To all the dealers trashing Lab Diamonds

[Rockdiamond]

Look, I pray- hope against hope- that natural diamond prices skyrocket! ( sorry to the consumers, but we own a lot of diamonds
Lab diamonds are giving us a look behind the curtain as it were. Please explain why a D/IF is worth TRIPLE a perfectly eye clean F/SI2.
OK, that's a bridge too far? D/IF= E/VS1x1.7
This is crazy, once you start using lab diamonds as a benchmark. Which, why wouldn't you?
I've never made any secret of my feelings- in fact, I've always advocated for buying eye clean SI2 diamonds. As long as they're buying them from a trusted dealer who can eyeball the stone
I don't ever advise trolling online inventories for SI2 diamonds. What's left on the lists is generally the bottom of the bucket rejections.
I agree that transparency certainly should be graded.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

good to hear from you Garry
i had been wondering where you were

Skiing in Zermatt with Vera and 10 year old Harry grandson.
Having a total blast!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

First, I will reiterate that I agree with you that consumers are being failed by lack of information around transparency. A significant number of the "unicorn" eye clean Si stones transparency issues. And these are very popular choices that vendors are happy to sell- they are priced well and often have very clean stone plots which they view as a selling point. I honestly do not think that many merchants and their sales people even know the stones have meaningful deficits as it is often very subtle. That is why I believe it is incumbent on the laboratories to report on it directly. "Clarity based on features not shown" is laboratory shorthand to check for transparency issues in Si stones. How many consumers know that, other than those very plugged in such as pricescopers? Why not make that clear to the consumer, even if just a comment and not an objective metric of some sort?

To you bigger point, yes the labs are businesses. And their biggest constituency are members of the trade, even though their stated mission is consumer education/protection. This sets up a conflict of interest.

The main reason that GIA was so slow to report on overall cut quality, and when they did it was overly broad and forgiving (and limited to rounds), was that their main constituency had a huge investment in inventories full of mediocre to poor cut diamonds which were being promoted and sold as well cut diamonds, and on which they were likely to take big hits on value and liquidity if they were accurately graded for cut. GIA only did it because they were forced to by demand that was being filled by AGSL and other labs doing cut grading.

As you point out, there is hope that the interest in CVD diamonds may serve as impetus for labs to start reporting on transparency. I have been told by a person in a position to know at one of the top tier labs that they are working on this. I will be delighted to see it happen, I just hope I live long enough to see it.

Thanks Bryan. We are on the same page!
Dr Yun Luo at GIA has established a method for making transparency transparent in both fluorescent diamonds and the same would work for non fluorescent diamonds.
Not sure they are going to progress it until the other "top tier" lab does it first!
Sad that the leading not for profit is so tied up in the business that they don't advance on their own brilliant scientists:

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

We have already seen prices fall short term. I expect to see continued volatility, but a through-line with more of an upward trajectory over time.

Roughly by dollar value natural diamond prices have fluctuated forever.
Not as much as oil or copper or corn.
LGD have definitely had an impact, but probably more because many cutters moved to polishing man made diamonds - more so than simple consumer demand.
These market influences are complex.
But the very best measure of whats happening with diamond prices is our chart on PS (apologies for my rough green line attempting to show the overall value change):

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Look, I pray- hope against hope- that natural diamond prices skyrocket! ( sorry to the consumers, but we own a lot of diamonds
Lab diamonds are giving us a look behind the curtain as it were. Please explain why a D/IF is worth TRIPLE a perfectly eye clean F/SI2.
OK, that's a bridge too far? D/IF= E/VS1x1.7
This is crazy, once you start using lab diamonds as a benchmark. Which, why wouldn't you?
I've never made any secret of my feelings- in fact, I've always advocated for buying eye clean SI2 diamonds. As long as they're buying them from a trusted dealer who can eyeball the stone
I don't ever advise trolling online inventories for SI2 diamonds. What's left on the lists is generally the bottom of the bucket rejections.
I agree that transparency certainly should be graded.

I use H SI1 is 1/3rd the cost of D Flawless David. At 1ct only about half the people I have shown 0.50ct to 1ct diamonds can pick the difference.
Most of my sales are from D VS2 to G SI2

 

[mrs-b]

Bit of a sideways suggestion here...

