ACA vs. Excellent cut

[sledge]

If price is your driver, and you are okay with the same size these might be some great value options while keeping you with WF.

WF PS 1.33 H-VS2 @ $9,530 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4248575.htm

Near identical spread as your existing stone. Color & clarity bump. Not sure your existing cut quality, but I think you can see from the video, this sucker is a FIRECRACKER! While a PS (premium select), and not ACA, it still comes with the same great trade-in policy.

If you aren't aware, PS means it's GIA graded vs AGS graded. Also in this case, the stone has some extra green on the ASET on the edge and under the table, but nothing worrisome in the least. If AGS certified, I believe it would have fallen into the ES (expert select) line.


WF ES 1.33 I-SI1 @ $7,950 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4312119.htm

Again, spread is near identical. Cut is excellent and proven in the advanced images & videos. Stone is eye clean and keeps you at your minimum I color requirement.


WF ACA 1.607 I-SI1 @ $11,142 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4369226.htm

Maybe you just want to go big. 7.50mm! Meets minimum color & clarity requirements. WF states it's eye clean. Looks pretty amazing and under your $12k budget.

 

[adlgel]

Hey OP, can you post a copy of your cert for us to review? Seeing the proportions would help us compare your current cut quality to that of a new stone (rather super ideal or 3x).

I understand it's EGL. And I know this forum isn't a fan of those certs. Feel no shame. You were uneducated and frankly, the stone got the job done back then!

At least we have a starting point and whatever stone gets proposed & ultimately accepted I want you to be blown away with color & performance.



Just out of curiosity, have you talked with DK and can he modify your existing setting to work with a larger stone? Only asking because my wife's setting is very unique and going up too much in spread would create a real issue and likely require a new setting.

That may be cool with you, but just making sure so you don't get a shocking surprise.

I have that question into DK and am awaiting his response. I do assume there is some limit so will need to know before I purchase any stone bigger that the current stone but I also expect there is at least a little bit of wiggle room for sizing up.

 

[mx5_dvr]

You can accurately pinpoint 1 color grade between stones, but don't think others can pinpoint differences in cut?

You missed point. All I say was that like color and clarity, after certain point, in color it’s H/G, in clarity, it’s VS1/VS2, a better cut will have diminished return. It’s all about performance/price ratio.

I’m not saying cut is not important. It’s very important but it doesn’t have to be perfect either and that 1.32 ct one is more than good enough. It’s the excellent balance of 4C, for the price.

 

[adlgel]

Also @sledge here is a pic of the cert for my current diamond.

 

[kgizo]

I have WF ES earrings and they are sparkle bombs. If you are unsure about paying more for ACA you could select a PS or ES and see what you think. If you think something is missing you could try an ACA. WF’s upgrade policy makes it super easy to change out your diamond if at any point you want better color, clarity, or cut grade. I expect you will immediately notice an improvement from your current stone. Have fun shopping! This is an exciting purchase.

 

[mx5_dvr]

Also @sledge here is a pic of the cert for my current diamond.

I think my example of 1.32 will give you very noticeable upgrade on both cut and color. I’m not convinced at all any ACA will provide noticeable difference than my example without staring at them side by side, under certain controlled light conditions.

 

[luckygreen317]

Although my search was for 5 smaller stones, the HCA was a very valuable tool to measure the performance of the cuts.

For my solitaire, I went from an EGL H colored stone (that has a tint) to GIA H colored stone that is bright and white. I looked for light to medium fluorescence.

If your priorities are to go a little larger in a stone with a better cut in a H color, a GIA graded stone that rates well on the HCA should help make the decision.

Don't settle and take your time, nothing is worse than looking at a stone every day with a little regret.

