known people whom had gotten their flu shot on time and yet they still caught the flu. I am still amazed at those who insist that the flu vaccine will prevent them from catching the flu.

And there you have it folks! (banging head on desk)

 

[amc80]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

Let me just say that I don't wanna break my 25 yr winning streak.

Well, a great way to win (not get OR pass on) the flu is to get vaccinated. That goes for any infectious disease that can be prevented through vaccinations. You may be winning, but in your 25 years of not getting a flu shot, it's very likely that you have given it to someone else.

Yes have coodys, so explain to me why some people whom had gotten the flu shot still catch the flu?.. obviously it does not work for every body.

msop04 already did explain it, above.

"Most people who contract the flu after getting the shot have either waited too long or happened to be around a carrier prior to the immunization. If more people would get vaccinated, there would be a lot less chance of contracting from a carrier. That said, I am still amazed at those who insist that the flu vaccine "gave them the flu.""

I known people whom had gotten their flu shot on time and yet they still caught the flu. I am still amazed at those who insist that the flu vaccine will prevent them from catching the flu.

It doesn't protect from ALL strains.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

[quote="amc80|1395097544|
It doesn't protect from ALL strains.[/quote]


So just hoping to get lucky?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

[quote="ksinger|1395097363|

And there you have it folks! (banging head on desk)[/quote]


The best flu vaccine on the market today...

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

This thread has warmed the cockles of my heart.


Re: Andrew Wakefield
"In February 2010, the General Medical Council in the U.K. recommended that Wakefield be stripped of his license to practice medicine in the U.K. because of scientific misconduct related to his infamous 1998 case series published in The Lancet, even going so far as to refer to him as irresponsible and dishonest, and in May 2010 he was. This case series, thanks to Wakefield’s scientific incompetence and fraud, coupled with his flair for self-promotion and enabled by the sensationalistic credulity of the British press, ignited a scare about the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine in which, afraid that the MMR vaccine causes autism, parents in the U.K. eschewed vaccinating their children in droves. As a result, vaccination rates plummeted far below the level necessary for herd immunity, with the entirely predictable result of massive measles outbreaks in the U.K. Measles, which as of the mid-1990s had been declared under control by British and European health authorities, came roaring back to the point where in 2008 it was declared once again endemic in the British Isles. In a mere decade and a half, several decades of progress in controlling this scourge had been unravelled like a thread hanging off a cheap dress, all thanks to Andrew Wakefield and scandal mongers in the British press."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/piltdown-medicine-and-andrew-wakefields-mmr-vaccine-fraud/


Re: Gardasil and HPV.
"Infection with HPV is a common problem, infecting 79% of the population over their lifetime, and holding the dubious honor of being the most common sexually transmitted disease. In addition to genital warts, HPV infection has been clearly shown to be responsible for a large percentage of cancers in areas that contract HPV, including the vulva, vagina, and penis (40%), anus (90%), and oropharynx (12%), but the most common site of HPV-caused cancer is the cervix. Cervical cancer is diagnosed in 7.9/100,000 women per year, amounting to approximately 11,000 cases in 2008 and 3900 deaths in the US. Worldwide, the WHO estimates 500,000 cases of cervical cancer and 260,000 related deaths."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/gardasil-safety-revisited/


Re: Pertussis.

"What started as a blocked nose escalated into our worst nightmare. From 11 days old, Dana became more unsettled at night and started to cough from three weeks of age. After she tested positive for Pertussis, we went straight to the hospital.
However, we were not alarmed because we thought antibiotics could treat it. Wrong. The antibiotics only stop you infecting others. There is no treatment to cure Whooping Cough and we had to watch in horror as the Pertussis took its course."
http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html


Re: Influenza.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/even-in-2014-influenza-kills/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/flu-vaccine-efficacy/


Re: Aluminum.
"5. Could you please provide scientific justification as to how injecting a human being with a confirmed neurotoxin is beneficial to human health and prevents disease?

I presume the issue is mercury. Maybe aluminum. The latter is not in most vaccines, although as been discussed at length on this blog, the amount of mercury and aluminum found in vaccines is minimal and, at the dosing and formulation, has never been demonstrated to cause neurotoxicity from vaccines. Of course, I am old school and think there is a dose response effect of drugs, and that a greater amount leads to a greater response. Most naturopaths receive extensive training in homeopathy, where the less the amount, the greater the response. So I would presume arguments based on chemistry would have little meaning to an ND, although I would not want my appletini made by a practitioner of homeopathy.

