The rough for my Octavia (pics)...

[Dancing Fire]

Just catchin this guys (late here in NY and eyes closing). . Not difficult but will answer in detail over the next 48. They are honest questions that deserve honest answers.

Waiting! Or did you mean 48 days???

Wink

lol Wink.
We are debating on which way of doing it will best serve our customers while at the same time make sure we can afford to do it.

Stormy...is it really that hard to figure out?.. I paid a lot of $$$ for this rough...

 

[Karl_K]

Just catchin this guys (late here in NY and eyes closing). . Not difficult but will answer in detail over the next 48. They are honest questions that deserve honest answers.

Waiting! Or did you mean 48 days???

Wink

lol Wink.
We are debating on which way of doing it will best serve our customers while at the same time make sure we can afford to do it.

Stormy...is it really that hard to figure out?.. I paid a lot of $$$ for this rough...

Yes, in some ways it is really complex if we make it public and orders come in. We need to make sure its right to protect both the customers and ourselves.
I understand your concern, you will get a fair deal and be very happy in the end. :} That I promise.

 

[pyramid]

Yes, I was just thinking that this could be the type of thing an organisation would consider only in a one on one agreement with a customer.

I always remember Kenny saying he would not buy a stone that was cut specifically for him and I remember trying to think of all the reasons why he wouldn't. There is a lot to consider for both the customer and the vendor.

 

[kenny]

Yes, I was just thinking that this could be the type of thing an organisation would consider only in a one on one agreement with a customer.

I always remember Kenny saying he would not buy a stone that was cut specifically for him and I remember trying to think of all the reasons why he wouldn't. There is a lot to consider for both the customer and the vendor.

I don't like to buy anything, not just a diamond, without first seeing a published price.
Yes, I'm jaded.
Revealing a price only in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet.
I'd be concerned I may be quoted a higher price than a price they would have published. (Kenny must be loaded. Have you seen his FCD collection?)

It's like the anxiety of buying a new car.
New cars have published prices but we all know those are meaningless because different buyers pay different prices for the same car.

This is NOT a personal reflection whatsoever on GOG or any vendor ... just my own hang up, and my own fault for being so transparent here on PS. YMMV!

DF, I apologize for what has become a highjack of your Octavia thread.

Jon, again, you are under no obligation whatsoever to post answers to my questions.
If details are to be worked out in private, no problem.
Just say so.

I realize commissioning the cut of any diamond from rough, let alone such a specialized cut like the Octavia, is an extraordinarily complex transaction.
The most comprehensive pricing structure may simply not cover all the possible factors.

 

[pyramid]

I know that this diamond is being cut from rough and maybe all octavias have to be due to the depth of them. I was just thinking or wondering though if a large cut diamond with a breakage could be cut like this, then the price would vary a lot as the diamond would have been bought much cheaper in its original state. The thing with this diamond of DF's is ofcourse that it could be four color grades, although as the diamond cutter did put against it there are different percentages so probably a diamond with e.g. 10% F is not going to end up being an F and they would know this when determining the price at the start. So is it really only 2 color grades that are really being considered when pricing! I don't know just what I am thinking in my head.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I have to agree that I would need a pretty firm price in order to purchase. Perhaps there is a firm 'ballpark' price that all parties felt comfortable with - and that's understandable.

I think this process is the coolest ever and yet - as Pyramid says - there is a four color grade possibility in the stone. I applaud DF's guts to go through with this and I'm sure with the players involved, it will turn out for everyone.

Maybe it's best we don't know all the details - enter at your own risk should you ever decide to do something like this! I'll probably just live vicariously through DF on a project like this though! It is a really neat idea though and such a cool story to accompany what is certain to be a gorgeous stone. Can't wait to see the finished rock!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Just catchin this guys (late here in NY and eyes closing). . Not difficult but will answer in detail over the next 48. They are honest questions that deserve honest answers.

Waiting! Or did you mean 48 days???

Wink

lol Wink.
We are debating on which way of doing it will best serve our customers while at the same time make sure we can afford to do it.

Stormy...is it really that hard to figure out?.. I paid a lot of $$$ for this rough...

Yes, in some ways it is really complex if we make it public and orders come in. We need to make sure its right to protect both the customers and ourselves.
I understand your concern, you will get a fair deal and be very happy in the end. :} That I promise.