 

[Gussie]

In my opinion, an ACA is definitely worth the premium. I had a very well cut XXX and it was lovely. When I took it to whiteflash and compared it to an ACA, I could not see the difference after a quick 5 minute comparison so I kept my XXX. When I bought studs about a year later, I decided to go with ACAs basically because they are so easy to choose. It was then that I could see the difference. After comparing my XXX ering to my ACA studs a few days in all different lighting at home, I could easily see a difference. And it was a difference that was worth the premium. When I traded in my XXX to WF (they were accepting trade ins at the time), it was labeled Premium Select so it definitely wasn't a poorly cut XXX, quite the opposite. This is a personal decision. For me, yes, I want the best and can see the difference in the best. Others may not either see it or think it worth the cost. If possible, I suggest comparing both in person before making your decision. My only regret is not going with an ACA sooner.

 

[rungirl]

This is a very interesting and educational conversation for me. I've not had the opportunity to see an ACA or other super ideal in person and have wondered if my eyes would even be discerning enough to see the difference.

For those of you who have seen both super ideal and non ideals, would you be willing to try to describe the difference in what you see? Is it more sparkle, better symmetry, more consistent sparkle in different lighting, etc?

 

[FL_runner]

I'm picky about inclusions, and could see the inclusion on the 1.5, but given it's a VS1, I would not worry about it. I would go for the 1.526. It's bigger and it's VS1. It's a great stone.

I agree!!! And the price seems reasonable for that cut/size/color/clarity, even compared against sites like BN and JA!!!

 

[adlgel]

I agree!!! And the price seems reasonable for that cut/size/color/clarity, even compared against sites like BN and JA!!!

I should have this one on hold and have asked Michelle at Whiteflash to take a live video of it so I can get a better sense of it. But I still need to get confirmation from DK that my current ring can accommodate a bit of a larger diamond.

 

[sledge]

You missed point. All I say was that like color and clarity, after certain point, in color it’s H/G, in clarity, it’s VS1/VS2, a better cut will have diminished return. It’s all about performance/price ratio.

I’m not saying cut is not important. It’s very important but it doesn’t have to be perfect either and that 1.32 ct one is more than good enough. It’s the excellent balance of 4C, for the price.

No, I think you missed my point. You can see minute difference between I & H colors and went through expense & hassle to switch, yet you want to tell others how (in your opinion) small differences in cut don’t matter and is good enough. That’s a double standard.

And while I agree that G & H is a good sweet spot for price value, I also realize that not everyone shares that same opinion. Some want better for cultural reasons that can’t really tell but “needs” the cert to say it and others like my wife that can spot the tiniest bit of color and prefers as little as possible. Thankfully, in my case, she is also color tolerant. But when upgrade time comes we will move to a D/E color most likely. Does this mean we will be foolishly spending and have bad price for “performance” if she can see it and it makes her happy?

In regards to clarity, SI1 offers the greatest value as most stones will be eye clean and offer the buyer the ability to crank the other C’s up a bit if they want.

Despite knowing SI1 is the best value, I purchased my wife a VS2. And you opted for a VS1 right? Mainly because we are anal and see more than the average bear so we found VALUE in a clarity bump.

Unlike market pricing, value is determined by personal preferences & viewpoints. Market pricing tells us the “best” diamond is as large as we can afford that is D-FL and cut to perfection.

I often wonder if the lovers of warm stones sit around and poke at those stuck in the middle of the color chart or opposite end while they enjoy steep discounts on a color they find the best anyhow.

Or what about the biggest psychological and personal preference, lab created vs earth created dimainds

I think my example of 1.32 will give you very noticeable upgrade on both cut and color. I’m not convinced at all any ACA will provide noticeable difference than my example without staring at them side by side, under certain controlled light conditions.

Your example of the 1.32 was based on a feeling and video you found appealing, until I popped in the cert & HCA score.

And quite honestly, an HCA score is just a tool to help confirm you are in the ballpark. Proportions get you a little closer. But advanced images will help solidify assumptions.

Two examples. The first is a thread I created awhile back where I found a messed up 34.5/40.8.

