Withholding?

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 7/17/2009 9:59:42 AM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 7/16/2009 4:27:46 PM
Author: LaurenThePartier
LOL, God help that guy if he actually gives in and proposes.

He''s looking at a lifetime of dry spells everytime she wants a new car, a new piece of furniture, a new KitchenAid mixer . . .

I wouldnt be surprised if this was more normal than you think! But it might not be said in so many words.

I''m a member of an incredibly male dominated forum that can be quite mysoginistic at times, and I can guarantee this happens more often than we hear about here on PS. Men complain about it much more openly than we do.

 

[treefrog]

Date: 7/16/2009 8:13:18 PM
Author: TheDoctor
Extortion is evil.
Imagine if it were the subject guy writing a similar letter, looking for a response.
He won''t sign the mortgage on the country house until she agrees to something she ain''t ready for yet, and he''s sure there will be disagreement or worse.

If the friend really wants to entice the man in her life to offer to marry her, she needs to step something up a few notches. Most guys take notice of any sort of change, positive or negative. Why choose a negative one? Sets a bad precedent, especially if the (negative) action is rewarded with a relinquishment. It''s going down a bad road. It sounds as if she is far too comfortable.

If he''s worth keeping, he''s probably smart enough to figure out the most basic signs. Removing priveleges requires little imagination, and says more about the conspirator than the victim.

Sorry, male perspective at eye level.

Why... oh why... do I find myself even looking in here?

I hate slow days at work!

Guy''s perspective #2... Take the Doc''s advice!

Instead of taking something from the relationship, how about adding something to it? They''ll both get his attention. Only one will result in negative feelings and the other will result in positive. Relationships need to be built... kind of like a house. If a construction team is building a house and nearing completion, why smash all the windows? Is that going to make the buyer happy? Tell them you''re upgrading the appliances AND throwing in a KitchenAid Professional 600 Series mixer... bet that does a more effective job of getting their attention than smashing the windows!

Treefrog

 

[purselover]

Date: 7/17/2009 1:50:50 PM
Author: treefrog

Date: 7/16/2009 8:13:18 PM
Author: TheDoctor
Extortion is evil.
Imagine if it were the subject guy writing a similar letter, looking for a response.
He won''t sign the mortgage on the country house until she agrees to something she ain''t ready for yet, and he''s sure there will be disagreement or worse.

If the friend really wants to entice the man in her life to offer to marry her, she needs to step something up a few notches. Most guys take notice of any sort of change, positive or negative. Why choose a negative one? Sets a bad precedent, especially if the (negative) action is rewarded with a relinquishment. It''s going down a bad road. It sounds as if she is far too comfortable.

If he''s worth keeping, he''s probably smart enough to figure out the most basic signs. Removing priveleges requires little imagination, and says more about the conspirator than the victim.

Sorry, male perspective at eye level.

Why... oh why... do I find myself even looking in here?

I hate slow days at work!

Guy''s perspective #2... Take the Doc''s advice!

Instead of taking something from the relationship, how about adding something to it? They''ll both get his attention. Only one will result in negative feelings and the other will result in positive. Relationships need to be built... kind of like a house. If a construction team is building a house and nearing completion, why smash all the windows? Is that going to make the buyer happy? Tell them you''re upgrading the appliances AND throwing in a KitchenAid Professional 600 Series mixer... bet that does a more effective job of getting their attention than smashing the windows!

Treefrog

I love it when guys visit, ditto everything these 2 said

 

[HopeDream]

Forget "no sex", this woman needs engagement chicken pronto.

also, a serious discussion with her SO.

A frank chat about how desperately important it is for her to become engaged is in order.
Something in this relationship has triggered her "fight or flight" response, and it's the intimacy that's flying away.

What is going on in her life that has prompted this sudden change? I strongly suspect some sort of family/peer pressure has influenced her to shift away from her usual behavior. It seems that some more traditional (dare I say old fashioned)notion of "lost virtue" and devaluation may have invaded her thinking. Perhaps a well meaning friend or relative has given her the "Why buy the cow..." speech.

Is she really unhappy with the way the relationship is headed and the pace of reaching the various relationship milestones, or is some external party directly or indirectly imposing some kind of artificial time line?

Have all of her friends suddenly gotten engaged/married and now she feels caught up in that rush?

