Have you experienced sexual harassment at work? How did you handle it?

[monarch64]

I'm dealing with a situation and I'm not sure how to handle it. Looking for advice but please be kind because this is a tough position to be in.

I've been working part-time at this company for almost two years (I left for four weeks and went back). My schedule is mostly nights, so I only see my managers on the weekends when I work during the day. There are two managers in my department and the female manager quit this week. The male manager started putting his arm around my waist soon after I started and I told the female manager about it and it stopped. Now she is gone and the first day I worked with the other manager (yesterday) he put his arm around my waist, I didn't say anything to him, I think I was in disbelief it was happening again.

This male manager has done the same thing to other female employees and forced one of them to hug him. Nobody has filed a formal complaint to my knowledge. The general attitude in the department is “well that’s just him and he doesn’t mean anything by it.” I have never said anything to this manager even though this touching makes me extremely uncomfortable, I can't explain why but maybe I just didn’t want to make waves being new. It’s obvious though that now the other manager is gone, this is going to start up again and I can't let this continue.

Quitting at this point is not an option, it’s not about money, I just don't want to leave, I've made friends there, enjoy my job and (apart from this touching) it’s good for my mental health. I am part of a union and there would be video evidence of this latest incident, I have considered getting the union involved but I’m wondering if just telling him to stop will be enough. I don’t really want to report him to HR because I think they may try to get rid of the problem (me) since they are now down a manager and I’m easily replaceable. I could change my weekend hours to work at night and completely avoid him but as itnia I only see my family for dinner once a week.

Just looking for any advice from people who have gone through this and successfully gotten it to stop.

This is super triggering for me and has me nearly in tears. I have been through this before (similar, at least) more than once. I will compose my thoughts and reply later.

Editing to add:

I’ll spare you my specific incidents. Just know you are not alone and that oftentimes things DO work out in the person who has been harrassed’s favor. (Terrible sentence structure pls forgive me!)

What struck me about your post and made me emotional is the fact that you care about this job not because of financial reasons, but because you genuinely like working there and you like your co-workers. That makes it VERY hard to just march into a higher-up’s office and give them the business about what’s been happening.

You may have to let go of your comfort zone job, I’m afraid. The way I see it is you have two choices:

1. Document, report, let them terminate you, sue.

2. Document, report, let them terminate him, carry on in an environment that will very likely change and perhaps not in your favor.

If this idiot has the audacity to say anything to you besides “I am so sorry, it will never happen again,” I would say to him “do you put your arm around men’s waists when you speak to them?”

I had some things happen to me as a child. I learned quickly to be very, very mean. It was a coping mechanism and it helped sometimes to keep certain things from happening to me. But you can’t take that hardness into work as a woman, (“what a bitch!”) and you’re always told “it’s not all men.”

There’s a trend going around the internet: would you rather be alone in the woods with a man or a bear?

Almost all women answer “the bear.”

No one is going to assume that a woman was killed by a bear when she went into the woods.

If a woman is attacked by a bear, no one will ask what she was wearing.

@YadaYadaYada I am so sorry this is happening to you. I wish I could be there to OOPS! kick him in the back of the knee, or worse. And I really hope this all works out in your favor monetarily.

 

[missy]

@YadaYadaYada I am very sorry this is happening. You've received excellent advice. Just want to repeat a few things

1. Put everything in writing and keep it away from work

2. Report not only to HR but to a superior so you cover the bases and take notes about what was said

3. Go to your union and report it to the union representative

4. If you feel nothing is being done I would file a legal complaint with a government agency: either with your state’s anti-discrimination or civil rights agency Fair Employment Practices Agency), or with the federal (national) Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC).

5. Unfortunately there are deadlines within which you can take legal action (sue) so be aware of your state's deadline regarding this (just in case but hopefully it won't come to that)


I would not engage further with the harasser. You have already asked him to stop. That is enough. it is time to report to a superior and take further action as necessary. There is no legal requirement either to ask the harasser to stop. It is enough you feel you are being harassed. If you do feel comfortable asking him again I would bring a witness so you have further proof but again IMO, I do not feel you need to engage with him further.

