Mixing lab and natural diamonds

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

Then you may not be happy with gems, a fine home in a great location or pure gold are far more valuable than most things you'd be sold in gem jewelry. But they also can lose value.

Earth grown diamonds were more expensive through the years because of controlled availability, not because they were worth more. I think that confuses many people.

I’m happy with a lot of things and for different reasons! Because I don’t think labs are special, doesn’t mean I don’t like other things. Sorry if this makes you upset but it’s just my opinion!

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

Then you may not be happy with gems, a fine home in a great location or pure gold are far more valuable than most things you'd be sold in gem jewelry. But they also can lose value.

Earth grown diamonds were more expensive through the years because of controlled availability, not because they were worth more. I think that confuses many people.

I’m happy with a lot of things and for different reasons! Because I don’t think labs are special, doesn’t mean I don’t like other things. Sorry if this makes you upset but it’s just my opinion!

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

I totally get this. BUt let's look at the numbers.
Let's take a hypothetical 2ct D/VS1 RBC
Natural= $25k
Man Made= $2500
I'm taking these numbers from one of the larger diamond sites.
Someone who paid $25k, and needs to sell for cash.... they're looking at about $12-15k recovery. A loss of $10-$12k
Even if the lab grown is worth $0 ( it's not- there's still some value there) man made is still far better from an economic standpoint. We could buy 5 Lab diamonds just from the loss of one natural

I think you may have missed my point @Rockdiamond. It does make far more economic sense to get a lab diamond because the prices are in the toilet right now, but that doesn’t sell me on wanting them any more.
Heck, it makes even more economical sense for me to tie a piece of grass to my finger, as it’s even cheaper, but that’s not appealing to me

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think you may have missed my point @Rockdiamond. It does make far more economic sense to get a lab diamond because the prices are in the toilet right now, but that doesn’t sell me on wanting them any more.
Heck, it makes even more economical sense for me to tie a piece of grass to my finger, as it’s even cheaper, but that’s not appealing to me

I appreciate your position.
From my perspective- given that they are physically identical......it seems like from a utility standpoint, lab and earth diamonds are interchangable.
But for sure, you're not alone. My wife feels exactly the same as you.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

I appreciate your position.
From my perspective- given that they are physically identical......it seems like from a utility standpoint, lab and earth diamonds are interchangable.
But for sure, you're not alone. My wife feels exactly the same as you.

If I may add my 2 cents here - I feel like diamonds and jewellery in general for me are an emotional experience- I buy them for special occasions, I save up for them, I dream about them and play around with designs etc. I associate them with certain feelings and that’s ultimately what make them worthwhile to me. Knowing that a lab diamond is so easily produced kind of kills the mental “specialness” for me (personally).

This isn’t to disparage labs, I’m glad they exist so that everyone who is comfortable with them gets to enjoy sparkles on their person!

Also, I made a thread about this a while ago (and I think you may have replied there as well), but I feel like while a lot of labs are indistinguishable from naturals, you can actually see a difference for some. The undertones are off and that is so jarring to me it drives me nuts.

 

[seaurchin]

If I may add my 2 cents here - I feel like diamonds and jewellery in general for me are an emotional experience- I buy them for special occasions, I save up for them, I dream about them and play around with designs etc. I associate them with certain feelings and that’s ultimately what make them worthwhile to me.

This, exactly. I think when we're talking about whatever we do with our disposable income, there is no right or wrong; there's only what YOU enjoy.
------------------------------------------------
Here's how I think of it: I we compared a few luxury type expenditures of equal dollar value, say: a vacation, a wine collection, a piece of jewelry, a purebred pet, a number of fine dining experiences, a painting and a designer purse, answers on which was more worthwhile would vary widely. Of course, there may well be differences in residual value too but that is not the issue or goal here.

So in my opinion, the only wrong option is to settle for something that's not what you want. I mean, this is, first and foremost, a pleasure purchase. So if you don't really want or like it, why get it at all, right?