The second is a snip of a post I made in another thread with a 35.5/40.6 like your “good enough” stone you are pushing here.

Why Advanced Images Matter...A Bad 34.5/40.8...

I'm just as guilty as anyone. Helping someone find a stone and run across one with that 34.5/40.8 combo. You smile. You then run through the rest of the proportions.... 57 table, 61.7 depth, 75 LGF's, 50 stars and medium-slightly thick girdle....check, check, check,check and check You...

www.pricescope.com

******* SNIP OF OTHERTHREAD *******

GIA 3x 1.32 G-VVS1 @ $9,897 wire
https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/18626768/round-diamond-G-color-VVS1-Clarity?sku=18626768

GIA cert = https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6371839080

56t, 62.6d, 35.5c/40.6p & 75lgf

Including this one as a WARNING of what I am talking about with proportions. This has similar proportions to some of the stones we are discussing and looking at.

However, this stone happens to include an ASET. A very overly backlight one, but at least we have something. The black circle is where the stone is leaking. The rest of the light pink is part of that backlight saturation. But also we have some painting & digging going on and other oddities.

This stone checks by the proportions by being on the border and gets a decent HCA score. Yet this is one I would reject because of the ASET. Also, this shows why the HCA is a decent tool to help narrow down or eliminate bad stones but shouldn't be the final say. Advanced images always trump the HCA.

 

[musicloveranthony]

BS!

Provide links where a super ideal is 100-300% higher. I've helped lots of folks find stones and super ideals don't require that much premium.

Think about what you are saying. OP found a $12k ACA in her initial post. You're saying a comparable 3x would come in at $4-6k. Not going to happen.



Disclose the jewelers you speak of, and the wholesalers. Although in fairness, comparing wholesale to retail is a pretty unfair comparison.

I’m not interested in humoring you, since your replies demonstrate you have your mind made up. As I said, it’s not a popular opinion in this community. You’ve got your beliefs and experiences and I’ve got mine; they don’t need to intersect.

 

[sledge]

I’m not interested in humoring you. As I said, it’s not a popular opinion in this community and you’ve demonstrated that.

For clarity, I am open minded to finding a stone that isn’t super ideal and offers near the same beauty.

Where I fundamentally and strongly disagree is a 100-300% price premium for super ideals.

I do agree there is a price premium. It’s just not as severe as your initial statement eluded to.

Regardless, it was late, I have been sick the last few days and my filter was broke. No excuses as I take full responsibility for my words. I should have disagreed more respectfully and for that I offer you my sincere apologies as I would not have appreciated my strong response.

 

[musicloveranthony]

For clarity, I am open minded to finding a stone that isn’t super ideal and offers near the same beauty.

Where I fundamentally and strongly disagree is a 100-300% price premium for super ideals.

I do agree there is a price premium. It’s just not as severe as your initial statement eluded to.

Regardless, it was late, I have been sick the last few days and my filter was broke. No excuses as I take full responsibility for my words. I should have disagreed more respectfully and for that I offer you my sincere apologies as I would not have appreciated my strong response.

No hard feelings at all! I think I’m probably pretty spoiled by having friends in the industry because you’re very right that comparing wholesale to retail is unfair!

 

[LLJsmom]

This is a very interesting and educational conversation for me. I've not had the opportunity to see an ACA or other super ideal in person and have wondered if my eyes would even be discerning enough to see the difference.

For those of you who have seen both super ideal and non ideals, would you be willing to try to describe the difference in what you see? Is it more sparkle, better symmetry, more consistent sparkle in different lighting, etc?

I've seen and owned non-super ideal and AGS 000 and super ideal. But this is from someone who scrutinizes her stones, and actually cares a lot about how sparkly the stone is. I do believe there is a population out there that don't care that much, or don't notice. And it can take a while for people to notice. It took 9-12 months of wearing some of my stones to believe my own eyes, and my own observations.

I certainly can tell the difference. And you've described it very well for someone who hasn't seen a super ideal.

