He''s Just Not That Into You? some thoughts...

[CNOS128]

Date: 4/29/2008 7:45:24 PM

I really don''t think that marriage provides a ''secure socially accepted environment in which to raise children.'' You start bringing that up to the PSer whose BF/DH''s parents have been together for 30 or so years and NEVER MARRIED and we''ll see how far you get. Perhaps marriage is a norm in this culture, but I would NOT put it into the words you did.

Eep... not to mention the fact that plenty o'' gay couples adopt and raise kids who turn out to be mighty fine children...and adults...and gay marriage isn''t allowed in the US, nor is it, I guess, widely socially accepted.

 

[excitedmid40sgirl]

Date: 4/29/2008 8:28:00 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 4/29/2008 6:23:15 PM
Author: excitedmid40sgirl

Date: 4/29/2008 12:12:35 PM

Author: FrekeChild
I''m going to say that I wholeheartedly agree with Honey22''s very well said post.
Especially this part:
''Who are you to decide at which point all of us should be getting engaged or married?! What works for you doesn''t necessarily work for other people.''
And this part:
''What do you really want? Do you want to spend your life with this man, or have a shiny ring? If he is worth it, you would wait, I am sure if he felt you were worth it, he would wait for you. It sounds like all you want is to get married, and you will happily insert any willing man into the equation in order to get what you want.''

You know, my last 2 exes wanted to marry me, but I didn''t want to marry them. To me, I didn''t just want to get married (I very easily could have!) I wanted to find THAT guy. The one who would make me feel like I was complete. Luckily I found that guy, and I''m willing to wait however long it takes him to propose-if he doesn''t ever, then I''m going to have a party celebrating our lives together anyway. After all, it''s just a piece of paper and some tax breaks.
And I think that taking comprehensive exams and being well on our way to being financially secure are pretty dang good reasons to wait.

Just a piece of paper and some tax breaks -- yikes!! I''m new here, and I respect everyone''s different opinions on relationships, timing, individual styles, etc. But wow -- and maybe it''s just me -- I don''t think of marriage as ''just a piece of paper and some tax breaks.'' I''m Catholic (a convert), and I think of marriage as a sacrament. Yes, of course we can have a loving and permanent bond to someone we''re not legally married to. But considering it in a spiritual/religious sense (which everyone doesn''t), to me it''s a promise before God/Providence/Higher Power that you will be true to your partner, loving him with everything you''ve got, until one of you dies.

Perhaps I should elaborate. I am the daughter of a divorce attorney. I have worked in his office. I have seen more wreckage of relationships in that short time frame than ANYONE else in my age range.
I am a former Catholic, current non-religious type (you can call me agnostic if you''d like), and a very logical wanna-be micro social scientist. I should mention that BF is a macro social science statistician also non-religious.
To those who are non-religious and especially people like myself, marriage is lacking in the religious part and possibly the spiritual part.

Let me tell you something, when the spiritual/religious side of marriage lets you down, your partner no longer wants to be with you, and that sacrament is already broken, YES it is just a piece of paper and some tax breaks. Also legal rights. Just ask any gay couple that wants to get married-all they get to have is the spiritual/religious side of things-they want the legal rights that come with it.

I''ve done too much studying in the subject, been exposed to too many failed relationships (mostly marital) and I''m entirely too logical and realistic to think that just a spiritual bond will keep two people together. Or, heck, even a legal bond.
Marriage takes commitment, communication and compromise. It''s about the relationship between the two people, and if you''re religious-you can add your god in there too.

When the rest of the world views it, they look at it legally, statistically (who doesn''t keep tabs on the divorce rate anymore-media totally inflates it, and truly the Census has no way of really measuring it) and financially, they don''t care about the religious aspect of things, so to THEM, your marriage is just that, two people tied together by a piece of paper, that just happens to give them tax breaks.

By the way, my father, the divorce attorney, has been divorced and is an extremely devout Catholic too. And a liberal Democrat to boot.

Part of what we''re saying is the same thing...marriage DOES take commitment, communication and compromise. I''ve been married, and the one I loved died. I believe marriage to "the right person" or "a right person" is one of the best things in life. I''m 45 years old and come from a family in which I''m the only member never divorced. I''m not naive enough to think that "just a spiritual bond or even a legal bond" will keep two people together. Far from it! It takes will, and it takes the willingness to put your relationship above everything else.

Interesting fact: In the Catholic Church, the sacrament of marriage is the ONLY sacrament that the two partners confer on each other...it''s not "pronounced" by a priest. So you are absolutely right -- it''s up to all of us here, and our partners, to want to make it work.

I''ll bet it can be depressing working in a divorce lawyer''s office (even if he''s your dad that loves you). Seeing and hearing and witnessing the things that happen in that environment, it''s probably hard for some people to believe that enduring love often expresses itself in the form of legal and sacramental marriage. But it does. Why would anybody, unless they believed a loving, permanent commitment was at least possible and desirable, be on this site? Or identify themselves as a "lady in waiting?" Waiting for what....a 50 percent chance that their marriage might work?! Or awaiting concrete words and a symbol -- a ring -- from a partner who wants to spend the rest of his life with you, and the "official" (not the best word, I know) or "demarcated" beginning of an adventure just as great as going to the moon? Why would anybody be on this site if they truly wanted no such demarcating words or symbol, and thought they didn''t need it?