Always better to make friends then money..

 

[pyramid]

I'm thinking the believe is the stone is going to be an H because it has 50%H but may go to G because of fluorescence. There again I thought the labs were supposed to grade without the fluorescence affect through using special lights to combat it. Maybe not as risky as the story here is seeming to say for DF. Just complicated for a vendor to put out and say that any purchaser will get this because of rough price, old stone price or profits at time, number of people wanting it, availability of right rough/old stone to be recut, cutting costs and availability of cutter to do this as he probably cuts other diamonds. Getting customers to commit must be difficult too if they know little about the look of diamonds or Octavia and are eyeing up the beautiful cut stones and videos Good Old Gold already have ready for purchase. They would need to agree to buy or buy the rough before they see the diamond, also this is not the way it is usually done and people go for what they know generally. Would think it would work with Pricescopers and maybe long time ones better than the general public.

 

[pyramid]

VS++ Would this maybe mean will probably be VS2 but may be VS1. Think GOG have a good idea before they priced the rough, so not really 4 colour grades or 6 clarity grades in the running.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF, I apologize for what has become a highjack of your Octavia thread.

Jon, again, you are under no obligation whatsoever to post answers to my questions.
If details are to be worked out in private, no problem.
Just say so.

I realize commissioning the cut of any diamond from rough, let alone such a specialized cut like the Octavia, is an extraordinarily complex transaction.
The most comprehensive pricing structure may simply not cover all the possible factors.

No problem Kenny.. I'm sure PSers would love to hear more information about purchasing a rough and how the transaction is done.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="kenny|1403730394|

I don't like to buy anything, not just a diamond, without first seeing a published price.
Yes, I'm jaded.
Revealing a price only in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet.
I'd be concerned I may be quoted a higher price than a price they would have published. (Kenny must be loaded. Have you seen his FCD collection?)
[/quote]


I don't think Jon would do that on purpose b/c if he quotes you a price out of left field you as a customer can always past on the deal. No sales = 0 profit.

 

[dk168]

DF,

Jon may not do that, however, I share Kenny's sentiments, as I personally had experienced being eyed up first by the sale staff and offered a price, and when I said it was too much and was about to walk away, they would drop the price etc...

This happened quite a bit when I was shopping in one of the malls on the Mainland side of the border when I was in Hong Kong in 2009. Luckily my mum was with me, and she was and still is, far better at haggling than I was, so I got some goodies (accessories and jewellery) at good prices.

DK

 

[diamondseeker2006]

[quote="kenny|1403730394|

I don't like to buy anything, not just a diamond, without first seeing a published price.
Yes, I'm jaded.
Revealing a price only in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet.
I'd be concerned I may be quoted a higher price than a price they would have published. (Kenny must be loaded. Have you seen his FCD collection?)

I don't think Jon would do that on purpose b/c if he quotes you a price out of left field you as a customer can always past on the deal. No sales = 0 profit.[/quote]


Not only that, it would be ridiculous and unlikely to happen considering the fact we can see the typical markup on specialty cut stones over a well cut similar stone and know whether the price is fair or not. In my case, I knew how AVR's were priced relative to H&A stones, so it would have been impossible for Jon to overprice the stone to be cut without me realizing it. Similarly, one can see how Octavia's are priced relative to generic asschers and then assess the projected price range of the finished stone based on the possible range of specs.

I honestly don't think Jon owes an explanation here as the cost of cutting different diamonds varies as does the cost of rough. Circumstances may be different in individual cases so he may do things differently in different cases. In one case, the stone may be one he absolutely does not need or want to stock in inventory, so he requires a commitment to buy before cutting. In another case, he may cut the stone without requiring that commitment because he can use a stone like that in inventory.

 

[kenny]

My reasonable questions (which others share and even Jon described as honest questions) are being distorted into an insult against GOG.
I also posted Jon can just post that it's all private, no problem.

Please reread what I posted, and stop the spin.
Thanks.

I've done a lot of business with Jon at GOG and love the guy, his product and policies.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF,

Jon may not do that, however, I share Kenny's sentiments, as I personally had experienced being eyed up first by the sale staff and offered a price, and when I said it was too much and was about to walk away, they would drop the price etc...