Of course, it is not the ‘neurotoxin’ that is being used to prevent disease, but the antigens of the potential infection. That is assuming that the author of the nine questions does not consider the antigens to be neurotoxins, and to judge from his understanding of disease later in the post, I am not so certain he warrants the benefit of the doubt.

Could you please provide scientific justification as to how applying naturopathy to a human being is beneficial to human health and prevents disease?

6. Can you provide a risk/benefit profile on how the benefits of injecting a known neurotoxin exceeds its risks to human health for the intended goal of preventing disease?

Since there is no longer mercury in most vaccines, I will assume, for the sake of argument, he is referring to aluminum. Risk from aluminum in the H. influenza type b vaccine, where aluminium is used as a adjuvant: zero.

The benefit from the vaccine:

“From eight trials, the protective efficacy of the Hib conjugate vaccine was 84% (OR 0.16; 95%CI 0.08-0.30) against invasive Hib disease, 75% (OR 0.25; 95%CI 0.08-0.84) against meningitis, and 69% (OR 0.31; 95%CI 0.10-0.97) against pneumonia. Serious adverse events were rare.”

Seems a good trade off. No risk from aluminum, significant decrease in morbidity and mortality from disease."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nine-questions-nine-answers/


Re: Pristine guts.
"Your colon is a rich, complicated ecosystem. Each and everyone of you has a metaphorical rainforest in your colon. Your colon is a complex environment containing hundreds of species of bacteria, 99.9% of which are anaerobes (bacteria that are killed by oxygen). Each gram (2) of stool, and a gram is not all that heavy, has 10^11 anaerobes. That is one hundred billion organism per gram of poo. This may surprise you, but your colon is not a particularly hospitable place, and there is not a lot of oxygen there. As a result, organisms that thrive in an oxygen low or deficient place, anaerobes and microaerophilic organisms, predominate in your colon. The predominant anaerobes are bacteroides species. Aerobes, ie oxygen requiring organisms like E. coli, make up only 0.1% of your stool, or 10^5 to 10^7 per gram of stool. Thats 10 thousand to ten million aerobes per gram."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/probiotics/

We are awash in bacteria, many of them fecal.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/triskaidekaphobia-times-two/

 

[ksinger]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

[quote="ksinger|1395097363|

And there you have it folks! (banging head on desk)

The best flu vaccine on the market today... [/quote]

No, not that. I just do it to dislodge the chunks of stupid from my eyes when it gets too deep.

 

[justginger]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

If I had the time, and no back-to-back hematology and cytology lectures and labs today, I would explain the immunological process of vaccinations in detail - for DF, if no one else. It is clear that some (more like 'many' in the population at large) do not have a working understanding of the mechanisms of vaccinations, how they're made, what they're composed of, or what they serve to do in bolstering your own natural immune defenses. I think it is very important that all who engage in a debate or discussion have a strong understanding of the topic at hand. I'd love to see all expectant parents have a 2 week immunology course, just to cover the very basics, before deciding to immunise or not.

Msop, perhaps you have the time?

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

Since we seem to be going a bit sideways to influenza, I would HIGHLY suggest "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History", by John M. Barry. I found it a riveting read. It is an engrossing combination of history and science. It is written for the layperson, but is not dumbed down in any way, and contains an excellent explanation of how influenza mutates over time.

I have heard of this -- will read it! Thanks for posting!!

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

If I had the time, and no back-to-back hematology and cytology lectures and labs today, I would explain the immunological process of vaccinations in detail - for DF, if no one else. It is clear that some (more like 'many' in the population at large) do not have a working understanding of the mechanisms of vaccinations, how they're made, what they're composed of, or what they serve to do in bolstering your own natural immune defenses. I think it is very important that all who engage in a debate or discussion have a strong understanding of the topic at hand. I'd love to see all expectant parents have a 2 week immunology course, just to cover the very basics, before deciding to immunise or not.

Msop, perhaps you have the time?

I'm actually on the road right now, but if I have time tonight, I'll post!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

If I had the time, and no back-to-back hematology and cytology lectures and labs today, I would explain the immunological process of vaccinations in detail - for DF, if no one else. It is clear that some (more like 'many' in the population at large) do not have a working understanding of the mechanisms of vaccinations, how they're made, what they're composed of, or what they serve to do in bolstering your own natural immune defenses. I think it is very important that all who engage in a debate or discussion have a strong understanding of the topic at hand. I'd love to see all expectant parents have a 2 week immunology course, just to cover the very basics, before deciding to immunise or not.

