The Engagement/Marriage Psychology Thread

[INdmbLove]

This is a bit of a vent:
Well, this seems like a great place to post for me. BF and I have been together for 6 + years (Me- 24 Him-25). We met soon after I started college and have been together through a lot of life changes- namely that transition between college world- real life world was a very difficult one for us. The 2.5 years since we graduated from college have been difficult for us both(careers, repsonsibility changes, finances, just that whole spectrum of growing up stuff) - things are Finally beginning to work out for us both- and we are beginning to save to buy our first house together. Although we are not engaged yet- it is more a priority issue- I''d rather have a house that I own than a huge ring on my finger- if that makes sense. Believe me I love jewelry as much as you all- and I would LOVE to have a ring that would compare to many of the lovelies that I have seen on this board- but knowing the finances of it all- I''d rather have the house and a very modest (100% debt free) ring.

We plan to marry about one year after the house. This is yet another financial issue- we will be paying for probably 90% of our wedding- we have scaled back our dream (when I say we- I mean me

- ha ha) wedding to something that is within our financial limits- and honestly what I have in mind is far better (for our personalities and just generally US) than the extravagant galas that I have dreamt of since I was a little girl watching all of the Disney movies. But once again its a financial issue more than a "are we ready issue"- which is extremely frustrating

So anyways- all of these seemingly rational reasons and semi- well thought out plans should make me very excited- although I keep having these moments of --- OMG-I''m Ready NOW. I have known that he was the guy that I wanted to marry for probably 4-4.5 years- so I just feel like I''ve been waiting for so long- and the thought of waiting another 10-12 mos more to get the ball rolling- just kills me. Maybe this is completely silly- I have the guy, relationship- and I am well on my way to getting (my new plan) exactly what I want- but that doesn''t stop me from being extremely frustrated. I have been trying very hard to enjoy my time as a girlfriend- anticipating all of the exciting events in store for us within the next year-like so many of the ladies have advised the other LIW to do- and it works for a bit- but then I get these moments of - ''THiS SUCKS!- let''s just do it already!''

So anyways- that is my story- analyze away if you would like... but I just needed to get that out off of my chest.

 

[MoonWater]

Not sure if it will be much of a contribution but figured I''d throw my own story into the mix:

I don''t feel much frustration about getting engaged which has a lot to do with knowing it''s coming. However, I also have no problem with communicating and saying exactly how I feel and what I want. So I got a time line worked out upfront which relieved a lot of anxiety I may have felt (it''s hard to deal with the not knowing). Also, I have never been the type to dream of getting married/a wedding. In fact I assumed I would never get married because I never thought I''d stay interested in a person long enough to make that type of commitment. It wasn''t until I met my bf that I started thinking about it. But I was never in a rush because I really wanted divorce to be a last resort and not just a get out of jail free card. I needed to be sure we were on the same page as far as life goals and that we shared similar interest which would have a significant impact on the rest of our lives (and children''s lives).

I empathize with a lot of LIW because I see other people in similar boats. I honestly do not understand when couples are together for 5+ years and no one is talking about marriage when at least one person obviously wants it. Once I realized that I liked the idea of marriage, I would not hesitate to dump a guy if he wasn''t even willing to talk about it.

I don''t feel any external pressures and neither does bf. I think our families know us well enough to know that pressure will not work on us. I have a very strong independent personality and no one in my family wants to fight with me (haha). However, my mother did mention it once, but it was at the 1 year mark and I thought she was crazy (and she never said it to me directly, just to my Aunt). The only pressure I''ve felt recently is the biological clock. But we talked about our future years ago and we came up with a time line which I think works well. Of course, if I were younger, I think I''d hold off on having a kid, but marriage would still be on the same time line. We are approaching the 5 year mark and will be married by the 6.5 year mark (and like another person, I have an ill Aunt and we already decided if her health began to fail we''d get married this year which would be the 5.5 year mark).

For those at the 1-2 year mark. I also feel that this is too soon because it can take many years to really know a person. But at the same time, each individual is different and it''s very hard to judge from what''s posted on a forum. I do always tell the younger girls they should wait a bit because if you know you''re going to be together and have no pressing issues (like the baby deadline), then what''s a couple more years? Obviously that''s my own bias. But I always fear they''ll grow apart and then be forced into a divorce. Not to mention a few ladies here mentioned that the lovey dovey phase ends after 2 years so it''s probably good to see where the chips fall after that point.

All that aside, my biggest frustration has nothing to do with the marriage/engagement itself as I feel completely comfy in my relationship. But I am all about the ring at this point (I''m blaming PS for this). It will be my first major piece of jewelry and I''m extremely excited about it.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/6/2008 10:45:43 AM
Author: KimberlyH

I also wonder how many LIWs want to get married simply to be married and it's less about the guy and more about the act, and having a lifetime companion and a piece of paper to prove it (that piece of paper is meaningful to me as a wife). I have a friend who is like this; I've known her for 6 years and there has never been a time when she hasn't either been looking for a boyfriend, or been with someone and discussing marriage. It's quite sad because she has been with a man for a few years now, and she isn't very happy. She's always wanted children and the last few times we've spoken she's indicated that staying with him means she won't have kids as she doesn't think he should be a parent. I think she's afraid to move on because she's 36 and feeling like it's too late to start over and find someone who wants the same things she does and finding that person might not be worth it at this point because in her mind she is getting too the age where she's too old to have children (her opinion, not mine). I never understood her always-looking-for-a-man mentality; it was like she was seeking out someone to complete her. I guess because after I called off the engagement I figured out that it was so important to learn to be content alone and decided whether or not I got married would never be a factor in my happiness.

This is a very good point! I also see women who seem to want to get married for the sake of being married. And there are the types who can never be alone and move from significant other to significant other. I could never relate because I really enjoy being alone. I even joke that I want my own apartment sometimes (and ultimately hope to buy a house were I can at least get my own room). You must be able to enjoy your own company before you can be good company for other people.

I know a woman right now who is engaged to a man that should not be getting married. He is so full of self-hate, self-doubt and a host of insecurities that he takes it out on other people (including her). I think he needs a few years of therapy. But all she does is talk about wedding planning and buying a dress. I just think the poor guy will fall apart eventually and he may take her down with him. I could never understand how the person closest to him, the one willing to marry him, was not willing to make sure he got the help he needed. It's like she's oblivious to it. Her talking about marriage just seems so absurd to me but it seems to be what she wants most. She also waited 7+ years for it and I think that's why she refuses to acknowledge that it may not be right. The fear of starting over. She'll be turning 30 and her other friends are already married. I think it's more a social status thing for her, which is sad.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 1/6/2008 11:49:05 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 1/6/2008 10:45:43 AM

Author: KimberlyH


I also wonder how many LIWs want to get married simply to be married and it''s less about the guy and more about the act, and having a lifetime companion and a piece of paper to prove it (that piece of paper is meaningful to me as a wife). I have a friend who is like this; I''ve known her for 6 years and there has never been a time when she hasn''t either been looking for a boyfriend, or been with someone and discussing marriage. It''s quite sad because she has been with a man for a few years now, and she isn''t very happy. She''s always wanted children and the last few times we''ve spoken she''s indicated that staying with him means she won''t have kids as she doesn''t think he should be a parent. I think she''s afraid to move on because she''s 36 and feeling like it''s too late to start over and find someone who wants the same things she does and finding that person might not be worth it at this point because in her mind she is getting too the age where she''s too old to have children (her opinion, not mine). I never understood her always-looking-for-a-man mentality; it was like she was seeking out someone to complete her. I guess because after I called off the engagement I figured out that it was so important to learn to be content alone and decided whether or not I got married would never be a factor in my happiness.