This is a very serious decision and may be right for her dependent on the circumstances (and could also end in misfortune), but I sincerely hope the woman knows exactly why she's doing what she's doing it (including acknowledging outside influences).

This is a huge red flag - good luck to her, I hope it works out.

HD

 

[Blackpaw]

Woo Hoo - engagement chicken

HopeDream''s hit the nail on the head, conversation over

(alas, that chicken hasnt worked for me

)

 

[Londongirl1]

Date: 7/17/2009 1:37:41 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 7/17/2009 9:55:46 AM
Author: LilyKat
I must say I'm a bit concerned by those who say that 'he might go elsewhere' is a valid reason for having sex.

If my boyfriend cared about and respected me so little that he would even think about 'going elsewhere' because I was not sleeping with him - for whatever reason - I would much rather know that before marriage rather than after...

No kidding! And last I checked, 'he might go elsewhere' is CHEATING.

He won't be CHEATING if he ends the relationship. The earlier post from TheDoctor is SPOT ON!

 

[allycat0303]

Hmm. I''m NOT going with the flow with this. I think that lots of woman have *moved out* with the intention of forcing him to propose. That''s pretty common. So I don''t really see this as being really different. I mean moving out, depriving him of your company etc., is ok, but denying him physical pleasure isn''t? I think she can withhold whatever she wants from him without being childish etc., he''s witholding something from her that she really wants, and she''s witholding something from him that he really wants. I think it''s all the same. That being said, I wouldn''t have personally withheld sex only. I think I would just have made myself very scarce. For a very long time. This is especially easy when you don''t live together.

 

[KimberlyH]

The idea of withholding anything in a relationship, whether it be sex, love, companionship, to get what one wants seems ridiculous to me. If you are so poorly matched that it is necessary to manipulate your partner to have your needs met then there are bigger things to worry about than a proposal.

I do agree a woman has a right to decide whom she has sex with, when, and where, but it seems a very seperate issue than the one being presented here. It doesn''t appear that she''s decided having sex was a mistake that she wants to correct because it''s harmed their relationship in some way; she is witholding with the intent of extracting something from him that he should want to give freely, not because she''s tied his hands. I can''t imagine wanting to be proposed to after using manipulation of any sort to get to that point.

 

[Little Monster]

my 1st thought was... yikes, that''s pretty juvenile...

I asked my BF for his reaction... and he said "hmm... sounds like she wants to be single!" I seemed a little surprised, but he said... if they''ve been having sex already, then she''s just a two year old jumping up & down in a temper tantrum & holding their breath until she turn blue just because she didn''t get her way...

 

[Laila619]

Date: 7/18/2009 5:02:22 AM
Author: Londongirl1

Date: 7/17/2009 1:37:41 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 7/17/2009 9:55:46 AM
Author: LilyKat
I must say I''m a bit concerned by those who say that ''he might go elsewhere'' is a valid reason for having sex.

If my boyfriend cared about and respected me so little that he would even think about ''going elsewhere'' because I was not sleeping with him - for whatever reason - I would much rather know that before marriage rather than after...

No kidding! And last I checked, ''he might go elsewhere'' is CHEATING.

He won''t be CHEATING if he ends the relationship. The earlier post from TheDoctor is SPOT ON!

Well sure, but it sounded like people were saying the guy would still stay, but get it on the side elsewhere. Ick!

 

[AllieGator]

I wound think she was childish, and probably pretty naive if she thought withholding sex was the way to get it.

If he's a smart guy, he'll realize that she's being childish, and might break up with her. If she's do this for an engagement, what else might she do it for?

She's setting herself up to be cheated on. I'm not condoning it, he's still a bad person for going elsewhere, but people like and our biologically driven to have sex. So he might go elsewhere.

Also, I don't think you can "go back" to what it's like before they did "the act of darkness" (as my high school english teacher called it.) Sex changes a relationship, for better or for worse, and I don't think that changes just by not having it.

Now if she REALLY wants him to propose, maybe she could kick it up a few notches, instead of withholding it...that would make him notice how awesome she was!

 

[supergirl10]

hmmm ....

I can understand this womans point of view and although it is not pleasant of me to admit it, i can remember being in a situation where i was getting that desparate for him to propose that i would have contemplated this lol.

that being said ... and knowing what i know now, i would do the exact opposite ie. tons of sex. lol my reasoning is that she would be the bigger person, and she would be showing him what life with a wife would be all about

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

I think he should run, not walk, far far away. Immature manipulation like that is unacceptable and an omen of things to come...