This happened quite a bit when I was shopping in one of the malls on the Mainland side of the border when I was in Hong Kong in 2009. Luckily my mum was with me, and she was and still is, far better at haggling than I was, so I got some goodies (accessories and jewellery) at good prices.

DK

But this was HK (I was born there) of course you can/should haggle on almost anything there especially jewelry purchases...

 

[Dancing Fire]

My reasonable questions (which others share and even Jon described as honest questions) are being distorted into an insult against GOG.
I also posted Jon can just post that it's all private, no problem.

Please reread what I posted, and stop the spin.
Thanks.

I've done a lot of business with Jon at GOG and love the guy, his product and policies.

What insults?.. I don't see any negative post about Jon on this thread. I too love the guy and have no problems with his products and policies.

 

[bright ice]

WOW DH...what an exciting project for you
I have been out of the loop for the past few weeks since getting married, honeymoon, etc.
I know you have wanted an Octavia for a long time. I am excited for you and can't wait to see how it turns out. You must be over the moon with anticipation.

 

[partgypsy]

Wow how did I miss this thread? Exciting on so many levels. Such a beautiful piece of rough.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Kenny, I don't think you deliberately said anything negative about GOG, but those who do not know your relationship with GOG might have taken your statement below the wrong way:

"Revealing a price only in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet."

People might be led to think you don't trust Jon to price fairly. I was just explaining how he can't really cheat anyone because all they have to do is look at existing stones on the site and get a rough idea of the markup for a specialty cut.

 

[Dancing Fire]

WOW DH...what an exciting project for you
I have been out of the loop for the past few weeks since getting married, honeymoon, etc.
I know you have wanted an Octavia for a long time. I am excited for you and can't wait to see how it turns out. You must be over the moon with anticipation.

Congrats!.. I thought you gotten marry years ago...

 

[pyramid]

I believe that when Kenny said about not wanting to get a stone cut for him specifically in a thread I recalled months ago, he was just speaking in general it was not about Good Old Gold or any particular vendor it was just about commissioning a diamond from anyone.

 

[kenny]

Kenny, I don't think you deliberately said anything negative about GOG, but those who do not know your relationship with GOG might have taken your statement below the wrong way:

"Revealing a price only in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet."

People might be led to think you don't trust Jon to price fairly. I was just explaining how he can't really cheat anyone because all they have to do is look at existing stones on the site and get a rough idea of the markup for a specialty cut.

Oye Vey!
Read the rest of what I've already posted instead of isolating one sentence.

Please just drop this.
Please don't even respond to this post.

Here on the Internet, especially on PS, this will degenerate fast.

 

[MarionC]

Kenny, I don't think you deliberately said anything negative about GOG, but those who do not know your relationship with GOG might have taken your statement below the wrong way:

"Revealing a price only in private, after the seller has a chance to size up my affluence and ignorance/knowledge feels different to me than seeing a price published on the Internet."

People might be led to think you don't trust Jon to price fairly. I was just explaining how he can't really cheat anyone because all they have to do is look at existing stones on the site and get a rough idea of the markup for a specialty cut.

Oye Vey!
Read the rest of what I've already posted instead of isolating one sentence.

Please just drop this.
Please don't even respond to this post.

Here on the Internet, especially on PS, this will degenerate fast.

It will not degenerate. Everyone here thinks you are the bees knees and will pummel any detractors with big shiny rocks

 

[Dancing Fire]

Just catchin this guys (late here in NY and eyes closing). . Not difficult but will answer in detail over the next 48. They are honest questions that deserve honest answers.

Waiting! Or did you mean 48 days???

Wink

Hope is not 48 years..

 

[kenny]

Everyone here thinks you are the bees knees and will pummel any detractors with big shiny rocks

Gee thanks, but y'all can just mail me those big shiny rocks.

 

[chrono]

I curious as to the pricing structure of buying a piece of diamond rough to be custom cut. This is interesting because due to the control of diamond rough, we rarely have the opportunity to see this happen. I wonder whether it is the same as in Coloured Stones where the vendor gives a price and regardless of the final size and colour, it could end up being a good deal or end up on the expensive side (better/worse colour, better/worse clarity, bigger/smaller size, etc). There is some element of guess because the final outcome is unknown but I'm sure the vendor priced it so that he/she is well covered under all circumstances.

Since this is DF's thread, we shouldn't clutter this any further and should start a new thread to discuss this, if others are still interested in this topic.

