Letter from a concerned and turned off PS member - now a Permanently turned off PSer

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:30:40 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM

Author: gwendolyn


Copying only part of someone''s post

Wasn''t going to dignify the rest of the hogwash with a quote is why I cut it off.

Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.

And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.

On occasion if I''m bored I might fire back :}

And as a matter of fact my local liberal rag paper did print a letter to the editor where someone was complaining about having to go to a church to vote...

Wasn''t the first time wont be the last.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/9/2008 1:38:08 PM
Author: gwendolyn
You are no victim.

Of course I'm not because one can only be a victim if one lets oneself be one.

Of course your working very hard to prove my point by making personal remarks about me when you have no clue.
But does that make me a victim naw it just makes me right.

anyway... im out too before I really say something against the rules.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 11/9/2008 1:49:48 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS

Date: 11/9/2008 12:30:40 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM


Author: gwendolyn



Copying only part of someone''s post

Wasn''t going to dignify the rest of the hogwash with a quote is why I cut it off.


Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.


And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.


On occasion if I''m bored I might fire back :}


And as a matter of fact my local liberal rag paper did print a letter to the editor where someone was complaining about having to go to a church to vote...


Wasn''t the first time wont be the last.

You''re applauding, Sarah. Do *you* have proof of these "attacks"?

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:30:40 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM

Author: gwendolyn


Copying only part of someone''s post

Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.

And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.

Karl,

You couldn''t be more correct about that!

If you don''t believe in gay marriage, you''re "close minded" at best, and a "hater" at worst.

If you think abortion is murder of a child, you''re a religious nut.

If you don''t agree with Obama''s policies you''re a right wing loon.

And, to top it off, you risk "offending" certain people here simply because you hold a different view.

There are severeal people here on PS who absolutely believe in a person''s right to free speech and expression. They deeply value everyone''s opinion, too...So long as they agree with you, that is.

If not, you''ll be mocked, ridiculed and dismissed.

So much for the liberal agenda of inclusion and welcoming diversity.

I''m sure I''ll be berated for this post as well, and so be it. It will simply prove my point.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I too have been shocked by the tone of this fourm, but sadely, I think it is a reflection of real life. I have friends from all walks of life. Some share my views, some are opposite. Those that have views that differ than mine, I make a point not to discuss those issues, because I want to perseve our friendship and not loose it over one political issue.

The people who say over the top things are a minority.

Those of you who are leaving because of this, think about this. If everyone runs from the people who say inappropriate things, because they do not share your belief, you voice dissapears and theirs becomes stronger.

 

[gwendolyn]

In response to the OP, I can understand fully Ringster's frustration and disgust with the running of this area of the forum. I believe that ATW needs much more moderation so that all people are given the chance to debate ideas and are held accountable to provide proof instead of being allowed to lodge false claims against others without any evidence whatsoever. The deliberate ignorance that may be found here, perpetuated by the lack of regulation, is appalling and has often caused me to take breaks from the board. Not ignorance in terms of views themselves, but in the manner those points are presented and the double standard that some appear to want in that they can rip others' views apart but act victimized when their own points are questioned by others.

I respect the fact that people will not agree on many things, but that all should be free to present their points and for others who disagree to respectfully and intelligently debate those points. There is much to be learned from all sides when people calmly discuss their views and rationales behind them. However, "debate" is not synonymous with "insult," and requesting proof for claims of fact is not a demonstration of "personal attacks." Claiming such is yet another cry of wolf from those who are clearly unfamiliar with the distinctions between disagreement and disrespect. Some people cannot handle political debate and should not, in my opinion, be permitted to keep spewing untruths without being held accountable for the irresponsible, misleading "information" they put forward as "fact."

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:12:50 PM
Author: beebrisk


Karl,

You couldn''t be more correct about that!

If you don''t believe in gay marriage, you''re ''close minded'' at best, and a ''hater'' at worst.

If you think abortion is murder of a child, you''re a religious nut.

If you don''t agree with Obama''s policies you''re a right wing loon.

And, to top it off, you risk ''offending'' certain people here simply because you hold a different view.

There are severeal people here on PS who absolutely believe in a person''s right to free speech and expression. They deeply value everyone''s opinion, too...So long as they agree with you, that is.

If not, you''ll be mocked, ridiculed and dismissed.

So much for the liberal agenda of inclusion and welcoming diversity.