Don''t mean to sound preachy or overly religious. I just believe in marriage. And as I said, I don''t speak from lack of experience. My husband and I stuck together through thick and thin, and it wasn''t easy (he had four brain surgeries during our 14-year marriage). But it was beautiful, fun, funny, sad, hard, light, easy, growth-inducing and 100 other fabulous adjectives they have in Webster''s.

It''s getting late...I''ll get off my soapbox!!

Thanks for listening.

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 4/29/2008 2:26:26 PM
Author: Laila619

That's all fine and good, but what about if a woman wants kids? Women aren't fertile forever, and most women don't want to have kids out of wedlock. Marriage provides a secure, socially accepted environment in which to raise children. That's why it's more than just a piece of paper.

Well, marriage is also an important religious ceremony, and a spiritual lode stone...so, no Laila is not being silly in wanting to experience love within marriage.

I'm going to be a Devil's advocate here, and say that Laila is inadvertently raising a couple of important points here, not just about fertility management but about the emotional experience of being a woman in love. Until fairly recently, it was pretty much socially accepted that women would not want to experience full sexual love without being married. It 'made an honest woman' etc etc.

I have to say that although we never talk about it, this is still pretty important. And we NEVER talk about it!!
Although (on a purely physical level alone) God knows how many of us have seen our lives flash before our eyes when we think we have an unplanned pregnancy as a single woman?!!

Yet this pregnancy risk and emotional risk are risks that women are now expected to take, without begrudgement or resentment, without a slightest tinge of confusion or uncertainty!

The social expectation of risking pregnancy as a single woman - and then magically settling into happy, married, respectable life with legitimate kids - is a social hypocrisy I'll never really understand.

If marriage is important, why do sexually active men delay so long? Of course, lots of women choose to relate to men they are not really interested in long term, but generally 'accidents' tend to happen in long term and particularly live in relationships.

Women who actively choose not to marry are shouldering their own risks, and must face their choices head on. But other women are more circumspect...perhaps they've already had a pregnancy scare...or a really bad break up...

And why should women risk abortion or the life of a single mother simply because the social norms insist she must?

Six year engagements might be great when you're 20 and worried about personal growth and future changes in preferred lifestyle, but once you're all grown up (I'm talking stability here, not necessarily an age) and you've worked out where babies come from, surely the onus is on all of us to be as responsible, and as positive about each other, as possible?

Gawd, I'm getting a bit Catholic here. I'm just saying that even at 26, perhaps she's wishing she hadn't gotten totally involved with this guy. Although, in the current social environment, how can she get along otherwise?

But back to the OP, if her guy is talkin' 40 years, maybe she's just angsting? After all, we've all angsted in love!

 

[FrekeChild]

I believe in marriage too. Don''t get me wrong on that. Otherwise I wouldn''t be a LIW, which I find to be funny, because in a lot of ways I feel like I belong more in the BWW, even though I''m not engaged yet, I know it''s happening and I know that we''ll spend the rest of our lives together. And that a wedding will take place in about 3 years. Maybe sooner.

Honestly it was one of the worst and one of the best thing to do-working in my dad''s office, and even though he is my dad outside of that place, he was not really my dad inside. He was just one of 10 attorneys I was working for. But as he would say, it''s hard to work in a divorce office, because people are ALWAYS at their worst when they come see you. I''ve had women and men sobbing, screaming and plotting against their husbands and wives in front of me, I''ve seen children crying for the other parent-the one who didn''t get custody, I''ve seen people fighting over money, houses, finances, children, pets, cars and other stuff, and I''ve seen them fighting over NOT wanting those things too. You have never seen a more heartbreaking thing than having two parents fight over NOT WANTING a child.

And yet, I still believe in marriage. I believe in marriage to him-he who has a defective heart valve that was replaced once already and will probably have to be replaced at least 5 more times-if we are lucky.

"Well, marriage is also an important religious ceremony, and a spiritual lode stone...so, no Laila is not being silly in wanting to experience love within marriage."

I don''t think anyone said anything about her being deprived of love? I don''t think anyone said anything about anyone being deprived of love...

Lara, I''m not sure if you actually wanted anyone to answer your questions or if you were just raising them as food for thought. Or some other reason?

I''m a bit lost...

 

[miraclesrule]

It''s interesting. When I was sitting in court to try to get my divorce papers approved, I had to sit in there for the entire afternoon because I had to get my file sent back up to address the judge. In the meantime, I was sitting there listening to these god awful cases where the parents were still feuding after 11 years over their son. It was surreal.

The whole time I was sitting in there, I kept thinking...this is what they should make engaged couples sit through for a day. It''s like a tough love approach of the damage that bitter divorced people can do to each other and especially to their kids by their endless fighting and game playing. I swear at one point, I was thinking, "Jeez people, it''s like you don''t really want to be divorced or you wouldn''t keep this up just so you could keep seeing each other". But for the most part, one of the spouses had moved on and remarried and it was clear that the other spouse was hell bent on making the other spouse pay in time, emotion, money, etc. It was truly sad.

All I could think of was how traumatized the whole ordeal was for the kids. Adults can be really childish.

 

[claireabelle]

Date: 4/29/2008 9:26:54 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
The bottom line is that marriage is about more than just legally tying yourself to another person. For many, it''s about being able to start your life together--buying a house together, having a family together. Should a woman, especially a woman who wants to have children in the next couple of years, put her life on hold while a man figures out if he wants to marry her? Absolutely not.