The bottom line is...if you believe vaccinations will prevent you from catching diseases then by all means DO IT!, and don't let any one convince you not to.

 

[kenny]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

The bottom line is...if you believe vaccinations will prevent you from catching diseases then by all means DO IT!, and don't let any one convince you not to.

No.

The bottom line is, the UN-vaccinated are walking virus factories that put us all at risk, and welcomes the viruses to breed and mutate instead of going extinct.

This is not an individual rights thing.
It's a collective responsibility thing.

You don't have the freedom or the right to run red lights either.
The greater good …….

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

The bottom line is...if you believe vaccinations will prevent you from catching diseases then by all means DO IT!, and don't let any one convince you not to.

No.

The bottom line is, the UN-vaccinated are walking virus factories that put us all at risk, and welcomes the viruses to breed and mutate instead of going extinct.

This is not an individual rights thing.
It's a collective responsibility thing.

You don't have the freedom or the right to run red lights either.
The greater good …….

Kenny you need to buy one of these... ..

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00153413/k-G5253105?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gclid=CJ2s2Knumr0CFUVgMgodYlEAuQ

btw; you have a better chance of dying from breathing the air in L.A. then to catch some kind of diseases.

 

[Circe]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

I realize this is inappropriate, but it's been a long day, and I'm punchy.

An I the only one who finds herself reading the title of this thread in the voice of Justin Timberlake?

 

[MollyMalone]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

I am grateful to all who have given PSAs.

A friend of mine was exposed to rubella in the early stage of her pregnancy (she and her husband were recently married, had not planned to have a child just yet, so she had not verified her immunity status prior to becoming pregnant). The child was born with grossly severe defects of all kinds. Amazingly enough, she is still alive 20 years later, but those 20 years have included countless surgeries and hospitalizations; around-the-clock skilled care & costly, special equipment for her times at home ... and much stress and heartache.

 

[distracts]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

With Gardasil, I was less worried about cervical cancer than genital warts. Which just seem... no. Gross. No, thank you, please stick me with needles instead. Of course, given my number of sexual partners (extremely limited!) and safety (very safe! I was raised in a family of public health doctors!) the chance of getting them has always been very low, but still. It's not cervical cancer that gave me nightmares. Genital warts are nightmare material though. nightmares nightmares nightmares.

 

[TooPatient]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

Has anyone ever seen Idiocracy? We're not that far off!

Yes and yes!

So sad to see people actually behaving that way

 

[TooPatient]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

I'd love to know more about vaccines!

MSOP or Ginger (or others!), the data you have been sharing is fascinating. I'd read the information about the vaccines "A" got recently and was shocked that the vaccine specified that it was non-mercury. It hadn't occurred to me that there actually could be anything like that in the vaccines. Seeing the actual contents compared to every day items is great! I'd been planning to research exactly that because I'm so careful to avoid products with that sort of thing.

I feel very strongly that we can't have vaccines made mandatory by law without jeopardizing our overall freedoms (slippery slope). BUT we NEED to have actual INFORMATION out there for everyone. I think the majority of anti-vax people would decide it was safe if the actual FACTS were made common. As it is, you have to weed through the garbled rumors and anxieties that have little to no actual basis in reality.

Getting boosters is something I didn't know about until reading about it on PS awhile ago! (some thread about shingles I think...)
That is just exactly the sort of thing that people should be told about! Here I've been walking around thinking I was protected because I was vaccinated once.



Oh -- to make sure I'm not misunderstood:
I am not against vaccines.
"A" has had every last vaccine recommended by her dr (including the HPV series)
I was vaccinated as a kid and (thanks to PS!) now know to have the dr check to see if I need boosters.
I simply think that having access to actual facts is important.

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

Yes have coodys, so explain to me why some people whom had gotten the flu shot still catch the flu?.. obviously it does not work for every body.

I known people whom had gotten their flu shot on time and yet they still caught the flu. I am still amazed at those who insist that the flu vaccine will prevent them from catching the flu.

It's late and I'm just now seeing this from you, DF... I wanted you to understand some important facts in regards to the flu vaccine. I know it can be difficult to wrap your head around everything that has been said, so I will try to briefly and simply explain a few of the things that seem to cause the most confusion.