 

[Little Monster]

after reading more of the replies, this topic really started to bug me...

she is going to STOP having sex with her BF to force him into proposing...

this really doesn''t sound like a case to argue that a woman''s body is hers to do with as she pleases... it''s not like the guy is pressuring her into her 1st time, or anything else awful. she already chose to have sex with him (nothing wrong with that) & now wants to use that as leverage to get engaged. that is truly screwed up!

this isn''t even about making the sex more special, or connecting more, like abstaining from sex before marriage, or taking a few weeks break before the honeymoon!

she is taking a healthy aspect of a relationship & removing it until the man gets frustrated enough to fold (that''s her thinking). STUPID if you ask me...

 

[purelily]

I dont know... maybe i''m looking at this wrong, but after reading everyone else''s responses. i''m still feeling the same way. An ultimatum is not good for sure, but I''d still say that it depends on the circumstances and the how''s and whys of her doing this.

 

[iota]

LOL! Assuming he plans to marry her at some point, I think this is a sure-fire way to a maul store piece of frozen spit.

 

[Nomsdeplume]

Date: 7/17/2009 8:12:25 AM
Author: kribbie
If she had a religious reason to abstain until marriage that''s one thing, but if she''s just pushing him to propose...
Well, don''t say I didn''t warn ya when he goes and gets it somewhere else!

I would just like to correct the misunderstanding that seems to have arisen. I would NEVER condone cheating in any way, shape or form.
I meant that he would dump her and get it somewhere else. I never said he should/would get it on the side. THAT''S JUST WRONG!

 

[galeteia]

Date: 7/19/2009 11:21:04 PM
Author: purelily
I dont know... maybe i''m looking at this wrong, but after reading everyone else''s responses. i''m still feeling the same way. An ultimatum is not good for sure, but I''d still say that it depends on the circumstances and the how''s and whys of her doing this.

Still with you. I once refused to continue being intimate in a relationship until he agreed to see a therapist for his, er, ''issues'', because they were destroying our relationship and made me want to cut off limbs instead of be intimate with him any longer. I gave him 3 months to figure out what he was going to do, and then left when he refused to address his problem.

 

[purelily]

Galateia Sorry to hear that happened to you

I''m happy you found someone better

I think there are any number of reasons there could be an *ahem* dry spell. although she may have created this ultimatum, there may be an underlying deeper reason for this we are all not seeing.

 

[JulieN]

She can withhold whatever she wants, be it sex, companionship, food. If that doesn't make him try harder, and he instead goes and gets it elsewhere, then he's a d-bag and it shouldn't be any large loss to her.

I would always want to keep things fresh in a relationship, and never stop playing the game.

But if she told him her plan, well... I wouldn't expect too much out of it.

 

[FrekeChild]

I think games are stupid. If you have to play games in a "relationship" IMHO, it''s not a relationship. What happens when you stop playing games?

I''m with purelily I think. It depends on the context. If she''s doing this to reevaluate their relationship without sex involved, then the more power to her. If she''s doing it to just get him to propose faster...it''s probably going to backfire. But if you say, "I think I want to take a step back from physical intimacy to make sure that this is what I want." then yeah I think it''s a legitimate reason, and I applaud her for it. It''s incredibly difficult to add sex to a relationship and then have it taken away. If they can last through that...

 

[Haven]

Date: 7/18/2009 1:59:52 PM
Author: KimberlyH
The idea of withholding anything in a relationship, whether it be sex, love, companionship, to get what one wants seems ridiculous to me. If you are so poorly matched that it is necessary to manipulate your partner to have your needs met then there are bigger things to worry about than a proposal.

I do agree a woman has a right to decide whom she has sex with, when, and where, but it seems a very seperate issue than the one being presented here. It doesn''t appear that she''s decided having sex was a mistake that she wants to correct because it''s harmed their relationship in some way; she is witholding with the intent of extracting something from him that he should want to give freely, not because she''s tied his hands. I can''t imagine wanting to be proposed to after using manipulation of any sort to get to that point.

Exactly.

As for the discussion on woman''s right to withhold sex--I agree that women (and men) have the right to do whatever they please with their bodies, especially if they no longer feel comfortable being intimate with a partner.

