The deadline has come and gone

[KatM]

Date: 3/6/2009 8:51:10 AM
Author: Starset Princess
He said, Did I say that on the way home in the car? Yes.

That makes me suspicious. Had you metioned anything prior to that about him saying it in the car? If not, it sounds like he may have just revealed that he is trying to throw you off.

If that''s not it and it''s just something he said when he was drunk, then I''m really sorry. At least you''ll know soon.

Good luck!

 

[choro72]

Crossing my fingers for you!

 

[gwendolyn]

Hoping you have some good news, Starset!

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 3/7/2009 3:05:52 AM
Author: gwendolyn
Hoping you have some good news, Starset!

Me too!!!!!

 

[LaraOnline]

I am on tenterhooks for you SP! I hope hope hope you get all you need and want from him!

 

[Erin]

So after dinner we drove home to his house and I went in and grabbed my gym clothes for the next morning, gave him a half hearted kiss and told him thanks for dinner, and then drove home.

His official stance is that he doesn''t want more children but would reconsider if it meant losing me. Which is EXACTLY where we left things one year ago.

My mind is racing because if I don''t have a child will I grow to resent him and vice versa? I''ll be 34 this summer. Do I really want to be going to high school basketball games at the age of 52? Would his exwife and children ever accept this new family? Can I find someone else who wants the same things as me who has never been married and doesn''t have kids but wants them? I assure you there is no such man in this town of 5,000 but this is where my job is that I love.

This was not what I was hoping for but I still left room to anticipate this decision. I just couldn''t stay at his house last night. Neither of us called or texted. I''m going to go work out now, but I thought I''d come back and take my name off the list.

Thanks for all the dust.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Starset, I am so, so sorry. I completely understand how difficult this is--to walk away from a man you love very, very much because you realize that love is not enough is probably one of the hardest things a woman can do. I also know how difficult it is to try to make the decision to stay or leave when the man is doing what you ask in order to keep you. The first time D proposed (before he was ready) he told me he would marry because the alternative was losing me. Marriage became the minimum to keep me and he was willing to do it, but I knew that it would not work if he did not embrace it and really WANT it. I felt guilty for many weeks after leaving despite knowing in my gut that it was right. I still have a very soft spot for women who have to face it. I know you will make the best decision for YOU and we are all here if you need somebody to lean on. Again, I am very sorry.

On a side note, I feel like the fact that he needed an extra 72 hours to tell you something he has been telling you all along is very frustrating. I have no doubt that at this point you are so drained you question if you have anything left to give the relationship.

 

[neatfreak]

Oh Starset-I am so so sorry we all got your hopes up. I really am fairly speechless here-he needed 72 more hours to tell you nothing new? I know you love this man so much, but at the same time it just doesn''t sound like you want the same things.

And as a new mom I have to say having children is the biggest joy I have ever had in my life (don''t tell hubby that!), but really, don''t deprive yourself of that if you want it.

And I, like NEL, think that sometimes they need to lose you to figure out what they really want.

We are all here for you if you want to chat. Huge hugs!

 

[icekid]

Date: 3/7/2009 8:44:31 AM
Author: neatfreak
Oh Starset-I am so so sorry we all got your hopes up. I really am fairly speechless here-he needed 72 more hours to tell you nothing new? I know you love this man so much, but at the same time it just doesn''t sound like you want the same things.

Grr.. this really pisses me off! I''m so sorry this isn''t working out the way that you were hoping. But, I agree with the wise NEL and neatfreak. You want different things. You want a baby. I suspect you WILL resent him if it means not having the family that you have wanted for so long. It sounds like you realize that too.

HUGS... we are here for you!

 

[Erin]

Thanks girls. This is where it gets tricky. You see, I''m not one of those women who played with dolls and picked out names or even babysat to make money. I just thought that''s what I''m supposed to do.Sometimes I hear a Mom and kid in the bathroom at a restaurant and I think, God they go everywhere with you and they can''t do anything by themselves. I like my freedom. Then I see how cute they are and the joy it seems to bring to care for them.

I guess I never thought about NOT having them until my boyfriend. When considered, maybe I only think I want one because I''m supposed to. But then when I see a pregnant woman I am jealous. Jealous of others who are toting their kids to the grocery store. I don''t know.

Secretly, I would consider not having kids if it meant losing him.

 

[iheartscience]

I'm sorry to hear this.

 

[LaraOnline]

SP, I feel just absolutely rotten for you. Sending PS vibes!!!