This is a very good point! I also see women who seem to want to get married for the sake of being married. And there are the types who can never be alone and move from significant other to significant other. I could never relate because I really enjoy being alone. I even joke that I want my own apartment sometimes (and ultimately hope to buy a house were I can at least get my own room). You must be able to enjoy your own company before you can be good company for other people.


I know a woman right now who is engaged to a man that should not be getting married. He is so full of self-hate, self-doubt and a host of insecurities that he takes it out on other people (including her). I think he needs a few years of therapy. But all she does is talk about wedding planning and buying a dress. I just think the poor guy will fall apart eventually and he may take her down with him. I could never understand how the person closest to him, the one willing to marry him, was not willing to make sure he got the help he needed. It''s like she''s oblivious to it. Her talking about marriage just seems so absurd to me but it seems to be what she wants most. She also waited 7+ years for it and I think that''s why she refuses to acknowledge that it may not be right. The fear of starting over. She''ll be turning 30 and her other friends are already married. I think it''s more a social status thing for her, which is sad.

Oh my gosh, I was thinking the same exact thing! I can''t handle these girls who always have to be in a relationship. My best friend from high school is like that, she''s had a boyfriend constantly from Junior year until pretty much now. She moved to Florida with one boyfriend, broke up with him for another boyfriend, got engaged, moved back here to NM for a couple of weeks when she called off the engagement (which was a farce because she never planned on actually going through with it), then moved to Cali and almost immediately started dating this other guy. Then she had a few years with him, her mom gave him a ring to ask her to marry him but she ended up breaking it off-for another guy again! Even though she knew a ring was coming, perhaps even because she knew... Then she dated that guy for a couple of months when he dumped her on her @$$-AND THEN she started talking to the guy she was kind of engaged to in Florida-saying they were dating again and she was going to move back out there... And it makes me sad. Why can''t she be alone? What is so wrong with being alone for a while? But at the same time I think perhaps she''s afraid of commitment, probably because of her mom who is on her 3rd marriage and has NEVER been happy alone. She''s upping the divorce rate by herself...I just hope my friend doesn''t do the same.

I know that I was alone for almost two years and I was perfectly happy-dealing with school and not having to worry about another person''s happiness. But then I let other people''s insecurities get to me, and I ended up in an awful relationship for a couple of months that I had no business being in in the first place. The point is, I realized in that two years that I could be by myself, I could have friends, entertain myself, do things that helped fulfill who I was/am as a person and most of all BE HAPPY by myself. Unfortunately there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that have made me think about what would happen if I suddenly had to be alone now- and my resulting thoughts on the subject are that I would be fine. Given enough time to grieve the relationship and the person I know that I would be happy once again someday.

Extenuating circumstances=open heart surgery for my bf in summer 2006, and then again in ten to 15 years and again and again...probably for the rest of his life unless all those amazing doctors out there come up with a permanent fix.

I don''t understand these women who can''t be alone. I just don''t deal well with it. Gets my panties in a wad.

 

[MissErin]

Date: 1/6/2008 2:08:43 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 1/6/2008 11:49:05 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 1/6/2008 10:45:43 AM

Author: KimberlyH


I also wonder how many LIWs want to get married simply to be married and it''s less about the guy and more about the act, and having a lifetime companion and a piece of paper to prove it (that piece of paper is meaningful to me as a wife). I have a friend who is like this; I''ve known her for 6 years and there has never been a time when she hasn''t either been looking for a boyfriend, or been with someone and discussing marriage. It''s quite sad because she has been with a man for a few years now, and she isn''t very happy. She''s always wanted children and the last few times we''ve spoken she''s indicated that staying with him means she won''t have kids as she doesn''t think he should be a parent. I think she''s afraid to move on because she''s 36 and feeling like it''s too late to start over and find someone who wants the same things she does and finding that person might not be worth it at this point because in her mind she is getting too the age where she''s too old to have children (her opinion, not mine). I never understood her always-looking-for-a-man mentality; it was like she was seeking out someone to complete her. I guess because after I called off the engagement I figured out that it was so important to learn to be content alone and decided whether or not I got married would never be a factor in my happiness.

This is a very good point! I also see women who seem to want to get married for the sake of being married. And there are the types who can never be alone and move from significant other to significant other. I could never relate because I really enjoy being alone. I even joke that I want my own apartment sometimes (and ultimately hope to buy a house were I can at least get my own room). You must be able to enjoy your own company before you can be good company for other people.


I know a woman right now who is engaged to a man that should not be getting married. He is so full of self-hate, self-doubt and a host of insecurities that he takes it out on other people (including her). I think he needs a few years of therapy. But all she does is talk about wedding planning and buying a dress. I just think the poor guy will fall apart eventually and he may take her down with him. I could never understand how the person closest to him, the one willing to marry him, was not willing to make sure he got the help he needed. It''s like she''s oblivious to it. Her talking about marriage just seems so absurd to me but it seems to be what she wants most. She also waited 7+ years for it and I think that''s why she refuses to acknowledge that it may not be right. The fear of starting over. She''ll be turning 30 and her other friends are already married. I think it''s more a social status thing for her, which is sad.

Oh my gosh, I was thinking the same exact thing! I can''t handle these girls who always have to be in a relationship. My best friend from high school is like that, she''s had a boyfriend constantly from Junior year until pretty much now. She moved to Florida with one boyfriend, broke up with him for another boyfriend, got engaged, moved back here to NM for a couple of weeks when she called off the engagement (which was a farce because she never planned on actually going through with it), then moved to Cali and almost immediately started dating this other guy. Then she had a few years with him, her mom gave him a ring to ask her to marry him but she ended up breaking it off-for another guy again! Even though she knew a ring was coming, perhaps even because she knew... Then she dated that guy for a couple of months when he dumped her on her @$$-AND THEN she started talking to the guy she was kind of engaged to in Florida-saying they were dating again and she was going to move back out there... And it makes me sad. Why can''t she be alone? What is so wrong with being alone for a while? But at the same time I think perhaps she''s afraid of commitment, probably because of her mom who is on her 3rd marriage and has NEVER been happy alone. She''s upping the divorce rate by herself...I just hope my friend doesn''t do the same.

I know that I was alone for almost two years and I was perfectly happy-dealing with school and not having to worry about another person''s happiness. But then I let other people''s insecurities get to me, and I ended up in an awful relationship for a couple of months that I had no business being in in the first place. The point is, I realized in that two years that I could be by myself, I could have friends, entertain myself, do things that helped fulfill who I was/am as a person and most of all BE HAPPY by myself. Unfortunately there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that have made me think about what would happen if I suddenly had to be alone now- and my resulting thoughts on the subject are that I would be fine. Given enough time to grieve the relationship and the person I know that I would be happy once again someday.

Extenuating circumstances=open heart surgery for my bf in summer 2006, and then again in ten to 15 years and again and again...probably for the rest of his life unless all those amazing doctors out there come up with a permanent fix.

I don''t understand these women who can''t be alone. I just don''t deal well with it. Gets my panties in a wad.

I am not one to stick up for this type of person BUT I was watching a program the other day that said doctors have now diagnosed this kind of behavior as "love sickness". (I know is sounds fake) They say that certain people, 2% of the populationis, if I remember correctly, part of this new study. The are perpetual daters/relationship sick. They require people to be their boyfriend/girlfriend and grow VERY depressed when not in a relationship. YIKES!! There was also a new program (to which I giggles at) called the "12 Step Program for Love Sickness". They literally go through as process that very closely fits AA to break them of the sickness. Kind of interesting...