First of all... there is no annual set date for the start of flu season, so to say someone got it "on time" is somewhat subjective, as it is projected from year to year, and times may vary. As a general rule, flu usually peaks in January to February, but it could start as late as May. The point I'm making is that you should get the flu shot as soon as it is available in your area. Pharmacies in my area (AL) began advertising their availability this past year by September.

So, you may be wondering why they'd wanna get them out so early, since Dec-Jan-Feb is the typical time for flu... The reason is because the vaccine doesn't work instantaneously. It takes about two weeks after vaccination for antibodies to develop in the body and provide protection against the flu virus. During this time, you are still at risk for getting the flu. That's why it's better to get vaccinated early in the fall, before the flu season really gets under way.

Given the benefit of the doubt, the person you know may have indeed gotten his shot as soon as they were available in his area, so there are three likely ways he contracted flu:

(1) he had already been exposed to the flu virus prior to getting vaccinated (most likely)
(2) he was exposed to the flu during the 2 week period after vaccination, during which the body is building antibodies
(3) he was exposed to a strain of flu not covered in the vaccine -- the CDC studies patterns of the flu strains to predict which ones will be going around each year. Trivalent flu vaccines cover three strains (2 flu Type A and 1 Type B), while quadrivalent vaccines cover 4 strains (2 Type A and 2 strains of Type B).

I'm sure there are people who insist that the flu vaccine will prevent them from contracting flu, however they would be incorrect. There is never a guarantee (and never has been), but the flu vaccine really is the best protection against the the flu. If you get the flu vaccine, you are over 50% less likely to need treatment for the flu. Furthermore, getting the vaccine has been shown to offer substantial other benefits including reducing illness and the need for antibiotics, hospitalization, and deaths. It also lessens time lost from work.

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

This thread has warmed the cockles of my heart.


Re: Andrew Wakefield
"In February 2010, the General Medical Council in the U.K. recommended that Wakefield be stripped of his license to practice medicine in the U.K. because of scientific misconduct related to his infamous 1998 case series published in The Lancet, even going so far as to refer to him as irresponsible and dishonest, and in May 2010 he was. This case series, thanks to Wakefield’s scientific incompetence and fraud, coupled with his flair for self-promotion and enabled by the sensationalistic credulity of the British press, ignited a scare about the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine in which, afraid that the MMR vaccine causes autism, parents in the U.K. eschewed vaccinating their children in droves. As a result, vaccination rates plummeted far below the level necessary for herd immunity, with the entirely predictable result of massive measles outbreaks in the U.K. Measles, which as of the mid-1990s had been declared under control by British and European health authorities, came roaring back to the point where in 2008 it was declared once again endemic in the British Isles. In a mere decade and a half, several decades of progress in controlling this scourge had been unravelled like a thread hanging off a cheap dress, all thanks to Andrew Wakefield and scandal mongers in the British press."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/piltdown-medicine-and-andrew-wakefields-mmr-vaccine-fraud/


Re: Gardasil and HPV.
"Infection with HPV is a common problem, infecting 79% of the population over their lifetime, and holding the dubious honor of being the most common sexually transmitted disease. In addition to genital warts, HPV infection has been clearly shown to be responsible for a large percentage of cancers in areas that contract HPV, including the vulva, vagina, and penis (40%), anus (90%), and oropharynx (12%), but the most common site of HPV-caused cancer is the cervix. Cervical cancer is diagnosed in 7.9/100,000 women per year, amounting to approximately 11,000 cases in 2008 and 3900 deaths in the US. Worldwide, the WHO estimates 500,000 cases of cervical cancer and 260,000 related deaths."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/gardasil-safety-revisited/


Re: Pertussis.

"What started as a blocked nose escalated into our worst nightmare. From 11 days old, Dana became more unsettled at night and started to cough from three weeks of age. After she tested positive for Pertussis, we went straight to the hospital.
However, we were not alarmed because we thought antibiotics could treat it. Wrong. The antibiotics only stop you infecting others. There is no treatment to cure Whooping Cough and we had to watch in horror as the Pertussis took its course."
http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html


Re: Influenza.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/even-in-2014-influenza-kills/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/flu-vaccine-efficacy/


Re: Aluminum.
"5. Could you please provide scientific justification as to how injecting a human being with a confirmed neurotoxin is beneficial to human health and prevents disease?

