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The Engagement/Marriage Psychology Thread

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Just piping in to say that Bee's anecdotal evidence is well supported by statistics. The median age of first marriage in the United States is 3 years younger for both men (27) and women (25) than it is in Ireland (30 & 28.5).

In fact, Americans get married younger than anywhere else in the rich world.
 
Date: 1/5/2008 7:59:45 PM
Author: Independent Gal
Just piping in to say that Bee''s anecdotal evidence is well supported by statistics. The median age of first marriage in the United States is 3 years younger for both men (27) and women (25) than it is in Ireland (30 & 28.5).

In fact, Americans get married younger than anywhere else in the rich world.

Thank you for the factual information. This does seem accurate across the board. Yet... My group of friends are all married and have children. Each married at a different age - 19, 20, 21, and two 22 year olds. It has thrown me off a bit considering I was under the impression the age had been pressed back. But I don''t mind being the only one not yet married. It is coming and I have no problem waiting.
 
Erin, given that all your friends are married at a very early age, and most with kids, do you mind if I ask if:

A. Did any of them complete college?
B. Do they all work full time?
C. Did they have kids right away?
D. Did they marry high school boyfriends?
E. Did their parents attend college and if not, did they also marry early (ie: 18-25)?

I ask only to determine if the education card is possibly an issue (no judgment, I''m genuinely interested and if you dont want to answer the above, no problem!). I say this because where I went to HS, there was a split community - some were from more of a farming community and others were from families with parents who worked in NYC and who wanted to raise their kids in a more rural environment. I say "education card" above because many of the kids from more farming families went on to quickly marry their HS boyfriends after HS graduation, and have kids rather quickly (and sadly many are divorced now), while those who were from "corporate" families went on to college and a variety of things including interesting careers, later marriages, lots of travel, etc. I think those who married very early seemed to have no other real options because they weren''t encouraged at home to pursue a higher education past HS. HS was enough for their parents so it should be good enough for their kids too - at least that was the vibe we got. I''m not saying all families that live in rural environments don''t encourage their kids to go to college, etc. Just that where I grew up, this was a very common scenario and a clear distinction between the kids who came from farming homes vs. those whose parents worked in corporate America.
 
Good point Surfgirl - let me answer within your post.


Date: 1/5/2008 8:25:57 PM
Author: surfgirl
Erin, given that all your friends are married at a very early age, and most with kids, do you mind if I ask if:

A. Did any of them complete college?
All of the girls did complete college and have various degrees.

B. Do they all work full time?
All work full time in well paid occupations.

C. Did they have kids right away?
Two of the ladies were preg. within 3 months of the wedding. The others waited about a year.

D. Did they marry high school boyfriends?
Not one married a high school boyfriend which still blows me away.

E. Did their parents attend college and if not, did they also marry early (ie: 18-25)?
I can't speak for each girl but I do know that 4 of the girls parents did go to and graduate college. I am unsure of how young they were married though so this I can not comment on.

I ask only to determine if the education card is possibly an issue (no judgment, I'm genuinely interested and if you dont want to answer the above, no problem!). I say this because where I went to HS, there was a split community - some were from more of a farming community and others were from families with parents who worked in NYC and who wanted to raise their kids in a more rural environment. I say 'education card' above because many of the kids from more farming families went on to quickly marry their HS boyfriends after HS graduation, and have kids rather quickly (and sadly many are divorced now), while those who were from 'corporate' families went on to college and a variety of things including interesting careers, later marriages, lots of travel, etc. I think those who married very early seemed to have no other real options because they weren't encouraged at home to pursue a higher education past HS. HS was enough for their parents so it should be good enough for their kids too - at least that was the vibe we got. I'm not saying all families that live in rural environments don't encourage their kids to go to college, etc. Just that where I grew up, this was a very common scenario and a clear distinction between the kids who came from farming homes vs. those whose parents worked in corporate America.
I live about 30 minutes out of Los Angeles so I don't believe we can even be considered farm families.
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I do know that each of of their parents has a very coperate type occupation. (Benefits consultant, a VP of a billion dollar company, a BMW corperate head, a producer for NBC, and a President of ING. to name a few) So even though I understand where your theory can be obtained in general - it is not the case with me.
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And please don't apologize. I think it's wonderful you are interested in hearing their stories... Even though that are somewhat surprising.
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To be honest, I am surprised myself when I am around them and their families. It's not common but for whatever reason, it is how it worked out...

They often put Eric in a corner asking "why won't you marry her - blah blah blah" to which I get somewhat agrivated... I have told them several times that each relationship is different and to respect mine as I do theirs. I personally believe they were eager because for a time (sadly enough) my generation was connected to the stars - ex. Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, Britney Spears, Katie Holmes, Nichole Richie, and so on... When those girls made relationships, motherhood, and marriage look appealing (mainly Britney) they were ready to do the same. Their choice, not mine. :)

Who knows in the long run... All I know is that I am enjoying my 3 year relationship and loving the moments I am a girlfriend. Soon that will change and it's better to say I enjoyed it, rather then I wish I had.
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Then again - that could just be me.
 
Erin, thanks for answering my questions. Yeah, I can see where my theory doesn''t hold water based on your answers...I''m wondering if there''s some commonality though hidden? I sometimes wonder if the Hollywood obsession Americans have might contribute to young women wanting to just be married. To get the ring, the dress, the party, etc. I seem to remember a HS graduate on that heinous "Real Housewives of the OC" (yeah, even I have a secret love of certain crap TV, horrific though they may be!), and this girl was planning her graduation party and she said, "Oh, I really need to get married soon so I can plan a real wedding party, wont that be fun!" and I thought, "huh?!? wtf was that?"
 