My point is that if a woman is truly at the end of her rope and is no longer happy in the relationship, leaving is the ONLY way she can change her OWN situation. And if a woman isn''t ready to leave, she must still be getting something out of the relationship.


So yes, he might not be that into you, or he might have deep-seeded fears, or the timing might be off, but regardless of the reason a woman should be able to dictate her own path. After all, it''s OUR life.[/quote]

A couple of things... I completely agree that if someone is having doubts - then maybe it is a sign that it''s not right. I have seen many relationships struggle for years trying to hold onto something that just isn''t fulfilling the needs for each person. If this is the case - it is best to move on and find someone who really fits...

HOWEVER - if you feel that he''s right for you - I wouldn''t dismiss him just because he doesn''t fit a schedule.

And just one more comment: Do you need to be married to start a life together? My BF and I have lived overseas together and have owned our own apartment for 2 years... we have pets, friends, a good social life, a good family relationship.... I would call the last 6 years ''our life together'' ...it started long ago and will only continue when we get married next year.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 4/30/2008 2:00:40 AM
Author: miraclesrule
It's interesting. When I was sitting in court to try to get my divorce papers approved, I had to sit in there for the entire afternoon because I had to get my file sent back up to address the judge. In the meantime, I was sitting there listening to these god awful cases where the parents were still feuding after 11 years over their son. It was surreal.

The whole time I was sitting in there, I kept thinking...this is what they should make engaged couples sit through for a day. It's like a tough love approach of the damage that bitter divorced people can do to each other and especially to their kids by their endless fighting and game playing. I swear at one point, I was thinking, 'Jeez people, it's like you don't really want to be divorced or you wouldn't keep this up just so you could keep seeing each other'. But for the most part, one of the spouses had moved on and remarried and it was clear that the other spouse was hell bent on making the other spouse pay in time, emotion, money, etc. It was truly sad.

All I could think of was how traumatized the whole ordeal was for the kids. Adults can be really childish.

Exactly miracles. They have no idea the damage they are doing to themselves and to their children. They are bitter bitter bitter and they want their ex to PAY. Well, most of the time. Sometimes they can be nice to each other-but that's the exception-hardly the rule. We'll just say-there is a reason attorneys are involved.

I really don't know how my dad has done it for so long--we're talking more than 40 years. And he's seen crazy shiz. Like soap opera crazy. Sex addict crazy. International kidnapping crazy.

He should write for the soaps. But no, if he were going to pick another career it'd be teaching religion and law at a Catholic University.

ETA: Well said Claire!

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 4/30/2008 1:35:07 AM
Author: FrekeChild
I believe in marriage too. Don't get me wrong on that. Otherwise I wouldn't be a LIW, which I find to be funny, because in a lot of ways I feel like I belong more in the BWW, even though I'm not engaged yet, I know it's happening and I know that we'll spend the rest of our lives together. And that a wedding will take place in about 3 years. Maybe sooner.


Honestly it was one of the worst and one of the best thing to do-working in my dad's office, and even though he is my dad outside of that place, he was not really my dad inside. He was just one of 10 attorneys I was working for. But as he would say, it's hard to work in a divorce office, because people are ALWAYS at their worst when they come see you. I've had women and men sobbing, screaming and plotting against their husbands and wives in front of me, I've seen children crying for the other parent-the one who didn't get custody, I've seen people fighting over money, houses, finances, children, pets, cars and other stuff, and I've seen them fighting over NOT wanting those things too. You have never seen a more heartbreaking thing than having two parents fight over NOT WANTING a child.


And yet, I still believe in marriage. I believe in marriage to him-he who has a defective heart valve that was replaced once already and will probably have to be replaced at least 5 more times-if we are lucky.


'Well, marriage is also an important religious ceremony, and a spiritual lode stone...so, no Laila is not being silly in wanting to experience love within marriage.'


I don't think anyone said anything about her being deprived of love? I don't think anyone said anything about anyone being deprived of love...


Lara, I'm not sure if you actually wanted anyone to answer your questions or if you were just raising them as food for thought. Or some other reason?


I'm a bit lost...

Hi there Freke

well, I don't think any of the issues that we are discussing are easily solved...they are more philosophical positions, aren't they? Marriage and love is definitely anything but one size fits all! But yeah, as I mentioned at the end of my post, perhaps the poor OP is just angsting about the love of her life?! Hey, we've all done it (well, most of us, anyway).

actually, I'm going to edit to clarify: I guess I DO suppose that the OP is being deprived of a kind of love...the married kind of love that she thinks she wants/needs. So, yes, there is a certain kind of deprivation being experienced here...(even if the desire is foolish, because the man is unsuitable)...otherwise, why would she feel unfulfilled as she currently is?

 

[FrekeChild]

"Hi there Freke

well, I don''t think any of the issues that we are discussing are easily solved...they are more philosophical positions, aren''t they? Marriage and love is definitely anything but one size fits all! But yeah, as I mentioned at the end of my post, perhaps the poor OP is just angsting about the love of her life?! Hey, we''ve all done it (well, most of us, anyway).

actually, I''m going to edit to clarify: I guess I DO suppose that the OP is being deprived of a kind of love...the married kind of love that she thinks she wants/needs. So, yes, there is a certain kind of deprivation being experienced here...(even if the desire is foolish, because the man is unsuitable)...otherwise, why would she feel unfulfilled as she currently is?"

They are very philosophical. Marriage is what you make it, and probably can''t be defined, because it''s different in a case by case basis. But I suppose that''s true with everything!

(note: BF just covered my face in kisses-he can be so cute...)