I presume the issue is mercury. Maybe aluminum. The latter is not in most vaccines, although as been discussed at length on this blog, the amount of mercury and aluminum found in vaccines is minimal and, at the dosing and formulation, has never been demonstrated to cause neurotoxicity from vaccines. Of course, I am old school and think there is a dose response effect of drugs, and that a greater amount leads to a greater response. Most naturopaths receive extensive training in homeopathy, where the less the amount, the greater the response. So I would presume arguments based on chemistry would have little meaning to an ND, although I would not want my appletini made by a practitioner of homeopathy.

Of course, it is not the ‘neurotoxin’ that is being used to prevent disease, but the antigens of the potential infection. That is assuming that the author of the nine questions does not consider the antigens to be neurotoxins, and to judge from his understanding of disease later in the post, I am not so certain he warrants the benefit of the doubt.

Could you please provide scientific justification as to how applying naturopathy to a human being is beneficial to human health and prevents disease?

6. Can you provide a risk/benefit profile on how the benefits of injecting a known neurotoxin exceeds its risks to human health for the intended goal of preventing disease?

Since there is no longer mercury in most vaccines, I will assume, for the sake of argument, he is referring to aluminum. Risk from aluminum in the H. influenza type b vaccine, where aluminium is used as a adjuvant: zero.

The benefit from the vaccine:

“From eight trials, the protective efficacy of the Hib conjugate vaccine was 84% (OR 0.16; 95%CI 0.08-0.30) against invasive Hib disease, 75% (OR 0.25; 95%CI 0.08-0.84) against meningitis, and 69% (OR 0.31; 95%CI 0.10-0.97) against pneumonia. Serious adverse events were rare.”

Seems a good trade off. No risk from aluminum, significant decrease in morbidity and mortality from disease."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nine-questions-nine-answers/


Re: Pristine guts.
"Your colon is a rich, complicated ecosystem. Each and everyone of you has a metaphorical rainforest in your colon. Your colon is a complex environment containing hundreds of species of bacteria, 99.9% of which are anaerobes (bacteria that are killed by oxygen). Each gram (2) of stool, and a gram is not all that heavy, has 10^11 anaerobes. That is one hundred billion organism per gram of poo. This may surprise you, but your colon is not a particularly hospitable place, and there is not a lot of oxygen there. As a result, organisms that thrive in an oxygen low or deficient place, anaerobes and microaerophilic organisms, predominate in your colon. The predominant anaerobes are bacteroides species. Aerobes, ie oxygen requiring organisms like E. coli, make up only 0.1% of your stool, or 10^5 to 10^7 per gram of stool. Thats 10 thousand to ten million aerobes per gram."
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/probiotics/

We are awash in bacteria, many of them fecal.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/triskaidekaphobia-times-two/

Thanks for posting this, JaneSmith.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

msop, thanks for the information. I'll get vaccinated this fall and if I catch the flu then I can blame you for breaking my 25 yr winning streak...

 

[kenny]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

Vaccinations are all about getting much better odds, not guarantees.

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

If I had the time, and no back-to-back hematology and cytology lectures and labs today, I would explain the immunological process of vaccinations in detail - for DF, if no one else. It is clear that some (more like 'many' in the population at large) do not have a working understanding of the mechanisms of vaccinations, how they're made, what they're composed of, or what they serve to do in bolstering your own natural immune defenses. I think it is very important that all who engage in a debate or discussion have a strong understanding of the topic at hand. I'd love to see all expectant parents have a 2 week immunology course, just to cover the very basics, before deciding to immunise or not.

Msop, perhaps you have the time?

Ok, so this isn't what I'd planned to do, but I felt like it would suffice for all intents and purposes of this thread.

I have posted a link from cdc.gov to help explain the way vaccinations work. Although this doesn't go into acute detail, it is very concise and easy for anyone to understand, as it is written in lay terms. ----->

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/pat...downloads/vacsafe-understand-color-office.pdf

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

Vaccinations are all about getting much better odds, not guarantees.

That's right, kenny... better to have made an effort and "fail" than to have never made an effort at all.

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

msop, thanks for the information. I'll get vaccinated this fall and if I catch the flu then I can blame you for breaking my 25 yr winning streak...

Great! Feel free to blame me all you'd like!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

msop, thanks for the information. I'll get vaccinated this fall and if I catch the flu then I can blame you for breaking my 25 yr winning streak...

Great! Feel free to blame me all you'd like!

And if I die from the flu...I ain't gonna speak to you again!

 

[msop04]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

msop, thanks for the information. I'll get vaccinated this fall and if I catch the flu then I can blame you for breaking my 25 yr winning streak...

Great! Feel free to blame me all you'd like!