Date: 1/5/2008 8:49:45 PM
Author: surfgirl
Erin, thanks for answering my questions. Yeah, I can see where my theory doesn''t hold water based on your answers...I''m wondering if there''s some commonality though hidden? I sometimes wonder if the Hollywood obsession Americans have might contribute to young women wanting to just be married. To get the ring, the dress, the party, etc. I seem to remember a HS graduate on that heinous ''Real Housewives of the OC'' (yeah, even I have a secret love of certain crap TV, horrific though they may be!), and this girl was planning her graduation party and she said, ''Oh, I really need to get married soon so I can plan a real wedding party, wont that be fun!'' and I thought, ''huh?!? wtf was that?''
Oh how funny!! I just went back to edit my posting and discussed this sad reality. (by the way - I indulge WAY too often in The Real Housewives of OC too...) And you''re right - it is Hollywood in MANY ways. The glamour of the perfect ring, perfect proposal, perfect wedding, perfect marriage, and perfect children is nothing more then a green screen with paid actors. Yet, people believe it. I''m not sure that "fad" will EVER change but as long as it is around people will fall into the trap. Not much to be done. You really nailed this one right on the head though.
 
Date: 1/5/2008 8:25:57 PM
Author: surfgirl
Erin, given that all your friends are married at a very early age, and most with kids, do you mind if I ask if:


A. Did any of them complete college?

B. Do they all work full time?

C. Did they have kids right away?

D. Did they marry high school boyfriends?

E. Did their parents attend college and if not, did they also marry early (ie: 18-25)?


I ask only to determine if the education card is possibly an issue (no judgment, I''m genuinely interested and if you dont want to answer the above, no problem!). I say this because where I went to HS, there was a split community - some were from more of a farming community and others were from families with parents who worked in NYC and who wanted to raise their kids in a more rural environment. I say ''education card'' above because many of the kids from more farming families went on to quickly marry their HS boyfriends after HS graduation, and have kids rather quickly (and sadly many are divorced now), while those who were from ''corporate'' families went on to college and a variety of things including interesting careers, later marriages, lots of travel, etc. I think those who married very early seemed to have no other real options because they weren''t encouraged at home to pursue a higher education past HS. HS was enough for their parents so it should be good enough for their kids too - at least that was the vibe we got. I''m not saying all families that live in rural environments don''t encourage their kids to go to college, etc. Just that where I grew up, this was a very common scenario and a clear distinction between the kids who came from farming homes vs. those whose parents worked in corporate America.

I''m not Erin, but all of my friends are the same way. The majority of people I went to high school with are married/are getting married/have children (and I''m only 21!). SO and I -met- in high school but we didn''t start dating until we were 19. I honestly think only 20% of people from my high school go onto school (technical school or community college usually) and I honestly only know about 8 people who went on to a college that wasn''t in the same county. Most of their parents married young, didn''t go to college, and didn''t encourage them really ''dating around''. I know my best friend married her high school sweetheart after only a year together, mainly to move out of her parents house. BF and I get a hard time when we go home because we both moved away for college (states away) and we aren''t married yet. To the people at home, we''re snobby freaks of nature. I will be a pharmacist in a year and a half and BF will be an engineer in just a few short months - and somehow that automatically makes us "think we''re better than everyone" at home? I don''t understand it. It is a very rural community with most jobs being in mining or education.

Re: only being together for 1-2 years: I think there is a difference between being together for 2 years and only knowing the person for 2 years. I have known SO for 10 years, and we were very close friends for at least 7 of those. We''ve been dating almost 2 years at this point, but I feel like it''s different than just knowing each other for 2 years. I basically knew everything about him, good and bad, before he even became my boyfriend. I feel like we are in a weird situation because he goes to school in OH and I go to school in PA and all our families are in WV. We really only have each other (we''re about an hour and a half apart) while our friends and family are 6-8 hours away. It''s definitely the kind of dynamics that occur when people marry and move states away together - and we already know how to handle that.

Re: LIW: I stumbled upon this site after SO and I decided that we were definitely going to get married one day and he started asking me what kind of ring I would want (aka: how much money did he need to save, which affects how soon it could happen). I was raised by a very independent aunt and have been a very independent "I don''t need a man" type for as long as I can remember -- my aunt basically taught me all men were awful and they weren''t to be trusted. I have been independent financially and otherwise since I was 17 and definitely don''t have the luxury of parents paying for things, on-campus housing, etc. I definitely feel like I act about 35, haha. BF was raised by his mom after a divorce, teaching him the importance of respecting a woman and he''s used to living with a woman, being around only women, etc. We both grew up too fast and constantly get accused of acting like we''re "old folks". I''m not in any hurry to get married, but I do have the promise of marriage and have finally decided what ring I would like. I expect a proposal before we officially move in together in Sept. I feel like a lot of the ladies on this site who have graduated from being LIW and are older, have a bad habit of assuming things about your life/situation/relationship based strictly on your age and I think that''s what causes a lot of riffs. It''s turned me off to posting on here several times.
 
I''m confused by this thread! but i''ll post the best i can because, well, i''ve got some time to kill
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(sorry if it is OT)

I''m among the girls that had SEVERE LIWitis. My anxiousness was mostly associated with my super intense desire to move forward with my life. I''d lived own my own for a few years, was almost done with my undergrad and was just basically ready to move into the next stage with our relationship. we had been extremely serious and had been talking about marriage seriously for two years, almost three, and i was just no longer content. i wanted to have a life with him, not just a life with him in it.....if that makes sense.