 

[chizzy1982]

This is a really interesting thread so i thought i would share my experiences
I''m 25 and have just celebrated my first anniversary with my BF and i know a proposal is coming in the next few months and I''m SO excited! It hasn''t been an easy year as BF lived and worked abroad, however very early on our relationship i became ill and was taken into hospital. He immediately flew back, moved himself into my flat and has been taking care of me ever since. Prior to meeting BF i was a " I don''t need a man" kinda girl! I had just bought my own place, had a stable job and was really enjoying being on my own and finding out who I really was - then BAM! - i met him and everything changed.

Yes there are some days when, as i know a proposal is coming, i wish he would do it already. But i feel this is more to do with me wanting to "officially" start our lives together rather than wanting the status of being engaged. I don''t really care about what ring i get, or how big the day is - I just want to be able to call him my husband and for me to be his wife. I want to be able to do silly things llike get a joint account and change my name to his on my driving licence. I know some people feel it is too soon and we shoud take our time, my sister included ( she has been with her BF 6+ years with no sign of an engagement). My parents got engaged 9 weeks after first meeting eachother and are still happily married 32 years later. I remember my mum telling me this and i exclaimed that it was totally irresponsible to get engaged so quickly - her response was " darling when you know, you know" and as usual she was right!!

I know everybody''s situation is dfferent but i feel the reason i don''t get engagement anxiety is that I know he is going to do it. All i feel is loads of pent up excitement! We are on the same page, so to speak, in terms of we both want the same things from this relationship and we both have the same time scales in mind. We talk openly about our future together and have done since the early stages of our relationship. I do understand though how it must be so frustrating if one party wants something and the other isn''t quite there yet and i guess these feelings of frustration can led to the anxiety some of the ladies here have been experiencing.

I don''t know if i have contributed anything i just wanted to share.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 1/6/2008 2:22:41 PM
Author: MissErin

Date: 1/6/2008 2:08:43 PM

Author: FrekeChild

Date: 1/6/2008 11:49:05 AM

Author: MoonWater

Date: 1/6/2008 10:45:43 AM


Author: KimberlyH



I also wonder how many LIWs want to get married simply to be married and it''s less about the guy and more about the act, and having a lifetime companion and a piece of paper to prove it (that piece of paper is meaningful to me as a wife). I have a friend who is like this; I''ve known her for 6 years and there has never been a time when she hasn''t either been looking for a boyfriend, or been with someone and discussing marriage. It''s quite sad because she has been with a man for a few years now, and she isn''t very happy. She''s always wanted children and the last few times we''ve spoken she''s indicated that staying with him means she won''t have kids as she doesn''t think he should be a parent. I think she''s afraid to move on because she''s 36 and feeling like it''s too late to start over and find someone who wants the same things she does and finding that person might not be worth it at this point because in her mind she is getting too the age where she''s too old to have children (her opinion, not mine). I never understood her always-looking-for-a-man mentality; it was like she was seeking out someone to complete her. I guess because after I called off the engagement I figured out that it was so important to learn to be content alone and decided whether or not I got married would never be a factor in my happiness.

This is a very good point! I also see women who seem to want to get married for the sake of being married. And there are the types who can never be alone and move from significant other to significant other. I could never relate because I really enjoy being alone. I even joke that I want my own apartment sometimes (and ultimately hope to buy a house were I can at least get my own room). You must be able to enjoy your own company before you can be good company for other people.



I know a woman right now who is engaged to a man that should not be getting married. He is so full of self-hate, self-doubt and a host of insecurities that he takes it out on other people (including her). I think he needs a few years of therapy. But all she does is talk about wedding planning and buying a dress. I just think the poor guy will fall apart eventually and he may take her down with him. I could never understand how the person closest to him, the one willing to marry him, was not willing to make sure he got the help he needed. It''s like she''s oblivious to it. Her talking about marriage just seems so absurd to me but it seems to be what she wants most. She also waited 7+ years for it and I think that''s why she refuses to acknowledge that it may not be right. The fear of starting over. She''ll be turning 30 and her other friends are already married. I think it''s more a social status thing for her, which is sad.

Oh my gosh, I was thinking the same exact thing! I can''t handle these girls who always have to be in a relationship. My best friend from high school is like that, she''s had a boyfriend constantly from Junior year until pretty much now. She moved to Florida with one boyfriend, broke up with him for another boyfriend, got engaged, moved back here to NM for a couple of weeks when she called off the engagement (which was a farce because she never planned on actually going through with it), then moved to Cali and almost immediately started dating this other guy. Then she had a few years with him, her mom gave him a ring to ask her to marry him but she ended up breaking it off-for another guy again! Even though she knew a ring was coming, perhaps even because she knew... Then she dated that guy for a couple of months when he dumped her on her @$$-AND THEN she started talking to the guy she was kind of engaged to in Florida-saying they were dating again and she was going to move back out there... And it makes me sad. Why can''t she be alone? What is so wrong with being alone for a while? But at the same time I think perhaps she''s afraid of commitment, probably because of her mom who is on her 3rd marriage and has NEVER been happy alone. She''s upping the divorce rate by herself...I just hope my friend doesn''t do the same.


I know that I was alone for almost two years and I was perfectly happy-dealing with school and not having to worry about another person''s happiness. But then I let other people''s insecurities get to me, and I ended up in an awful relationship for a couple of months that I had no business being in in the first place. The point is, I realized in that two years that I could be by myself, I could have friends, entertain myself, do things that helped fulfill who I was/am as a person and most of all BE HAPPY by myself. Unfortunately there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that have made me think about what would happen if I suddenly had to be alone now- and my resulting thoughts on the subject are that I would be fine. Given enough time to grieve the relationship and the person I know that I would be happy once again someday.


Extenuating circumstances=open heart surgery for my bf in summer 2006, and then again in ten to 15 years and again and again...probably for the rest of his life unless all those amazing doctors out there come up with a permanent fix.


I don''t understand these women who can''t be alone. I just don''t deal well with it. Gets my panties in a wad.

I am not one to stick up for this type of person BUT I was watching a program the other day that said doctors have now diagnosed this kind of behavior as ''love sickness''. (I know is sounds fake) They say that certain people, 2% of the population is, if I remember correctly, part of this new study. The are perpetual daters/relationship sick. They require people to be their boyfriend/girlfriend and grow VERY depressed when not in a relationship. YIKES!! There was also a new program (to which I giggles at) called the ''12 Step Program for Love Sickness''. They literally go through as process that very closely fits AA to break them of the sickness. Kind of interesting...

OH MY GOD.

I can''t tell you how disturbing that is to me. What channel was this on?

 

[hearts-arrows_girl]

Date: 1/5/2008 6:44:59 PM
Author: thing2of2
Well I won't get super psychological, but I think that most LsIW should think about a few things before they get frustrated and upset.

1. Communication is the most important aspect of a relationship. If you feel like you can't communicate with your boyfriend about important things like your future together, maybe you shouldn't be getting married just yet. In a healthy relationship, you should be able to talk about pretty much anything with each other.

2. It's important to remember that you are in control of your own destiny. You don't have to wait around indefinitely for a guy to propose. If he knows you desperately want to get married but he won't propose, he may not be the right guy for you.

3. Think about why you want to be married. Is it only because you want to be in a more committed relationship with your boyfriend? Or are you feeling pressured by your friends/family/society?

4. Listen to your intuition. Do you think he is ready for marriage? Or is he just telling you he's planning on proposing eventually to keep you around?