And if I die from the flu...I ain't gonna speak to you again!

There was never a truer statement than this! LOL

 

[ksinger]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

I'd love to know more about vaccines!

MSOP or Ginger (or others!), the data you have been sharing is fascinating. I'd read the information about the vaccines "A" got recently and was shocked that the vaccine specified that it was non-mercury. It hadn't occurred to me that there actually could be anything like that in the vaccines. Seeing the actual contents compared to every day items is great! I'd been planning to research exactly that because I'm so careful to avoid products with that sort of thing.

I feel very strongly that we can't have vaccines made mandatory by law without jeopardizing our overall freedoms (slippery slope). BUT we NEED to have actual INFORMATION out there for everyone. I think the majority of anti-vax people would decide it was safe if the actual FACTS were made common. As it is, you have to weed through the garbled rumors and anxieties that have little to no actual basis in reality.

Getting boosters is something I didn't know about until reading about it on PS awhile ago! (some thread about shingles I think...)
That is just exactly the sort of thing that people should be told about! Here I've been walking around thinking I was protected because I was vaccinated once.

Oh -- to make sure I'm not misunderstood:
I am not against vaccines.
"A" has had every last vaccine recommended by her dr (including the HPV series)
I was vaccinated as a kid and (thanks to PS!) now know to have the dr check to see if I need boosters.
I simply think that having access to actual facts is important.

Well, in the past at various points, there has been mandatory vaccination, even in the US. I personally don't believe it would be a slippery slope, but we Americans pretty often give more weight to theoretical freedoms than we do common sense, and are willing to tolerate quite a lot of mayhem to keep them. Just look at guns in this country.

I think there should be a full-on assault of public censure and denial of government service - like public schooling - to the children of parents who refuse to vaccinate, and a reduction of the exemptions currently available in too many states. Of course that approach would encounter some problems since we are as a country, systematically dismantling the public schools, thus reducing the primary means by which vaccination was "encouraged". I would also think that public shaming and shunning of the parents by other parents would be effective, except that most people have lost their ability to even feel a twitch of shame anymore.

I also think the medical community needs to develop PSAs and campaigns to encourage adults to stay up on their boosters, something which many here (including me) have indicated that no doctor in their adult life has ever suggested or even asked about.

As for information, we are drowning in information. What we are lacking is discernment. And worse, as some here have indicated, they've encountered the breathtakingly cynical sentiment that some people understand quite well that vaccine prevents illness, they are just not willing to take that risk for THEIR children but are openly content to coast on the herd immunity conferred by others. Personally, at that point I'd be tempted to slap the crap out of the person who said something like that.

So, most of us here would point an anti-vaxer to a CDC type site, or some other very reputable source, but even if they read it, they would not believe it, because the issue is not, nor has ever been, lack of information, since the primary drivers of this anti-vax movement are well-educated and well-heeled. It is something else entirely, and it is akin to science denialism.

I was reading a blog post by an doctor with a blog, and in one of his posts was this:

"A 2010 report by the National Committee for Quality Assurance found a troubling and disturbing trend. Children enrolled in commercial health insurance plans, private insurance, had decreasing vaccination rates compared to those public insurance plans like Medicaid. Due to opinions of celebrities about the false link between autism and vaccinations, parents in the former group were delaying or avoiding vaccinations. There is no link. In 2011, the original research study that had hinted a link between autism and vaccinations was labeled as completely fraudulent. Unfortunately, the damage has already been done. The report noted that:

“If this downward trend in vaccination rates in commercial plans persists, an unusual phenomenon may occur. The comparatively well-educated or “high-information” members more typical of commercial plans may endanger their children’s health—and the public’s health—because of their greater access to and overvaluing of misinformation. Medicaid patients may become healthier.”

So much for education and information, huh?

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

I'd love to know more about vaccines!

MSOP or Ginger (or others!), the data you have been sharing is fascinating. I'd read the information about the vaccines "A" got recently and was shocked that the vaccine specified that it was non-mercury. It hadn't occurred to me that there actually could be anything like that in the vaccines. Seeing the actual contents compared to every day items is great! I'd been planning to research exactly that because I'm so careful to avoid products with that sort of thing.

I feel very strongly that we can't have vaccines made mandatory by law without jeopardizing our overall freedoms (slippery slope). BUT we NEED to have actual INFORMATION out there for everyone. I think the majority of anti-vax people would decide it was safe if the actual FACTS were made common. As it is, you have to weed through the garbled rumors and anxieties that have little to no actual basis in reality.