The anxiety was worsened by him putting off the engagement (for legit reasons) much longer than i had anticipated (by about 8 months). It was just horrible because i was READY....and there was nothing i could do. it wasn''t about lacking communication, it wasn''t about societal pressures, it wasn''t about wanting a ring, it was just about feeling ready to start my life with him as his wife and not being able to.

(it probably would have been A LOT easier if we had been living together....but we had agreed not to until we are married....which i was seriously reconsidering by the time we got engaged)
 
Just a few thoughts from an old married lady!! (okay, not that old, 40) I began my relationship with my husband when we were very young, 15, 17, so when we were engaged nine years later, it felt like I had waited forever. And I felt that if he wasn''t ready to make a commitment after that many years, it was time to move on for both of us.

It was so exciting to be engaged, and then married. But you know, marriage is hard work and the honeymoon phase will not sustain you through difficult life experiences, and definitely not after having a child. Your love will be challenged by many different factors along the road, so I do think it is most important to understand that you have to grow within the relationship, as it will need to change somewhat during each phase of your marriage. Couples married early will either grow together and adapt, or grow apart and divorce, or bide their time until things turn around for the better or worse.

The pressure to be married and not feel left behind can be very powerful, especially for young women. Educational choices can lead couples in separate directions and this often ends relationships. The person who seems right for you when you are twenty may not be after a few years at college or out in the working world. On the flip side, it can also be very difficult for people who have remained single until well into their thirties or forty''s to find someone they are compatible with and willing to settle down with. You definitely become more set in your ways as you age, and that can lead to less flexibility in what you are willing to put up with within your relationships.

I was told recently by a neighbour in her late twenties, that if she had taken a pre-marital course with her husband, she probably would not have married him as they have very different expectations from marriage, and clashing priorities about what is important to each of them. They spent their university years together and were married shortly after graduation. He wanted one child, she wanted several. He wants a tidy home, she prefers to devote her time to her work and her daughter. She needs to talk about her feelings, he doesn''t. I hope they can work through their differences, but she wants to go to counselling and he doesn''t, so they have a struggle ahead of them.

I guess my point is that although the psychological element of engagement and marriage is different for everyone, there are also many similar characteristics that need to be considered by all couples. Communication is key, as are timing, flexibility and commitment.
 
Date: 1/5/2008 9:22:17 PM
Author: hlmr
Just a few thoughts from an old married lady!! (okay, not that old, 40) I began my relationship with my husband when we were very young, 15, 17, so when we were engaged nine years later, it felt like I had waited forever. And I felt that if he wasn''t ready to make a commitment after that many years, it was time to move on for both of us.

It was so exciting to be engaged, and then married. But you know, marriage is hard work and the honeymoon phase will not sustain you through difficult life experiences, and definitely not after having a child. Your love will be challenged by many different factors along the road, so I do think it is most important to understand that you have to grow within the relationship, as it will need to change somewhat during each phase of your marriage. Couples married early will either grow together and adapt, or grow apart and divorce, or bide their time until things turn around for the better or worse.

The pressure to be married and not feel left behind can be very powerful, especially for young women. Educational choices can lead couples in separate directions and this often ends relationships. The person who seems right for you when you are twenty may not be after a few years at college or out in the working world. On the flip side, it can also be very difficult for people who have remained single until well into their thirties or forty''s to find someone they are compatible with and willing to settle down with. You definitely become more set in your ways as you age, and that can lead to less flexibility in what you are willing to put up with within your relationships.

I was told recently by a neighbour in her late twenties, that if she had taken a pre-marital course with her husband, she probably would not have married him as they have very different expectations from marriage, and clashing priorities about what is important to each of them. They spent their university years together and were married shortly after graduation. He wanted one child, she wanted several. He wants a tidy home, she prefers to devote her time to her work and her daughter. She needs to talk about her feelings, he doesn''t. I hope they can work through their differences, but she wants to go to counselling and he doesn''t, so they have a struggle ahead of them.

I guess my point is that although the psychological element of engagement and marriage is different for everyone, there are also many similar characteristics that need to be considered by all couples. Communication is key, as are timing, flexibility and commitment.
This is a GEM of advice. Thank you so very much for your veiwpoint. This helps younger ladies like myself realize that they are doing the right thing by waiting a few more years and taking the steps to create a better life. Marriage is not just some perfect arrangment with very little work needed and I am glad you pointed that out. Your wisdom is both admired and appreciated - especially in this thread!!
 
I''ve been engaged twice, married once.

My first engagement occurred was finishing up college and dating a guy who was definitely not the one for me. The proposal came quickly (9 months of dating) and was a comlete shock. I didn''t know what else to say except "yes." So we planned (and planned big, 250 guests), and I bought a dress and we did all of these wedding type things, with vague talk of the future (i.e. where we would be living, how we would handle finances, you know the nitty-gritty stuff that makes a marriage work). About 6 weeks prior to the wedding my dad, sister and I were addressing invitations (STDs had already been mailed) and my dad asked to speak to me alone. He simply said "You don''t have to do this if you don''t want to." It was like being handed the keys to the kingdom. A few days later I called off the wedding. He knew what was coming, as I was saying "I can''t do this" he handed me a letter he had written saying he thought we should postpone. For a while afterwards he wanted me to come back, but I knew it wasn''t good or right. So on went my life.

