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Do you get Botox? Why or why not?

My Sil (UK based) has it for MS. One of her symptoms is a 'bobbing head' where her head is constantly bobbing about. She has Botox injected into her neck every 3 months and for a while at least her head will sit still and she has some relief.
 
I am honestly curious, do vegans have leather shoes or other goods? If so, how do they reconcile that with their beliefs? I think quite a few here in this thread have leather goods.
 
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Gussie said:
I am honestly curious, do vegans have leather shoes or other goods? If so, how do they reconcile that with their beliefs? I think quite a few here in this thread have leather goods.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that strictly speaking, "vegan" means no animal products, period, at least as much as possible, which would include no leather.

I went vegan for a few years. It started just with going plant-based on food, trying to bring my cholesterol down. Then, the more I learned, the more into veganism I got. I no longer liked leather or other animal products and cut those out too. But I've recently come back more to "the middle," though still vegan-ish.

I'm not the most knowledgeable though. For ex., I didn't know until this thread that Botox was tested on animals.

Personally, I also make a distinction between killing an animal quickly (for food or whatever) and causing an animal to suffer.

My guess is there are a lot more people who are "vegan-ish" than "vegan." Well, I may never have been fully "vegan" because I always provided meat, dairy etc. for family members and guests. All JMO
 
seaurchin said:
Personally, I also make a distinction between killing an animal quickly (for food or whatever) and causing an animal to suffer.
Click to expand...

Ditto. There’s a huge difference killing animals quickly and painlessly for food versus torturing and murdering them for cosmetic reasons. And anyone equating them knows darn well it’s a false equivalency
 
Gussie said:
I am honestly curious, do vegans have leather shoes or other goods? If so, how do they reconcile that with their beliefs? I think quite a few here in this thread have leather goods.
Click to expand...

I personally haven’t bought any leather goods for years.


Now it’s my turn if I may. I am honestly curious @Gussie if you think it’s ok to torture and murder animals so you can Botox your wrinkles? Serious question. I’d appreciate an answer since I was kind enough to answer your question

I don’t want to come off as hostile and I fully realize I won’t be changing anyone’s viewpoint. But I’d love to understand how you rationalize hurting animals for vanity’s sake? I understand those who need it for health issues but for non medical issues I don’t understand how one can reconcile this.
 
Count me as one of the surprised that Botox is tested on animals. Maybe it shouldn’t be that surprising though, aren’t all pharmaceutical drugs tested on animals?

edited for clarity
 
Well, I'm ancient and it wouldn't do me much good. But the thought of injecting poising in my face, so close to my eyes, makes me say hell no! I realize there seem to be very few problems with it, but I wouldn't want to be the exception. Now if I was much younger? I don't know if I would want to take the risk or not.

Fillers and lip injections? Not at any age, for me.
 
Tonks said:
I’ve heard that Dysport lasts longer than Botox. Does it for you? I always end up with headaches ramping up like crazy when I’m near my next due date for injections. Wish I could try and find out but the only one they will use for migraine is the original Botox.
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IMO no BUT it deactivates more gradually on me so I can stretch it out without needing to get it done. It's starts to weaken at the end of month 3 and by 4 I get redone.
 
missy said:
I personally haven’t bought any leather goods for years.


Now it’s my turn if I may. I am honestly curious @Gussie if you think it’s ok to torture and murder animals so you can Botox your wrinkles? Serious question. I’d appreciate an answer since I was kind enough to answer your question

I don’t want to come off as hostile and I fully realize I won’t be changing anyone’s viewpoint. But I’d love to understand how you rationalize hurting animals for vanity’s sake? I understand those who need it for health issues but for non medical issues I don’t understand how one can reconcile this.
Click to expand...

Hi... was just wondering if you saw my post above? Here is a snippet...

Allergen, the major US manufacturer of Botox, uses cell based testing, since 2018 (they started in 2011), and even prior it was only batch testing on animals, not every single vial (not saying that’s better, just for clarification). While Europe was behind, they have also started used cell based testing. There is a lot of data to support this. No one in America is torturing animals for their wrinkes, or lack thereof.
 
FornasettiLover said:
Hi... was just wondering if you saw my post above? Here is a snippet...