Also, you should have an employee manual and if not I would get another copy and review their policies about harassment

6. Lastly, keep copies of complaints or reports you file with your company, and all responses.

IIRC you are in Connecticut. I looked up the rules there and here is some info fyi

New Sexual Harassment Law in Connecticut Goes Into Effect Soon

Employers in Connecticut have about a month to get ready for the changes to the state’s sexual harassment law.

www.govdocs.com

Sexual Harassment in the Workplace – United Way of Connecticut – 211 and eLibrary

uwc.211ct.org

Good luck Stephanie. Sending good thoughts your way and again very sorry you are experiencing this. It makes me so very angry! @#$&%*#@!!!!!!!

 

[lulu_ma]

So sorry you have to deal with this @YadaYadaYada ! I hope all goes smoothly today.

 

[lavenderdragonfly23]

My thoughts are with you… please know you have an army of women behind you, who have walked this road.

Stand your ground. Know there will be a fight, bury your heels, gather your strength and fight.

20 years ago I worked for a man that sexually harassed and stalked me for months. HR was notified and did nothing… in fact they told him it was me who turned him in. I ended up taking them to court and my deposition alone took 6 hours for me to document each incident.

Fight girl, don’t stay silent.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

I’m going to catch up from yesterday and respond to everyone tomorrow, when I’m home alone during the day, and can do so uninterrupted.

@monarch64 I did just want to say that I’m so sorry for everything you have been through. Sorry this was so triggering for you. I didn’t share all my interactions with this creep here but there is no question in my mind who he really is, I see it clear as day. My other co-workers may not want to deal with it but they both work full time and rely on their incomes, they can’t risk losing their job and I’m sure he knows that. Talk about abuse of power, it’s really sickening.

 

[empliau]

I’m going to catch up from yesterday and respond to everyone tomorrow, when I’m home alone during the day, and can do so uninterrupted.

@monarch64 I did just want to say that I’m so sorry for everything you have been through. Sorry this was so triggering for you. I didn’t share all my interactions with this creep here but there is no question in my mind who he really is, I see it clear as day. My other co-workers may not want to deal with it but they both work full time and rely on their incomes, they can’t risk losing their job and I’m sure he knows that. Talk about abuse of power, it’s really sickening.

@YadaYadaYada - you've received a lot of good advice. I've experienced this in the workplace, happening both to me and to co-workers. It is still emotional enough for me that I can't say much, except I am glad that you are seeing it so clearly. Strength to you, my dear friend, and always keep in mind that you deserve a safe place of work. I hope it will be so for you soon.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Quick update, my thoughts may come across as scattered because I am still rattled.

I went and talked to him this morning, waiting until Saturday would have driven me crazy. It caught him completely by surprise that I was there and told him I needed to talk to him about something. I said:

“You probably didn't realize it Friday when I was working but you put your arm around me and I really hate when you do that and I hate being touched in general. I need you to please stop touching me, it makes me really uncomfortable and I hate it.”

Probably not the most well thought out but got the point across and he apologized and said he didn't realize it but I could tell he was in a state of panic (this wasn very satisfying to witness btw). Then he hit me with “I just care about people” had I been not as stressed I probably would have told him if he cared about people then he needed to keep his hands to himself. Instead I said that I understood and there were no hard feelings. All lies of course but for my own comfort I needed to go the nice route.

He knows what he is doing and he probably has never been confronted about it before. He isn't sorry he did it, he’s sorry he finally met his match. I told one of the other women he is touching that she needs to stand up for herself too or its never going to get better.

This really shook me up but I am damn proud that I did this.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@nala thanks for your advice about going to the union, I have personally put him on notice now and that will be my next step of it happens again.

@Lookinagain @Matata I confronted him and told him not to touch me anymore, something I should have done in the beginning but hopefully this will be it. If not I’m going to take it to the next level.

@glitterata, thank you for all of your helpful advice, I decided to talk to him first, I felt this was a reasonable first step but if it doesn’t stop then I will be going to the union, this is not going to continue as long as I’m there.

@Begonia, I talked to him today and told him that I hated him touching me and he needed to stop. He apologized (I don’t buy it) and hopefully it will stop now that he knows he can’t get away with it.

@seaurchin, when I texted my female manager on Saturday to wish her well, I asked her if she ever said anything to him and she never did. It seems like it was just a coincidence that it stopped after I talked to her. Since it was never brought to his attention, I decided to talk to him as a first step before escalating it.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@newtojewels, thank you so much, I appreciate the support.