Getting boosters is something I didn't know about until reading about it on PS awhile ago! (some thread about shingles I think...)
That is just exactly the sort of thing that people should be told about! Here I've been walking around thinking I was protected because I was vaccinated once.



Oh -- to make sure I'm not misunderstood:
I am not against vaccines.
"A" has had every last vaccine recommended by her dr (including the HPV series)
I was vaccinated as a kid and (thanks to PS!) now know to have the dr check to see if I need boosters.
I simply think that having access to actual facts is important.

There is plenty of science-based information available on the web. Try the CDC site. It's not like the info is hidden, it's freely available.

Anti-vaxers do not value science if it shows their claims to be wrong, and tout plenty of shoddy science that proves them right. Websites like Mercola and Natural News excel at this. The trouble with their "information" is that you need to have some idea of what a well designed study is, and a grasp of basic science to be able to figure out if they are even asking the right questions, and if they are ignoring prior probability. So, some scientific literacy. And basic statistics. And knowledge of cognitive biases.
Anti-vaxers are well aware that the majority of the general public are not able to discern shoddy studies, pseudoscience and sciencey-sounding articles from genuine science. They crave the imprimatur of science for their ideology.

Many educated and well meaning parents will look online for vaccination info and these crank sites are what come up first. Parents are scared into thinking that vaccinations are the boogeyman when it is the infections they should fear.
As an aside, I find it very interesting that a lot of naturopaths will dissuade parents from vaccinating, and deride conventional vaccination, only to turn around and sell those parents a 'natural' or homeopathic vaccination. All profit to the naturopath, no immunity for the poor baby.

Many people also distrust pharmaceutical companies (sometimes rightly so), and/or distrust modern medicine, and/or simply do not understand that science is the best tool we have for finding out about the natural world.
If someone thinks that science is simply another 'way of knowing', that it is on equal footing with intuition or revelation, then all the science-based evidence under the sun is not going to convince them. We may as well start irrigating the crops with Brawndo.





Here is an interesting survey about parents and vaccinations.

"Women Thinking Inc and the James Randi Educational Foundation, as part of the Hug Me! I’m Vaccinated campaign, joined forces to focus on the best way to communicate a vaccine positive message. At baby and child expos, parents were given a marketing research survey about vaccination intentions for their children, their general knowledge of vaccine safety, and how well they respond to various persuasive messages for and against immunizations. Furthermore, we determined which sources are most likely to influence their vaccination decisions."
http://wy3mg1xgify37n21x223cw7xl1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Vax_Survey_Report22.pdf

 

[ksinger]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

I'd love to know more about vaccines!

MSOP or Ginger (or others!), the data you have been sharing is fascinating. I'd read the information about the vaccines "A" got recently and was shocked that the vaccine specified that it was non-mercury. It hadn't occurred to me that there actually could be anything like that in the vaccines. Seeing the actual contents compared to every day items is great! I'd been planning to research exactly that because I'm so careful to avoid products with that sort of thing.

I feel very strongly that we can't have vaccines made mandatory by law without jeopardizing our overall freedoms (slippery slope). BUT we NEED to have actual INFORMATION out there for everyone. I think the majority of anti-vax people would decide it was safe if the actual FACTS were made common. As it is, you have to weed through the garbled rumors and anxieties that have little to no actual basis in reality.

Getting boosters is something I didn't know about until reading about it on PS awhile ago! (some thread about shingles I think...)
That is just exactly the sort of thing that people should be told about! Here I've been walking around thinking I was protected because I was vaccinated once.



Oh -- to make sure I'm not misunderstood:
I am not against vaccines.
"A" has had every last vaccine recommended by her dr (including the HPV series)
I was vaccinated as a kid and (thanks to PS!) now know to have the dr check to see if I need boosters.
I simply think that having access to actual facts is important.

There is plenty of science-based information available on the web. Try the CDC site. It's not like the info is hidden, it's freely available.

Anti-vaxers do not value science if it shows their claims to be wrong, and tout plenty of shoddy science that proves them right. Websites like Mercola and Natural News excel at this. The trouble with their "information" is that you need to have some idea of what a well designed study is, and a grasp of basic science to be able to figure out if they are even asking the right questions, and if they are ignoring prior probability. So, some scientific literacy. And basic statistics. And knowledge of cognitive biases.
Anti-vaxers are well aware that the majority of the general public are not able to discern shoddy studies, pseudoscience and sciencey-sounding articles from genuine science. They crave the imprimatur of science for their ideology.