I think I''m going to have to sleep on this. I hope the OP hasn''t been scared off...

Sidenote: I always think of Lara Croft when I see your name.

 

[honey22]

Date: 4/29/2008 2:15:25 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 4/29/2008 12:58:51 PM
Author: rockzilla
Laila-

Sorry if you've posted this and I've missed it, but how old are you? You said he is 31...are you around the same age? Because if you are more than a few years younger (or older!) it may be affecting how he thinks about this..

Hi, I'm 26. I do feel my boyfriend is the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, the man I want to father my children. HOWEVER, his decision to wait should NOT take priority over my decision to get married and have kids. Just like none of you should have to sacrifice your desire to get engaged and start planning the rest of your life for any man. If my boyfriend and I have different timing, then I will move on for one simple reason: I want kids and I am not willing to wait in uncertainty forever. My boyfriend told me just last week that he sees us together for the next 40 years, married with kids. But he did not address a timeline, and like I said I won't be around forever. Part of it is a self-respect issue IMO.

I personally don't think the decision to get engaged should take forever (and many of my friends and family agree). Either you want to or you don't. Gentlemen know that they should not string a lady on. They should make their intentions clear and not make a lady wait for something she wants so much. It's important for women to have security, especially when that biological clock is ticking!

I mean no offense to anyone, I'm just trying to give a different point of view. I feel sad for us when I read some of the extremely anxious, angst-filled posts.

Oh, and someone asked if my boyfriend knows of my 18 month deadline? No, he doesn't. It's an internal deadline. I don't believe in ultimatums etc. because like I said, I believe men in love just propose on their own without any prodding necessary.

Are you saying that my parter is not a gentleman?!

He has always made his intentions clear!

I also think that's in inexperienced and childish view of realtionships - 'either you do or you don't want to get married'. There is so much more to a relationship and you are oversimplyfing things.

 

[honey22]

Date: 4/29/2008 2:26:26 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 4/29/2008 12:12:35 PM
Author: FrekeChild
I'm going to say that I wholeheartedly agree with Honey22's very well said post.

Especially this part:
'Who are you to decide at which point all of us should be getting engaged or married?! What works for you doesn't necessarily work for other people.'

And this part:
'What do you really want? Do you want to spend your life with this man, or have a shiny ring? If he is worth it, you would wait, I am sure if he felt you were worth it, he would wait for you. It sounds like all you want is to get married, and you will happily insert any willing man into the equation in order to get what you want.'

You know, my last 2 exes wanted to marry me, but I didn't want to marry them. To me, I didn't just want to get married (I very easily could have!) I wanted to find THAT guy. The one who would make me feel like I was complete. Luckily I found that guy, and I'm willing to wait however long it takes him to propose-if he doesn't ever, then I'm going to have a party celebrating our lives together anyway. After all, it's just a piece of paper and some tax breaks.

And I think that taking comprehensive exams and being well on our way to being financially secure are pretty dang good reasons to wait.

That's all fine and good, but what about if a woman wants kids? Women aren't fertile forever, and most women don't want to have kids out of wedlock. Marriage provides a secure, socially accepted environment in which to raise children. That's why it's more than just a piece of paper.

To say this as a blanket statement is ridiculous. I have seen some terrible marriages, with poor children living in homes with parents fighting like cats and dogs, or in abusive families, just because you have a piece of paper doesn't mean you will provide the right environment to raise children. I can say with 100% confidence that a child would be better off in my home, with me and my BF living in sin and all, than in some of the marriages I have seen other couples in. My partner and I look after my friends kids regularly now to give her a break from being a single Mum. She got the ring, and the piece of paper. She now has the divorce papers to go with it. That piece of paper didn't stop the jerk taking off without looking after his kids financially. That piece of paper didn't provide a stable or secure home. She feels it's fantastic for her kids to stay at our place, iin a home with two adults that love and respect each other, and to see what a healthy relationship and a positive male role model is all about. 12 years being in a relationship filled with love and respect made us the couple we are today. Walking down the isle with someone doesn't give you that on the spot.

 

[Laila619]

Date: 4/30/2008 2:31:22 AM
Author: LaraOnline

I'm going to edit to clarify: I guess I DO suppose that the OP is being deprived of a kind of love...the married kind of love that she thinks she wants/needs. So, yes, there is a certain kind of deprivation being experienced here...(even if the desire is foolish, because the man is unsuitable)...otherwise, why would she feel unfulfilled as she currently is?

Yes, LaraOnline. That's correct. As wonderful as it is dating my dear boyfriend, is it so bad that I am impatient to become his wife, to feel that even deeper, greater love and type of commitment between two people? I also want to live with him so that we can be together every day, and I can't/won't do that until we're married.

Anyway, I don't want to imply that anyone's boyfriend is Just Not That Into her. I just wanted to say that the book makes some sense, it's written by a happily married MALE who understands how men work. He feels that men in love have no trouble proposing, and they don't have excuses as to why they aren't. The actual chapter of the book says "He's Just Not That Into You if He's Not Marrying You." I just wanted to post here to see what people thought about that.

I know my boyfriend loves me (just as I'm sure everyone's SO here loves her) but I want him to WANT to take me off the market, propose, and marry me! No excuses or delays.

New England Lady, your posts are fabulous by the way!!

 

[Bia]

He probably will want to take you off the market, or maybe he does now. Just give him a fighting chance because it really has not been that long. And, again IMO, don''t be secretive about your intentions because he may have no idea what you''re thinking and to lose you as a result, that''s very sad for two people in love.