I spent the following years taking stock of myself and my life. I dated one person seriously during that time (a distaster), but spent about 2 years alone, working, improving myself, being with my friends and just enjoying life. I figured out who I was during that time; what I wanted and who I wanted to be became very clear to me. I also figured out that if I never got married it would be a-okay; I liked who I was, where I was.

I met my husband in a very random way. We dated long distance for almost a year before I moved to be near him. My mom was very concerned because he was/is in his late 30''s and had never been married, she assumed that meant he never wanted to be. I told her if nothing else I was going to have myself some fun -- a new adventure in a new city closer to her!! -- and see where things went, I wasn''t concerned about marriage. I ended up wanting to get married though, once I moved, not just because I wanted to be married, but because I wanted to be married to him. I had one big melt down, after he teased me about engagement rings in a restaurant on Valentine''s Day; it wasn''t the first time the subject came up, but it opened the door for lots of meaningful conversations about both our wants and needs and we would up engaged within 10 months and married 9 months later.

I find the whole LIW phenomena fascinating. The first time around the ex-fiance and I were in such different places (I was nowhere near ready to be married!!!) and it was such a surreal experience; it truly felt like I was watching myself from afar planning a wedding with no clue about what was to come afterwards. The experience opened my eyes to so many important things about me, and the need to be with someone who I could talk to and be comfortable sharing my thoughts and feelings with, instead of allowing myself to get caught up in situations that just weren''t right for me or us because I didn''t know how to say no.

DH and I were so open with one another and we came to an agreement, as a couple, about what was best for us. I can''t imagine not being able to discuss such an important thing, any important thing, with a partner, even having experienced it. Acknowledging and dealiing with the fact that while we may not be in the exact same place, all of the time, we are both willing and able to work towards a compromise that makes both of us happy is a key element of any good relationship.

I don''t think anything I''ve said contributes to this conversation, but I''ve spent so much time typing it out I''m submitting it anyways!
 
Date: 1/5/2008 10:56:03 PM
Author: KimberlyH

I don''t think anything I''ve said contributes to this conversation, but I''ve spent so much time typing it out I''m submitting it anyways!

LOL Kimberly, that is exactly how I was feeling when I hit the submit button!!
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Date: 1/5/2008 6:44:59 PM
Author: thing2of2
Well I won't get super psychological, but I think that most LsIW should think about a few things before they get frustrated and upset.

1. Communication is the most important aspect of a relationship. If you feel like you can't communicate with your boyfriend about important things like your future together, maybe you shouldn't be getting married just yet. In a healthy relationship, you should be able to talk about pretty much anything with each other.

2. It's important to remember that you are in control of your own destiny. You don't have to wait around indefinitely for a guy to propose. If he knows you desperately want to get married but he won't propose, he may not be the right guy for you.

3. Think about why you want to be married. Is it only because you want to be in a more committed relationship with your boyfriend? Or are you feeling pressured by your friends/family/society?

4. Listen to your intuition. Do you think he is ready for marriage? Or is he just telling you he's planning on proposing eventually to keep you around?
I have no idea what other thread is being discussed but I just popped in here because of the intriguing title.

I absolutely love this post from miss thing2of2!! So many times I read LIW threads and I seriously feel quite baffled. By many things but the one that always pops out at me is I really wonder why it seems like some gals just cannot communicate with their man unless women here tell them to. And then it's like OH *light bulb* yes I should tell him what I think! Communication in a marriage is so key...I can't even stress that enough. Forget marriage, in a relationship, it's key.

Also the own destiny thing I have said many a time to a LIW on here. You have your own power! These women get so frustrated by their men and yet sometimes they have timelines that are kind of unreasonable OR life intrudes and it has to get delayed OR the guy has been honest about the timeline being further down the road and the gals are still busy having freak outs. I am always thinking really what is the serious hurry. You will have forever to be married to this person. Make your own life and don't just be waiting around for your life to start when your man finally realizes you may be the one he wants to marry. Don't let life pass you by in the meantime.

In terms of the whole age thing...I only know one person in our circle of friends who was married young, they met in college and married right out of it. Everyone else we know pretty much met and married their partner in late 20's or early 30's. I think this is a function of where we live as well. So many people here in the BayArea live for their careers that they don't even have mental readiness for a mate until their mid to late 20's...when they start to surface from work to realize they want more. Also I have said this before but I used to think that I wanted to be married at 25, but gosh when I look at what I was like at 25 or what my sister is like now at 25...I know that whoever I married of my ex's at the time, we never would have made it! I was still changing and growing and becoming MORE...and so were they most likely. I knew so much more at 26 and 27 and 28 and today than I did at 25....I don't think that age necessarily defines when one is ready for marriage, but I do think that it can factor into how mature the people in the relationship are in understanding just what marriage entails...and if they can stick it through for the long haul. Some people have this maturity quite young...others don't but kind of fake it til it actually happens.

When so many gals come on LIW and seem so anxious to just get engaged and then married, I always kind of wonder why. I mean, I remember being excited and anxious as well, but I was never quite so worked up about it (I don't think!!)....I basically kind of said hey this is what I want and I am certain about it, do you want it too? If so, we should do something about it. If not...then maybe we should part ways. Let's take some time for you to think about it. And that really worked quite well for us. I can't even imagine if I had been bugging on him about the whole thing or having freak outs...I think it would have seriously turned him off and made him question things. Sometimes I tell him stories of some of the experiences on here and he will ask me if I am serious. Also, I wasn't going to just be sitting around on his timeline...I was too much my own person at that point. If he had not been on board within my timeline of 'reasonable' (which he agreed to up front)...then probably he wasn't the one for me. Luckily for us, we were on the same wavelength and things clicked. But that is just us, I know there are so many ways that people get from point A to point B...and different experiences will ensue.