 

[Rhino]

Hey all,

Apologies for the late reply. Karl, Yoram and myself are discussing in email and will bring our thoughts here as soon as possible as we have our personal thoughts about it and the process (which really is an amazing journey) and of which the consumer is generally never ever a part of however we are interested in hearing your thoughts concerning our conversation as well.

To be continued...

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

 

[OoohShiny]

Cool, I can't wait!



I guess that this process is different to just getting an existing diamond re-cut?

From what was posted in another thread, re-cutting an existing stone is, what, $350 + $350/kt, so it would be, in theory, $1050 plus any shipping costs to re-cut a 2kt stone (to a MRB in the $350 case).


Are the costs higher if cutting a rough, due to additional assessment and other processes that need to take place?

e.g. If DF had sent in a rough to a cutter that he had bought from A.N.Other person, would the total costs just be what it would cost to actually scan, measure, work out the best cut and then the cutting process itself? Or would it be more, and depend on the end specification of the stone, as has been alluded to earlier in this thread?


Following on from that line of thought, if one is buying a rough from a vendor and getting them to cut it, how does the charging structure work? If the example of the re-cutting process was followed, the cost would seemingly be Price of Rough (and associated searching for it) + costs of evaluation + costs of cutting.

That would surely equal less than the Retail Cost of the end result because the profit margin on the stone (which would ordinarily pay for the cutting costs etc that had been carried out at the vendors own risk, and then the costs of running the shop to sell the stone and the profit required/desired on top of the actual costs) would not be necessary - the profit would come from the money received for carrying out the searching and assessment and cutting services, without the need for profit margin to cover 'shop space' and so on.


So, in effect, buying from a vendor as normal would mean:
purchase price of the completed stone = price of rough + price of assessment + price of cutting + price of grading + costs of running a shop to sell it + profit margin on top.

Profit margin would be determined by the end specifications of the completed stone determining its price and therefore how much profit there is between price of sale minus price of processing.


But... buying a rough and commissioning its cutting would mean:
purchase price of the completed stone = price of rough + price of assessment + price of cutting + price of grading + costs of staff to carry out communications during the process, all without profit margin on top, because the commissioner would be paying all costs for the processing.

Therefore... the end specifications of the stone cut from the rough, and the price it would sell for on the open market, would be irrelevant and would not increase the price to the commissioner over and above the costs of the cutting process because the vendor has just provided the cutting service and had all their costs covered by the commissioner (as in the case of the re-cutting service) so they are not out of pocket.

Granted, some small profit margin would probably be built in to each stage of the process, but it would not be as much as would be realised were the stone to end up, say, a large and high-spec stone and sold through the 'as normal' process above.

It does seem as though the end spec of the stone does impact on the price of the completed stone, though, going from the thread? I presume this is to cover previously incurred development costs, additional hassles created by the different approach to normal, the fact that people have to make a living...


Anyway, does the above make any sense to anyone but me in my head?


I understand these are sensitive discussions and vendors are completely at liberty to answer or ignore our questions as they see fit, and are also at liberty to charge appropriately so they can operate with a level of profit margin that can ensure they provide the service we know and love and appreciate but I thought I'd ask the questions anyway, just so I can get them out of my head... lol

Mods - please delete if you see fit!

 

[WinkHPD]

Hey all,

Apologies for the late reply. Karl, Yoram and myself are discussing in email and will bring our thoughts here as soon as possible as we have our personal thoughts about it and the process (which really is an amazing journey) and of which the consumer is generally never ever a part of however we are interested in hearing your thoughts concerning our conversation as well.

To be continued...

Kindest regards,
Jonathan

Jonathon,

I appreciate your coming on here to discuss this issue. It is indeed incredibly complex and I am sure that it is handled in many many different ways by different cutters. I am fascinated to see how some others handle this complex issue and I applaud you having the courage and the integrity to do so publicly.

Wink

 

[chrono]

The problem is that nobody knows with 100% surety what the end spec will be with regards to carat weight, colour and clarity, which in such a large stone, involves a significant amount of money when any of the Cs moves away slightly in any direction. All we (and the vendors & cutters) have are an educated guess. I've seen enough recuts and commissioned cuts gone wrong in CS to know that things CAN go wrong and a person ends up with several thousand dollars down the drain.