I''m sure I''ll be berated for this post as well, and so be it. It will simply prove my point.

Thank you, Bee. I have seen the same thing regarding lack of respect for diverse views. I wish we could all respectfully post our views knowing that we are free to do so without ridicule.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:12:50 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 11/9/2008 12:30:40 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM


Author: gwendolyn



Copying only part of someone''s post

Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.


And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.

Karl,


You couldn''t be more correct about that!


If you don''t believe in gay marriage, you''re ''close minded'' at best, and a ''hater'' at worst.


If you think abortion is murder of a child, you''re a religious nut.


If you don''t agree with Obama''s policies you''re a right wing loon.


And, to top it off, you risk ''offending'' certain people here simply because you hold a different view.


There are severeal people here on PS who absolutely believe in a person''s right to free speech and expression. They deeply value everyone''s opinion, too...So long as they agree with you, that is.


If not, you''ll be mocked, ridiculed and dismissed.


So much for the liberal agenda of inclusion and welcoming diversity.


I''m sure I''ll be berated for this post as well, and so be it. It will simply prove my point.

Ooh, you mean like you did with me? Well, ain''t that funny!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:18:49 PM
Author: gwendolyn
In response to the OP, I can understand fully Ringster''s frustration and disgust with the running of this area of the forum. I believe that ATW needs much more moderation so that all people are given the chance to debate ideas and are held accountable to provide proof instead of being allowed to lodge false claims against others without any evidence whatsoever. The deliberate ignorance that may be found here, perpetuated by the lack of regulation, is appalling and has often caused me to take breaks from the board. Not ignorance in terms of views themselves, but in the manner those points are presented and the double standard that some appear to want in that they can rip others'' views apart but act victimized when their own points are questioned by others.


I respect the fact that people will not agree on many things, but that all should be free to present their points and for others who disagree to respectfully and intelligently debate those points. There is much to be learned from all sides when people calmly discuss their views and rationales behind them. However, ''debate'' is not synonymous with ''insult,'' and requesting proof for claims of fact is not a demonstration of ''personal attacks.'' Claiming such is yet another cry of wolf from those who are clearly unfamiliar with the distinctions between disagreement and disrespect. Some people cannot handle political debate and should not, in my opinion, be permitted to keep spewing untruths without being held accountable for the irresponsible, misleading ''information'' they put forward as ''fact.''

Gwen, you just keep on hitting the nail on the head girl!!

 

[tradergirl]

Karl

Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.

And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.


Ain''t that the truth. They''re not just on this thread, they''re on this page! And every other page! Amazing isn''t it how Hopey Changey has polarized people so much. Far more than Bush ever did! People are even fighting on my dog rescue boards! We''re all supposed to "come together" now that they have what they want. But who can forget "Jesusland" and the "He''s Not My President" bumper stickers? I may go and see if I can find one of them!

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:12:50 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 11/9/2008 12:30:40 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM

Author: gwendolyn


Copying only part of someone''s post

Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.

And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.

Karl,

You couldn''t be more correct about that!

If you don''t believe in gay marriage, you''re ''close minded'' at best, and a ''hater'' at worst.

If you think abortion is murder of a child, you''re a religious nut.

If you don''t agree with Obama''s policies you''re a right wing loon.

And, to top it off, you risk ''offending'' certain people here simply because you hold a different view.

There are severeal people here on PS who absolutely believe in a person''s right to free speech and expression. They deeply value everyone''s opinion, too...So long as they agree with you, that is.

If not, you''ll be mocked, ridiculed and dismissed.

So much for the liberal agenda of inclusion and welcoming diversity.

I''m sure I''ll be berated for this post as well, and so be it. It will simply prove my point.

Don''t forget, being called a bigot as well.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:31:57 PM
Author: starsapphire


Don''t forget, being called a bigot as well.

how did those posts about black folks work out for ya?

oh wait, they were deleted.

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:38:12 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 11/9/2008 3:31:57 PM
Author: starsapphire


Don''t forget, being called a bigot as well.

how did those posts about black folks work out for ya?

oh wait, they were deleted.

You prove the point above so well, you are one of the worst on here.

 

[CDNinNYC]

Honestly, these personal attacks are getting ridiculous.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:22:49 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 11/9/2008 3:12:50 PM

Author: beebrisk



Karl,


You couldn''t be more correct about that!