I, like most others here, love this post!
Yet another type of LIW?...sometimes the ones who are feeling the most anxious and frustrated, are the ones who feel like their partners (men or women) are not emotionally invested in them enough or at all. Sadly, they feel that if a guy marries you, he must love you or at least may in time. Boy, can this be NOT the outcome sometimes. The only thing worse than not getting your "lukewarm commitment" guy to marry you, is getting him to marry you, and him still not being "that into you". A guy can take the marriage step for MANY other not so great reasons, ie..you are pregnant, he has been with you sooo long, that he owes it to you, or worse yet, he doesn't want to lose you, but doesn't really feel or can't feel the right feelings for you, so he marries you hoping the feeling will come. The same seems true when someone is dying to live with the their guy and the their guy is putting it off. I guess my point is, they are using the engagement card as a strong stepping stone to the marriage thing, in hopes of the guy suddenly changing and filling more of their emotional needs. Ironically enough, engagement does not guarantee marriage, it also can be used as another means of making someone wait. A well intentioned engagement is best when accompanied by a set "Wedding Date". I think we have read over and over, things from girls, that we all chimed in and said "this girl needs to be more independant and get a life of her own". Girls who are happy with or without a guy seem to get what they want alot easier than a girl who "can't seem to tie their guy down", not just in marriage, but in any serious well-functioning relationship. I remember there was a book titled "He's just not that into you". I hear alot of girls who's guys are dragging their heels, mention how they do everything for him, and always make their guy the center of their world, and can't figure out why he won't "repay" them with the same acts of love. It's like the less the guy gives, the more they do for them (sort of love bribery). Sad, but true for some. I think people feel anxiety over being unable to make their man do what they want, rather than "Hey I should be married".
A few good books to read if you are waiting are: Venus and Mars on a Date, The Rules I & II, and Getting to I Do. All have chapters relating to getting him to take the plunge along with self help ideas that can make you stronger and more self reliant. Thus making you either more suitable for marriage or able to play the waiting game with less anxiety and a feeling of control over your life. You'll agree and disagree with parts of all the books, but the reading can take your mind off of him for awhile.

 

[chizzy1982]

Hearts and Arrow Girl I feel your post was spot on

I know of a someone very close to me who is in a long term relationship with no sign an engagement. I know she is desperate to be engaged and has been for years but he is not ready. She has said that if there is no hint of it coming in the next year she will leave him, however he is her life and i doubt she will follow through on this. They are both strong willed peolpe and i worry this will ultimately lead to the breakdown of the relationship.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 1/6/2008 2:08:43 PM
Author: FrekeChild


I know that I was alone for almost two years and I was perfectly happy-dealing with school and not having to worry about another person's happiness. But then I let other people's insecurities get to me, and I ended up in an awful relationship for a couple of months that I had no business being in in the first place. The point is, I realized in that two years that I could be by myself, I could have friends, entertain myself, do things that helped fulfill who I was/am as a person and most of all BE HAPPY by myself.

See, that's the thing. Being by yourself can be so much fun. I sometimes miss being single for that very reason. Not worrying about another person's happiness. Not saying it's a major issue at all now (I still want my own room haha), but I think it's important to have a stage of focusing on yourself and doing for yourself in order to even understand yourself. I went through this really depressing period where people I thought were friends were pieces of crap and I just felt down on myself for being stupid. I just picked myself back up, went back to school, starting focusing on enhancing myself as a person. I always figured, you don't meet the right people if you aren't right yourself. If you focus on things that are truly important to you, and care about you, in that process you are bound to run into the type of friends and significant others who are worthy. Incidentally, I met my current bf and the only man I've ever considered marrying during that time. But if I didn't have that time alone, I'm not sure I would have worked out my own personal kinks (not that I'm kink free

)

And MissErin...I had NO idea that was a legit condition. Is it treatable? ETA: Never mind, the 12 step program LOL

 

[Mannequin]

This is really an intriguing thread, ladies. Great posts thus far! What I most appreciate is the honest look at the factors behind wanting to be engaged or married - no excuses, no b.s. here. I can contribute my own experience, but not much else as I have few close friends and of these girls only one is engaged at this time. I''ve gone through quite the odyssey in my personal life in the past year and a half, as many of you know, so some of this may be a recap.

I started dating my ex in 2002 when we were doing our last year in undergrad. It was an online setup and we were very good for each other and to each other at the time. We dated long distance but still saw each other at least twice a week (he lived an hour away on campus). I began substitute teaching and looking for a teaching job right after graduation and he went on to law school. I was able to land my teaching position in June of 2005 and moved into my first apartment, a true adult step for me and one that I handled well. I was feeling the pressure of wanting to be engaged after dating for so long and with the completion of his law degree coming, but I didn''t start feeling it really badly until the winter of 2005. I see now that I probably shouldn''t have bought into the pressure to be engaged that my family and his family and our friends kept throwing at us, but at the time I didn''t know any better. I thought we were going to be together forever, and had no idea that he would change his mind about everything we had been discussing as a couple for so long - kids, buying a house, setting up retirement, etc. Looking back, he only did law school because it was what everyone in his family and circle of friends thought he should do.

After completing his law degree, he proposed in May of 2006, again something that he felt everyone wanted him to do, including me. When we moved in together in June of 2006, beginning our fourth year together, things still looked good for us. I helped support him through his studying for the Bar exam and his job search that summer, and when he finally started his job and began working I thought we were good to go. Stress over being at his first real job combined with his own personal emotional issues eventually became too great a strain on the couple we were trying to be. I couldn''t continue with the wedding planning or the shared living arrangement because he was bringing all this turmoil into my home life, and before too long the relationship crumbled before our eyes. I moved him out of the apartment we shared on New Year''s Day last year and haven''t given him a second thought other than to wish him well.

I spent a whole spring and summer getting back into the dating scene and figuring out what I wanted again, not settling for anything less than what I deserved, while also setting my life in order as I should have been by buying a condo and going back to school. I even leased a cute convertible car in July, only because I wanted it! I met a lot of guys and most of them weren''t sure what to make of me - they saw a woman who had the guts to call everything off and kick the guy out as a threat, possibly? - and so they were hesitant to go for anything deeper than casual dating. After a few months as a swinging single, I knew that I really wanted someone who had his head on straight and had his own future in mind, someone who was settled and comfortable in his career, someone who wanted kids and was at a place in his life where he was ready to consider marriage. I didn''t want someone who was still stuck assembling the thousand piece puzzle of life - I wanted to be the missing piece.

Fast forward to now - I met my BF through Match.com in June and we began dating in July, becoming an official couple late that month. He had been in 2 long term relationships before me, spanning about 7 years, and in each case they could not last because he knew in his heart he did not have the right person. His exes were very similar - content with jobs that did not require college, demanding that he would be the primary provider, and not much interest in becoming a better person on any level. He is 29 and truly wants to be in a relationship leading to marriage, as he is ready for that step. He is successful in his career, he has fulfilling hobbies and goals and family relationships, and he just needed that missing piece - me. I am a fully self-sufficient adult with a good job and many hobbies and interests, capable of being totally independent as needed. He and I complement each other in so many ways, and if there was ever a situation with "right people, right timing", it would be us meeting this summer. He and I both agree about how "right" everything feels between us, even after just under 6 months. I feel none of the LIW anxiety with him that I felt with my ex years ago. I feel calm and at ease with him, as I just know that he is the person I was supposed to marry in the first place. He seems to feel more anxiety over engagement than I do - he''s expressed that he feels like since I read up on proposals on these boards all the time, he has to come up with something amazing! LOL - but at the same time he is very excited to make me a permanent fixture in his life. I''ve already gone through the wedding planning stress and I am not too keen on revisiting it, but I will because I know it will be different this time with the right person, he wants this to happen, and I know my mom will be more than willing to pitch in.