@dk168, I’m glad you haven’t had this experience, nobody should have to worry about unwanted touching at work in this day and age. Funny thing is there were two other employees working at the time but they had both left the department and that’s when it happened. Hard to avoid being left alone with him at times but I have talked to him so he is on notice and hopefully it will stop.

@Karl_K, thank you for the advice, sorry you’ve experienced this.

@Dreamer_D, thank you for the support, sorry you have experienced this. Unfortunately my female manager never reported it or even spoke to him about it. So today and I went in and talked to him and told him to stop, that is his warning and next is the union.

Thanks @natasha-cupcake for your support, I’m going to my union before HR, although I realize they would subject themselves to a huge lawsuit if I was fired, I have heard some horror stories about how HR will get rid of people to save face for the company. So I think the union is my best bet if it doesn’t stop. I talked to him today and told him to cut it out so I’m hoping that does it.

@stracci2000, I talked to him today and was nice but firm about it because that’s my comfort-level. My hope is that it stops now. He knows what he is doing, he’s just doing it because he knows he can.

Thanks @canuk-gal for the advice, I spoke with him today and will be reporting him of it happens again.

@Bron357, what you experienced is horrific, I would have had a meltdown too or worse. I talked to him today and basically said what you suggested apart from telling him I would report him next time. I think he knows I am not messing around and he will be reported next time. He’s a creep but he’s not a stupid creep.

 

[stracci2000]

This is great news.
I knew you could handle it.
I find that men become putty in your hands if you reprimand them like naughty children.
Wagging your finger at them really helps, too.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@Daisys and Diamonds, so sorry this happened to you, our company is large and there are hours of training we go through including sexual harassment training. He is aware it’s wrong but is doing it because he can IMO.

Glad you haven’t experienced this @kenny, I didn’t realize how widespread it is until I makes this thread. Sad state of affairs in this day and age.

@Austina, I did tell him today not to touch me anymore, I’m hoping that is it but if not I'm going to the next step, no way is he getting away with this anymore.

@empliau, I'm sorry you’ve experienced this. I found out over the weekend there are three present employees that he has touched. My hope after talking to him today is that he knows someone is on alert and watching and will stop this behavior altogether.

@missy thank you for the helpful information and support, I had not spoken to him about this before today. So now he is on notice and has a warning, next time it's straight to the union.

@lulu_ma, thanks for your support, I spoke with I'm today and it went okay, said what I needed to say and hopefully that takes care of it.

@lavenderdragonfly23, I'm so sorry you’ve experienced this. I am determined to do all I can to make him stop. Thank you for your support.

 

[Bonfire]

Well done! However, (and please don’t take this as criticism) the onus is on him and his handsy behavior, not for you admitting to him that you don’t like to be touched. All hands (and inappropriate comments) are to be kept to one’s self in the workplace PERIOD! I hope he gets that through his Neanderthal skull.

ETA: I’m thoroughly disappointed your former manager never spoke to him on your behalf

 

[lavenderdragonfly23]

I came here this morning just to check in and see how you are doing…. I am SO proud of you!!! I’m sure your insides were shaking for multiple reasons… hopefully you are over the hurdle, he stops, and it’s all down hill from here.

What a relief, I’m so glad you tackled this right away instead of letting it fester. I hope your coworker follows in your footsteps and holds her ground with him as well.

 

[stracci2000]

I used to work in a store where the boss's father used to come up behind me and scare me by blowing in my ear. This guy was in his late 70s and acting like a grade schooler.
The first time he did it, I jumped and he laughed.
The second time, I turned around, pointed my finger in his face and told him in my meanest voice "What is your problem? Do you enjoy this? You better f*cking never do that to me again!"
His eyes got so big! He apologized.
I think they have flashbacks of being yelled at by their mother, so they immediately become contrite.

I found out later that he was doing it to all the women. Looking back, that was definitely harassment.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Well done! However, (and please don’t take this as criticism) the onus is on him and his handsy behavior, not for you admitting to him that you don’t like to be touched. All hands (and inappropriate comments) are to be kept to one’s self in the workplace PERIOD! I hope he gets that through his Neanderthal skull.

ETA: I’m thoroughly disappointed your former manager never spoke to him on your behalf

Oh I totally understand what you’re saying. Talking to him first was for me, not him, because it's such an uncomfortable position for me. I was very surprised she didn't talk to him too, it could have been a simple conversation but I don't think it would have stopped him.