Regarding the kid thing, I also was NOT a 'maternal type since high-school' girl, I just didn't get the magic until gradually I realised that I NEEDED to have a baby. Yes, I got the instinct to PUSH and that was about how primitive and basic it was, too. Like finally needing to eat a meal that has been post-poned or even denied you, all your life.

So don't feel bad or feel you need to justify the instinct to have a child. Personally (and this is a position I came to through my life experiences) I feel that if you are in a long-term relationship you pretty much have a biological 'right' to consider having a child. Your body, your mind and your circumstances are in the position to not only do so, but instinctively, subconsciously, to almost expect so. It is unfair that men, using the social pressure of mainstream acceptance of contraception technology, can deny women a child or children when week after week, month after month, the whole body (and relationship) is going through the motions of striving to conceive one.

unfair.

But.

You are not at that point of 'need', and may well never be there. I'm the sensitive type, inclined to dwell.

The fact that you are secretly exploring the opportunity to continue the relationship and forget children tells me that perhaps you could cope with continuing on with this man, and seeing what happens.

Here's my witchiest advice: after a year or so (insert arbitrary time frame that seems suitable to you here), I would switch down to a lesser strength contraceptive method. Sorry, don't flame me!

We all know what causes babies, even your love. He is leaning on you, and you can go his way. But right action is not always black and white, be kind to yourself and take one day at a time.

By the time I met my husband I actually told him (briefly and lightly) I was not interested in using any (artificial) contraception whatsoever! And I stuck to that. I thought that would scare him off, and was desperate enough to feel I didn't care too much about the risk regardless of what happened to me / us... but we just got engaged, real quick! So, if you love him, perhaps the way to go is don't harp on, expecting him to have a great detailed answer for every possibility in life, and just see what happens.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 3/7/2009 9:39:06 AM
Author: Starset Princess

Secretly, I would consider not having kids if it meant losing him.

Is this because you genuinely do not want to have children (or even the option of having them) or because you are afraid to lose him, afraid that you will not find somebody as great as him, afraid there isn''t a better match, etc.?

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 3/7/2009 7:56:18 AM
Author: Starset Princess
So after dinner we drove home to his house and I went in and grabbed my gym clothes for the next morning, gave him a half hearted kiss and told him thanks for dinner, and then drove home.

His official stance is that he doesn''t want more children but would reconsider if it meant losing me. Which is EXACTLY where we left things one year ago.

My mind is racing because if I don''t have a child will I grow to resent him and vice versa? I''ll be 34 this summer. Do I really want to be going to high school basketball games at the age of 52? Would his exwife and children ever accept this new family? Can I find someone else who wants the same things as me who has never been married and doesn''t have kids but wants them? I assure you there is no such man in this town of 5,000 but this is where my job is that I love.

This was not what I was hoping for but I still left room to anticipate this decision. I just couldn''t stay at his house last night. Neither of us called or texted. I''m going to go work out now, but I thought I''d come back and take my name off the list.

Thanks for all the dust.

Sorry to hear that he sees an obsticle, but in my language, he hasnt actually said no. He actually said he would reconsider...ie. consider children if it meant loosing you.

Bottem line is that he doesnt want to loose you.

Second fact is that one of you will have to give in/ be upset/ loose etc in this issue of children. That is unavoidable because there is no compromise possible of course. So, either you give in, and possibly resent the sacrifice, or he gives in and ends up with a child he will most likely adore and cherish.

You can see where Im going with this. I really believe that if one of you has to give in it should be him because the cost is too great to you to never have a kid if thats what is in your heart.

And I really think he will come around because he hasnt said no exactly, but I understand its not what he wants because he feels done in that area.

I sort of know how you are feeling because my h. said no to a third child even though to me it was something I couldnt live without.

Well...long story....third child is 6yo and dh couldnt be happier.

I hope you and your partner can work it out. He does sound very nice as do you. And I can see him coming round to your way of thinking because he hasnt ruled it out 100%.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 3/7/2009 9:56:18 AM
Author: LaraOnline
SP, I feel just absolutely rotten for you. Sending PS vibes!!!

Regarding the kid thing, I also was NOT a ''maternal type since high-school'' girl, I just didn''t get the magic until gradually I realised that I NEEDED to have a baby. Yes, I got the instinct to PUSH and that was about how primitive and basic it was, too. Like finally needing to eat a meal that has been post-poned or even denied you, all your life.