Gosh this is long...hope it makes some sense!!
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i think another aspect is that the whole thing starts at a very young age for some. look at all of the disney movies with princesses and the wedding scene that inevitably closes the movies and they live happily ever after. i really wonder what the young girls these days who buy all of the disney princess paraphenalia will think of marriage/weddings when they grow up. i wonder how much the disney messages contribute to the divorce rate.

i never was one who dreamed of getting married and engagement ring, wedding, dress, etc. but i know several people who have dreamed of the whole wedding thing since they were young. one of them is really really depressed and yes, desperate, that she is not yet married. i see that she is putting the cart before the horse and thinking of marriage as a "thing to have". instead i wish she would put more energy into finding out how to meet a guy who is marriage worthy and who on the same page as her w/ regard to life goals.

and you know now that i am going through it, i can see the lure of getting engaged and having a wedding - it''s exciting, gives you something to do, everyone asks you about it, you usually get bling :P, and you get to plan your dream event. and i don''t mean that in a negative way, it is just the way society is setup - society definitely rewards you.

i am in no way saying that this is the case with everyone who wants to get married.

anyway, like mara, i liked what thing2of2 wrote and think it is spot on.
 
Mara, your post makes complete sense as usual.

I''ll contribute a little anecdote from when I first started dating my DH: we''d been dating for ~6 weeks, long-distance, but we spent every weekend together, spoke every night on the phone, and there were absolutely no games (or need for them on either of our parts). I was telling my mother over the phone one day how happy I was with this guy and how much fun we were having together, blah blah blah, and she says to me, "Heather, you better think about taking some cooking classes or something. Make sure you have plenty to offer this guy because it''s possible he will lose interest after a while" or something to that effect. I think she brought up the cooking thing because I was 24 at the time and living my single-girl-in-the-city lifestyle and I just wasn''t very proficient in the kitchen. She, OTOH, has been married for oh...34 years and has made my father a freshly home-baked dessert 3-4 times a week all those years, in addition to doing all of the cooking, cleaning, etc. Total housewife, SAHM, you get the picture. But her comment to me was like saying that after the newness wore off our relationship, I wouldn''t have much else to offer someone because I wasn''t the most domestic woman on the planet. When i expressed to her that I was pretty sure he wasn''t just interested in whether I could cook or not, and that if he didn''t like me for what I already had to offer than he could kiss off, she said she''d raised me to be too independent and she worried I''d never get married.
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Sometimes I can''t believe that I was a product of her uterus, really.

The whole attitude of having to be married to feel like you are complete in life has always kind of bothered me...it bothered me even more before I met my DH. I guess I''m just more of a realist than a romantic when it comes to relationships and survival in life...I don''t think I''m completely independent, I definitely feel happier and more fulfilled having a good man by my side and feeling like we have a great future together. But I still don''t buy into the whole idea of engagement/marriage being the ticket to happiness in life. Well, those are my .03 (inflation)...whatever they''re worth.
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thing2, excellent post. mara/ringster/monnie, totally agree with you both. monnie, your post made me laugh but I feel you! At my age - 40's - even having been with the Mr. for many many years before marrying, I know for a fact that when my parents heard we'd eloped they both felt like "Ahhh, FINALLY! Now we can relax and not worry about her anymore!" That? Is totally weird to me. And my good friend who had one failed marriage - married just out of college - several years after divorcing, fell for a guy in another country where she now lives and works. She's been with this guy for like 15 years at least, and my mother STILL asks me "So, have you heard from X? Do you think they'll ever get married or what?" And I'm thinking, WHY does she have to get married? She already did that and it was a disaster and she's CHOOSING to live her life with this man, but not get married. What's the big deal? And I too, consider my mother in general to be a fairly modern woman. But sometimes I have to take pause and remember that she grew up in the "Father Knows Best" era and really, at the end of the day, that's probably still ingrained in our mothers who grew up in the 50's.
 
surfgirl - your post made me laugh. so true about the FINALLY response from family. i always tell my friends and my FI that the benefits of waiting for awhile is that after awhile your family doesn''t care who you marry. when i was in my 20s my mom wanted me to marry a nice irish catholic boy. she has since given up on that and she is just happy that i am marrying someone!! but i have to give her credit, she was never the type of mom who would pester me about getting married - she always told me that career and school were priority. it was only the last two years when she became insufferable but i think it was just because she could see that my FI and i were a good match and that i was very happy.

in my 20s, i worked with a girl whose mom would always talk about weddings/marriage and put alot of pressure on my coworker. i was glad my mom wasn''t like that.
 
No one has mentioned cultural factors yet, so I''ll put in my two cents worth
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I''m Singaporean and I come from an extremely conservative Christian family. Growing up in my family, I was swaddled in cotton wool and all of my movements were tracked. I wasn''t even allowed to take public transport until I was 15. My parents are rabid conformists who believe that their daughters should grow up to become engineers/doctors/lawyers and marry successful men at 25-30, and immediately produce similarly intelligent and successful children.