Something that I think might help some earth mined diamond retailers is to look to their purchasing options. If you're selling a product that has an almost identical competitor that retails at 10% of the price (or less), you want to make your product as easy to acquire as possible.

To that end, I would suggest offering a layaway program to customers. I've wanted to have that option for years. There's an item on a certain well-loved site I would put down a 20% deposit on immediately, if I could get a layaway option. But once I pass, say, $10k, you're talking about an amount I don't normally have just lying around to spend on an item for which I have no pressing need. I'll think about it, think about it, decide I have a dozen things more worthy of the amount, and almost always move on. Which is exactly what's happened. If, on the other hand, I had, say, 6 months to pay this item off - or even 4 months, on a non-refundable deposit basis, I'd plonk down the $2.5k deposit this afternoon.

Earth mined diamond companies might be selling luxury items, but very few people have luxury-level incomes. Options are good - both in the products available, but also in the purchasing process.

Sigh. Well, if nothing else came out of this thread....

I've given up on the hope of my fave diamond retailer ever offering a layaway plan, so today just bought the damn thing outright.

There was a degree of resentment, tho, I have to be honest. And I clicked on the link as it sat on my computer screen in between 2 lab diamonds, both of which would have been suitable matches. And I am a DIE HARD earth mined diamond fan. But even for me, the unwillingness of the trade to offer me some flexibility in my purchasing options almost pushed me into buying a lab grown diamond. And this is from a company with which I've spent WELL over $100k.

So just today, I'm thinking that if these companies don't become more flexible, their elitism about diamonds vs lab diamonds, and their elitism on what they expect from their customers, is going to come back and bite them on their Triple 0 rated AgSSes.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sigh. Well, if nothing else came out of this thread....

I've given up on the hope of my fave diamond retailer ever offering a layaway plan, so today just bought the damn thing outright.

There was a degree of resentment, tho, I have to be honest. And I clicked on the link as it sat on my computer screen in between 2 lab diamonds, both of which would have been suitable matches. And I am a DIE HARD earth mined diamond fan. But even for me, the unwillingness of the trade to offer me some flexibility in my purchasing options almost pushed me into buying a lab grown diamond. And this is from a company with which I've spent WELL over $100k.

So just today, I'm thinking that if these companies don't become more flexible, their elitism about diamonds vs lab diamonds, and their elitism on what they expect from their customers, is going to come back and bite them on their Triple 0 rated AgSSes.

Interesting problem.
Brick and mortar stores almost all give layaway plans, although often 3 months.
Many these days also offer payment plans via 3rd party finance companies.
I don't see why eTailers should not be doing the same?

 

[Mreader]

Sigh. Well, if nothing else came out of this thread....

I've given up on the hope of my fave diamond retailer ever offering a layaway plan, so today just bought the damn thing outright.

There was a degree of resentment, tho, I have to be honest. And I clicked on the link as it sat on my computer screen in between 2 lab diamonds, both of which would have been suitable matches. And I am a DIE HARD earth mined diamond fan. But even for me, the unwillingness of the trade to offer me some flexibility in my purchasing options almost pushed me into buying a lab grown diamond. And this is from a company with which I've spent WELL over $100k.

So just today, I'm thinking that if these companies don't become more flexible, their elitism about diamonds vs lab diamonds, and their elitism on what they expect from their customers, is going to come back and bite them on their Triple 0 rated AgSSes.

I’ve never done layaway, but once on a big purchase I applied for one of those credit cards where you get a big sign on bonus and 24 months interest-free, so I sort of made my own layaway that way.

 

[LLJsmom]

I think you are right in that no one can distinguish between a natural and lgd,but rocking anything over a 3 carat these days, over a 2 if the couple is super young—is an indicator that the ring is a lab. That is why many lgd buyers choose to keep the size at a “credible” size.

I would not bet that the future belongs to lgd based on their affordability and accessibility. A lot of people do not appreciate what comes too easily. Think about moissanite. Yes, on PS, most can spot them a mile away. Even a cubic zirconia. But for the world at large, these 2 stones are indistinguishable from afar. If people really wanted big and cheap, these two stones would be the go-to. I think lgd is a fad. Will die down when they are everywhere—and their price plummets like moisannite.