 

[Rockdiamond]

We're all on the same page here.
As a musician, I adore old guitars. For those who don't know, a 1960 Fender Stratocaster, beat up as hell, is worth about $30k.....and it would actually be worth less if it looked brandy new.
To fill this void, Fender, and others now beat the crap out of new guitars till they look like someone abused the thing for 50 years.....they bake and then freeze them to get the finish looking cracked and antique.

To your point @AllAboardTheBlingTrain and @seaurchin such a guitar might play better and sound just like the real old one....it just doesn't have the same juju.........

But switching back to my diamond dealer hat.....lab grown stones are so much easier to find if excellent cut is a priority.
There's room for everyone on this bling train.
The opposition to lab or natural diamonds coming from people in the trade...IMO it's self-destructive.

 

[nala]

We're all on the same page here.
As a musician, I adore old guitars. For those who don't know, a 1960 Fender Stratocaster, beat up as hell, is worth about $30k.....and it would actually be worth less if it looked brandy new.
To fill this void, Fender, and others now beat the crap out of new guitars till they look like someone abused the thing for 50 years.....they bake and then freeze them to get the finish looking cracked and antique.

To your point @AllAboardTheBlingTrain and @seaurchin such a guitar might play better and sound just like the real old one....it just doesn't have the same juju.........

But switching back to my diamond dealer hat.....lab grown stones are so much easier to find if excellent cut is a priority.
There's room for everyone on this bling train.
The opposition to lab or natural diamonds coming from people in the trade...IMO it's self-destructive.

The opposition coming from
People in the trade is not self-destructive. I think they are playing a long game. Those who did offer labs, may have had a good pay day for the short term but I think they hurt themselves and the diamond industry in the long run.

 

[Sunrises Sunsets]

I’m happy with a lot of things and for different reasons! Because I don’t think labs are special, doesn’t mean I don’t like other things. Sorry if this makes you upset but it’s just my opinion!

Oh, lol, it takes much, much more than that to upset me. It was strictly for eye opening for those who are unaware of the identical products for different price points and how people perceive them.

I've said before and will reiterate... there are plenty of diamonds out there for everyone now to enjoy and who knows the difference other than the wearer. Please, you do you, just don't want people thinking it's an investment that will pay back.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The opposition coming from
People in the trade is not self-destructive. I think they are playing a long game. Those who did offer labs, may have had a good pay day for the short term but I think they hurt themselves and the diamond industry in the long run.

I have not sold man made diamonds in my retail businesses Nala. I am playing the long game.
I do not want my people to accidentally mix diamonds.
My reputation is important.
I do not like the early (and some current) marketing and 'trading off' the natural diamond rarity and pricing.
With current low wholesale prices for 3 ct FVS1 at 150th of natural diamond prices, customers who bought at half or a third of natural diamond prices might not be happy?

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think this is a very interesting topic- don't want to step on anyone's toes- we're all entitled to our own viewpoint.

I do not want my people to accidentally mix diamonds.

This is a large part of the issue.
I'm sure you have the technology to distinguish between lab and natural melee, and larger stones. But not everyone does.
If we're speaking of well vetted, curated lab stones, man made diamonds are indistinguishable from natural diamonds without expensive equipment.

As much as anyone, I want the value of natural diamonds to stay where it was only a few years back. We got a buncha them.
But that's ignoring the reality of the market.
Can we all agree that any diamond is not a good financial investment for a consumer if it's specifically purchased for that purpose?
I very much respect Garry as one of the world's foremost authorities on diamonds- and I'm proud to say as a friend.
And I respect every merchant's decision to sell whatever their clients want.
I believe a seller can offer both natural and or man made diamonds ethically, and accurately described.
Unfortunately we can likely all agree many sellers are using aggressive, nonfactual sales pitches regarding value, and other factors.

When someone purchases from a store like Garry's, they're not just purchasing a stone or piece of jewelry.
The value is greatly affected by where and how they got the treasured piece.
But again- the market overall is different.
It really seems like "powers that be" in terms of diamond pricing ( Rap) are completely ignoring the actual market forces.
Real world market prices of natural diamonds have dropped, yet rap has not adjusted accordingly.
This is changing the entire market because the major diamond selling websites Natural Diamond pricing is tied to rap.
To me, that's the part that's self destructive, unless the goal is having 2 or 3 companies own the internet market.
From a wholesale point of view, dealers actually investing in diamonds seems much less attractive than it used to when there was an established "wholesale"
I'm all in favor of a healthy diamond biz, believe me. I just think the natural diamond market needs to take the impact of lab diamonds into account better.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think this is a very interesting topic- don't want to step on anyone's toes- we're all entitled to our own viewpoint.