So don''t feel bad or feel you need to justify the instinct to have a child. Personally (and this is a position I came to through my life experiences) I feel that if you are in a long-term relationship you pretty much have a biological ''right'' to consider having a child. Your body, your mind and your circumstances are in the position to not only do so, but instinctively, subconsciously, to almost expect so. It is unfair that men, using the social pressure of mainstream acceptance of contraception technology, can deny women a child or children when week after week, month after month, the whole body (and relationship) is going through the motions of striving to conceive one.

unfair.

But.

You are not at that point of ''need'', and may well never be there. I''m the sensitive type, inclined to dwell.

The fact that you are secretly exploring the opportunity to continue the relationship and forget children tells me that perhaps you could cope with continuing on with this man, and seeing what happens.

Here''s my witchiest advice: after a year or so (insert arbitrary time frame that seems suitable to you here), I would switch down to a lesser strength contraceptive method. Sorry, don''t flame me!

We all know what causes babies, even your love. He is leaning on you, and you can go his way. But right action is not always black and white, be kind to yourself and take one day at a time.

By the time I met my husband I actually told him (briefly and lightly) I was not interested in using any (artificial) contraception whatsoever! And I stuck to that. I thought that would scare him off, and was desperate enough to feel I didn''t care too much about the risk regardless of what happened to me / us... but we just got engaged, real quick! So, if you love him, perhaps the way to go is don''t harp on, expecting him to have a great detailed answer for every possibility in life, and just see what happens.

Lara, I love what you have written and agree with your plan 100%.

 

[luckystar112]

I can't believe I just read that.

I have to express my extreme disagreement with Lara and Sharon. Their use of devil emoticons is a good indicator that that isn't exactly the most moral choice to make.

I know in this age of "girl power" we sometimes forget that men have rights too. That includes whether or not to father a child. And especially, going about it the "sneaky" way of lowering your dose of birth control? When the father does not want another child? Unacceptable. Coniving. Dare I say, crazy?
Look, I know it's easy to tell yourself, "Oh, he'll have a change of heart once the baby actually gets here!" But you would have gone about it in the most sneaky, undeserving way. If only MORE men were as cautious with their fertility! There would be less single-parent households, that's for sure. The way I see it, the ONLY morally correct option in a situation where one person wants to be a parent and the other does not is to make the decision YOURSELF as to whether or not that is something you can live with. Drastically changing someone else's life for your OWN benefit is selfish and will not only affect your relationship, but the resulting child.

This man has expressed to Starset his reservations about having another child. He expressed that he would reconsider it if it meant losing her. Not enough, IMO. And nowhere close to the excitement I would want the potential father of my child to have. The excitement that the new baby DESERVES.

Lara said, "It is unfair that men, using the social pressure of mainstream acceptance of contraception technology, can deny women a child or children when week after week, month after month, the whole body (and relationship) is going through the motions of striving to conceive one."

I remember that this was expressed in ATW as well a while back. But I have to say, it takes two to tango. If a woman wants a baby so bad that the very act of having sex with conception is making her resentful, it's time to move on. She will owe it to herself to find a partner on the same page. Additionaly, in this age of adoption, sperm banks, etc. it's a little outdated to think that a man is preventing ANY woman from having a child if she wants one bad enough.

In summary, Mr. Starset has been pretty clear with her since the beginning. I have been following and it appears that his opinion has not waivered much during the course of the relationship. She needs to make a personal decision regarding her life goals and decide to stay in the relationship or bow out. Period. No sneaky stuff. And Starset, FWIW, I could never see you doing that in the first place...thank goodness.

 

[neatfreak]

I''m with Lucky...I can''t imagine doing that to someone. I don''t think it''s ever a good idea to manipulate/deceive someone, especially someone who is supposed to be your partner.

 

[CNOS128]

Lara, are you suggesting that Starset stay with her mister, knowing that he doesn''t want more children (and implicitly - or explicitly - agreeing not to have more children), and then somewhere down the line trick him into having more children?
If so, I''d have to disagree with this advice as well.

If Starset is willing to give up having children to be with this man, that is a choice. But if she wants children, she should probably not marry the person who was clear that he does not. I agree with luckystar''s statement that, just as people have the right to decide to have children -- they also have the right to decide NOT to have children (legally, too, in the US).
I just see huge potential for that plan to backfire, or to leave Starset in a worse predicament than she''s in now.

Starset, there''s no way for you to know if you''d regret not having kids of your own sometime in the future. I''m so sorry you have to make this decision, and I hope you can find peace with whatever choice you make, no matter what it is.