After having these experiences, if I could give any advice to the LIW posters on this forum, it would be this:

1) Know yourself. Truly be in touch with what kind of a person you are and what kind of a person you want to be. Knowing your own mind and what makes you happy, what dreams make you smile, and what scares you to death will make you more able to share these thoughts and ideas with others.

2) Make YOU your biggest priority. There is more to life than a diamond ring, personal fulfillment is what your focus should be. Maybe it''s taking college courses, maybe it''s learning a skill or taking time to meditate or exercise... Take care of yourself. You have so much to offer and you have so many dreams that have value - pursue your goals and become the best person you can be. It will only benefit the person you choose to embrace as your husband later when you take the time now to fully realize your own goals.

3) Keep the lines of communication open. If you are in a relationship with the person you want to be with forever, you owe it to that person to be 110% open and honest about everything you are thinking. Don''t expect that poor fellow to read your mind or anticipate your every move. If at any point you feel you are getting anything less than honest and truthful actions or feedback from this person, you are allowed to walk away.

 

[INdmbLove]

equestrienne
wow- thanks for sharing your story- The little tips at the bottom- namely take care of yourself- really hit home- and I am beginning to make a mental list of some things that I could do to better myself. I agree a little "self love" goes a long way and I think I''m in some need of that!

 

[miss_flo]

Like most behavioral traits, I think the way a woman approaches marriage depends heavily on her environment. The factors that strike me as most influential on a woman''s LIW anxiety are the following:

1) Location - What region of the country/world she lives in.
2) Family - Ethnicity, religion, childhood, etc.
3) Employment - The industry a woman works in.

I''m 23 and a journalist in California. The majority of my co-workers are in their 30''s and both childless and unmarried. Our industry is one of backstabbing and lone wolf mentality - we are scrappy, cynical and fierce and we don''t like traditional ideas of nuclear families and white picket fences. My co-workers spend their nights still in college party mode.

On the flip side, I come from a military family with traditional religious values. I''m kind of a hybrid of old and new school when it comes to the idea of marriage - and that''s mainly because my fears were calmed by my boyfriend months ago when he told me he absolutely wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. *Big sigh of relief*

Believe me when I say that I DEFINITELY had my frantic, childish meltdowns a few months ago...in private. I''m a military girlfriend, and the boy asked me to move with him to his next assignment. We''ve already lived together for almost 2 years, so it wasn''t the moving part that scared me...it was the sacrifice. I''m leaving behind work, friends and family for him. After "the talk," any doubts and fears I had subsided, and now I''m totally at peace with waiting for his proposal. Next month, next year, whatever.

The moral of this story is, if "the talk" needs to happen, do it soon and save yourself the drama. I hate how some girls expect their boyfriends to dictate the path of their relationship for the sake of some traditional bullshit sense of "chivalry." Your boyfriend won''t find it so romantic when you have a freakout as he''s buying himself a new motorcycle instead of a ring, because you assumed he was reading your mind and your "fairytale" proposal was coming soon. Just communicate, for goodness sake

 

[baby monster]

Date: 1/5/2008 6:40:48 PM
Author: surfgirl

ETA: TGal, for me too, marriage was taken very very seriously and I also feel much different being his wife, than being his long term SO. I didn't think it would feel different after such a long time but it does, in a good way...I also wonder about people hopping into marriage if they couldn't get out of it as easily.

Surfgirl, why do you feel different being a wife rather than a long-term SO? I'm interested in the evolution of your thoughts and feeling on the subject as you moved from being happy in a LTR to wanting legal marriage. The question is for my personal reflection because I'm feeling a lot of societal pressure to be legally married. I'm in a 9yr LTR. My SO and I see each other as life partners. We've said out vows to each other and consider ourselves married in the spiritual sense of that word, so I don't really see how letting the government know that 2 people want to be together makes any difference inside the relationship. Again, my question is purely for my reflection and if you can provide any thoughts on this, it'd be great.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 1/6/2008 6:40:50 PM
Author: baby monster

Date: 1/5/2008 6:40:48 PM

Author: surfgirl


ETA: TGal, for me too, marriage was taken very very seriously and I also feel much different being his wife, than being his long term SO. I didn't think it would feel different after such a long time but it does, in a good way...I also wonder about people hopping into marriage if they couldn't get out of it as easily.

Surfgirl, why do you feel different being a wife rather than a long-term SO? I'm interested in the evolution of your thoughts and feeling on the subject as you moved from being happy in a LTR to wanting legal marriage. The question is for my personal reflection because I'm feeling a lot of societal pressure to be legally married. I'm in a 9yr LTR. My SO and I see each other as life partners. We've said out vows to each other and consider ourselves married in the spiritual sense of that word, so I don't really see how letting the government know that 2 people want to be together makes any difference inside the relationship. Again, my question is purely for my reflection and if you can provide any thoughts on this, it'd be great.

babymonster, for me, it's never been about consciously NOT marrying. You said that you and your partner have said vows to each other and consider each other your life's partner. That's different than my situation because we'd never said any vows to each other, and even though Mr. Surf often said he "felt married", neither of us knew what that really felt like so we really hadn't taken the steps towards expressing our commitment to each other quite as you probably have already. I know many people CHOOSE to be in a LTR and not legally married for any number of personal reasons, and I'm totally fine with that decision as long as both parties are really okay with it (I know a couple of women in such situations, but if they're being really honest, they're in LTRs because they want to be with the guy, but he's the one who doesn't want to get married, but deep down, they both really want to). For me/us, a lot of it was more about not being "sure", but being very happy together. For him I think there probably was an element of fear that if we "changed" the relationship and got married, that I might change, take him for granted, expect him to stay home with me all the time rather than do things he likes to do alone (we both require a lot of alone time), etc. All things that we've both seen happen to quite a few people we know who've gotten married. And I think for me the "you just know" mentality was problematic...it's a bit too Disneyesque for me and yet, I felt like I'd been told that since I was little, "you'll just know" and I dont think everyone "just knows" when they first meet their mate that s/he's the one for them. And to be honest, the older one gets without never having been married, I think the more one searches for signs of "is this the one for me and if so, shouldn't I just know?!" I think we both felt that IF we got married ever, we wanted it to last so we were overly cautious and perhaps that's based on our marrying later in life...For example, say you get into a tiff or there's something that your SO does that bugs the crap out of you...you start questioning if this is for you. We're conditioned to think that we should live blissfully forever in fairytale land when we meet "the one" so if you're older and never been married and you have a moment of "what was I thinking?" (and I mean for something like perpetual farting or some guy thing that most guys do, not something serious) you often dont realize that those feelings are totally normal for most married couples. I started asking my married friends "do you ever look at your husband and think 'what was I thinking marrying him'?!?" and they all said, "Hell yeah! He does this and that and it bugs the crap out of me! But then I remember why I love him..." I didn't realize that not feeling lovey dovey in fairytale land 100% of the time was normal. Or that you could dislike something your spouse does - some weird habit for example - and that doesn't mean that he's not the one for you. I needed to learn that, sadly, because that's what girls are spoon-fed from the time we're little girls - at least here in the US.

In addition to second guessing ourselves, my career choices were an issue for me. I travel a lot for work, often for 1-3 months at a time and always overseas. So we've had plenty of time away from each other where I'd think, well, if I want to pursue my work overseas full time I have to move overseas, and since he cannot join me because his work is here, then perhaps I shouldn't marry him. That was a huge factor for me. We'd also decided together to get couples counseling because we felt like we wanted to be together but we couldn't work out some of our issues. We ended up seeing the same counselor individually - to work on our individual issues, most of which centered around improving communication - and then we'd go together at key points in time as well. It helped tremendously for both of us and I attribute the communication skills we learned in counseling to our ultimate decision that yes, we did want to make a commitment to each other and in the end, it turns out we're both very old school and we decided we wanted to get married in order to honor making that commitment. That just felt right for us.