"more sparkle, better symmetry, more consistent sparkle in different lighting" is what I am definitely noticing. I've been testing various super ideals since last September. What I love the most is the consistent sparkle in various lighting and color environments. Different rooms have different colored walls, different exposure to daylight, incandescent light, fluorescent light, almost no light. I wore an OEC that did not have that consistency, and I had a very white 3x MRB that definitely had leakage other issues.

Not everyone needs a super ideal. However, there are people though that would prefer it if they knew the option existed. I think that people that become enthusiasts can appreciate the qualities of a super ideal. And for the relatively minor difference in price (which is debatable, but maybe minor from the perspective of a person who becomes an enthusiast), in the long run, a decent number of people would find the premium worth the higher quality of cut.

I'll be honest. I wish I had known these stones existed and known that I would care when I bought my own first upgrade 9 years ago. But you live and learn, and in my case, pay the price. It doesn't matter to me in the end if someone does or does not buy a super ideal. It's that they are exposed to all the options and be made aware that there are these types of stones out there. And IF the qualities of a super ideal are important to them, they can buy them. If not, it's fine. Just get what's good enough for them. But for someone to say that there is no difference as a blanket statement, that's wrong. That person making the statement may not see a difference, but it does not mean ALL people cannot see a difference. I exist, and I can see a difference.

 

[whitewave]

You missed point. All I say was that like color and clarity, after certain point, in color it’s H/G, in clarity, it’s VS1/VS2, a better cut will have diminished return. It’s all about performance/price ratio.

I’m not saying cut is not important. It’s very important but it doesn’t have to be perfect either and that 1.32 ct one is more than good enough. It’s the excellent balance of 4C, for the price.

To be honest, you are very misinformed. My HPD K color I think it’s SI1 has absolutely zero diminished performance and has scintillation and fire edge to edge.

While we prefer to welcome and include newbies, this is a hardcore website basically and you might need to exit this thread and make a new one for your discussion points. I say this with kindness.

The “4 C’s” You mention is an arbitrary marketing term, and one where cut is usually misconstrued to mean shape..

 

[whitewave]

I’m not interested in humoring you, since your replies demonstrate you have your mind made up. As I said, it’s not a popular opinion in this community. You’ve got your beliefs and experiences and I’ve got mine; they don’t need to intersect.

Just to let you know, Garry who is the inventor of the HCA is admin here. (Or the owner or whatever his official title is, pardon to Garry). This is the basis of this forum IMO and this is why your opinions aren’t popular in this community (Though some will agree with you, definitely).

 

[whitewave]

This is a very interesting and educational conversation for me. I've not had the opportunity to see an ACA or other super ideal in person and have wondered if my eyes would even be discerning enough to see the difference.

For those of you who have seen both super ideal and non ideals, would you be willing to try to describe the difference in what you see? Is it more sparkle, better symmetry, more consistent sparkle in different lighting, etc?

Edge to edge fire, light, scintillation and brilliance, in all lighting conditions and especially in low light. They look larger than other stones.

 

[whitewave]

This is a very interesting and educational conversation for me. I've not had the opportunity to see an ACA or other super ideal in person and have wondered if my eyes would even be discerning enough to see the difference.

For those of you who have seen both super ideal and non ideals, would you be willing to try to describe the difference in what you see? Is it more sparkle, better symmetry, more consistent sparkle in different lighting, etc?

Here is my 1.09 K si 1 super ideal HPD diamond.

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We will always say super ideals aren’t for everyone— some who have seen both together to compare prefer ideal cut.

Also, super ideals don’t always fit budgets for size, though the look larger than regular cut diamonds and usually have much better trade up policies of spend 1$ more instead of double.

Many of us are partial to small tables, along the lines of 54-55%. People vary as Kenny says.