@nala, you post reminded me of something my 18 year old said to me when I asked her which she preferred lab or earth. To my surprise she said earth. When I asked why, she said it had to work harder. It stuck. And it’s exactly what you said.

A lot of people do not appreciate what comes too easily.

Helps me understand my own thinking.

 

[tomato]

I own both EGD and LGD and love them both. I view LGD as the vehicle to try new and more creative things - I just got some kite cut studs for example. The reduced cost of the material makes it easier to take risks with interesting cuts and pieces.

My engagement ring, round studs & eternity band are EGD and the center is a vintage family stone which is fun. I think there is room for both and no reason to be put off by it, at least on the consumer side.

I do think it’s funny when I read comments like “Well, I think LGD are costume jewelry,” and “I don’t think their stones are as good as mine” or “only poor and low class people buy LGD” (paraphrased) by people who then wonder why the targets of their comments find them to be annoying snobs. Saying these sorts of things is just rude, in the same way as saying “Guess you support child slavery, huh?” to someone who buys an EGD is rude. Not everything that is thought needs to be said.

I don’t buy LGD because I can’t afford EGD. I buy them because I have other goals that I want to put my $ toward (and even my Raman laser can’t see them as different).

There is a part of me that wonders if there is some classist resentment happening as one of the signals of wealth has changed. “How will someone know I am upper class and better than them now that everyone has a diamond as big as mine?”

 

[marymm]

fyi @mrs-b

FWIW both Whiteflash and Victor Canera offer 90-day layaway plans for in-house diamonds

Whiteflash 90-Day Flex Plan (for total over $1,500)
https://www.whiteflash.com/faq/does-whiteflash-offer-financing/

Victor Canera 90-Day Layawa Plan (for value of 2,000 or more)
https://www.victorcanera.com/service/layaways

 

[mrs-b]

fyi @mrs-b

FWIW both Whiteflash and Victor Canera offer 90-day layaway plans for in-house diamonds

Whiteflash 90-Day Flex Plan (for total over $1,500)
https://www.whiteflash.com/faq/does-whiteflash-offer-financing/

Victor Canera 90-Day Layawa Plan (for value of 2,000 or more)
https://www.victorcanera.com/service/layaways

I had no idea! That's AWESOME! Thanks, @marymm!!

Do you know if this is a new thing? Because I've bought multiple diamonds from both of them and nobody has ever mentioned that to me!

 

[Heathcat24]

I had no idea! That's AWESOME! Thanks, @marymm!!

Do you know if this is a new thing? Because I've bought multiple diamonds from both of them and nobody has ever mentioned that to me!

I've used Whiteflash's Flex Pay several times over the past few years! It is FANTASTIC! I think the purchase has to be over $1500 to do it?

It has been a great option for me when my bling fund has been depleted, but I find the PERFECT stone(s) for a different project or upgrade and I don't want to risk missing out!

 

[MissGotRocks]

I had no idea! That's AWESOME! Thanks, @marymm!!

Do you know if this is a new thing? Because I've bought multiple diamonds from both of them and nobody has ever mentioned that to me!

@mrs-b, did you ask them about a flex payment plan? I have never been offered a plan but I have never asked for it either. Interesting!

 

[marymm]

I had no idea! That's AWESOME! Thanks, @marymm!!

Do you know if this is a new thing? Because I've bought multiple diamonds from both of them and nobody has ever mentioned that to me!

Huh, I just searched my post history and found that I quoted the Whiteflash Flex Policy back in April 2012 -- yeah, I've used it a few times, very helpful to lock in a specific diamond and still have a couple of months to pull off full payment.

I really don't know why Whiteflash doesn't promote it; it's a fantastic policy and so consumer-friendly.

 

[Karl_K]

Layaway plans if used a lot can hurt the company so its not good to push them.
It ties up stock over a long period.
Stocking dealers survive by moving stock, old stock sold, buy new stock to sell and hope to have enough money left to cover expenses to keep going until the new stock sells. Repeat over and over again.
If its on memo they have to buy it to reserve it to them.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Huh, I just searched my post history and found that I quoted the Whiteflash Flex Policy back in April 2012 -- yeah, I've used it a few times, very helpful to lock in a specific diamond and still have a couple of months to pull off full payment.