 

[KimberlyH]

Starset, I am so sorry that you're stuck in the same conumdrum that you were in a year ago. You come across as an extremely bright, levelheaded human being who will make the right/best choice for you.

As for the comments about altering birth control, my mouth literally dropped open. I know people do such things, but I am still stunned by the mere suggestion. Despicable and loathsome come to mind when I contemplate such a deceitful and cruel (to the partner who doesn't want a child and the unborn child) idea.

 

[bee*]

Date: 3/7/2009 12:02:40 PM
Author: neatfreak
I''m with Lucky...I can''t imagine doing that to someone. I don''t think it''s ever a good idea to manipulate/deceive someone, especially someone who is supposed to be your partner.

ditto. I think that''s really bad advice. I''m so sorry to hear what happened Starset. I hope that things work out for you.

 

[Definitely. Maybe]

I tend not to read too much into the comments, but I read Lara''s post and those that followed. I didn''t read her comments as being deceitful or cruel (and I hope I am right). I read them more as an idea to discuss with BF, since there is no clear line or option that would be fair to both. I thought she meant they agree to lessen her BC and see what happens, together. If they don''t have a child then fine, at least she tried- and he ''wins.'' If they do then good, hopefully they can both find happiness in that. He hasn''t said ''No" yet, so I don''t think he is 100% against the idea of having children.

I wouldn''t do it in a deceitful way though. That really wouldn''t be fair to the child, because you really don''t know how the father will react. Maybe loving at first then taper off... or run away completely.

I am so sorry, Starset, that you are in this situation. I can only imagine how difficult it is. I will be thinking of you. Hope everything works out for the best.

 

[choro72]

I''m sorry Starset.

Wishing you both the best.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 3/7/2009 12:32:56 PM
Author: Definitely, Maybe
I tend not to read too much into the comments, but I read Lara''s post and those that followed. I didn''t read her comments as being deceitful or cruel (and I hope I am right). I read them more as an idea to discuss with BF, since there is no clear line or option that would be fair to both. I thought she meant they agree to lessen her BC and see what happens, together. If they don''t have a child then fine, at least she tried- and he ''wins.'' If they do then good, hopefully they can both find happiness in that. He hasn''t said ''No'' yet, so I don''t think he is 100% against the idea of having children.

I wouldn''t do it in a deceitful way though. That really wouldn''t be fair to the child, because you really don''t know how the father will react. Maybe loving at first then taper off... or run away completely.

I am so sorry, Starset, that you are in this situation. I can only imagine how difficult it is. I will be thinking of you. Hope everything works out for the best.

DM, I most certainly hope your interpretation of Lara''s comments is correct and perhaps she''ll come back and share that we misread what she wrote, but if my understanding of what she wrote is correct I stand by what I said.

Life isn''t fair, relationships aren''t fair, they are compromise though, and at best a meeting of the minds. But sometimes things don''t work out that way. My heart breaks for Starset, but suggesting she deceive her boyfriend into having a child certainly doesn''t solve the problem (as I am sure she knows) it only brings about a whole new set of troubles to her relationship, including the absolute loss of trust, which could quite possibly never be rebuilt.

 

[Definitely. Maybe]

Date: 3/7/2009 12:47:11 PM
Author: KimberlyH
DM, I most certainly hope your interpretation of Lara''s comments is correct and perhaps she''ll come back and share that we misread what she wrote, but if my understanding of what she wrote is correct I stand by what I said.

Life isn''t fair, relationships aren''t fair, they are compromise though, and at best a meeting of the minds. But sometimes things don''t work out that way. My heart breaks for Starset, but suggesting she deceive her boyfriend into having a child certainly doesn''t solve the problem (as I am sure she knows) it only brings about a whole new set of troubles to her relationship, including the absolute loss of trust, which could quite possibly never be rebuilt.

I completely agree.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 3/7/2009 12:32:56 PM
Author: Definitely, Maybe
I tend not to read too much into the comments, but I read Lara's post and those that followed. I didn't read her comments as being deceitful or cruel (and I hope I am right). I read them more as an idea to discuss with BF, since there is no clear line or option that would be fair to both. I thought she meant they agree to lessen her BC and see what happens, together. If they don't have a child then fine, at least she tried- and he 'wins.' If they do then good, hopefully they can both find happiness in that. He hasn't said 'No' yet, so I don't think he is 100% against the idea of having children.

I wouldn't do it in a deceitful way though. That really wouldn't be fair to the child, because you really don't know how the father will react. Maybe loving at first then taper off... or run away completely.