 

[Rfisher]

Something to think about.
If he ever says he wants to talk with you other than day to day duties - in your normal work area or elsewhere -
Request a third party to witness the conversation. If he already doesn’t request that third party - something is up in his mind not above board- And not in your best interest.
JMO with having past HR experience.



I hope it gets better from now on.

ETA
Keep a hard copy of that text with your former manager. It may come in handy some day.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@lavenderdragonfly23 Ahhhh, thank you! I'm still all hyped up from it but yes so glad it's over!

@stracci200, what is it about these grown men who act like grade schoolers?! Well good on you for putting him in his place!

Good advice @Rfisher, I will keep that in mind and take action if it comes to that. Thanks so much!

 

[Eli22]

@YadaYadaYada I’m sorry this is happening to you, and so glad you confronted him. You have received amazing advice/support here, so just wanted to chime in that I am proud of you, and off all the strong women here who have experienced similar.

One thing I do when I want to keep track of events (and time-stamp them) is to email myself a brief summary on the day it occurs. I attach photos of any physical evidence as well (e.g. a screenshot of a text, letter, them looking at my LinkedIn profile, making a friend request on social media, etc). You can email your personal email address from your work address. Use a common subject for all of your entries (e.g. the initials of Mr. Handsy). That way you can search for the complete record and print it out if necessary for law enforcement/court (I have had to do this).

It’s amazing how one’s brain works during stressful times in order to stay sane/calm. When it finally came time for me to print my documents out, it was over 100 pages. I didn’t “feel” it was “that bad” at the time, but was very uncomfortable and that pushed me to document.

Stay strong and take care!

 

[Bonfire]

Oh I totally understand what you’re saying. Talking to him first was for me, not him, because it's such an uncomfortable position for me. I was very surprised she didn't talk to him too, it could have been a simple conversation but I don't think it would have stopped him.

What I meant was, by saying (again I don’t mean to criticize you) “you don’t like to be touched”, he’ll potentially just move on to the next coworker victim. Uninvited and inappropriate workplace touching is the issue, for anyone in your workplace. Hopefully he’s just a dolt and will stop this behavior.

I’m glad you spoke your peace, you empowered yourself.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

What I meant was, by saying (again I don’t mean to criticize you) “you don’t like to be touched”, he’ll potentially just move on to the next coworker victim. Uninvited and inappropriate workplace touching is the issue, for anyone in your workplace. Hopefully he’s just a dolt and will stop this behavior.

I’m glad you spoke your peace, you empowered yourself.

Oh okay, my husband actually suggested that I say “Nobody likes when you put your arm around them or touch them” but at the moment for whatever reason, I didn't say it. I just hope this knocks him off his pedestal and he leaves everyone alone. Any employee who witnesses sexual harassment can report it and I’ll go that route if I see him doing it to the other women.

 

[Calliecake]

I am so flipping proud of you @YadaYadaYada! PLEASE DOCUMENT EVERYTHING, notify HR and also put it in writing to them. Hopefully he will realize he could lose his job if he does this again and stop.

Men act like this because they can still get away with it.

 

[caf]

Sorry I have not responded to everyone yet, we’ve been at a frisbee tournament all day.

I did just want to clarify that although I did tell my female manager about it, I don't think she ever told H.R. So there is no record of me previously reporting that he was touching me.

Saturday we will be working together again and I planned on going in first thing and confronting him. Since I can't react in the moment, I have to do it before he has a chance to touch me. By confront I mean specifically telling him not to put his arm around me or touch me in any way again.

Then if it does happen again I have a date and time of the first incident (yesterday) and a date and time I talked to him (Saturday) and I can bring all that to the union rep.

@YadaYadaYada - actually you gave your workplace “notice” by giving it to your female manager. You don’t need to make sure HR knows. Telling management is normally sufficient.

Proud of you for confronting him directly. Very very hard to do and you did it naturally- in your own way. Now he also has “notice” personally and professionally as your manager.

From - not your lawyer but a lawyer.

 

[Matata]

actually you gave your workplace “notice” by giving it to your female manager. You don’t need to make sure HR knows. Telling management is normally sufficient.