So that's how we went from LTR to married couple. But to get back to your highlighted portion of my past post, being married does indeed feel different to me/us. We feel like more of a team now. Like we're really "together" and we're making our way through this thing called "Life" and we can rely on each other 100%. Before we got married I could always entertain "leaving" but now, with the commitment I made to him, I know I have to work out things when they get tough. It's just different. But in a good way!

Hope that long winded post answers your questions...!

PS: I'm wondering though, if you're content in a LTR without being legally married, why are you hanging around on the LIW forum of a site that's geared towards engagement rings? What I'm asking is, are you really okay with not being married? If you are, then good for you! But if you're not, then it's time to have that talk...And for the record, it's okay to change your mind either way, god knows I changed mine enough!

 

[TravelingGal]

Surfgirl, I agree that as I got older, I questioned a lot more if this was the person for me. Actually, it was more "is this the person I want to give up my freedom for? I like my life!"

For me, being a wife feels different because I value marriage. For those that feel like it''s just a piece of paper, maybe they wouldn''t feel the way I do. But I''m conservative enough to feel that marriage is special, sacred, and not something to enter in lightly. Marriage vows within our ceremony were a very big deal for me. Maybe I am too much a traditionalist in that sense...

 

[baby monster]

Date: 1/6/2008 7:46:42 PM
Author: surfgirl

PS: I'm wondering though, if you're content in a LTR without being legally married, why are you hanging around on the LIW forum of a site that's geared towards engagement rings? What I'm asking is, are you really okay with not being married? If you are, then good for you! But if you're not, then it's time to have that talk...And for the record, it's okay to change your mind either way, god knows I changed mine enough!

Thanks for your answer. I'm always curious how life experiences change one's view of the world.

As far as hanging out here, there are couple of reasons. One, people quite often imply that I'm missing something because I'm not married. So I read postings here to see what the women who really want to be married are looking for or expecting from marriage and the replies from married women.
The other, I've lived through some of the angst that LIWs here post about. I look back at that time of my life and actually welcome being older! Time has given me the luxury to realize what I want for myself in a relationship is not what my parents/friends/coworkers/random strangers/society tell me I should want. Sometimes I wish I can share this knowledge to help women on the LIW forum but unfortunately it can't be done. Nobody could explain to me back then, I just had to live through it.

ETA: as for erings - it is purely the love all things bling! In fact, your ering made me fall in love with OECs.

 

[surfgirl]

Glad my rambling post made some semblance of sense! And I totally get your reasoning for hanging here. I think you should totally express your experiences to some LIWs when you think it might add something to their way of thinking. You''ve obviously come to value with YOU want, not what society wants you to want, and that''s an awesome thing to know about yourself!

 

[tberube]

Great thread, Surf!

What is it with women, right? Well...frankly my answer is "other women." We''re all bred into this expectation by our mothers, sisters, friends, aunts, movies and television to find a man and be good enough that he''ll want to marry you. It''s almost like if you can''t get a man to fall so madly in love with you that he wants to marry you, then there''s something wrong with you. Like you have scabies or something. It''s totally ridiculous and it took me a long time to admit that I was just a victim of this preposterous ideality.

As said, I agree about the timeline so many women have of being married before the age of thirty - and I will be honest in admitting that I felt the same way for myself. Most of my friends were married by the time we were all 24 and the rest were married by 27. I spent the majority of my 20''s with another guy, and after seven years it was obvious the relationship was going nowhere and the only reason I was staying was because I was hoping for a proposal. At that point it would have been a forced marriage, just so that I could be married before leaving my twenties. Ugh. Well - I finally came to my senses and did the hardest thing ever (leaving a man, and a condo, and becoming single again instead of engaged).

Low and behold - mere months after making that decision I found I was in love with my best friend, and he proposed to me three years later! I knew this one was right and I didn''t have to do (too much) asking and poking about when it would happen. And after all the worrying, I''m still going to be married before I''m thirty - but not because I forced it to happen.

 

[EricaR]

First, please please please don't judge all of us OC girls by that horrible Real Housewives show. Please. I can't stand those women...

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now and feel like I had to respond. Not sure if I am adding anything worthwhile, but I've been doing a lot of thinking and wanted to throw it out there.

I agree with a lot of people that societal and family pressures play a huge role in pushing girls to want to get married. My parents have two kids - my younger sister is 25 and I am 27. In my dad's family my sister is the only grandchild out of 8 without any sort of college degree, but my mom's family is the opposite - I am the only grandchild out of 10 that has a college degree. On my mom's side of the family people tend to get married young and start having kids right away. I certainly felt this pressure starting from the second I graduated from high school. It started off pretty mild with questions from my grandmother about why I hadn't "picked a young man to settle down with", but eventually it got awful. When I graduated from college my grandmother actually came up to me and told me that out of her 10 grandchildren I was her biggest disappointment because I wasn't already married and reproducing. This was the last time I spoke with my grandmother. The pressure to get married was there from the time I was a little kid, both overt (the comments from my grandmother) and subtle (my mom used to dress me up as a bride for every Halloween).

In some threads on LIW I read comments from women who have clearly been under the same pressures as I have. In my case, I think moving away from home and living on my own for a few years really let me get to know who I am and what I want, something I don't think I could have done if I was still living with or near my parents. A good chunk of those years on my own was spent dating men who were wrong for me for a wide variety of reasons. Even though some of those relationships were horrible I learned so much about myself from them and am so grateful to each of the guys I dated because they helped me become who I am today. I learned that:

1. The base of any relationship needs to be communication. If you can’t talk about something like getting engaged, how do you expect to be able to talk about the big life decisions that will inevitably come up?

2. Don’t lose yourself in the relationship! Each of you is an individual and should function as such. One of the main reasons I think my relationship right now is so strong is that we do have common interests, but each of us also has our own things and can happily spend time apart doing those things. Ken goes out every weekend to play role playing games with groups of friends, I go to knitting groups and quilting classes. We even have “separate” rooms – he has his office in the spare bedroom and can go in there if and when he needs alone time. And I have no problem with that. In fact, I’ve been known to ask him to go in there if I need alone time. I even go a little crazy if his buddies don’t play their game for a few weekends. I rely on that alone time and enjoy it so much, even if all I do is sit around the house.

3. A relationship needs to be give and take. If the two of you are in it together, whenever you make a decision that impacts the other person you need to keep that in mind.

There have been some posts lately from women who are hoping for a proposal but who also say that they have no idea if their partner is ready. I have to restrain myself from posting and pointing out how ridiculous that is. I am the first to admit that I am not an old fashioned romantic, but I really don’t see the point of a surprise proposal. Marriage is something that you need to talk about BEFORE you get engaged; you need to make sure both people are on the same page or else you will be waiting forever! I can’t imagine how horrified I would be if Ken proposed to me before we half discussed it. I’m not saying that the actual proposal and/or ring can’t be a surprise, but make sure it is actually coming before you start waiting for it.

I hope I made sense since I feel like I just rambled on and on…

 

[baby monster]

Date: 1/6/2008 8:01:37 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Surfgirl, I agree that as I got older, I questioned a lot more if this was the person for me. Actually, it was more 'is this the person I want to give up my freedom for? I like my life!'

For me, being a wife feels different because I value marriage. For those that feel like it's just a piece of paper, maybe they wouldn't feel the way I do. But I'm conservative enough to feel that marriage is special, sacred, and not something to enter in lightly. Marriage vows within our ceremony were a very big deal for me. Maybe I am too much a traditionalist in that sense...