If you don''t believe in gay marriage, you''re ''close minded'' at best, and a ''hater'' at worst.


If you think abortion is murder of a child, you''re a religious nut.


If you don''t agree with Obama''s policies you''re a right wing loon.


And, to top it off, you risk ''offending'' certain people here simply because you hold a different view.


There are severeal people here on PS who absolutely believe in a person''s right to free speech and expression. They deeply value everyone''s opinion, too...So long as they agree with you, that is.


If not, you''ll be mocked, ridiculed and dismissed.


So much for the liberal agenda of inclusion and welcoming diversity.


I''m sure I''ll be berated for this post as well, and so be it. It will simply prove my point.

Thank you, Bee. I have seen the same thing regarding lack of respect for diverse views. I wish we could all respectfully post our views knowing that we are free to do so without ridicule.

...And thank you DS!

I will probably continue to post here as well as other forums without actual need to "feel free to do so without ridicule". The ridicule doesn''t hinder or hurt me. It'' actually bolsters my view, and often proves my point, so in some ways I actually welcome it...if that makes sense!

It''s just that every once in a while you gotta point out the hypocrisy of people who pride themselves on being ultimately tolerant, believe in freedom of speech and expression, and who welcome diversity of thought and opinion--as long as those thoughts and opinions conform with their own.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:40:24 PM
Author: CDNinNYC
Honestly, these personal attacks are getting ridiculous.

I agree; maybe we ALL can agree to DISAGREE and move on. . .

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:39:30 PM
Author: starsapphire

Date: 11/9/2008 3:38:12 PM

Author: MoonWater

Date: 11/9/2008 3:31:57 PM

Author: starsapphire



Don''t forget, being called a bigot as well.

how did those posts about black folks work out for ya?


oh wait, they were deleted.

You prove the point above so well, you are one of the worst on here.

I''m going to send you my dry cleaning bill. You made me pee myself laughing.

Remember, I''m not the one that deleted your posts.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:41:53 PM
Author: Skippy123

Date: 11/9/2008 3:40:24 PM
Author: CDNinNYC
Honestly, these personal attacks are getting ridiculous.

I agree; maybe we ALL can agree to DISAGREE.

Ditto.

You know, this thread has dissolved into exactly what Ringster was talking about in the reason that she didn''t want to be here anymore. I find that ironic.

I''ve stayed away from posting in this thread because I''ve been waiting for it to come to this, even though I hoped for it to not come to that. It really sucks to see that I wasn''t wrong after all.

 

[starsapphire]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:40:30 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 11/9/2008 3:22:49 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 11/9/2008 3:12:50 PM

Author: beebrisk



Karl,


You couldn''t be more correct about that!


If you don''t believe in gay marriage, you''re ''close minded'' at best, and a ''hater'' at worst.


If you think abortion is murder of a child, you''re a religious nut.


If you don''t agree with Obama''s policies you''re a right wing loon.


And, to top it off, you risk ''offending'' certain people here simply because you hold a different view.


There are severeal people here on PS who absolutely believe in a person''s right to free speech and expression. They deeply value everyone''s opinion, too...So long as they agree with you, that is.


If not, you''ll be mocked, ridiculed and dismissed.


So much for the liberal agenda of inclusion and welcoming diversity.


I''m sure I''ll be berated for this post as well, and so be it. It will simply prove my point.

Thank you, Bee. I have seen the same thing regarding lack of respect for diverse views. I wish we could all respectfully post our views knowing that we are free to do so without ridicule.

...And thank you DS!

I will probably continue to post here as well as other forums without actual need to ''feel free to do so without ridicule''. The ridicule doesn''t hinder or hurt me. It'' actually bolsters my view, and often proves my point, so in some ways I actually welcome it...if that makes sense!

It''s just that every once in a while you gotta point out the hypocrisy of people who pride themselves on being ultimately tolerant, believe in freedom of speech and expression, and who welcome diversity of thought and opinion--as long as those thoughts and opinions conform with their own.

I find this to be the most intolerant board of anywhere. I agree with getting rid of this area because it has really made me dislike several people on here, and I could now, never call these people friends, because of the way things get twisted here because they are not what everyone else thinks. Evidentally, the very people who we are talking about being intolerant and twisting words are on here, and they are blind to what is being said on here. It is futile to say anymore. I won''t be back, and I won''t recommend anyone ever come here, or buy from the vendors here. It is not a nice, or friendly place. People on here have very thin skins. If you bring up a subject, you had better be ready for some people to disagree with you. Otherwise, why post it?????