This is a large part of the issue.
I'm sure you have the technology to distinguish between lab and natural melee, and larger stones. But not everyone does.
If we're speaking of well vetted, curated lab stones, man made diamonds are indistinguishable from natural diamonds without expensive equipment.

As much as anyone, I want the value of natural diamonds to stay where it was only a few years back. We got a buncha them.
But that's ignoring the reality of the market.
Can we all agree that any diamond is not a good financial investment for a consumer if it's specifically purchased for that purpose?
I very much respect Garry as one of the world's foremost authorities on diamonds- and I'm proud to say as a friend.
And I respect every merchant's decision to sell whatever their clients want.
I believe a seller can offer both natural and or man made diamonds ethically, and accurately described.
Unfortunately we can likely all agree many sellers are using aggressive, nonfactual sales pitches regarding value, and other factors.

When someone purchases from a store like Garry's, they're not just purchasing a stone or piece of jewelry.
The value is greatly affected by where and how they got the treasured piece.
But again- the market overall is different.
It really seems like "powers that be" in terms of diamond pricing ( Rap) are completely ignoring the actual market forces.
Real world market prices of natural diamonds have dropped, yet rap has not adjusted accordingly.
This is changing the entire market because the major diamond selling websites Natural Diamond pricing is tied to rap.
To me, that's the part that's self destructive, unless the goal is having 2 or 3 companies own the internet market.
From a wholesale point of view, dealers actually investing in diamonds seems much less attractive than it used to when there was an established "wholesale"
I'm all in favor of a healthy diamond biz, believe me. I just think the natural diamond market needs to take the impact of lab diamonds into account better.

Excellent and well considered post David (I remember a different young David hehehe).
Re Rap price lists. There have been two drops in the past 2-3 months - but they were more drop corrections to keep the color clarity balance where it is in the marketplace.
Consider Martin Rapaport and his death threats. We in the biz know sometimes nice goods are -20 back from the list and at times like now -40%. We know how to play the game, so its like farmers and rain and floods. Sellers complain. Buyers complain.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think this is a very interesting topic- don't want to step on anyone's toes- we're all entitled to our own viewpoint.



This is a large part of the issue.
I'm sure you have the technology to distinguish between lab and natural melee, and larger stones. But not everyone does.
If we're speaking of well vetted, curated lab stones, man made diamonds are indistinguishable from natural diamonds without expensive equipment.

As much as anyone, I want the value of natural diamonds to stay where it was only a few years back. We got a buncha them.
But that's ignoring the reality of the market.
Can we all agree that any diamond is not a good financial investment for a consumer if it's specifically purchased for that purpose?
I very much respect Garry as one of the world's foremost authorities on diamonds- and I'm proud to say as a friend.
And I respect every merchant's decision to sell whatever their clients want.
I believe a seller can offer both natural and or man made diamonds ethically, and accurately described.
Unfortunately we can likely all agree many sellers are using aggressive, nonfactual sales pitches regarding value, and other factors.

When someone purchases from a store like Garry's, they're not just purchasing a stone or piece of jewelry.
The value is greatly affected by where and how they got the treasured piece.
But again- the market overall is different.
It really seems like "powers that be" in terms of diamond pricing ( Rap) are completely ignoring the actual market forces.
Real world market prices of natural diamonds have dropped, yet rap has not adjusted accordingly.
This is changing the entire market because the major diamond selling websites Natural Diamond pricing is tied to rap.
To me, that's the part that's self destructive, unless the goal is having 2 or 3 companies own the internet market.
From a wholesale point of view, dealers actually investing in diamonds seems much less attractive than it used to when there was an established "wholesale"
I'm all in favor of a healthy diamond biz, believe me. I just think the natural diamond market needs to take the impact of lab diamonds into account better.