That manager left the organization. Absent feedback from the female manager or evidence that she spoke to the offending manager or to HR, YadaYadaYada should assume that no action was taken. If the female manager had been competent or had cared about the situation, she would have taken some kind of action and provided feedback to YadaYadaYada. Indeed, that is what she should have done.

Telling management is sufficient only if management is not part of the problem and in my 20 yrs of experience in HR, I found management was often part of the problem.

 

[Matata]

Oh okay, my husband actually suggested that I say “Nobody likes when you put your arm around them or touch them” but at the moment for whatever reason, I didn't say it. I just hope this knocks him off his pedestal and he leaves everyone alone. Any employee who witnesses sexual harassment can report it and I’ll go that route if I see him doing it to the other women.

You're wise not to follow your husband's suggestion. You can't speak for anybody but yourself, doing otherwise could have opened up a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

[caf]

That manager left the organization. Absent feedback from the female manager or evidence that she spoke to the offending manager or to HR, YadaYadaYada should assume that no action was taken. If the female manager had been competent or had cared about the situation, she would have taken some kind of action and provided feedback to YadaYadaYada. Indeed, that is what she should have done.

Telling management is sufficient only if management is not part of the problem and in my 20 yrs of experience in HR, I found management was often part of the problem.

I wasn’t talking about “taking action.” I was talking about the concept of putting the company on “notice” should @YadaYadaYada want to take legal action. Giving verbal notice to your manager (or one who has the ability to bind the company as managers do) is sufficient in the US. I don’t know where YadaYadaYada lives. But I do know that telling her manager is telling the company (providing notice) in the US. The fact that the manager left the company has nothing to do with whether the company received actual notice of the harassing behavior. It did.

The fact that the creepy manager, not only has unwelcome contact with YadaYadaYada, but also does so with other females is evidence of a pattern of behavior on his part. Patterns of behavior are powerful evidence in sexual harassment cases (and others), when admissible in court. I will leave it at that.

I’m not debating you @Matata as to whether the company took action. Clearly it didn’t or, if it did, the creepy manager took no heed or doesn’t fear the consequences. Or maybe that is the company culture. Who knows? But @YadaYadaYada wants to stay working there. Because of that, she was brave to have told him “hands off.” I hope her co-workers can muster the courage to do the same. It’s very challenging to confront a creep. Oh and we agree - management is often a problem!

 

[Lookinagain]

@stracci200, what is it about these grown men who act like grade schoolers?! Well good on you for putting him in his place!

I'm not defending this by any means, but I think a 70 year old may still be living in the 60's where women were used to men doing things like blowing in their ears or touching them, not that they liked it, but that they thought they had no choice but to allow it. Theses men haven't gotten the memo, or think it doesn't apply to them. They need to be told that it does, so I love that you shook your finger at him!

That manager left the organization. Absent feedback from the female manager or evidence that she spoke to the offending manager or to HR, YadaYadaYada should assume that no action was taken. If the female manager had been competent or had cared about the situation, she would have taken some kind of action and provided feedback to YadaYadaYada. Indeed, that is what she should have done.

I agree

Giving verbal notice to your manager (or one who has the ability to bind the company as managers do) is sufficient in the US. I don’t know where YadaYadaYada lives. But I do know that telling her manager is telling the company (providing notice) in the US. The fact that the manager left the company has nothing to do with whether the company received actual notice of the harassing behavior. It did.

Technically yes, but how does she prove that she told the manager if there is no record of it, the manager has left the company, and who knows if she will admit that she was told about this and did nothing? That may impact her future prospects in management, since she didn't do the right thing, and it could get around if the local industry isn't large and everyone knows everyone. So I think @YadaYadaYada has to start from scratch, which she has done, by telling him to leave her alone. She needs to document the conversation so that she has a record of this one, and any future conversations with management and/or HR and/or her union.

 

[caf]

I'm not defending this by any means, but I think a 70 year old may still be living in the 60's where women were used to men doing things like blowing in their ears or touching them, not that they liked it, but that they thought they had no choice but to allow it. Theses men haven't gotten the memo, or think it doesn't apply to them. They need to be told that it does, so I love that you shook your finger at him!


I agree


Technically yes, but how does she prove that she told the manager if there is no record of it, the manager has left the company, and who knows if she will admit that she was told about this and did nothing? That may impact her future prospects in management, since she didn't do the right thing, and it could get around if the local industry isn't large and everyone knows everyone. So I think @YadaYadaYada has to start from scratch, which she has done, by telling him to leave her alone. She needs to document the conversation so that she has a record of this one, and any future conversations with management and/or HR and/or her union.