Allergen, the major US manufacturer of Botox, uses cell based testing, since 2018 (they started in 2011), and even prior it was only batch testing on animals, not every single vial (not saying that’s better, just for clarification). While Europe was behind, they have also started used cell based testing. There is a lot of data to support this. No one in America is torturing animals for their wrinkes, or lack thereof.
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing. I haven’t had a chance to research this but when I do I will

Though I don’t know how you can definitively say “no one in America is torturing animals for their wrinkles” because I’ve read the opposite. And even your post suggests yes they are testing some batches on animals
 
Gussie said:
I am honestly curious, do vegans have leather shoes or other goods? If so, how do they reconcile that with their beliefs? I think quite a few here in this thread have leather goods.
Click to expand...


missy said:
I personally haven’t bought any leather goods for years.


Now it’s my turn if I may. I am honestly curious @Gussie if you think it’s ok to torture and murder animals so you can Botox your wrinkles? Serious question. I’d appreciate an answer since I was kind enough to answer your question

I don’t want to come off as hostile and I fully realize I won’t be changing anyone’s viewpoint. But I’d love to understand how you rationalize hurting animals for vanity’s sake? I understand those who need it for health issues but for non medical issues I don’t understand how one can reconcile this.
Click to expand...
I do not consider animal testing "murder" or "torture." I do consider this as hostile language though, very similar to anti-abortionists shouting "murder."

The botulism toxin was originally studied as a treatment for cross eyes. Since it worked so well for that condition, further study has proved it useful for quite a few medical conditions to the benefit of so many. The fact that it can help with wrinkles is just an added bonus.

I immensely appreciate modern medicine. Animal testing is an unfortunate but necessary part of advancement. I hardly think using a product that has been animal tested is justifying "murder."

Judge not lest you be judged.
 
Gussie said:




I do not consider animal testing "murder" or "torture." I do consider this as hostile language though, very similar to anti-abortionists shouting "murder."

The botulism toxin was originally studied as a treatment for cross eyes. Since it worked so well for that condition, further study has proved it useful for quite a few medical conditions to the benefit of so many. The fact that it can help with wrinkles is just an added bonus.

I immensely appreciate modern medicine. Animal testing is an unfortunate but necessary part of advancement. I hardly think using a product that has been animal tested is justifying "murder."

Judge not lest you be judged.
Click to expand...

I don’t think all judging is bad. As I wrote above judging can be necessary in some circumstances. Where is our humanity? Animal testing is cruel and is torture despite your rationalizations. As I wrote above I won’t change your mind nor am I trying to. I just wanted to understand where you were coming from and now I know. Very disappointing. I won’t ever think it’s ok to torture and murder helpless animals for vanity’s sake. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
 
missy said:
I don’t think all judging is bad. As I wrote above judging can be necessary in some circumstances. Where is our humanity? Animal testing is cruel and is torture despite your rationalizations. As I wrote above I won’t change your mind nor am I trying to. I just wanted to understand where you were coming from and now I know. Very disappointing. I won’t ever think it’s ok to torture and murder helpless animals for vanity’s sake. Just because you can doesn’t mean you
Click to expand...
Sorry to disappoint. I'm disappointed in the self-righteous considering you have such an awesome boot collection.
 
missy said:
Thank you for sharing. I haven’t had a chance to research this but when I do I will

Though I don’t know how you can definitively say “no one in America is torturing animals for their wrinkles” because I’ve read the opposite. And even your post suggests yes they are testing some batches on animals
Click to expand...

My post does not suggest that. The article I linked in the post you didn't see (or refer to), and others available, show that originally it WAS, but is NO longer, due to stringent US laws. Europe unfortunately is behind but catching up. I certainly don't discount that it is fierce animal advocates such as yourself that helped achieve this outcome. Thank you for your passion.

Let us also remeber the reason the animal testing was initially allowed is because it was developed for medical use. Much like Remicaid, a drug referred to on this board, that is still tested on animals, but is considered medically necessary.

I believe this issue is important and having all of the information is critical, not just the google headlines.

I also don't believe in making people feel small. I think empathy should extend to well intentioned humans, not just animals. I believe most people are good. I have to. I'm a children's ED doctor and I see what horrible things people can perpetrate, but that is the minority.
 
Gussie said:
Sorry to disappoint. I'm disappointed in the self-righteous considering you have such an awesome boot collection.
Click to expand...