Good luck!

 

[excitedmid40sgirl]

Re: The whole time I was sitting in there, I kept thinking...this is what they should make engaged couples sit through for a day.

Miraclesrule, you got it!

 

[janinegirly]

What an interesting (and feisty) thread!
I''ve got some experience with this too...dated 3yrs before proposal and was in my 30''s when we started dating. After 2 yrs, I was ready--he wasn''t quite. Many conversations, angst on my part, plus pressure from my friends (reminding me "he''s just not into you") made the 1yr difference in timelnes seem so much worse. In the end it all worked out as it was meant to be--we were married close to our 4 yr anniversary and now I''m preggers and expecting on our 1st wedding anniversary. Had I know it would turn out this way, I wouldn''t have freaked out so much along the way (which probably dragged things out, but can you blame a girl?).

Anyway, I don''t have any magical insight, but it is a tough thing to balance. Balancing your own pride and need for respect vs. the guy''s need to feel his needs are also respected and he is not being forced. Some would say, "If he loves you, he should propose now!". But when you think about it, no 2 adults are built exactly the same and if he''s got it figured out in his head to take a few months longer, how can you force it? Where it''s soo tough, is not actually KNOWING that at the time (what his true timeline is...often guys just say....''don''t worry, it''ll happen soon''). In the end you have to go with your gut and you kind of know when it''s too late, and resentment has set in. On the other hand, sometimes you can be too impatient and delay something that was on its way to turning out just as you want. Communication and honesty is what it comes down to, and also being honest with yourself about at what point you WILL walk.

Laila~ you have such a firm view on this...have you expressed it all to your bf? What does he say??

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Thanks, Laila, I wish there was a cut and dry way to deal with the frustrations of being a LIW, but it's just different for each person. I know that in my case we had discussed marriage extensively, I gave him plenty of time and he just wasn't ready. You know that saying "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"?That was my life, haha! I knew what I needed to do for myself.

I've spoken with several men who have been on the other side of limbo including a man whose wife wrote a book about men with cold feet. I briefly thought about writing a book myself after I left D and had several interviews with men who had cold feet. Again, these were not men who fully intended to marry their girlfriends, even if their timelines were a little off. These were men who were not sure about marriage--who had fears or had been scarred by previous marriages. Though I dropped the book idea, I've continued relatoinships with some of these couples because I became emotionally invested in them One couple are now good friends of ours and ended up getting married and are doing really well (dated 9 years, married 6 months). One couple got married and are already in the process of divorcing after only a year and a half (dated 7 years). One couple went on to get married, but started couples therapy soon after marriage because he still had some commitment fears--they are doing very well now (dated 6 years, married 2). One couple went on to get married despite her moving in and out about 6 times over four years--he finally decided to get married last year and they are expecting a baby (dated 8 years, married 1). One couple is STILL going back and forth--she can't let go and he cant propose (dating 4 years). One couple broke up--she left after 6 years and is now engaged to another man after 8 months of dating. One couiple broke up a week before the wedding--she realized that he still had some commitment fears and simply couldn't move forward with the wedding. She is doing well, though still healing after 2 years and he has casually dated other women, no plans to propose. The last couple is engaged, but he has called off the wedding twice and it has been very tumultuous (dating 5 years).

My point is that couples handle these situations differently--if nothing else, the whole process of going through it myself and talking to dozens of men and women in the same situation made me realize two things: 1.) If marriage is important, being able to have open conversations about it is critical. If you are getting a lot of pushback on the marriage issue, then it is time to think about what is best for YOU. and 2.) Having a ring on your finger does NOT make issues go away. If a man is apprehensive about marriage, it needs to be taken care of beforehand--in every case where the man did not get over his issues before the wedding, it caused major problems in the relationship which led to the wedding being called off, intense marriage counseling or even divorce.

You'll also notice that each couple was together for 5+ years--and more than half of those couples are in their 30's or 40's. It takes a lot of time to get through these issues--while I respect that a year and a half is your breaking point, if this relationships is important to you and you do want to marry him, but he has some fears, understand that it might take longer to work through them. As I've pointed out a bunch of times, communication about marriage is critical--it isn't fair to walk away from the relationsihp without having MULTIPLE calm, healthy conversations about marriage.

 

[janinegirly]

NewEngland (Nicole),

You should still write that book!! You''ve got the case studies all ready! I wonder if you predicted how each couple would turn out or if you were surprised. How about your own experience post wedding? Boy, thinking back to 2 years ago--what a bumpy few months that was!

 

[FrekeChild]

Very nice post NEL!!!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Haha, my friend and I still meet (the one who's happily married--he proposed a week after she said she was leaving) to talk about the book. Some of them turned out exactly as we expected--the women were too dependent and ignored huge red flags. Some turned out COMPLETELY differently than we expected, though.

The issue is that now that both of us are on the OTHER side and are happy, married, relaxed and just enjoying life without any drama, it's too difficult to think about rehashing that whole period of being in limbo--the stress, the self-doubt, wondering "when", feeling not good enough despite knowing it's not YOU, blah! We're glad to have it behind us and so are our finally-warm-footed husbands, haha. Dan and I were laughing about how long ago it seems now and we agreed that we wouldn't go back to those days if somebody paid us a million bucks. Janine, you were there in the thicke of it, I could easily say that the six months before I finally left were the worst of our relationship! I'm just thankful we are where we are now! And even if my firend and I never write our book, we developed a lot of good friendships!