However, if she at a point in their relationship where she isn''t comfortable being intimate with her partner (after having already been intimate with him) then HOW ON EARTH does she feel comfortable MARRYING him? This just does not compute. If she really is feeling disconnected and unable to have sex with him because of issues in the relationship, the *last* thing that should be on her mind is marriage. Her first concern should be to reconnect, reconfigure, rewhatever, so they can get on solid ground again.

purelily, I understand your point and I don''t disagree with you. It''s just that I don''t understand how she could possibly feel *both* uncomfortable being intimate with this man, *and* desperate to become engaged to him at the same time.

Trill, you asked what I would say or think to myself. I''d probably say "

" And I''d think "trainwreck."

 

[Sharon101]

I just want to add that manipulation is a red flag of a troubled relationship whether it be done with witholding of said services OR sweetening up the person we want to do our bidding. Both are the opposite sides of the same coin. When you set out to control someone or change them, it sometimes causes just as much damage to do it with conditional gifts and rewards as to do it meanly.

So, imo, doing the opposite of withholding sex, and going all out, in order to impress the partner into never wanting to leave, and therefor propose could work, or just add to the resentment of no proposal.

 

[jaylex]

This girls behavior should send up TONS of red flags to any guy.
It seems to me like she is throwing a temper tantrum and trying to "punish him" because he isn''t giving her exactly what she wants, exactly when she wants it.

I know a married couple very well... They are in their 40''s and she has been doing what that girl is doing for almost all of their marriage. She bragged to me that she withholds "nightly pleasures" when he doesn''t give her extra money to go shopping b/c their finances can''t allow for it that month, or when he visits his family for the day (she''s always invited, she just doesn''t like them), or any other time she doesn''t get what she wants.
Her 6 year old daughter has trouble sleeping on her own b/c this woman will often go sleep in her room (tells hubby that daughter is "scared") so that she doesn''t have to be intimate with him. She does it so often that a 6 (almost 7) year old who shares a room with her 12 year old sister gets scared when she is expected to sleep alone in her bed.

This is what that man is setting himself up for if he does propose. If he thinks it''ll stop after the ring, he''s crazy.

If a toddler screams her head off because she wants a piece of cake and mom gives in, the toddler will most def remember that when she wants a new stuffed animal... or to borrow her mom''s credit card for a splurge at the mall... or a brand new Hummer for her 16th birthday..

He better be careful to not give in to her "bad behavior". Otherwise he should just prepare himself to be spineless or sexless for the rest of his life.

 

[treefrog]

... so down the road, he wants a new car. She doesn''t think he needs one. He decides to withhold...

Then she wants a new purse...

Then he wants new golf clubs...

Why not just say "I''m going to hold my breath until you give me a ring?"

 

[misskitty]

Date: 7/21/2009 3:29:35 AM
Author: Haven

Date: 7/18/2009 1:59:52 PM

Author: KimberlyH

The idea of withholding anything in a relationship, whether it be sex, love, companionship, to get what one wants seems ridiculous to me. If you are so poorly matched that it is necessary to manipulate your partner to have your needs met then there are bigger things to worry about than a proposal.


I do agree a woman has a right to decide whom she has sex with, when, and where, but it seems a very seperate issue than the one being presented here. It doesn''t appear that she''s decided having sex was a mistake that she wants to correct because it''s harmed their relationship in some way; she is witholding with the intent of extracting something from him that he should want to give freely, not because she''s tied his hands. I can''t imagine wanting to be proposed to after using manipulation of any sort to get to that point.

Exactly.


As for the discussion on woman''s right to withhold sex--I agree that women (and men) have the right to do whatever they please with their bodies, especially if they no longer feel comfortable being intimate with a partner.


However, if she at a point in their relationship where she isn''t comfortable being intimate with her partner (after having already been intimate with him) then HOW ON EARTH does she feel comfortable MARRYING him? This just does not compute. If she really is feeling disconnected and unable to have sex with him because of issues in the relationship, the *last* thing that should be on her mind is marriage. Her first concern should be to reconnect, reconfigure, rewhatever, so they can get on solid ground again.


purelily, I understand your point and I don''t disagree with you. It''s just that I don''t understand how she could possibly feel *both* uncomfortable being intimate with this man, *and* desperate to become engaged to him at the same time.


Trill, you asked what I would say or think to myself. I''d probably say ''

'' And I''d think ''trainwreck.''

I absolutely agree. While I think that purelily and others brought up some great points, I''m inclined to think that either (a) that''s not the case and she''s playing a game here, or (b) what I bolded above in Haven''s reply.