And after this post, I really don''t care what you all say because someone will take something that I have said, either here or at some other time, and only post part of it, or twist it in some way, so it is completely useless to post here or anywhere anymore. You all don''t care about what other people have to say anyway, unless they agree with you so what is the point????

 

[diamondfan]

I do not think one has to support something totally to be open minded. I just think we each need to understand that our way is not THE only correct one. I feel, for example, telling a gay couple who loves each other and wants to be together that their love or relationship does not count in the eyes of whomever, God, the law, etc, is wrong. Who am I to say that? That does not make me PRO gay but I am PRO human beings. Who I am to tell someone else who or how to love, if they are of legal age, are consenting, and are not committing a crime? I DO think it is closed minded not to at least understand your view is not necessarily right for all people. You do not have to AGREE with gay marriage, for example, but to deny someone that right in their own lives IS a bit strong...there but for the grace of God go all of us.

Likewise, while I may not understand someone who is fervently religious, and lives in a way that adheres to certain doctrines, I certainly can at least try to accept that THEY believe and support those views. Again, if they allow ME to live a less religious existence, and we can co exist peacefully, it really is not my business. Why should I care if you wish to go to church many times a week? Again, I could be judgmental because it is not suiting MY way of life, but again, who am I to say what YOUR way of life should encompass? As long as it is not illegal, go for it. I have a friend who is a huge vegetarian, and I was out with her. I wanted to order a burger and then thought no, not great, maybe I should skip it and get pasta! She said, get it! I have to accept that not everyone is going to be a vegetarian, and while of course I would love it if you were, I know you eat meat, so do not avoid it on my account. She wanted to make sure I did not feel restricted in her presence and feel that I could not have what I wanted. I was worried about offending her, even though her choice should not impact my choices. It gets quite complicated. I recall arguments about second hand smoke before tons of public places went non smoking. THAT was different because someone's choice to smoke near me DID have a potential to be harmful to me. Some of this other stuff, while we might disagree with it or dislike that viewpoint, we really cannot be the thought and action police all of the time.

And the funny part is, I know it is somewhat ironic to say I hate the haters! But I mean that I want to find things in common more than I want to highlight differences. I want to find ways to coexist. And people who are just shut down to anything different are tough for me to handle. I actually really more fear those who are SO wedded to their views. I know it is also to easy to hate or try to destroy what we fear or do not comprehend, and it seems there are people out there who want to destroy those who are more liberal or more accepting of different views. So while I might shake my head and say I cannot understand how anyone wants to tell someone who they can love, or how they should vote, or how they should worship, it does make me a bit fearful that they are out there, because they WANT to take things away from others who do not agree with them. And I do find that a bit scary.

 

[AGBF]

Yikes! I went away to drive my daughter to a friend's house and I came back to this nonsense? I agree with Skippy and CDNinNYC! Let's just agree to diagree! Why do we all have to be alike? Carbon copies of each other? Why can't we believe in different things? My beloved next door neighbors have loved George W. Bush throughout his term while I am a Democrat and they have have been my closest friends who came to take care of my crippled Lab when I wasn't home or who came to check on a leak if we had one! Finer people never existed! Why can't people here with whom I differ be as fine? Please, guys, let's not tear our community apart!

Love to all,
Deb

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:55:01 PM
Author: diamondfan
Again, I could be judgmental because it is not suiting MY way of life, but again, who am I to say what YOUR way of life should encompass? As long as it is not illegal, go for it. I have a friend who is a huge vegetarian, and I was out with her. I wanted to order a burger and then thought no, not great, maybe I should skip it and get pasta! She said, get it! I have to accept that not everyone is going to be a vegetarian, and while of course I would love it if you were, I know you eat meat, so do not avoid it on my account. She wanted to make sure I did not feel restricted in her presence and feel that I could not have what I wanted. I was worried about offending her, even though her choice should not impact my choices. It gets quite complicated. I recall arguments about second hand smoke before tons of public places went non smoking. THAT was different because someone's choice to smoke near me DID have a potential to be harmful to me. Some of this other stuff, while we might disagree with it or dislike that viewpoint, we really cannot be the thought and action police all of the time.