Needless to say, they were very disappointed in me! I love writing and was determined to become a journalist, I started dating ''inappropriate boys'' at the age of 16 and became engaged to a man 9 years my senior at the age of 19. He was Caucasian American, and that did NOT go down well at all. I knew the relationship wouldn''t work but in the Chinese culture, you are a child until you''re married, even if it does not happen until you''re 40 or 50. I was desperate to break free from the constraints of my family and even though marriage had not yet crossed my mind at 19, when S proposed, I jumped at the opportunity to escape.

Thank goodness that didn''t work out, but around the same time I got engaged, another of my friends became engaged too. Her fiance was an ex-con and had lied to and cheated on her numerous times, but she wanted to escape from her family so much that she married him and moved to America. I haven''t heard from her in years, but I sincerely hope that she''s ok and has found happiness.

My parents were extremely protective, but I think it all worked out well in the end. I waited until I met someone I knew I could trust with my life, and to me that is the most important thing in a life partner, and we knew very early on in our relationship that it would last the distance.

I don''t think my upbringing reflects the typical Singaporen-Chinese family, but it''s not unusual. My parents were extremely protective, and it has taken years for our relationship to reach a comfortable level, but with a lot of hard work a lot of bridges have been mended. Out of all my Singaporean friends, only one other girl got married to escape her family. At 25, she was the first out of our group to get married. She was the youngest child and her mother loved her so much that unfortunately, she felt smothered and trapped. I think once the apron strings were cut, C and her mother now have a much more adult relationship and get along a lot better.

I''d be really interested to read if any other ladies had similar cultural factors pushing them towards marriage.
 
Wolftress, I saw a lot of that culture/religion influence when I was growing up...just not in my own life. I had all Korean friends and they grew up in conservative Christian homes as well. All got married "early." All were told to be bio majors and become doctors...or at the very least marry one. One of my friend''s friend''s mom actually printed up a resume of her daughters attributes and passed it around to all her friends to show their sons when her daughter turned about 25. The mother was so worried her daughter wouldn''t find a man. I remember being absolutely horrified. With pressure like that, I could see what some got married if only to get away from their parents. Many thought divorce would be a better option than staying single and under the thumb.

I have a cousin who is 37 and until recently lived at home to save some money. She is not married, and is in no hurry. When I got pregnant, my cousin jokingly told me she didn''t want to tell her mom, because I''d be ruining her life. When she did tell her mom, her mom just shook her head and said, "uh huh...THEY are all living so well," meaning obviously my cousin was not living well simply because she wasn''t married. But my aunt lives in fear that if my cousin doesn''t get married, who is going to take care of my cousin when my aunt passes away? There is this interesting notion they hold onto that their kids are kids until they get married, as you said Wolftress.

I have always felt lucky that my parents let me break the mold a bit even though they were strict. I was allowed to join the boys in TaeKwonDo during after church activities while the rest of the girls had to take ballet and Korean fan dancing classes. They encouraged me to travel alone. And never once, have they ever asked me when I was going to marry and settle down. The fact that I was free of parental (and therefore societal) pressure must have shaped my outlook on marriage a lot.
 
At SG's request, I am reposting some thoughts on the emotional distress expressed by a some of our LIW. My degree is in counseling psychology and I am part of a group practice, which is why this may sound somewhat pedantic
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There was quite a discussion on some responses given to a LIW and I wanted to add my perspective to that discussion.

I think we need to consider the developmental milestone that many young women are having to navigate at this point in their lives. Intimacy versus isolation is a core concern, which will affect ongoing psychosocial development. If we feel abandoned and/or rejected, our tendency is to move toward our partner and attempt to control them and the outcome of our relationship. Unfortunately, this often has the opposite of the desired effect, by establishing a distancer/pursuer dynamic. Trying to explain this to a woman who is depressed, anxious or fearful is a daunting task. Tough love doesnt always do the job--if it did, I would be out of a one!! I think it is important to point out the "red flags," using language that the person in distress will, at least, be able to hear. [edited for clarity]

To SG and TG:: LOL on chucking a fruity. In the case of my furkids, it's far more likely that one of my cats would hork [sp?] a hairball, than my spaniel would make a deposit under the X-mas tree
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Sorry, TG, we just can't let this go! See SG's response [to me] in the thread where you introduced this phrase into our lexicon...

EGAD!! I didn't notice that SG reposted the post that I just reposted. This message has been brought to you from the Department of Redundancy. Thank you.
 
Date: 1/6/2008 2:24:52 AM
Author: risingsun


To SG and TG:: LOL on chucking a fruity. In the case of my furkids, it''s far more likely that one of my cats would hork [sp?] a hairball, than my spaniel would make a deposit under the X-mas tree
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Sorry, TG, we just can''t let this go! See SG''s response [to me] in the thread where you introduced this phrase into our lexicon...
Fruitcake would make me want to chuck a fruity (per SG''s definition), but the Aussies (and I believe Brits) call it "christmas pudding" and it just SOUNDS so much better...as well as tastes better! No chuckin'' fruities there.

Have you ever noticed that we Americans also have funny sayings? Like having a tizzy. Synonym of chuckin'' a fruity!
 
Date: 1/6/2008 2:35:17 AM
Author: TravelingGal



Date: 1/6/2008 2:24:52 AM
Author: risingsun


To SG and TG:: LOL on chucking a fruity. In the case of my furkids, it's far more likely that one of my cats would hork [sp?] a hairball, than my spaniel would make a deposit under the X-mas tree
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Sorry, TG, we just can't let this go! See SG's response [to me] in the thread where you introduced this phrase into our lexicon...
Fruitcake would make me want to chuck a fruity (per SG's definition), but the Aussies (and I believe Brits) call it 'christmas pudding' and it just SOUNDS so much better...as well as tastes better! No chuckin' fruities there.