I really don't know why Whiteflash doesn't promote it; it's a fantastic policy and so consumer-friendly.

You probably have to ask them about it. If it is on their website, then I guess they figure that is good enough. It has never been mentioned to me either but I never asked about such a policy either.

 

[Rockdiamond]

My perspective as a merchant on layaway- in addition to the points Karl made about the difficulties for sellers.
My consideration is for the buyer. What if they change their mind. Or situations change and they have to cancel?
In that case there’s a real liability for the seller. So likely whatever money the buyer has put down is lost. Stuff happens. People change their minds etc…

 

[MissGotRocks]

My perspective as a merchant on layaway- in addition to the points Karl made about the difficulties for sellers.
My consideration is for the buyer. What if they change their mind. Or situations change and they have to cancel?
In that case there’s a real liability for the seller. So likely whatever money the buyer has put down is lost. Stuff happens. People change their minds etc…

Yes, and particularly if it is for a protracted amount of time. I could see nightmare scenarios for buyers and sellers.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I could see nightmare scenarios for buyers and sellers.

Yes.
Once the money is paid, refunds are difficult, if not impossible.
Another huge red flag for me....financing.
The majority of online financing deals- along with ones that have been offered to us to offer - they have interest rates at 29%!
We've always advised interested shoppers to buy what they can afford.
I can't count how many times a young person calls wanting something they can't afford- and asks about financing.
The $5k they borrow might take 10 years to repay......

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Flex pay is great when you have the money but want to put it on a cash-back credit card. I am not a fan of getting the discounts through bank wires. I have never felt so vulnerable than the few times I did it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

One of the sad ironies. People who don’t need credit get offers for low interest, deferred payment…. and other advantages while people who really need it get hosed.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

I had to do a bank wire to buy a modest diamond from JA, no other option. I was furious. Does anyone remember when they offended mrs-b? I thought, seriously, how stupid can you be? Gina Drosos should show up at mrs-b's house with a casserole and a bundt cake. And a bottle of Chateau Montelina.

 

[elle_chris]

Flex pay is great when you have the money but want to put it on a cash-back credit card. I am not a fan of getting the discounts through bank wires. I have never felt so vulnerable than the few times I did it.

I usually do bank wires for companies I know like Whiteflash.
But last week I purchased my last ACA for an eternity ring and instead of a bank wire, I used my Wells Fargo card which gives you 2% cashback on all purchases. It was just so convenient.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I have always wired to Whiteflash as well. The 3% discount is nice!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Speaking as a merchant: Credit cards are expensive to accept and introduce third party aspects that can get between client and seller.
And there's just no doubt they'll continue to raise commissions.
As a buyer, that third party aspect is important- for protection.
Unless I was very sure who I was dealing with, I'd never use bank wires.
Thankfully many of our clients do know us well enough.
I hate making the credit card companies richer.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Speaking as a merchant: Credit cards are expensive to accept and introduce third party aspects that can get between client and seller.
And there's just no doubt they'll continue to raise commissions.
As a buyer, that third party aspect is important- for protection.
Unless I was very sure who I was dealing with, I'd never use bank wires.
Thankfully many of our clients do know us well enough.
I hate making the credit card companies richer.

Good point about knowing the merchant before sending wire payment. Very few I would do that with but my experiences have been tried and true.

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

On the sparklier side, there are very few LGD vendors who request bank wires.

@Ibrakeforpossums Really? What circumstances called for that (if you’re comfortable sharing)?

 

[MissGotRocks]

On the sparklier side, there are very few LGD vendors who request bank wires.

@Ibrakeforpossums Really? What circumstances called for that (if you’re comfortable sharing)?

Vendors sometimes offer to take payment via bank wire; I have never heard of one requiring it! That would be a bit unsettling to me.

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Vendors sometimes offer to take payment via bank wire; I have never heard of one requiring it! That would be a bit unsettling to me.

Sometimes over a certain amount of $$$.