 

[sweetjettagirl04]

Date: 4/29/2008 2:15:25 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 4/29/2008 12:58:51 PM
Author: rockzilla
Laila-

Sorry if you've posted this and I've missed it, but how old are you? You said he is 31...are you around the same age? Because if you are more than a few years younger (or older!) it may be affecting how he thinks about this..

Hi, I'm 26. I do feel my boyfriend is the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, the man I want to father my children. HOWEVER, his decision to wait should NOT take priority over my decision to get married and have kids. Just like none of you should have to sacrifice your desire to get engaged and start planning the rest of your life for any man. If my boyfriend and I have different timing, then I will move on for one simple reason: I want kids and I am not willing to wait in uncertainty forever. My boyfriend told me just last week that he sees us together for the next 40 years, married with kids. But he did not address a timeline, and like I said I won't be around forever. Part of it is a self-respect issue IMO.

I personally don't think the decision to get engaged should take forever (and many of my friends and family agree). Either you want to or you don't. Gentlemen know that they should not string a lady on. They should make their intentions clear and not make a lady wait for something she wants so much. It's important for women to have security, especially when that biological clock is ticking!

I mean no offense to anyone, I'm just trying to give a different point of view. I feel sad for us when I read some of the extremely anxious, angst-filled posts.

Oh, and someone asked if my boyfriend knows of my 18 month deadline? No, he doesn't. It's an internal deadline. I don't believe in ultimatums etc. because like I said, I believe men in love just propose on their own without any prodding necessary.

This is what I don't understand. In a sense, you're keeping yourself in a relationship with your own expiration date - what happens when that date passes? Are you just going to up and leave? Throw away what you've built over the course of your relationship because he hasn't asked you to marry him yet? What happens if you do leave, and you find out you're miserable without him? It's not that easy. And, what happens if the next guy you meet doesn't propose within, say, that 18 mos? You'll wind up in the same place.

There is no "prodding" a guy into marrying you. It's a HUGE deal for them - well, most, anyways - and they like things to be just right when the time comes. You need to express your desire to be married, and see if he reciprocates. Maybe once you talk to him about your future, you'll see if he's that into you.

You'll never get anywhere in a relationship if you don't talk about your future dreams and goals - not just in a broad scope, but specific timelines of when you two may want to marry. The world doesn't just revolve around what one person wants, especially if you want to share that world with someone else.

 

[sweetjettagirl04]

Date: 4/30/2008 12:51:53 PM
Author: sweetjettagirl04

Date: 4/29/2008 2:15:25 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 4/29/2008 12:58:51 PM
Author: rockzilla
Laila-

Sorry if you''ve posted this and I''ve missed it, but how old are you? You said he is 31...are you around the same age? Because if you are more than a few years younger (or older!) it may be affecting how he thinks about this..

Hi, I''m 26. I do feel my boyfriend is the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, the man I want to father my children. HOWEVER, his decision to wait should NOT take priority over my decision to get married and have kids. Just like none of you should have to sacrifice your desire to get engaged and start planning the rest of your life for any man. If my boyfriend and I have different timing, then I will move on for one simple reason: I want kids and I am not willing to wait in uncertainty forever. My boyfriend told me just last week that he sees us together for the next 40 years, married with kids. But he did not address a timeline, and like I said I won''t be around forever. Part of it is a self-respect issue IMO.

I personally don''t think the decision to get engaged should take forever (and many of my friends and family agree). Either you want to or you don''t. Gentlemen know that they should not string a lady on. They should make their intentions clear and not make a lady wait for something she wants so much. It''s important for women to have security, especially when that biological clock is ticking!

I mean no offense to anyone, I''m just trying to give a different point of view. I feel sad for us when I read some of the extremely anxious, angst-filled posts.

Oh, and someone asked if my boyfriend knows of my 18 month deadline? No, he doesn''t. It''s an internal deadline. I don''t believe in ultimatums etc. because like I said, I believe men in love just propose on their own without any prodding necessary.

This is what I don''t understand. In a sense, you''re keeping yourself in a relationship with your own expiration date - what happens when that date passes? Are you just going to up and leave? Throw away what you''ve built over the course of your relationship because he hasn''t asked you to marry him yet? What happens if you do leave, and you find out you''re miserable without him? It''s not that easy. And, what happens if the next guy you meet doesn''t propose within, say, that 18 mos? You''ll wind up in the same place.

There is no ''prodding'' a guy into marrying you. It''s a HUGE deal for them - well, most, anyways - and they like things to be just right when the time comes. You need to express your desire to be married, and see if he reciprocates. Maybe once you talk to him about your future, you''ll see if he''s that into you.

You''ll never get anywhere in a relationship if you don''t talk about your future dreams and goals - not just in a broad scope, but specific timelines of when you two may want to marry. The world doesn''t just revolve around what one person wants, especially if you want to share that world with someone else.

Let me clarify a little bit - having an internal deadline (like some others have had) is not necessarily a bad thing. But, to me, there has to be a good reason, like I have seen in the past. Many have had deadlines, and are willing to act on them, however, they have expressed their desires and wants to their partner but to no avail. I applaud someone for not hanging around forever, and taking their lives into their own hands, but if your partner doesn''t know what you want, it''s silly, IMHO.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 4/30/2008 12:51:53 PM
Author: sweetjettagirl04

Date: 4/29/2008 2:15:25 PM

Author: Laila619

Date: 4/29/2008 12:58:51 PM
Author: rockzilla
Laila-

Sorry if you''ve posted this and I''ve missed it, but how old are you? You said he is 31...are you around the same age? Because if you are more than a few years younger (or older!) it may be affecting how he thinks about this..