 

[whitewave]

I have WF ES earrings and they are sparkle bombs. If you are unsure about paying more for ACA you could select a PS or ES and see what you think. If you think something is missing you could try an ACA. WF’s upgrade policy makes it super easy to change out your diamond if at any point you want better color, clarity, or cut grade. I expect you will immediately notice an improvement from your current stone. Have fun shopping! This is an exciting purchase.

If I understand it correctly, ACA has no fluro whereas expert selection might have fluro, but the fluro itself would bump it out of ACA title to expert selection.

I personally like fluro and sometimes will go out of my way to find it as it is a neat party trick and has a nice discount with it.

 

[lovedogs]

To be honest, you are very misinformed. My HPD K color I think it’s SI1 has absolutely zero diminished performance and has scintillation and fire edge to edge.

While we prefer to welcome and include newbies, this is a hardcore website basically and you might need to exit this thread and make a new one for your discussion points. I say this with kindness.

The “4 C’s” You mention is an arbitrary marketing term, and one where cut is usually misconstrued to mean shape..

This.

 

[whitewave]

From my own experiences comparing size for size, color, and clarity. Not that it's always the case, but that I have found instances in which it has been the case.

Poorly cut diamonds or diamonds with BMG body tones trade for less money than better cut diamonds with no BGM. Fluorescence also trades for less, but that is an arbitrary industry standard.

BTW, BMG isn’t designated on certificates with colors from D-J iirc.

 

[Txborn79]

I personally compared a GIA XXX to two different “super idea” diamonds (CBI and ACA) before I decided on my upgrade. I could tell the difference as could my 14 yro daughter and decided with the amount of money we were spending, why not go for the best cut I could get?

Had I not been able to compare, would I have been ok with the XXX? Probably, but I think there would have always been a nagging feeling of could I have gotten something better.

 

[whitewave]

@adlgel I know you are ok with I color but I also know you were uneducated 26 years ago... I thought I color is ok too but in the end I switched to H because once you see it (the tint), you will always see it. Again a psychological thing.

If you do some research, G is the most popular color and H is the second most popular, and price jump from I to H and from H to G are both pretty big compared to other one level upgrades (like from J to I or G to F, etc).

There is a reason for that kind of demand for H or G... I’m now convinced H is the lowest I want to go.

UUGH.

Ok. Let me explain some things to you. We here are diamond enthusiasts, hobby diamonders (I made up a word), collectors of diamonds and or trade.

You prefer higher color diamonds, which is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. You are tint sensitive and some people are and some people aren’t. (I can be but it depends).

I also think you haven’t seen many diamonds and you have bought into the idea that higher color diamonds are better and lower color diamonds are bad. The industry likes this mentality.

The truth is, higher and lower color diamonds are different. Just like morning sun differs from evening sun or sunrise also differs from sunset, even though they are all the sun in all its glory.

Also, just like with color metals and skin tones, some diamond colors might appeal more to people depending on how they show next to skin tone.

I personally own diamonds from D-M/N color and am always on the lookout for U-V.

Many of us here own D/E through P/Q. I’m thinking of @cflutist in particular who has several colors of HPD diamonds. Wink has a P color for his ring that you would swear is a J.

A super ideal P will perform just as well as a super ideal D.




Now back to the OP. I’m very excited for you to get a new diamond. My 1993 original uncertified diamond (uncertified was the standard back then) is a D color, very strong fluorescence, I1 but eye clean diamond. It is now a pendant.

I have two engagement rings now (why have just one. Lol) — a 1.52 G Vs1 asscher I had set into a CVB Inspired designs micropave split shank and also I have the 1.09 K Si1 HPD super ideal round.



this pic below was taken to showcase the asscher, since they are very hard to photograph. As a result, the round is askew and isn’t in focus.

 

[whitewave]

For clarity, I am open minded to finding a stone that isn’t super ideal and offers near the same beauty.

Where I fundamentally and strongly disagree is a 100-300% price premium for super ideals.

I do agree there is a price premium. It’s just not as severe as your initial statement eluded to.