Have you ever noticed that we Americans also have funny sayings? Like having a tizzy. Synonym of chuckin' a fruity!
In the future, if I feel ill, I shall just chuck a fruity--regardless of the origin of the orifice
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Now I bid you all good night...
 
mmmm christmas pudding. didja bring some of that back from OZ, TG???

another fun american saying... ''panties in a bunch''...!
 
Date: 1/6/2008 2:47:42 AM
Author: Mara
mmmm christmas pudding. didja bring some of that back from OZ, TG???

another fun american saying... ''panties in a bunch''...!
I thought it was "knickers in a knot" from the UK
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It''s almost 3am...I can''t sleep, but I''d better try!
 
Date: 1/6/2008 2:47:42 AM
Author: Mara
mmmm christmas pudding. didja bring some of that back from OZ, TG???

another fun american saying... ''panties in a bunch''...!
TGuy''s Nanna made two, of which one is still frozen. I will bring it back for you for this Christmas.
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(but only if you keep that cool whip lite away from it. You have to put heaps of brandy custard and double cream on it. I got fat looking at it but blamed it on baby growth).
 
Date: 1/6/2008 2:51:09 AM
Author: risingsun

Date: 1/6/2008 2:47:42 AM
Author: Mara
mmmm christmas pudding. didja bring some of that back from OZ, TG???

another fun american saying... ''panties in a bunch''...!
I thought it was ''knickers in a knot'' from the UK
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It''s almost 3am...I can''t sleep, but I''d better try!
I thought it was knickers in a twist?
 
Surfgirl: "Even if you have special circumstances. Someone recently said she was wanting to get married ASAP because her mom was terminally ill. I can understand wanting to share that moment with a loved one before they pass. I wish that my grandmother could have been alive to hear we got married, she would have had a smile from ear to ear! But in the end, I think she''d be happier knowing I made the right decision when the time was right, rather than getting married earlier, just to have her see me married. Wait, re reading that made me dizzy. Did that make any sense???"


I do believe that''s me. What I also said is that she is ok now and I want to wait until we''re ready, but if I were to receive bad news about her health, I would go to the courthouse with my my family, him and his family so she would get to be there for me. I am her only daughter, and she puts me first in everything, and I know that she would want me taken care of. Ugh that sounds like some f---ing 50s housewife shiz. If it were up to her,and she didn''t have an impending deadline, she wouldn''t have me marry anyone until I was at least 30 and capable of taking care of myself, the way she was. But she also didn''t meet my dad until she was 30 something. One thing I should mention is that her mother finally passed away a week after my mom''s wedding (she was the youngest and last of her ten children to get married) and my mom has always said that she knew she could go because her last child was finally taken care of.

I''m not rushing into marriage and that would be the only case in which I would. Frankly, we''re not financially ready to make that kind of financial commitment, with both of us being students (Me-BA, him-PhD) and neither having a full time income. Having said that, I know that we''ll be together, probably forever because thats just what we have, and thats what we''ve been planning on. The other day he got home from work and was talking about what would happen after his graduation and he said, "You know, we''ll move out of state, and then we''ll get a job..." And I said, "wait, what? We''ll get a job? Am I supposed to be your secretary or something?" and he said, "Well you could be my copy editor or something, but you know, we''re a unit. So I meant me, but you''re there too, obviously." So while I haven''t stopped making fun of him for calling us a "unit" I know that he sees us the same way.

My father is a divorce attorney and has been for 40+ years now. I''ve always been exposed to divorce. I''ve often wondered how my parents do it because they''ve been exposed to it, and exposed their marriage to it for longer than I''ve been around. Anyway, sometimes his receptionists would quit or take a vacation and they would call me to take over for them at the front desk. There is nothing to scare you off of having kids or getting married like working in a divorce attorney''s office. I''ve received death threat calls for attorneys, tried to console hysterical women over the phone, and ignored getting hit on by soon-to-be-divorced men. Because of my father''s occupation I have always been fascinated with relationships, and I''m the person that everyone comes to when they want advice about the subject. Blah, I''m going off on a tangent. I have seen some really nasty shiz, and I know that I never want to go through that. I remember being 22 and having a girl come in for a consultation for a divorce and she looked really young, and I scanned her paperwork-she was 2 days younger than I was. And was dissolving a two year marriage. I couldn''t keep that off my mind for the rest of the day- to be so young and go through a divorce- I thought, wow, why didn''t she wait. And, I''m so glad that''s not me.

So I plan to wait. And I hope that other LIW come here to vent, to get their frustrations off of their chests, and then go on to lead a happy life, discover themselves, become financially stable, and most of all, trust their instincts when it comes to relationships. I''ve read so many girl''s stories on here and some were just heartbreakingly sad, Becky P''s really stands out to me on this, and I couldn''t help but wonder why she wasn''t trusting her instincts. They seemed to be screaming at her from her own words. I hope that anyone else who is newer goes back and reads that, and then considers their own relationship, not looking for signs of guy on guy action, but just mentally goes through every sign and double checks it.

My boyfriend and I had an early conversation about marriage a year or so into our relationship and I told him that I just wanted to plan the wedding and get it over with, so we could continue on with our lives. I wonder sometimes if that''s healthy.

I also wonder if some girls are obsessed with the Disney, the ring, the princess ball gown, and not the happy ever after. I''ve read a lot of the stuff on here, and sometimes it seems like the ring is all they care about-and yeah it''s a jewelry website and we only get to see pieces, but still...it all makes me wonder.