Hi, I''m 26. I do feel my boyfriend is the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, the man I want to father my children. HOWEVER, his decision to wait should NOT take priority over my decision to get married and have kids. Just like none of you should have to sacrifice your desire to get engaged and start planning the rest of your life for any man. If my boyfriend and I have different timing, then I will move on for one simple reason: I want kids and I am not willing to wait in uncertainty forever. My boyfriend told me just last week that he sees us together for the next 40 years, married with kids. But he did not address a timeline, and like I said I won''t be around forever. Part of it is a self-respect issue IMO.


I personally don''t think the decision to get engaged should take forever (and many of my friends and family agree). Either you want to or you don''t. Gentlemen know that they should not string a lady on. They should make their intentions clear and not make a lady wait for something she wants so much. It''s important for women to have security, especially when that biological clock is ticking!


I mean no offense to anyone, I''m just trying to give a different point of view. I feel sad for us when I read some of the extremely anxious, angst-filled posts.

Oh, and someone asked if my boyfriend knows of my 18 month deadline? No, he doesn''t. It''s an internal deadline. I don''t believe in ultimatums etc. because like I said, I believe men in love just propose on their own without any prodding necessary.

This is what I don''t understand. In a sense, you''re keeping yourself in a relationship with your own expiration date - what happens when that date passes? Are you just going to up and leave? Throw away what you''ve built over the course of your relationship because he hasn''t asked you to marry him yet? What happens if you do leave, and you find out you''re miserable without him? It''s not that easy. And, what happens if the next guy you meet doesn''t propose within, say, that 18 mos? You''ll wind up in the same place.

There is no ''prodding'' a guy into marrying you. It''s a HUGE deal for them - well, most, anyways - and they like things to be just right when the time comes. You need to express your desire to be married, and see if he reciprocates. Maybe once you talk to him about your future, you''ll see if he''s that into you.

You''ll never get anywhere in a relationship if you don''t talk about your future dreams and goals - not just in a broad scope, but specific timelines of when you two may want to marry. The world doesn''t just revolve around what one person wants, especially if you want to share that world with someone else.

Brava!!!

Nicely said SJG!!! I really think that this internal cut off date or deadline is kind of immature. I don''t mean any offense by that, but if you aren''t going to talk to him about marriage beforehand, and mention that this is something you really really want, then you don''t have a partnership and it''s probably not going to end in marriage. As I was saying earlier-marriage is communication, compromise and commitment. From what I can tell you don''t have any of those: You won''t talk to him about it-lacking in communication, you won''t find out even if he does want to marry you because you aren''t talking to him about it, so you can''t find out if there is a 18 months and one day compromise to be had, and with this 18 month cut off date- there isn''t commitment there either, I could never ever drop my BF after a certain date because he hasn''t proposed -IF I haven''t talked to him about it.

My $.02

 

[janinegirly]

There are scenarios where an internal timeline is useful. For example when there have been numerous talks and the couple agrees things are moving forward "soon". Months pass, more conversations, More months, another conversation--always ending positively. Next thing you know it''s a year. At some point the girl needs to set limits, if not for him (since this seems to lead to bad reactions!) at least for herself...since ultimately, everyone needs to look out for themselves and not get lost in the waiting/relationship.

Each case is different so there is no hardline rule of do''s and dont''s to be honest.

 

[mimzy]

Laila, i think that you have to decide what is more important to you (although it seems like you already have?):

-staying in a relationship with a man you love and claim you are committed to and that treats you like a princess
or
-holding out for a relationship where the man is eager to rush into marriage (which when you get to the bottom on it, being eager to rush into marriage is really an arbitrary trait in a man.)

despite what it may seem like, it doesn''t mean that a man loves you less than another man loves his girlfriend because the other man proposed sooner. is it possible that your BF isn''t interested in marrying you? sure. but that''s something you should find out before you think about leaving.

commitment doesn''t start with engagement. it starts way before that, when you decide that you want to marry him (which is sounds like you have). you are two separate people and you need to accept differences between you and him. if you aren''t willing or can''t do that, then yes you should leave. if your happiness in the relationship is dependent on his eagerness for marriage, then you will just be miserable and should find someone who will make you happy in that regard.

whichever you choose, it''s your prerogative.

i''m all about respecting yourself and staying true to your goals. but if your dream (because it isn''t a goal as it has nothing to do with you) of having a man be falling all over himself to marry you asap is more important than your current relationship, then i would just book it out of there now, because this clearly isn''t a man that you would sacrifice for. most of the ladies on the LIW list wouldn''t dream of leaving their boyfriends over a delayed proposal that was never talked about to begin with. i know that some women have a tendency to say "this is IT" about every relationship they enter into past a certain age, but have you considered that maybe YOU just aren''t that into HIM?


(disclaimer: i DON"T think this applies to women who have waited years and years for a promised proposal that never comes)

 

[gwendolyn]

I find your responses very interesting. I always think about my friend and his girlfriend, who have been together 7 years and 3 months when this topic comes up. They''ve been talking about marriage since before their one-year anniversary (or rather she''s been talking, he mostly grunts). He says he wants to get married "eventually." He says, when he does get married, it will be to his current girlfriend. When asked what stands between him now and him when he''s ready for marriage, his answer is "time" (I know this because I asked him myself a couple of weeks ago).