Regardless, it was late, I have been sick the last few days and my filter was broke. No excuses as I take full responsibility for my words. I should have disagreed more respectfully and for that I offer you my sincere apologies as I would not have appreciated my strong response.

To continue on this point, I started my studs with Blue Nile. .88ctw e vs2 (after I sent them back for upgrade, they were given Astor ideal status). I traded them in (because I was stuck with blue Nile) for 1.4 ctw F si1 with near super ideal stats, passed the HCA and everyone’s opinions here. They are amazing and I love them.

HOWEVER, even though I thought 1.4 was surely large enough, DSS set in. What to do now? If I had gone super ideal, I could easily trade up with in house and better stones so much easier than the 2 weeks I spend with my ciphering notebook (DH thought I was having a mental breakdown, lol because he couldn’t understand what TDCP meant.) I also would have been able to spend just a dollar more.

if I want to upgrade these with Blue Nile, I have to spend another 5k (10k total cost for the set) which is more than I want to spend.

It was the same thing with my asscher. (Though in the end with the asscher, because well cut asschers are so hard to find, I think I made the correct decision to keep the one I have)... I would have wanted to go up to a 1.8 asscher, but I would have had to spend another 9k which I didn’t want to spend because that would have put me larger than I wanted at the time and more money at the time).

So, for the studs, I stayed at 1.4 ctw and had Brian Gavin make me custom Cushion shape jackets and for the asscher I had CVB ID make me a gorgeous new setting.

There is a lot to talk about that has been brought up in this thread, which is why I think a new thread with newbie opinions would make a better option since it is diluting the OP’s thread, who clearly wants to try a WF diamond, which I support and applaud.

In the end, it’s so much easier to buy a super ideal diamond because they are in house and have already been vetted.

 

[daisygrl]

Edge to edge fire, light, scintillation and brilliance, in all lighting conditions and especially in low light. They look larger than other stones.

I could not agree more. I would like to add (and it is my observation of someone who has a sight of an eagle and scrutinize her diamonds like no one) - that super-ideal cuts (might it be HPD, VC, ACA) hide color easier. I used to own 1.92 G XXX (GIA) and when compared to my 2.13 H HPD (bigger and a color grade down - so one would assume you could see the tint even more), it turned out my HPD actually looked whiter. So I took the 1.92 to David Klass, and he guessed the color to be an I because of the cut.

Personally, I want hassle-free purchase where I know I am getting the best. Non-branded XXX does not cut it for me. It is too much money to settle.

 

[whitewave]

I could not agree more. I would like to add (and it is my observation of someone who has a sight of an eagle and scrutinize her diamonds like no one) - that super-ideal cuts (might it be HPD, VC, ACA) hide color easier. I used to own 1.92 G XXX (GIA) and when compared to my 2.13 H HPD (bigger and a color grade down - so one would assume you could see the tint even more), it turned out my HPD actually looked whiter. So I took the 1.92 to David Klass, and he guessed the color to be an I because of the cut.

Personally, I want hassle-free purchase where I know I am getting the best. Non-branded XXX does not cut it for me. It is too much money to settle.

Exactly. This is my K. It never “looks” like a K. (The IG video is better than these pics though)

@cflutist has pics of her HPD diamonds in super low light, and to me that is where super ideals spend their money. They will outshine and outperform in very low lighting conditions because they are cut so well that they efficiently take in any light, even hardly any, and shine brightly and put on a show.

 

[whitewave]

My sapphire and HPD diamond ring shows this low light performance. Again, my apologies to the bride.

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[adlgel]

Although I don't foresee myself upgrading if I get a new diamond, the Whiteflash upgrade policy is really too attractive to dismiss. That, their in-house inventory and their ease of online shopping (full certs readily available) is really why I landed on them as my preferred vendor. I also just had a very pleasant experience with them on a DBTY bracelet so it seemed worth it to work with them on what will likely be my largest jewelry purchase ever.