I just hope that none of you ladies out there end up in my dad''s office, because as he has said, "Divorce is the single biggest financial decision you can make in your lifetime, because you have to pay a whole lot of money to get someone out of your life."

And the divorce rate in the USA is around 43%. But take that with a grain of salt, because it''s very VERY difficult thing to measure.

Ugh. Now I''m depressed. Basically my whole post boils down to this: Take your time.

I didn''t mean to go on that long, and what''s sad is that I could keep going. Sorry for the long winded post.
 
How about "panties in a wad"?

Sounds uncomfortable.
 
Date: 1/6/2008 12:48:53 AM
Author: monarch64
Mara, your post makes complete sense as usual.

I''ll contribute a little anecdote from when I first started dating my DH: we''d been dating for ~6 weeks, long-distance, but we spent every weekend together, spoke every night on the phone, and there were absolutely no games (or need for them on either of our parts). I was telling my mother over the phone one day how happy I was with this guy and how much fun we were having together, blah blah blah, and she says to me, ''Heather, you better think about taking some cooking classes or something. Make sure you have plenty to offer this guy because it''s possible he will lose interest after a while'' or something to that effect. I think she brought up the cooking thing because I was 24 at the time and living my single-girl-in-the-city lifestyle and I just wasn''t very proficient in the kitchen. She, OTOH, has been married for oh...34 years and has made my father a freshly home-baked dessert 3-4 times a week all those years, in addition to doing all of the cooking, cleaning, etc. Total housewife, SAHM, you get the picture. But her comment to me was like saying that after the newness wore off our relationship, I wouldn''t have much else to offer someone because I wasn''t the most domestic woman on the planet. When i expressed to her that I was pretty sure he wasn''t just interested in whether I could cook or not, and that if he didn''t like me for what I already had to offer than he could kiss off, she said she''d raised me to be too independent and she worried I''d never get married.
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Sometimes I can''t believe that I was a product of her uterus, really.

The whole attitude of having to be married to feel like you are complete in life has always kind of bothered me...it bothered me even more before I met my DH. I guess I''m just more of a realist than a romantic when it comes to relationships and survival in life...I don''t think I''m completely independent, I definitely feel happier and more fulfilled having a good man by my side and feeling like we have a great future together. But I still don''t buy into the whole idea of engagement/marriage being the ticket to happiness in life. Well, those are my .03 (inflation)...whatever they''re worth.
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And btw, now my mother is totally on the "when are you going to have children" kick.
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Even though my bro and SIL have been married 6+ year now and are just preggo wth their first, my mother still finds it necessary to ask this of me and my DH, who have been married 4 + years. Like we are somehow lagging behind and not doing our part to offer up grandchildren? Ay yi yi.
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Date: 1/5/2008 11:13:56 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 1/5/2008 10:56:03 PM
Author: KimberlyH

I don''t think anything I''ve said contributes to this conversation, but I''ve spent so much time typing it out I''m submitting it anyways!

LOL Kimberly, that is exactly how I was feeling when I hit the submit button!!
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I''m glad I''m not alone.

Rereading what I wrote this morning (my intelligence peeks at about ten a.m. and then it''s all dowhill
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) and comments from others led me to a few connections.

I think it''s because I experienced the pressure from a guy to be married when I wasn''t ready that I sympathize with those on the recieving end of these feelings. The common theme of "hurry up already" like the person who isn''t ready is intentionally making his partner wait, because it''s fun to see him or her unhappy is difficult for me, especially when, like Mara said, the person who''s ready hasn''t even brought the subject up in a constructive manor. Perhaps the partner is just the more cautious of the two, or a bit slower on the uptake. I am a big believer in the common advice given to LIWs in the position of being ready when their b/f is not: tell him what you want, without accusations and anger, come up with a reasonable amount of time (long enough for him to get to think about it thoughtfully without the person waiting becoming resentful), for both of you, so he can figure out if he''s on the same page or you both decide it''s best for both of you to move on. Being in a good relationship means knowing how to work together to come up with solutions that are reasonable to both parties. It''s not always easy, but relationships are give and take, and learning how to do both early on will be so important to having a happy future (whether marriage is involved or not).

I also wonder how many LIWs want to get married simply to be married and it''s less about the guy and more about the act, and having a lifetime companion and a piece of paper to prove it (that piece of paper is meaningful to me as a wife). I have a friend who is like this; I''ve known her for 6 years and there has never been a time when she hasn''t either been looking for a boyfriend, or been with someone and discussing marriage. It''s quite sad because she has been with a man for a few years now, and she isn''t very happy. She''s always wanted children and the last few times we''ve spoken she''s indicated that staying with him means she won''t have kids as she doesn''t think he should be a parent. I think she''s afraid to move on because she''s 36 and feeling like it''s too late to start over and find someone who wants the same things she does and finding that person might not be worth it at this point because in her mind she is getting too the age where she''s too old to have children (her opinion, not mine). I never understood her always-looking-for-a-man mentality; it was like she was seeking out someone to complete her. I guess because after I called off the engagement I figured out that it was so important to learn to be content alone and decided whether or not I got married would never be a factor in my happiness.

In my head I would divide LIWs into two categories, those who seem to live fulfilling lives and are just ready to move on to the next step because they''re in great relationships with the right person for them and then those who simply want to be married. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule but this seems to be the case for most people here, and that I''ve known in real life who could be classified with this moniker.
 
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