Thank you :)

But pot calling kettle black
 
FornasettiLover said:
My post does not suggest that. The article I linked in the post you didn't see (or refer to), and others available, show that originally it WAS, but is NO longer, due to stringent US laws. Europe unfortunately is behind but catching up. I certainly don't discount that it is fierce animal advocates such as yourself that helped achieve this outcome. Thank you for your passion.

Let us also remeber the reason the animal testing was initially allowed is because it was developed for medical use. Much like Remicaid, a drug referred to on this board, that is still tested on animals, but is considered medically necessary.

I believe this issue is important and having all of the information is critical, not just the google headlines.

I also don't believe in making people feel small. I think empathy should extend to well intentioned humans, not just animals. I believe most people are good. I have to. I'm a children's ED doctor and I see what horrible things people can perpetrate, but that is the minority.
Click to expand...

I will not apologize for feeling passionate about protecting helpless animals. I do not apologize for anything I wrote in this thread. I’m good with people not liking my posts. I’m not and never will be a people pleaser. I do what I think is right. In all situations.

TY for helping others in your profession. Passion matters. And making a difference matters. Thank you for making a difference for the humans you help. As for compassion and empathy for those who deserve it I have an abundance of it. My whole career was dedicated to helping the underserved population. And I found it extremely rewarding as I’m sure you do too.

And yes without people who care animals would be in much worse shape. But we have such a long way to go. :(
 
missy said:
Fortunately in 2023 there are better options.
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I don't foresee there ever being a time when there are no animals used in medical research.

The current strategies of PETA -- harassing investigators and institutions into, essentially, changing their line of research -- serves no one.

That Humane Society link lumps them all together with rodents but there are almost no dogs, cats, or non-human primates used in research. And I've killed more mice in my garage than I ever have in the lab.

Animal research is like abortion -- it ain't great but it's better than the alternative.
 
LilAlex said:
I don't foresee there ever being a time when there are no animals used in medical research.

The current strategies of PETA -- harassing investigators and institutions into, essentially, changing their line of research -- serves no one.

That Humane Society link lumps them all together with rodents but there are almost no dogs, cats, or non-human primates used in research. And I've killed more mice in my garage than I ever have in the lab.

Animal research is like abortion -- it ain't great but it's better than the alternative.
Click to expand...

Agreed
But there are more humane ways with which to do research
 
Can't afford botox. If I could, looks like I've got some reading to do.
 
@missy, I would like to apologize for my last comment. That was unnecessary, ugly, and I was raised better.

I need to stay off these threads. It's so damn hot here in Texas that I have nothing else to do!
 
Demon said:
I did learn a few good things from this thread. Botox for teeth clenching, and the PDO threads are something I could consider.
Click to expand...

They're a great option to do SOMETHING if you don't want any toxins. I've been reading up on the Morpheus laser treatment too which seems to give very impressive results. I would absolutely consider it as I approach 40 if fine lines really start to bother me.
 
Gussie said:
@missy, I would like to apologize for my last comment. That was unnecessary, ugly, and I was raised better.

I need to stay off these threads. It's so damn hot here in Texas that I have nothing else to do!
Click to expand...

Thanks @Gussie and same here. I’m sorry I let my passion about this issue cause me to be rude to you. I also apologize. ♥️

And please don’t stay off the threads. It’s so slow here as it is. Lol. Stay cool. I am not a fan of the heat either
 
FornasettiLover said:
@missy , @mrs-b

I hope you are open to new sources of information.

Allergen, the major US manufacturer of Botox, uses cell based testing, since 2018 (they started in 2011), and even prior it was only batch testing on animals, not every single vial (not saying that’s better, just for clarification). While Europe was behind, they have also started used cell based testing.

I think it’s important to get all the information available before rushing to judgement. I hope this helps.

ETA: this is just one source, there are many, the US has been clean for years. Europe is still struggling.

Also ETA: the Us has plenty of problems, but this isn’t one. And we are
the biggest consumers of this product.

Also ETA: I’m vain and I use Botox for my glabellar lines (the 11s) and it markedly improved my self esteem and my outward appearance of constantly frowning. I also use leather shoes and bags and am not vegan. Despite this I think I am a good person.

IMG_0742.jpeg
Click to expand...