She''ll be 31 in August. She has always wanted to be a mother. Now she''s saying maybe it''s not God''s plan for her to have her own kids because her life with him isn''t turning out to be what she wanted. It seems she''s decided to stay and wait for him, but I honestly can''t say I think that''s the best thing for her, even though he says he wants to marry her "eventually." That''s why I tend to not endorse or reject the idea of timelines, because life is sometimes too complicated for them.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 4/30/2008 2:35:11 PM
Author: gwendolyn
I find your responses very interesting. I always think about my friend and his girlfriend, who have been together 7 years and 3 months when this topic comes up. They've been talking about marriage since before their one-year anniversary (or rather she's been talking, he mostly grunts). He says he wants to get married 'eventually.' He says, when he does get married, it will be to his current girlfriend. When asked what stands between him now and him when he's ready for marriage, his answer is 'time' (I know this because I asked him myself a couple of weeks ago).

She'll be 31 in August. She has always wanted to be a mother. Now she's saying maybe it's not God's plan for her to have her own kids because her life with him isn't turning out to be what she wanted. It seems she's decided to stay and wait for him, but I honestly can't say I think that's the best thing for her, even though he says he wants to marry her 'eventually.' That's why I tend to not endorse or reject the idea of timelines, because life is sometimes too complicated for them.

Too often women cling to a relationsihp out of fear they won't find anything better, then confuse that for "love" or "patience" instead of what it is: insecurity!

ETA: the litmus test I for timelines is this: if the timeline is for him, it's bad. It's being done for the wrong reasons. If the timeline is for you after many conversations have taken place, then it's coming from the right place.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 4/30/2008 2:49:24 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady
Too often women cling to a relationsihp out of fear they won't find anything better, then confuse that for 'love' or 'patience' instead of what it is: insecurity!

Oh, I agree. In this situation, though, they're both insecure, and they're both stalling, and they're both putting up with the other because they're not only afraid of not finding anything better, but they're also both afraid of being alone. One of them needs to stand up and do something about the situation, but they're both too scared, so nothing gets done. I think she thinks she'll keep him if she stays long enough (because she knows the last girlfriend to give him a timeline got dumped), but I think she lost him years ago.

ETA: I agree with your ETA too. It's just a shame that she has decided to put all of the responsibility on him. By doing so, she has handed over all power in the relationship, because everything both good and bad is his fault. She won't ever make an internal timeline, which is exactly what she needs to do. She won't make one because she will never walk.

 

[baby monster]

Date: 4/28/2008 11:07:17 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 4/28/2008 10:51:33 PM
Author: mimzy
6 or 7 years, no. but 2 or 3 or even 4....sure. i would consider that ''reasonable'', even if it doesn''t feel like it is to the girl!

and even if two people are madly in love, they are still different people and can have different feelings about the same thing. i know it seems like if two people are feeling the same thing (love) it should have the same result, but love rarely occurs in isolation and is usually accompanied by other thoughts and feelings that complicate things and differentiate the experiences for the two involved.

i''m curious how many men you know that have proposed to their girlfriends within a year, because from the way you talk it seems like every man you''ve ever known has! where are you getting these generalizations from? please don''t think i am picking on you though, and i TOTALLY agree with having an internal deadline and not sitting around waiting for any guy! i''ve only known of one person who got engaged dating their SO for less than a year, and most people thought it was a little weird...

Hi mimzy,
Mostly ever married couple I know got engaged relatively quickly. My parents got engaged at 15 months. My friend got engaged to her husband at 5 months. My grandparents dated for 8 months before engagement. My good guy friend proposed to his girlfriend on their 1 year anniversary. My boyfriend''s roommate proposed to his fiancee at around 16 months. My co-worker got engaged at 11 months. And on an on. So everyone I know has husbands who swept them off their feet, and who proposed in a relatively short period of time. They just knew their girlfriends were The One, and apparently they didn''t want to wait any longer to make it ''official.'' I know it''s not a race, but I can''t help but feel that my boyfriend''s feelings for me aren''t as strong or as urgent as these other guys are for their gals. If they were, I''d have a ring on my finger by now. And my boyfriend is 31, has his own house, and is financially secure, so there''s no reason for the delay other than perhaps he''s not all that into me.

He treats me like a princess, but when it''s time to really show the world how he feels about me by making me his wife, he can''t do it. Everyone keeps asking us when we''re getting engaged, and it''s humiliating because I don''t know.
I just want other women to realize that being a lady in waiting is not something you have to be! There are plenty of men out there who are eager to get married. We should be extra careful about buying into trite excuses, and make sure that there are truly valid reasons for why our guys aren''t ready yet.

Based on your experience with how long it takes to get engaged, your relationship of 14 months is past its expiration date. If you think your bf is not that into you, you should break up with him and move on. What seems to be the question?

 

[ringshopper2008]

IMO, 14 months is not that long of a period of time to be talking like this. Engagement & marriage should be taken seriously, and perhaps your boyfriend would rather make it to the 2 year mark before he proposes. I see nothing wrong with this. If you are just looking to get married, there are plenty of guys out there. If you are looking to marry the RIGHT guy, you should be patient.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Sorry about your friend, Gwen, sometimes it''s hard to watch people go through that.

I think people are naturally attracted to their equals, and sometimes for dependents that can be a bad combination!