And the funny part is, I know it is somewhat ironic to say I hate the haters! But I mean that I want to find things in common more than I want to highlight differences. I want to find ways to coexist. And people who are just shut down to anything different are tough for me to handle. I actually really more fear those who are SO wedded to their views. I know it is also to easy to hate or try to destroy what we fear or do not comprehend, and it seems there are people out there who want to destroy those who are more liberal or more accepting of different views. So while I might shake my head and say I cannot understand how anyone wants to tell someone who they can love, or how they should vote, or how they should worship, it does make me a bit fearful that they are out there, because they WANT to take things away from others who do not agree with them. And I do find that a bit scary.

Nicely said; I agree with you completely

I think we should find things that bring us together rather than push us further apart and i know life isn't sugar and flowers that is why I am open to peoples thoughts but still maintain my own faith, my own morals etc and defend myself when I feel I need to. . .

I have a friend that we are both in the same profession but during the election we had different views and I thought it was great to talk things through rationally and I have the greatest respect for her because we can agree to disagree and we can ponder each others view points. I think that is a beautiful thing and I am proud that both of us could do that as adults.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:55:01 PM
Author: diamondfan
I do not think one has to support something totally to be open minded. I just think we each need to understand that our way is not THE only correct one. I feel, for example, telling a gay couple who loves each other and wants to be together that their love or relationship does not count in the eyes of whomever, God, the law, etc, is wrong. Who am I to say that? That does not make me PRO gay but I am PRO human beings. Who I am to tell someone else who or how to love, if they are of legal age, are consenting, and are not committing a crime? Likewise, while I may not understand someone who is fervently religious, and lives in a way that adheres to certain doctrines, I certainly can at least try to accept that THEY believe and support those views. Again, if they allow ME to live a less religious existence, and we can co exist peacefully, it really is not my business. Why should I care if you wish to go to church many times a week? Again, I could be judgmental because it is not suiting MY way of life, but again, who am I to say what YOUR way of life should encompass? As long as it is not illegal, go for it. I have a friend who is a huge vegetarian, and I was out with her. I wanted to order a burger and then thought no, not great, maybe I should skip it and get pasta! She said, get it! I have to accept that not everyone is going to be a vegetarian, and while of course I would love it if you were, I know you eat meat, so do not avoid it on my account. She wanted to make sure I did not feel restricted in her presence and feel that I could not have what I wanted. I was worried about offending her, even though her choice should not impact my choices. It gets quite complicated. I recall arguments about second hand smoke before tons of public places went non smoking. THAT was different because someone''s choice to smoke near me DID have a potential to be harmful to me. Some of this other stuff, while we might disagree with it or dislike that viewpoint, we really cannot be the thought and action police all of the time.

And the funny part is, I know it is somewhat ironic to say I hate the haters! But I mean that I want to find things in common more than I want to highlight differences. I want to find ways to coexist. And people who are just shut down to anything different are tough for me to handle. I actually really more fear those who are SO wedded to their views. I know it is also to easy to hate or try to destroy what we fear or do not comprehend, and it seems there are people out there who want to destroy those who are more liberal or more accepting of different views. So while I might shake my head and say I cannot understand how anyone wants to tell someone who they can love, or how they should vote, or how they should worship, it does make me a bit fearful that they are out there, because they WANT to take things away from others who do not agree with them. And I do find that a bit scary.

DF, we do live in a democracy and have a right to vote our own consciences, thank goodness. We have the right to differ on what we believe is best for our community, state, and country based on those beliefs. And then we vote. I respect the beliefs of others. If for example, your conscience does not allow you to eat meat, then I totally respect that. But please do not put me down for eating it. Or, if I believe that human life is precious and should not be destroyed, please respect that and I will respect your right to the opinion that it is okay to abort unborn babies, or whatever the issue. I don''t hate those with opposing views on controversial topics. But I do resent the fact that my opinions may not be given respect because they don''t agree with everyone else.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:59:30 PM
Author: AGBF





Yikes! I went away to drive my daughter to a friend''s house and I came back to this nonsense? I agree with Skippy and CDNinNYC! Let''s just agree to diagree! Why do we all have to be alike? Carbon copies of each other? Why can''t we believe in different things? My beloved next door neighbors have loved George W. Bush throughout his term and have have been my closest friends who who came to take care of my crippled Lab when I wasn''t home or who came to check on a leak if we had one! Finer people never existed! Why can''t people here with whom I differ be as fine? Please, guys, let''s not tear our community apart!