Hi @FornasettiLover -

You don't have to hope I'm open to new information; you can assume I'm open to new information. I'm not trying to bang a drum here - I want to see animals unharmed through our consumerism. So if you can show me that, then I'm all for it and will throw my hands in the air and say hooray with the best of them
.
In my own online trawling, I came across the same article you did re Europe. But I haven't found any articles that seemed detailed and legit that show the US not using animal testing in the production of botox. I'm aware there is a cell-based assay testing method that can replace the live animal testing. Has it been mandated tho? Has every company adopted it? If it hasn't been mandated, can you pls show me a list of the companies that have adopted it?

Yes, I'm aware it's per batch rather than every vial. Not sure that helps the animals killed in the process tho.

You can assume when I hold a position this generally unpopular, I've done my homework. I don't adopt these positions without reading widely first, and I couldn't find the "many sources" to which you referred. I did look for them, tho, and would be genuinely encouraged to read them. And you will rarely find me...er..."rushing to judgement". For instance, Dysport is rapidly increasing its market share in the US (it's a bit of a Coke vs Pepsi thing, granted, but Dysport is definitely on the rise), and it does still test on animals. Allergen also said in one of its very few full disclosure media statements that the cell-based assay testing method would eliminate 95% of animal testing - which is great, but agony for the remaining 5%. And just to add, Sourcewatch bluntly states that Allergan tests on animals. So, for me, the issue is murky at best.

Teva Pharmaceuticals bought the generic arm of Allergan, and I'm not sure if they do animal testing. They have since sold 10% of their stock to Pfizer, which makes Pfizer the largest Teva stakeholder, and Pfizer has a very dirty record re animal testing. Also, many companies farm out their animal testing to third parties, allowing them to claim "no animal testing / cruelty free", when this is not strictly accurate.

So, plenty here to consider.

And I'm not accusing you of not being a good person. Let's not go down that path, ok?
 
mrs-b said:
Hi @FornasettiLover -

You don't have to hope I'm open to new information; you can assume I'm open to new information. I'm not trying to bang a drum here - I want to see animals unharmed through our consumerism. So if you can show me that, then I'm all for it and will throw my hands in the air and say hooray with the best of them
.
In my own online trawling, I came across the same article you did re Europe. But I haven't found any articles that seemed detailed and legit that show the US not using animal testing in the production of botox. I'm aware there is a cell-based assay testing method that can replace the live animal testing. Has it been mandated tho? Has every company adopted it? If it hasn't been mandated, can you pls show me a list of the companies that have adopted it?

Yes, I'm aware it's per batch rather than every vial. Not sure that helps the animals killed in the process tho.

You can assume when I hold a position this generally unpopular, I've done my homework. I don't adopt these positions without reading widely first, and I couldn't find the "many sources" to which you referred. I did look for them, tho, and would be genuinely encouraged to read them. And you will rarely find me...er..."rushing to judgement". For instance, Dysport is rapidly increasing its market share in the US (it's a bit of a Coke vs Pepsi thing, granted, but Dysport is definitely on the rise), and it does still test on animals. Allergen also said in one of its very few full disclosure media statements that the cell-based assay testing method would eliminate 95% of animal testing - which is great, but agony for the remaining 5%. And just to add, Sourcewatch bluntly states that Allergan tests on animals. So, for me, the issue is murky at best.

Teva Pharmaceuticals bought the generic arm of Allergan, and I'm not sure if they do animal testing. They have since sold 10% of their stock to Pfizer, which makes Pfizer the largest Teva stakeholder, and Pfizer has a very dirty record re animal testing. Also, many companies farm out their animal testing to third parties, allowing them to claim "no animal testing / cruelty free", when this is not strictly accurate.

So, plenty here to consider.

And I'm not accusing you of not being a good person. Let's not go down that path, ok?
Click to expand...

That Allergan media release was from 2011! I do dislike that google does that.

I hope you aren't accusing me of not being a good person! I did not say that. Respectfully ma'am, I said that my own choices don't make me a bad person. It was meant more as a social commentary about people are judged.

If, in fact, Botulin was still tested on animals in the US, and if I needed it for migraines, I would use it the same way I would use any of the popular immunomodulators for arthtitis or IBD. Drug testing in big pharma is murky for sure.

I'm mostly really confused about why Europe is so far behind on this. Does anyone across the pond have a good perspsective on this?
 
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