 

[Erin]

I''m siding with Ally. Girls do a lot of things strange when she doesn''t feel like he reciprocates the same level of committment. Sometimes they make themselves scarce, move out, withhold, make more plans with family and friends...

It''s all because she no longer thinks he feels as strongly as she does and she is doubting his intentions. A gal can either run away/break it off/move out - or she can slowly pull away and see if he starts thinking Hey Wait... this isn''t what I want. I want more, not less. But in a gals mind, if she slowly backs away and he doesn''t seem to mind or notice, well then she has her answer. Now she knows she can run away/break it off/move out. It''s almost like a last chance gut check.

However if in the gals mind no proposal is directly linked to no sex, well that''s all the negative things that''s been said in black and white.
But if no sex equals the platform jump to a dwindling relationship, well then I''d have to say Yes, that''d be the first thing I''d cut off, too.

 

[blueroses]

I agree with several different viewpoints here.

On its face, the idea is totally childish and sends up huge red flags about the general health of a relationship--commodifies sex, mars intimacy, plays games.

On the other hand, I agree with Ally and Starset.
As many of us know first hand, the whole LIW experience can *feel* very much like witholding/manipulation on a boyfriend's/partner's part. To that end, it might not feel like such a far leap to take this route.

BUT....meeting bad behavior with bad behavior doesn't fix anything either.

Here's what I can speak to from my LIW experience the first time around: I was so mentally beaten down and jerked around from the manipulations and leash-yanking of "soon" that I was a wreck. I was totally depressed and didn't feel emotionally safe in the relationship...and as a result the intimacy in that relationship (physical and otherwise) was in shreds for a long time. So I can see how the whole "withholding sex in the absence of a ring" thing could happen very organically as each party is denying the other something--not as an overt THIS vs. THAT (as the OP's friend is talking about) but just an unconscious by-product of an unhealthy relationship. So happy I'm out of that. Oy.

 

[tlh]

the emotional rollercoaster of being a LIW is understandable about the desire to withhold sex. Honestly, if you are feeling rejected to the point that you "know he wants to be with you" but he''s not walking the walk, whatever excuse has been given, that you just feel trapped and confused, unable to enjoy the ride, because all you are waiting for is the NEXT STEP, because you''ve already been at that stage for so long, there is nothing more you can do in your relationship to move it forward... sometimes that can hurt.. maybe make you doubt yourself a little. I don''t get that luvin'' feelin'' when I''m down in the dumps, feeling blue. After awhile, some women do seriously start to doubt the relationship when they "don''t see the ring" but are afraid to leave a good man... because they have the dangling carrot, that he''s going to propose... just when??? who knows... and then the thought of "all the time invested into the relationship..." etc etc. But sometimes that can lead to low self esteem, and doesn''t exactly get the juices flowin.

But I think sometimes removing that, complication... and trying to get down to a more intimate level - emotionally and mentally, and not just putting the old puzzle pieces together.. CAN HELP.

Also I agre with the PP that said women often stay with a man in a bad relationship because the sex was good. BEEN THERE DONE THAT. Though I didn''t want a ring in that situation. I just like the ringing in the ears! HELLO!!

My BFF, did that. Removed sex from the equation. Figured out, he was never going to propose. You know what... he didn''t. After 7 years, he dumped her. But when she removed the sex from the equation, she found out they had little in common other than the physical relationship, but a mutual respect for one another. She is now in a much happier relationship, had far less waiting and will be married in about 10 weeks. So sometimes it works, just not in the way that was planned.

 

[QueenB29]

I can completely understand not wanting to be initmate with someone without a committment because I''ve been there, and if she has re-evaluated and feels differently about their relationship, i.e., emotionally she cannot continue to have sex with him if there''s no future, that''s one thing, but then again, if that''s the case, they should really just break up.

From the way Trillionaire described it, though, she''s trying to blackmail him. While you won''t find any stronger advocate of a woman''s right to choose her sexual partners than me, I don''t believe anyone should use sex as a weapon. Either to force it on someone, or to play games and blackmail someone by witholding it.
I mean, there are times I''m P.O.''ed at DH, and the last thing in the world I want to do is have sex with him, but I have never said, "I won''t have sex with you unless you do X."

I repeat: if that''s what their relationship has come to, it''s probably time to end it.