Many educated and well meaning parents will look online for vaccination info and these crank sites are what come up first. Parents are scared into thinking that vaccinations are the boogeyman when it is the infections they should fear.
As an aside, I find it very interesting that a lot of naturopaths will dissuade parents from vaccinating, and deride conventional vaccination, only to turn around and sell those parents a 'natural' or homeopathic vaccination. All profit to the naturopath, no immunity for the poor baby.

Many people also distrust pharmaceutical companies (sometimes rightly so), and/or distrust modern medicine, and/or simply do not understand that science is the best tool we have for finding out about the natural world.
If someone thinks that science is simply another 'way of knowing', that it is on equal footing with intuition or revelation, then all the science-based evidence under the sun is not going to convince them. We may as well start irrigating the crops with Brawndo.





Here is an interesting survey about parents and vaccinations.

"Women Thinking Inc and the James Randi Educational Foundation, as part of the Hug Me! I’m Vaccinated campaign, joined forces to focus on the best way to communicate a vaccine positive message. At baby and child expos, parents were given a marketing research survey about vaccination intentions for their children, their general knowledge of vaccine safety, and how well they respond to various persuasive messages for and against immunizations. Furthermore, we determined which sources are most likely to influence their vaccination decisions."
http://wy3mg1xgify37n21x223cw7xl1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Vax_Survey_Report22.pdf

Excellent response and link. I did not have time to read the whole thing as it is long, but did manage the conclusions, which pretty much confirm that when it comes to being anti-vax, emotions are trumping reason. And points out how good it is that I didn't go into medicine, since my response (above) was to be moved to slap someone when patience and persistence is required. I become grumpier by the day it seems.

I would also add, a knowledge of history wouldn't be bad either. If possible, with PICTURES. If the anti-vax forces are trotting forth scary immunization stories, medical history and photos, could trot out far worse and far more of the diseases that the vaccines were designed to lessen. I remember a girl I used to work with - 11 years my junior. We were having a discussion one day, and she expressed the sentiment, "I don't understand the big deal, I mean smallpox is just another type of chickenpox" I nearly fell over. Going to the internet and showing her a few pictures of smallpox was worth a thousand studies.

 

[justginger]

Re: Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in N

I've just received my titre results for checking my immunity levels, for a point of reference for those who didn't know boosters were necessary.

I was on the normal (old) vax schedule in the States, in which I had all of my shots before starting kindergarten, and then received 10 year boosters at 15-16. I also had my first round of Hep B injections at 18.

My DTP booster was deemed necessary, without them even bothering to do a titre. Their rule of thumb was 4 years -- if you had it more than 4 years ago, the Pertussis portion of the vax was likely null and void. So if you can't remember the last time you got a DTP, you need one.

Next comes Mumps, Measles, and Rubella. My titre levels for both measles and mumps were not provided. The pathology reports just state that IgG (a particular type of antibody) was detected, and therefore the results are consistent with immunity. My titre level for Rubella was 22 IU/mL. When I was last tested, in 2006, it was 19 IU/mL, so I am pleasantly surprised to see that it has gone up. Levels of 10-30 generally provide you with immunity, but in the case you were trying to conceive, it would not be enough to protect your child and you would require a booster. I am getting to that age of considering kids, so I will be electing for a booster anyway, to get my rubella antibodies raised. Another student who was on the same vax schedule as me had a Rubella of 112 IU/mL, and sufficient mumps IgG, but her measles was insufficient. So two people, same time since vaccination, and completely different titres.

My Hep B, which I had 12 years ago now, was an astoundingly high 736 IU/mL (with >100 IU/mL conveying immunity). My immune system must have really loved that one, and is hanging on to it for some time. No booster necessary, and likely not necessary for a good amount of time. My classmate, vaccinated 13 years ago, had a reading somewhere in the mid-70s. So she has to have that one again as well.

So -- how each person retains the B plasma cells necessary to re-recognize antigens on a particular pathogen is very individual. You may have had your injections at the same time as someone else, but your immune systems have processed them completely differently. It's just an easy blood test to get checked -- they draw a vial of blood (or two), and set up some immunological reactions to see if you're capable of recognizing the various pathogens and producing appropriate antibodies. Then you know if you're protected, you know you're not capable of carrying and passing along illnesses to the weak of society, and you can avoid having unnecessary boosters in the case you ARE holding tight to those plasma cells.