I'm not defending this by any means, but I think a 70 year old may still be living in the 60's where women were used to men doing things like blowing in their ears or touching them, not that they liked it, but that they thought they had no choice but to allow it. Theses men haven't gotten the memo, or think it doesn't apply to them. They need to be told that it does, so I love that you shook your finger at him!


I agree


Technically yes, but how does she prove that she told the manager if there is no record of it, the manager has left the company, and who knows if she will admit that she was told about this and did nothing? That may impact her future prospects in management, since she didn't do the right thing, and it could get around if the local industry isn't large and everyone knows everyone. So I think @YadaYadaYada has to start from scratch, which she has done, by telling him to leave her alone. She needs to document the conversation so that she has a record of this one, and any future conversations with management and/or HR and/or her union.

@Lookinagain - I absolutely agree that @YadaYadaYada starting from scratch was necessary to stop his behavior. Hopefully, her recent conversation prevents a future reoccurrence of his unwanted touching. If it doesn’t, everyone has given her ideas how to escalate her concerns to her union, to management, etc. I also suggest that if their conversation doesn’t stop him, she needs to consider consulting with a or several plaintiff’s employment lawyers.

As to proving, there is direct and circumstantial evidence. The evidence is that @YadaYadaYada tells us she reported it. Is she credible? What’s our experience with her as a truthful employee? Is she? The old manager could corroborate @YadaYadaYada reporting to her (it’s really amazing how many former managers do find religion and tell the truth once they leave a company.) Other employees could corroborate @YadaYadaYada telling the old manager either because they witnessed it or heard @YadaYadaYada ‘s version of it. Maybe the old manager mentioned it to the other employees. Maybe she told her friends? Did she warn the male manager of the report? Additionally, Employees can corroborate their own experience with the male manager. Is @YadaYadaYada ’s version of reporting and events consistent over time? What was her demeanor like after she reported it? Was the old manager a rule follower? Or did she ignore policies and procedures? Why did old manager leave? Did the old manager fail to report to HR or general counsel or management other employees’ reports and concerns of any nature? Or violations of policies and procedures? There are a myriad of ways to provide evidence or “proof” of @YadaYadaYada ’s report or making it more likely than not that she did report. But equally important is - did other managers see or hear the bad behavior? Did the former manager see it? Notice to management can be from sources other than @YadaYadaYada.

Even though I was a civil defense lawyer (I mostly defended lawyers and law firms) my experience was that people, mostly women, who said they were subjected to these kind of unwanted touches - WERE. At least to some degree . Most who said they reported HAD reported to someone in charge. Does this mean the company would believe that she made a report? I don’t know. But I suspect that others in management witnessed his conduct and ignored it or didn’t even recognize it.

But the bottom line is that @YadaYadaYada reported to him that his behavior was unwelcome. Yes, she should keep notes. Yes, she could tell her Union, hr, lawyers, police, the CEO, etc. if he touches her again, she’ll have to decide how far up the chain to take it. I hope he keeps his hands to himself. Sorry my response was long.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@caf thank you for your input and support, it's given me a lot to think about and I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

@Matata, I think at the moment I chose to say “I don't like it” instead of “Nobody likes it” because I wanted a high-impact statement to get the message across loud and clear. In any case I think it was the right call, thanks for your support.

@Lookinagain, I am documenting everything from last Friday on, I do regret not recording dates and incidents prior but there's nothing I can do about it so I'm just going to focus on from here forward.

@Calliecake, thanks for your support. I agree he is doing it because he can and sadly the other women don't seem to think it’s a problem like I do. It doesn't even seem to be that they’re worried about their jobs, it's just the attitude of “Well he’s kind of like a grandfather.” No, just no.

 

[Austina]

Ewwwww, that’s even more gross @YadaYadaYada. If someone’s grandfather was that handsy, wouldn’t they think he was a dirty old man?

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Ewwwww, that’s even more gross @YadaYadaYada. If someone’s grandfather was that handsy, wouldn’t they think he was a dirty old man?

I have stopped trying to understand the logic, I just tell both of them it’s wrong and they need to stand up for themselves. The excuses drive me crazy!