TGal, it seems to me that your viewpoint is spiritual/religious but that is not the definition of marriage in the legal sense. Would it make a difference to you if you were married in church but never obtained the offical certificate from the state? I'm pretty sure everyone has to be married by the state after all. Perhaps it is semantics when it comes to spiritual side of marriage, but there is a difference in legal status. So how is it not just a piece of paper?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 1/6/2008 9:34:05 PM
Author: baby monster

Date: 1/6/2008 8:01:37 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Surfgirl, I agree that as I got older, I questioned a lot more if this was the person for me. Actually, it was more ''is this the person I want to give up my freedom for? I like my life!''

For me, being a wife feels different because I value marriage. For those that feel like it''s just a piece of paper, maybe they wouldn''t feel the way I do. But I''m conservative enough to feel that marriage is special, sacred, and not something to enter in lightly. Marriage vows within our ceremony were a very big deal for me. Maybe I am too much a traditionalist in that sense...

TGal, it seems to me that your viewpoint is spiritual/religious. Would it make a difference to you if you were married in church but never obtained the offical certificate from the state? I''m pretty sure everyone has to be married by the state after all. Perhaps it is semantics when it comes to spiritual side of marriage, but there is a difference in legal status. So how is it not just a piece of paper?

I don''t know...I''ve never psychoanalyzed my reasons too thoroughly. So I''d have to say yes, it is partially spiritual/religious. It''s also because I have seen many people in my life (not close friends...mostly through work and industry colleagues) completely disregard their marriage by cheating.

I believe in making promises and keeping them...not just in marriage but in all aspects of my life. That''s why when I make vows, it''s highly important to me.

I''m not sure what you are asking re: church and legal. I did not get married in a church. I got married on a beach, and it was mostly a non religious ceremony (TGuy is not religious), although our officiant was a Christian chaplain (and also my cousin-in-law).. The legal status of marriage MEANS something to me. It''s not just a piece of paper that just validates us and gives us rights. I buy into the whole enchilada of marriage. Does that make sense?

When I said that people who think marriage is just a piece of paper may not feel the way I do, I just meant that they may not "feel" different when they become a wife after a LTR.

 

[ephemery1]

I rarely venture over to LIW anymore, but this thread was too hard to resist! This type of discussion is what I love most about Pricescope...

I was a WAY over-eager LIW not long ago. For me, it was largely about control. I spent my teens/early 20's putting all my energy into becoming a happy, healthy, whole person... I knew I wanted to have a family someday, but my primary focus in the meantime was ME. So when I suddenly stumbled upon this person I could imagine building a future with, it was REALLY hard to accept that in our society, the guy usually sets the timeline. It felt like such a personal violation to sit back and wait around for HIM to be ready... when I was ready now! Totally different power dynamic than I'd grown accustomed to. Battle between my independence vs. dependence, I guess... learning the art of balance. Not to mention compromise.

And along the same lines as TG and Surfgirl, marriage to me was BIG... more than a piece of paper or wearing the title of "wife". I think partly because I'm a realist. I don't believe there is 1 soulmate out there for everyone... I believe we choose to make a commitment to a single person based on shared values/priorities/etc and then make an active choice every single day to do whatever it takes to maintain that commitment. At the risk of being horribly cliched... it's work. It's hard. And when you start to believe it should be easy, you start to lose the significance of those vows. I love my husband because I choose to love my husband... and therein lies the power that I struggled so long to reclaim. (It helps that he's pretty darn cute most of the time...)

Just my humble musings, anyway... much easier for me to process now that we're PAST that whole engagement waiting-game. I wouldn't go through that time again if you paid me in diamonds.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Date: 1/6/2008 9:34:05 PM
Author: baby monster

Date: 1/6/2008 8:01:37 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Surfgirl, I agree that as I got older, I questioned a lot more if this was the person for me. Actually, it was more 'is this the person I want to give up my freedom for? I like my life!'

For me, being a wife feels different because I value marriage. For those that feel like it's just a piece of paper, maybe they wouldn't feel the way I do. But I'm conservative enough to feel that marriage is special, sacred, and not something to enter in lightly. Marriage vows within our ceremony were a very big deal for me. Maybe I am too much a traditionalist in that sense...

TGal, it seems to me that your viewpoint is spiritual/religious but that is not the definition of marriage in the legal sense. Would it make a difference to you if you were married in church but never obtained the offical certificate from the state? I'm pretty sure everyone has to be married by the state after all. Perhaps it is semantics when it comes to spiritual side of marriage, but there is a difference in legal status. So how is it not just a piece of paper?

I'm not TGal, but I'll add my viewpoint on this as I have struggled with figuring out what it was about marriage that made it different from a LTR ( which looks an awful lot like marriage) during my time of LIW anxiety (the bad kind).

What I figured, is that it's only purpose is to establish a legal familiy in the eyes of the government. It's a package deal sort of contract establishing a set of rights for the spouses (next of kin, power of attorney, etc). It's purpose is strictly for the protecting of the family unit in a legal sense. While all of these things can be done without entering a marriage, they would have to be done separately, and even then all the rights of marriage may not be established for the couple.

In the sense of giving meaning to the relationship, legal marriage is just a piece of paper, and does not, in and of itself mean that the couple in question is more committed than a couple in a LTR. All it means is that the parties in a LTR may not be as well protected legally if something should happen to one of them.

 

[risingsun]

For me, marriage is more than the proverbial piece of paper. It is the deepest level of commitment I can make to my significant other. I was unmarried for ten years between my divorce and my second marriage. We wanted to form a family in the most profound way we could. This was not based upon religion or law, but our personal beliefs about what marriage means to us. I do think many couples enter marriage without fully exploring what it means for them. The desire to "have" another person in an exclusive relationship "forever" can become so overwhelming, that the meaning gets lost in the process. Shortly after we began dating, by husband and I decided to have an exclusive relationship. As we got to know each, we discovered that we were in similar developmental stages in our lives. We both had been divorced, with one daughter. We each had experienced at least two LTR. We were not interested in dating, for dating's sake. We had similar timelines, in terms of our relationship. That's not to say that we never disagreed, but we were on the same path. We have been married for 12 years.

When you are with someone who is at a different stage of readiness for marriage, it is a significant challenge. How long do you wait? How do you maintain your sense of self in the process? You cannot people please another person into marriage...or, if you do, you will be people pleasing them for the duration. When you lose yourself in the relationship, you lose yourself altogether.

 

[Haven]

Date: 1/6/2008 11:26:21 PM
Author: risingsun
For me, marriage is more than the proverbial piece of paper. It is the deepest level of commitment I can make to my significant other. I was unmarried for ten years between my divorce and my second marriage. We wanted to form a family in the most profound way we could. This was not based upon religion or law, but our personal beliefs about what marriage means to us. I do think many couples enter marriage without fully exploring what it means for them. The desire to 'have' another person in an exclusive relationship 'forever' can become so overwhelming, that the meaning gets lost in the process. Shortly after we began dating, by husband and I decided to have an exclusive relationship. As we got to know each, we discovered that we were in similar developmental stages in our lives. We both had been divorced, with one daughter. We each had experienced at least two LTR. We were not interested in dating, for dating's sake. We had similar timelines, in terms of our relationship. That's not to say that we never disagreed, but we were on the same path. We have been married for 12 years.

I love your view of marriage, Marian.

As for me, I'm in the pre-marriage stage, and I'm a recent LIW (my LIW thread), and when I felt ready to marry my FI I just became a bit eager for it to happen.

