Mara
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I was right... (update from I decided, I give up)
- Thread starter Patchee
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decodelighted
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Mannequin
Brilliant_Rock
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Mara
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Decodelighted, my thoughts on what you wrote:
>>experiences - there''s a difference between analysis and OVERanalyzing. My eyes are crossing at some of the philosophical riffs, but maybe I''m just a cut-to-the-chase gal.
If there''s no analyses done, how can she begin the process of extricating herself from the emotional web she''s in? Analyses can help a person to gain perspective, so they can rationalize a logical reason for staying, or leaving. Seemed to me she hadn''t quite decided which to do just yet.
>>I''ll repeat my point so it''s not lost in the rhetoric. IT DOESN''T MATTER ''WHY''. You may NEVER KNOW ''why'' he is the way he is, or why he was this way IN THIS RELATIONSHIP. Nor will you care when you''ve moved on and are experiencing the full, two-way, committed relationship you yearn for.
The ''why'' does matter. Just like the ''how''. If she can''t get this information, even from some place impartial, she may blame herself for more than what (IMHO) any woman should have to. It helps, especially when you''re confused, to gain insight from another person who can empathize.
>>In life, the only person you can control is yourself. I''d bet that most folks never get back in touch with the ''ex'' to really find out if their theories about ''WHY'' held any water at all.
I agree that you can control your actions, but not always your emotions. When you''re reacting to something strong, suppression of or substitution of rationalization doesn''t help you feel thoroughly as confrontation would. Best to face the conflict, know your part in it, and let it pass. As to the ''why'', I can''t imagine coping with silence in a time like this, without venting frustration and questions about how disproportionate her anguish is to his. I also don''t believe in irresponsibly venting about your problems without recognizing your part in it with honesty.
>>To assume that if people just faced their fears & discussed things openly - that we''d all end up being our ''true selves'' and have ''healthy relationships'' ASSUMES A LOT. Not everyone wants or desires that -- or even has THE CAPACITY. Men, women, either. I don''t assume I know what''s going on with THE OTHER PERSON or craft a story about it out of my own personal beliefs. To me: that''s ''magical thinking''. I prefer to deal with WHAT IS. But that''s just me. To each, his own.
My way of empathizing is to feel through as much of what is written. However, I''m emotionally reactive to it, and rather than write angry words about HIM, I''m writing something I hope will empower Patchee to feel better, and see if my analysis can resonate. I have been wrong in the past, but I''m confident in my abilities to understand a limited population of men, with similar characteristics and personality incompatibilities. I''m not afraid to draw criticism from this, nor am I on a soap box to boast or brag about the "magical thinking" I want to do. Were we only to deal with WHAT IS, there''d be no lessons learned in how to improve ourselves, or our choices in the next relationship.
Yes, I like to eat granola for breakfast, and prance around in pointe shoes, but my engineering profession requires me to articulate this way.
Please don''t take the tone of my writing to be condescending.
>>experiences - there''s a difference between analysis and OVERanalyzing. My eyes are crossing at some of the philosophical riffs, but maybe I''m just a cut-to-the-chase gal.
If there''s no analyses done, how can she begin the process of extricating herself from the emotional web she''s in? Analyses can help a person to gain perspective, so they can rationalize a logical reason for staying, or leaving. Seemed to me she hadn''t quite decided which to do just yet.
>>I''ll repeat my point so it''s not lost in the rhetoric. IT DOESN''T MATTER ''WHY''. You may NEVER KNOW ''why'' he is the way he is, or why he was this way IN THIS RELATIONSHIP. Nor will you care when you''ve moved on and are experiencing the full, two-way, committed relationship you yearn for.
The ''why'' does matter. Just like the ''how''. If she can''t get this information, even from some place impartial, she may blame herself for more than what (IMHO) any woman should have to. It helps, especially when you''re confused, to gain insight from another person who can empathize.
>>In life, the only person you can control is yourself. I''d bet that most folks never get back in touch with the ''ex'' to really find out if their theories about ''WHY'' held any water at all.
I agree that you can control your actions, but not always your emotions. When you''re reacting to something strong, suppression of or substitution of rationalization doesn''t help you feel thoroughly as confrontation would. Best to face the conflict, know your part in it, and let it pass. As to the ''why'', I can''t imagine coping with silence in a time like this, without venting frustration and questions about how disproportionate her anguish is to his. I also don''t believe in irresponsibly venting about your problems without recognizing your part in it with honesty.