Love to all,
Deb

Thank you so much, Deb!

 

[HollyS]

Date: 11/8/2008 8:19:59 PM
Author: strmrdr
So basically you want a forum where you can slam those that disagree with you and they cant respond.
I have friends I wont send here because of the religion bashing that is rampant and continues here.
Some of the worst offenders are posting in this thread and complaining.

Hmmmmmm. Haven''t gotten to every post yet, but I''m willing to bet you''ll be ''put in your place'' for that remark. Still, it needed to be said; thanks. For some reason, there are a great many people who cannot see themselves as part of the problem; but they won''t have any diffculty identifying just who is.

As for those who sanctimoniously ''take the high road'' . . . . you aren''t. Blatantly self-righteous posts about how ugly people are being is as much an indictment against certain posters as any other comment, because we all know you aren''t criticizing those who think like you. You''re throwing rocks at posters, civil or not, who do not share your viewpoint. Period.

If someone feels they need to exit PS, I''m sorry you feel we have ''failed'' you. Good bye. As for those who stay, agree to disagree and stop taking pot shots at each other under the guise of concern for some ethnic, social, religious, political, whatever group you don''t even belong to. Let''s be honest, you rag on others because you like to; not because it''s the appropriate response to some real or imagined breach of poster etiquette.

 

[mimzy]

everyone needs to put their pride aside and let go of the desire to have the last word before things get uglier than they already are. whoever "the others" are to you, accept that they will never understand, nor agree, and let it go. stop pointing fingers and bashing groups of nameless people. trying to place blame here is pointless, can't you see that? we are all guilty of something, so why doesn't everyone just wash their hands of this and step back.

or at the very least show some self restraint people!

 

[E B]

LOL. This discussion has melted into a giant ball of ridiculousness: liberals accusing conservatives of being offensive and conservatives accusing liberals of being intolerant. Bottom line? Most of us are guilty of exactly what we're accusing others of, myself included.

With the discussion of politics brings heat, and if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Try to be respectful of others' views, and at the same time, if you bring a 'controversial' view to the circle, be prepared for the responses you'll get. Check all offensive language and the personal attacks at the door. And for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, let's take all of this built-up energy to a topic about ANYTHING political. Another "was Obama actually born on Mars?" thread is preferable to the bickering in this one.

 

[Demelza]

Date: 11/9/2008 4:04:37 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 11/9/2008 3:55:01 PM

Author: diamondfan

I do not think one has to support something totally to be open minded. I just think we each need to understand that our way is not THE only correct one. I feel, for example, telling a gay couple who loves each other and wants to be together that their love or relationship does not count in the eyes of whomever, God, the law, etc, is wrong. Who am I to say that? That does not make me PRO gay but I am PRO human beings. Who I am to tell someone else who or how to love, if they are of legal age, are consenting, and are not committing a crime? Likewise, while I may not understand someone who is fervently religious, and lives in a way that adheres to certain doctrines, I certainly can at least try to accept that THEY believe and support those views. Again, if they allow ME to live a less religious existence, and we can co exist peacefully, it really is not my business. Why should I care if you wish to go to church many times a week? Again, I could be judgmental because it is not suiting MY way of life, but again, who am I to say what YOUR way of life should encompass? As long as it is not illegal, go for it. I have a friend who is a huge vegetarian, and I was out with her. I wanted to order a burger and then thought no, not great, maybe I should skip it and get pasta! She said, get it! I have to accept that not everyone is going to be a vegetarian, and while of course I would love it if you were, I know you eat meat, so do not avoid it on my account. She wanted to make sure I did not feel restricted in her presence and feel that I could not have what I wanted. I was worried about offending her, even though her choice should not impact my choices. It gets quite complicated. I recall arguments about second hand smoke before tons of public places went non smoking. THAT was different because someone''s choice to smoke near me DID have a potential to be harmful to me. Some of this other stuff, while we might disagree with it or dislike that viewpoint, we really cannot be the thought and action police all of the time.