This topic makes me think of Harry's line in When Harry Met Sally when he says "When you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start RIGHT NOW."

That's how I felt. I was not depressed about it, but I was very ready to make a commitment, and very excited about being ready and sure about this man, that I suppose I expected him to be at the same place at the same time. I know that expectation is unreasonable, even though it turned out to be true. I also became a bit worried that if he wasn't ready to marry me after 3 years then perhaps he would never be ready to marry me, and that made me a bit crazed for about a day, during which I posted on PS and then had an open discussion with my FI and the matter was resolved almost instantly.

I'm not sure what the answer is to why the LsIW feel desperate or depressed, but I am sure that there is a lot of societal, familial, and cultural pressure on people to marry.

Why do I want to marry my FI? I love him, and most important--I want to create a family with him, and I want to do so in the tradition of our ancestors, which includes a religious marriage ceremony and a whole slew of celebrations and bottles of wine

. I want to make the deepest commitment to him, as Marian puts it, and I want to do so publicly and with the blessing of our friends and family. I then want to live with him, and create a life and family with him; our own little haven from the world.

I love that we (culturally and religiously) have created a rhythm to life by marking major life-cycle events and rites-of-passage with celebrations and rituals. (Birth, Bat Mitzvah, sweet 16, marriage, etc.) I enjoy taking part in these events, and I do so with the knowledge that my mother and her mother and her mother's mother all went through the same things that I am going through. They were each proposed to, one in a parking lot, another at the symphony, and they each frantically phoned their mothers, or wrote excited letters to their dear friends to share their news. They each stood in front of a mirror and imagined their wedding day as they chose gowns to wear when they married their betrothed. They each wore tokens of engagement on their left ring finger, and selected linens and silver and china for their first family home. They each married a man who shared their hopes and dreams for their now-shared future, and they each said marriage vows to the man they love and started their married lives full of hope, anticipation, and excitement.

Would I be happy living with my FI in a LTR? Am I confident that we do not need a legal document to validate our commitment to each other? Absolutely. But I wouldn't miss out on the shared tradition of my ancestors for anything. Not a thing. I relish this tradition, and I feel so very blessed to partake in it. That's why the actual act of marriage is so important to me, it is my participation in the fabric of life that we weave from generation to generation.

 

[surfgirl]

Marian, can I just give a big fat WORD! to your entire post? Thanks...I think you speak from a heart that''s seen and lived life and I think that''s what the older members sometimes are trying to convey to the younger members?

And Haven, may I say that your post made me a little verklempt because I just really love YOUR love and respect for the traditions of your family and ancestors. You really put that so eloquently and you really seem to have your head screwed on straight...Now, if I could only understand the kitty with the circus outfit out, I''d be all set!

ETA: I think you''re quite a bit younger than I am, and after reading your post, I rather wish I met my husband earlier in life so that we could have more time together as a couple...but then again, I wasn''t the same person I am now, when I was your age,nor was he, so it probably wouldn''t have worked out anyway back then...So much of successful relationships is about both communication and timing - both of which Marian touched on in her post.

 

[bee*]

Date: 1/6/2008 11:26:21 PM
Author: risingsun
For me, marriage is more than the proverbial piece of paper. It is the deepest level of commitment I can make to my significant other. I was unmarried for ten years between my divorce and my second marriage. We wanted to form a family in the most profound way we could. This was not based upon religion or law, but our personal beliefs about what marriage means to us. I do think many couples enter marriage without fully exploring what it means for them. The desire to ''have'' another person in an exclusive relationship ''forever'' can become so overwhelming, that the meaning gets lost in the process. Shortly after we began dating, by husband and I decided to have an exclusive relationship. As we got to know each, we discovered that we were in similar developmental stages in our lives. We both had been divorced, with one daughter. We each had experienced at least two LTR. We were not interested in dating, for dating''s sake. We had similar timelines, in terms of our relationship. That''s not to say that we never disagreed, but we were on the same path. We have been married for 12 years.

I love how you described marriage! I agree totally with you in that the reason that I want to be married to D is to have the deepest level of connection with him. It just means a lot to me and after being together for so long and supporting each other through our dreams and reality, I just know that he is the person for me. It has been hard work sometimes but we''ve always got through it and are stronger at the end of it.

 

[Haven]

Date: 1/7/2008 1:22:17 AM
Author: surfgirl

And Haven, may I say that your post made me a little verklempt because I just really love YOUR love and respect for the traditions of your family and ancestors. You really put that so eloquently and you really seem to have your head screwed on straight...Now, if I could only understand the kitty with the circus outfit out, I''d be all set!

ETA: I think you''re quite a bit younger than I am, and after reading your post, I rather wish I met my husband earlier in life so that we could have more time together as a couple...but then again, I wasn''t the same person I am now, when I was your age,nor was he, so it probably wouldn''t have worked out anyway back then...So much of successful relationships is about both communication and timing - both of which Marian touched on in her post.

Aw, thanks surfgirl!

The kitty is FI''s youngest, Geddy, who had to have emergency surgery just a few months after he adopted him. He''s wearing a big, goofy e-collar so he can''t lick his own wounds, so to speak. Rest assured, I do NOT dress up my kitties, I promise you! This is just one of my favorite shots of the little bugger, e-collar and all. He really is the cutest cat on the planet, I always say that it looks like someone drew a picture of the cutest kitty ever and he came to life in Geddy.

 

[gwendolyn]

Wow, there are some really great posts in this thread. I too have wondered about some people motivations for getting married--not people here on the board, I don''t know any of you well enough to say, but friends I have in real life. Here''s why I worry:

My core group of friends are a bunch of guys I went to middle school with--we met when we were 12 or 13, and are now all 29 going on 30. Two years ago, it was like a timer went off, and I had 13 friends get engaged within 10 months. It was RIDICULOUS, the engagements came in waves, 2 or 3 in a month, then a lull, then another 2 or 3. More than half of these engagements took place when the couples had been together less than a year. My most recent friend who got engaged has been with his girlfriend for less than 7 months AND she was his first real girlfriend (most of my friends are engineers and so aren''t exactly socially average). I am so incredibly worried for him, but that''s another story...

Now, before anyone says anything, I understand that no one know what a relationship is truly like except to those two in it, and that it''s possible ALL of those relationships were ready for marriage in such a short time. I have my doubts, with some relationships more than others, but it''s none of my business as it doesn''t directly affect me (except that I worry for my friends because I love them) and I know that I don''t know what their relationships are all about anyway.

However, it feels like they all proposed because it was ''that time.'' Like the first one did it, and the rest fell like dominoes, because it was ''that time of life'' and the person they were with was the lucky winner, so they got engaged and then married. One of the couples (who was together for 11 months before getting engaged) got into a public argument because the wife said that the husband "apparently doesn''t want to have kids anymore." Um, WHOA. That''s a big deal, and something I can''t help but think might have been explored more fully if they''d taken a bit more time to talk about the important issues BEFORE getting married! That could be totally unfair, but that''s certainly how it looks to me.

So, as a result, I feel myself being overly-cautious about getting engaged and married. J and I have a lot of extra to deal with since we''re an international couple, so I think we''d be taking our time more than my friends regardless, but with them all rushing to get married, it REALLY makes me stop and think to make sure we''re communicating and airing out doubts and worries and back-up plans, because to J and I, marriage is forever. It''s not a "let''s try it and see how it works out" kind of thing. Once it''s done, it''s done--we don''t want to consider divorce an option. I know it sounds awful, but it really worries me that in a few years, half my friends who''ve gotten married recently are going to be getting divorced because they (in my view) rushed into things. And what for? Because all the ''cool kids'' were doing it then?