>>To assume that if people just faced their fears & discussed things openly - that we''d all end up being our ''true selves'' and have ''healthy relationships'' ASSUMES A LOT. Not everyone wants or desires that -- or even has THE CAPACITY. Men, women, either. I don''t assume I know what''s going on with THE OTHER PERSON or craft a story about it out of my own personal beliefs. To me: that''s ''magical thinking''. I prefer to deal with WHAT IS. But that''s just me. To each, his own.
My way of empathizing is to feel through as much of what is written. However, I''m emotionally reactive to it, and rather than write angry words about HIM, I''m writing something I hope will empower Patchee to feel better, and see if my analysis can resonate. I have been wrong in the past, but I''m confident in my abilities to understand a limited population of men, with similar characteristics and personality incompatibilities. I''m not afraid to draw criticism from this, nor am I on a soap box to boast or brag about the "magical thinking" I want to do. Were we only to deal with WHAT IS, there''d be no lessons learned in how to improve ourselves, or our choices in the next relationship.
Yes, I like to eat granola for breakfast, and prance around in pointe shoes, but my engineering profession requires me to articulate this way.
Please don''t take the tone of my writing to be condescending.
rainbowtrout
Ideal_Rock
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decodelighted
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Your experience, yes. In mine, there's always something to learn, since I've often commenced actions before thoroughly thinking through how they'll affect me or my partner's "stuff."
To each their own; how about agreeing to disagree? As I've prefaced in my posts, these are my insights which are much like reading a fictional book whose characters might seem parallel to real-life situations. However, it is a given that the parties involved only know the truth of the relationship. Rather than underline the obvious, I'd rather focus on what isn't obvious, nor can be explained as simply as an on-line forum might dictate.
Therapists are people, just like you and me. They sh**, p**s, and vomit, just like everyone else. They have therapists they go to, too. My girlfriend, a noted therapist in the bay area, talks to me about her relationship problems, and we exchange advice. No, I don't believe you are required to be a consummate professional just to dish wisdom, advice, or empathy for another. Friends do that, even strangers, priests, the homeless guy down the street who just wants to listen or learn.
I would simply like to help some people in this forum with my analyses of their problems, getting to know some of them, and obtaining advice for my issues, as well. Now, is it alright with you if I do that?
Blenheim
Ideal_Rock
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I guess I''ll bite.
I also believe in analysis. Patchee would probably benefit from deeply considering what she needs in a relationship and whether this relationship, regardless of how special or wonderful it is, is enough for her. Still, I know that I personally am often susceptible to over-analyzing situations at times to the point of paralysis, and would venture to say that other women are also.
My concern, here, is that we''re bringing up issues that no amount of analysis on Patchee''s part can readily address. Example: Does he want not want to get married, period, or does he not want to get married to her? What is motivating his decision? Regardless of his motivations, the end result is that he does not want to get married to her. I doubt that his stance will easily change (although I will admit that there are exceptions), and I''m not sure that differentiating between the two would help her to choose the most appropriate course of action.
I also believe that there are inherent problems in making decisions about other people''s motivations. The problem with Patchee deciding that her boyfriend is reluctant to marry because of XYZ is that (a) it''s potentially incorrect, and (b) it may encourage Patchee to be in a situation where she thinks that if she stays with him and does and says the right things, he''ll overcome XYZ. I don''t think that she should have to rely on him changing for her happiness in the relationship.
At the same time, I don''t believe that attacking Patchee''s boyfriend or calling him names is the most effective way to deal with the situation. Patchee has been in a relationship with him for over two years. She has thought about marrying him. She''s seen sides of him that we haven''t and she''s stuck with him for some reason. A better course of action is to help her analyze what she needs and if he''s able to provide it, to kindly point out areas where his attitude shows a certain disrespect towards her. (I am perhaps sensitive to this because I used to be in a terrible relationship, and all of my friends kept correctly pointing out that he was a jerk who treated me like sh*t. I never listened.)
Meepcat, perhaps you could teach my engineer of a boyfriend a thing or two about writing skills.
Also, I''ve feel like you''ve been pretty good about saying that you''re talking out of your personal experience, which may or may not be relevant to her, and you''re trying to show her what you went through, decisions you had to make, actions you had to take.
I also believe in analysis. Patchee would probably benefit from deeply considering what she needs in a relationship and whether this relationship, regardless of how special or wonderful it is, is enough for her. Still, I know that I personally am often susceptible to over-analyzing situations at times to the point of paralysis, and would venture to say that other women are also.