And the funny part is, I know it is somewhat ironic to say I hate the haters! But I mean that I want to find things in common more than I want to highlight differences. I want to find ways to coexist. And people who are just shut down to anything different are tough for me to handle. I actually really more fear those who are SO wedded to their views. I know it is also to easy to hate or try to destroy what we fear or do not comprehend, and it seems there are people out there who want to destroy those who are more liberal or more accepting of different views. So while I might shake my head and say I cannot understand how anyone wants to tell someone who they can love, or how they should vote, or how they should worship, it does make me a bit fearful that they are out there, because they WANT to take things away from others who do not agree with them. And I do find that a bit scary.

DF, we do live in a democracy and have a right to vote our own consciences, thank goodness. We have the right to differ on what we believe is best for our community, state, and country based on those beliefs. And then we vote. I respect the beliefs of others. If for example, your conscience does not allow you to eat meat, then I totally respect that. But please do not put me down for eating it. Or, if I believe that human life is precious and should not be destroyed, please respect that and I will respect your right to the opinion that it is okay to abort unborn babies, or whatever the issue. I don''t hate those with opposing views on controversial topics. But I do resent the fact that my opinions may not be given respect because they don''t agree with everyone else.

I completely agree with you, DS, that all viewpoints should be respected. You have every right to eat meat or believe that abortion is immoral or whatever else your conscience tells you is just and right. That said, I don''t think it''s just or right for your (not directing this at you specifically, of course) morals to dictate public policy. I actually think Diamondfan''s meat analogy is rather apt here -- I am a vegetarian because of the ethical and environmental implications of killing animals for food. Would I vote into law a bill that outlawed eating meat for everyone? No, I would not because I don''t think everyone needs to abide by my moral code. If you (again, not you specifically) believe abortion is murder, don''t get one; if you believe gay marriage is wrong (for whatever reason), don''t marry someone of the same sex; but don''t limit my options because of your beliefs. That, to me, is one of the primary differences between liberal and conservative ideology and that is why I''m a liberal. I hope I''ve stated all this in a respectful way. I''m not meaning to challenge you specifically, DS, I''m just wanting to add my 2 cents on this issue and your post offered the opportunity to do so. I really do appreciate that you''re always respectful here.

 

[E B]

Date: 11/9/2008 5:16:15 PM
Author: Demelza

I completely agree with you, DS, that all viewpoints should be respected. You have every right to eat meat or believe that abortion is immoral or whatever else your conscience tells you is just and right. That said, I don''t think it''s just or right for your (not directing this at you specifically, of course) morals to dictate public policy. I actually think Diamondfan''s meat analogy is rather apt here -- I am a vegetarian because of the ethical and environmental implications of killing animals for food. Would I vote into law a bill that outlawed eating meat for everyone? No, I would not because I don''t think everyone needs to abide by my moral code. If you (again, not you specifically) believe abortion is murder, don''t get one; if you believe gay marriage is wrong (for whatever reason), don''t marry someone of the same sex; but don''t limit my options because of your beliefs. That, to me, is one of the primary differences between liberal and conservative ideology and that is why I''m a liberal. I hope I''ve stated all this in a respectful way. I''m not meaning to challenge you specifically, DS, I''m just wanting to add my 2 cents on this issue and your post offered the opportunity to do so. I really do appreciate that you''re always respectful here.

Very well (and respectfully) said, Demelza. I completely agree.

 

[Demelza]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:59:30 PM
Author: AGBF






Yikes! I went away to drive my daughter to a friend''s house and I came back to this nonsense? I agree with Skippy and CDNinNYC! Let''s just agree to diagree! Why do we all have to be alike? Carbon copies of each other? Why can''t we believe in different things? My beloved next door neighbors have loved George W. Bush throughout his term while I am a Democrat and they have have been my closest friends who came to take care of my crippled Lab when I wasn''t home or who came to check on a leak if we had one! Finer people never existed! Why can''t people here with whom I differ be as fine? Please, guys, let''s not tear our community apart!


Love to all,

Deb

I think part of the problem here is that we don''t "know" each other the way you know your neighbors. It''s much easier to feel anger and contempt towards an anonymous poster on a message board than it is towards someone you see everyday in 3-D. As much as PS is a community, the relative anonymity of the internet coupled with the contentiousness of politics is a potentially deadly combination. I''m quite sure we wouldn''t be speaking to each other like this if we were all face to face. Perhaps that should be the litmus test -- would I say this to someone''s face? If not, don''t post it!