I am so sorry, Starset, that you are in this situation. I can only imagine how difficult it is. I will be thinking of you. Hope everything works out for the best.

She started out by saying that it was her "witchiest advice", which leads me to believe that he wouldn't be involved in the decision. IMO that is the equivalent of telling someone to poke a hole in the condom. I do like YOUR idea though.

I even think Lara's "Take it or leave it" approach with her own husband is better than secretly changing someone's life forever.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 3/7/2009 1:21:05 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 3/7/2009 12:32:56 PM

Author: Definitely, Maybe

I tend not to read too much into the comments, but I read Lara's post and those that followed. I didn't read her comments as being deceitful or cruel (and I hope I am right). I read them more as an idea to discuss with BF, since there is no clear line or option that would be fair to both. I thought she meant they agree to lessen her BC and see what happens, together. If they don't have a child then fine, at least she tried- and he 'wins.' If they do then good, hopefully they can both find happiness in that. He hasn't said 'No' yet, so I don't think he is 100% against the idea of having children.


I wouldn't do it in a deceitful way though. That really wouldn't be fair to the child, because you really don't know how the father will react. Maybe loving at first then taper off... or run away completely.


I am so sorry, Starset, that you are in this situation. I can only imagine how difficult it is. I will be thinking of you. Hope everything works out for the best.

She started out by saying that it was her 'witchiest advice', which leads me to believe that he wouldn't be involved in the decision. IMO that is the equivalent of telling someone to poke a hole in the condom. I do like YOUR idea though.

I even think Lara's 'Take it or leave it' approach with her own husband is better than secretly changing someone's life forever.

I wouldn't want to think it of Lara, but "witchiest advice" does sound like it would equate to "without the SO's knowledge" otherwise it wouldn't be "witchy" at all. I find that disturbing. Having it be a mutual decision would be fine, of course, though.

Starset, you know yourself and your relationship much better than any of us ever can. I think if you take some time and listen to your heart, you'll find the answer that's best for you and your future--whether that includes your SO or not. Wishing you nothing but the best, hon.

 

[purrfectpear]

This really boils down to whether Starset wants to have a child or not. If so, then she needs to wait for a guy who welcomes that with all his heart.

I have to disagree with the theory that he will magically turn into father of the year and forget that he wasn''t gung ho on having kids.

Some people are really 100% OK with not having one. I''m sure he would love a child of his, but there is no guarantee that he wouldn''t look back and regret the sacrifices that a child demands. Do you really want to have a child with someone who is willing to "make the best" of a situation they would rather avoid?

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 3/7/2009 3:49:13 PM
Author: purrfectpear
This really boils down to whether Starset wants to have a child or not. If so, then she needs to wait for a guy who welcomes that with all his heart.


I have to disagree with the theory that he will magically turn into father of the year and forget that he wasn't gung ho on having kids.


Some people are really 100% OK with not having one. I'm sure he would love a child of his, but there is no guarantee that he wouldn't look back and regret the sacrifices that a child demands. Do you really want to have a child with someone who is willing to 'make the best' of a situation they would rather avoid?

I agree. My brother is 38, father of 2 boys (6 and 3) and newly divorced (after having been married 11 years - wife just didn't want to be married anymore - married too young, whatever

). My bro is adamant that he never wants to have another child. Not because he wouldn't love it, or because he wouldn't enjoy having another, but because he doesn't want a bond with another child that is different than what he shares with the two that are already here. He feels it would be unfair to them to have another child that gets to have a mommy and daddy in one unit when the other two are back and forth. He also is not interested in having any stepchildren. He knows that getting married again would be asking an awful lot of someone to come into his situation, take a back seat to the 2 kids, and never get any of her own. He understands that he may never marry because of it - but he is clear. He also says that having children is the best thing ever (and he has been both mom and dad for the last 6 years).

Don't settle. Spouses may come and go - children are yours forever. Your guy already has his.

ETA - I can't believe he needed 72 hours to tell you this . . . AGAIN!

 

[Bliss]

SP, I am thinking about you and hope you are staying strong!

It''s such a hard thing -- your head says you need to find your own way on your own terms but the heart tells you that there is just one love. I''m sending you dust!!!!

 

[LilyOfTheValley]

Starset, this makes me feel so sad for you.

I hope that things will work out in your favor. From what I''ve read so far, it sounds more like the guy is stalling...heck, he probably is. I''m so sorry. But I also think that it''s totally cool that you''re a strong woman who knows what you want, and that you don''t take his wasting your time lying down.