My concern, here, is that we''re bringing up issues that no amount of analysis on Patchee''s part can readily address. Example: Does he want not want to get married, period, or does he not want to get married to her? What is motivating his decision? Regardless of his motivations, the end result is that he does not want to get married to her. I doubt that his stance will easily change (although I will admit that there are exceptions), and I''m not sure that differentiating between the two would help her to choose the most appropriate course of action.
I also believe that there are inherent problems in making decisions about other people''s motivations. The problem with Patchee deciding that her boyfriend is reluctant to marry because of XYZ is that (a) it''s potentially incorrect, and (b) it may encourage Patchee to be in a situation where she thinks that if she stays with him and does and says the right things, he''ll overcome XYZ. I don''t think that she should have to rely on him changing for her happiness in the relationship.
At the same time, I don''t believe that attacking Patchee''s boyfriend or calling him names is the most effective way to deal with the situation. Patchee has been in a relationship with him for over two years. She has thought about marrying him. She''s seen sides of him that we haven''t and she''s stuck with him for some reason. A better course of action is to help her analyze what she needs and if he''s able to provide it, to kindly point out areas where his attitude shows a certain disrespect towards her. (I am perhaps sensitive to this because I used to be in a terrible relationship, and all of my friends kept correctly pointing out that he was a jerk who treated me like sh*t. I never listened.)
Meepcat, perhaps you could teach my engineer of a boyfriend a thing or two about writing skills.
rainbowtrout
Ideal_Rock
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did I tell you guys that after our last pie fiasco I actually saw key limes at the mkt and made two key lime pies with real key limes, ghrahm crust and real whipped cream? Put raspberry sauce on the top too.
meep, I think this might be a conflict of styles. You are, for lack of a better descriptive, lengthly in many posts. Not bad, just true. Deco is very to-the-point and tells it like she sees it in as few words as possible, in general. Also not bad, just true.
meep, I think this might be a conflict of styles. You are, for lack of a better descriptive, lengthly in many posts. Not bad, just true. Deco is very to-the-point and tells it like she sees it in as few words as possible, in general. Also not bad, just true.
I agree. I''ve tried the succinct approach before, in previous forum circumstances. I found that over time, as more folks read my writing, they considered my postings abrasive and heartless.
So, I''d like to try the approach that viscerally resonates with me most: appropriately verbose (so as to avoid mis-representation) and heartfelt.
Mara
Super_Ideal_Rock
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It's great to speak from experience about own's own life, but at some point it can start to sound like just alot of pontificating psychobabble. A few life experiences does not an expert make. Also, overanalysis of some person no one even knows based on a few paragraphs of their life can definitely become eye-crossing at some point. It's great to be sympathetic or give a bit of advice for Patchee or whoever in each thread, but no one has all the answers...nor can one assume they know more than they do. After a while it feels a little old.
Will you make us a keylime pie, RT?
Will you make us a keylime pie, RT?
diamondfan
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I am sure the acceptance of this is so hard. But be brave, and know you deserve better. I think, in your heart, based on the other post you made, that you knew something was not right. Certainly not the man to spend the rest of your life with. Can you stop paying for the house? I do not know if that is a good thing to be doing in light of everything! You are going to be okay, more than okay. He will still be what he is once you kick him to the curb if you decide to...all the options are in your hands.
rainbowtrout
Ideal_Rock
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rainbowtrout
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Mara
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Rhapsody
Shiny_Rock
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Yes, analysis is important but we (you) do not have enough information to be making comments about the mental state of her boyfriend. We don''t even know the man.
Patchee alone is the one who needs to be doing this level of analysis, I''m afraid we''re confusing the issues by projecting into this situation things which may not be there IRL.
We''ve all had horrible, gut-wrenching experiences and I hope that sharing them helps Patchee sort through her thoughts and that she knows we''re all here to lend a sympathetic ear and give our support no matter what she chooses to do.
To all on this thread:
My apologies. I thought this thread was original for Patchee''s benefit.
Instead, it morphed a dogpile on Meepcat thread. Which I don''t understand, really. I was simply doing what I thought was sensible and helpful to someone else, but I find some disagreeables playing the role of Mother Hen.
If you don''t care for my diatribe, can you ignore it? I can''t see how telling me the pointless pontificating is of no benefit, when Patchee indicated she drew positive consideration from it. I invested deliberate thought and time in writing my posts -- you don''t have to like what I write, but if I don''t treat you like sh*t in these forums, kindly not continue to dogpile on me.
While this might not be clearly defined or approved in the forums, I intended to write my posts to this thread with conviction, not transparent consideration.
My apologies. I thought this thread was original for Patchee''s benefit.
Instead, it morphed a dogpile on Meepcat thread. Which I don''t understand, really. I was simply doing what I thought was sensible and helpful to someone else, but I find some disagreeables playing the role of Mother Hen.
If you don''t care for my diatribe, can you ignore it? I can''t see how telling me the pointless pontificating is of no benefit, when Patchee indicated she drew positive consideration from it. I invested deliberate thought and time in writing my posts -- you don''t have to like what I write, but if I don''t treat you like sh*t in these forums, kindly not continue to dogpile on me.
While this might not be clearly defined or approved in the forums, I intended to write my posts to this thread with conviction, not transparent consideration.
decodelighted
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 4/25/2006 1:32:03 AM
Author: decodelighted
Gosh I hope I have better luck with the succinct thing!The post is best that waxest least. That is, IMHO.
Um, that wasn''t an attack against you, so I hope you didn''t take it that way. Really. I did have such an experience, and I sincerely thought I''d try a different approach. It did seem to work, for awhile..
Is there a rule, somewhere, in the PriceScope Forum Rules that dictates how long posts are allowed to be?
rainbowtrout
Ideal_Rock
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people...come on.
meep, that was kind of uncalled for. I am sorry you feel beat up on. But that really isn''t how I at least read mara''s comment; perhaps you could be reading into it because you are feeling sensitive about the whole thing. I know its embarrassing to feel what you put out there in a real concerned fashion might not be appreicated the way you want.
Patchee, I''m sorry we hikacked you so badly.
meep, that was kind of uncalled for. I am sorry you feel beat up on. But that really isn''t how I at least read mara''s comment; perhaps you could be reading into it because you are feeling sensitive about the whole thing. I know its embarrassing to feel what you put out there in a real concerned fashion might not be appreicated the way you want.
Patchee, I''m sorry we hikacked you so badly.
MissAva
Ideal_Rock
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Okay I almost never get into arguments, but this thread struck a nerve with me. Analysis is great, but ONLY if you are trained. I have spent 5 years learning and studying psychology and human development and I am by no means qualified to analyze another person. I really think offering advice even with the best intentions can be dangerous, you never how things will be interpreted over the internet.
Meepcat- no one is trying to be down on you, please don’t feel like your opinions are not welcome here. If I built a bridge out of matchsticks in jr high am I then qualified to tell structural engineers everywhere how to examine stress point and distribute the load? I think people are just trying to say that while your opinion is welcome that in this instance it seems like your posts are setting you up as an authority.
Oh and pie is no fun…everyone post your mailing address I am making slime brownies and sending to you so you can see what dessert ought to be!
Meepcat- no one is trying to be down on you, please don’t feel like your opinions are not welcome here. If I built a bridge out of matchsticks in jr high am I then qualified to tell structural engineers everywhere how to examine stress point and distribute the load? I think people are just trying to say that while your opinion is welcome that in this instance it seems like your posts are setting you up as an authority.
Oh and pie is no fun…everyone post your mailing address I am making slime brownies and sending to you so you can see what dessert ought to be!
Kaleigh
Super_Ideal_Rock
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It''s all fun and games, until someone loses an eye
Well, I thought I was being helpful to Patchee, but according to Mara and Deco, I''m just magically thinking and pontificating psychobabble. I personally think my posts are too verbose and heartfelt for them to understand, otherwise, this thread-jack wouldn''t have gone this far.
Anyway, I hope the best for you Patchee. Good luck.
decodelighted
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MissAva
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Are you sure...slime brownies....very tasty...melted chocolate chips, mint buttercream frosting, brownies made from scratch.Date: 4/25/2006 1:53:09 AM
Author: kaleigh
Lemon meringue pie sounds delish to me. Ok on a serious note, this has gone too far. Not cool.
I think we need to have a PS bake sale! Proceeds can be used for sparkles!
Kaleigh
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Just what we need, I''m in!!!!Date: 4/25/2006 2:07:30 AM
Author: Matatora
Are you sure...slime brownies....very tasty...melted chocolate chips, mint buttercream frosting, brownies made from scratch.Date: 4/25/2006 1:53:09 AM
Author: kaleigh
Lemon meringue pie sounds delish to me. Ok on a serious note, this has gone too far. Not cool.
I think we need to have a PS bake sale! Proceeds can be used for sparkles!
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