In a separate reply David, How to tell a lab from a natural.
While I do not have the technology to identify type II natural and Lab diamonds, I can safely ID 97% with tools that add up to less than $1,000. But they do require trained gemologists of which there are 5 of us between 2 stores.
As many of you know I am not happy with the GIA.
They persist in claiming to use, and from what I see, continuing to use 365nm (invisible to the naked eye) UV for fluorescence testing and grading.
That is wrong. As i have tried in vain to inform Michael Cowing, and been frustrated with Bryan @WF, visible violet light (405nm) causes much stronger UV responses than 365nm in blue fluorescent (N3) diamonds.
Cheaper the UV torch the more natural diamonds fluoresce.
Every store should use a cheap UV torch to check in parcels of melee and customer repairs. If a ring has 10 diamonds and none fluoresce then ask the client "is this a lab grown diamond ring?". Two to five should light up.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Every store should use a cheap UV torch to check in parcels of melee and customer repairs. If a ring has 10 diamonds and none fluoresce then ask the client "is this a lab grown diamond ring?". Two to five should light up.

Isn’t this like saying that 95% of the time going through a stop sign is safe?
I wouldn’t want to base an assessment on there being no fl stones. There’s not a guarantee that they’re lab, although it might by likely….no?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Isn’t this like saying that 95% of the time going through a stop sign is safe?
I wouldn’t want to base an assessment on there being no fl stones. There’s not a guarantee that they’re lab, although it might by likely….no?

No colorless labs fluoresce blue to cheap UV torches David.
None
If you have a number of natural stones in a ring or piece then from a third to half will fluoresce.

 

[Karl_K]

The more I think about it....even if reasonably reliable today....
I am not a huge fan of saying that if 3-5 of 10 turn blue under a uv torch all is ok because there are bad people who will find reactive stones and mix them with mmd.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The more I think about it....even if reasonably reliable today....
I am not a huge fan of saying that if 3-5 of 10 turn blue under a uv torch all is ok because there are bad people who will find reactive stones and mix them with mmd.

It is a check in for salespeople with no gemological training Karl.
It fails safe to alerting a customer that their piece may be synthetic. Not IS. Maybe.
If the customer says I want to know for sure we then conduct more decisive tests while they wait.
Most will say, yes it's lab. Some will get a shock and go kill a partner.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree that no man made diamonds I’ve seen or heard of exhibit blue fluorescence. But the lack of it isn’t really proof of anything from my perspective.
I’ll check later today- we have quite a few pieces set with natural melee.
My feeling is 5-10% of the stones will flash blue….. and quite possibly some will have no flashing stones but definitely natural.
We both agree that to be sure a more definitive test is needed

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I agree that no man made diamonds I’ve seen or heard of exhibit blue fluorescence. But the lack of it isn’t really proof of anything from my perspective.
I’ll check later today- we have quite a few pieces set with natural melee.
My feeling is 5-10% of the stones will flash blue….. and quite possibly some will have no flashing stones but definitely natural.
We both agree that to be sure a more definitive test is needed

Use as cheap as possible UV source David. Not the GIA device

 

[Rockdiamond]

This old puppy was manufactured in ( gulp) 2013...anyway, well before we were even thinking about lab diamonds...out of 68 round diamonds, 4 were strong blue and 2 or 3 faint ones.

 

[Rockdiamond]

68 diamonds...4 strong..... blue 4 faint

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

In the dark? Show us your torch please? Does it pass through glass.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It’s a small sample, but that’s about what I was thinking ….. between five and 10%.
I’ve already left the office, but I’ll take a picture of my super cheap UV flashlight tomorrow

 

[Rockdiamond]

Back then, I would check occasionally too, if I saw a 50% fluorescent, I would be concerned

 

[kenny]

I have no reason besides that mind-clean thing, but I wouldn't mix natural and lab grown.
I wouldn't buy a lab grown diamond.

 

[jeaniefish]

I have no reason besides that mind-clean thing, but I wouldn't mix natural and lab grown.
I wouldn't buy a lab grown diamond.

Forgive me if this is hijacking a Thread but:
Just this morning, I advised a newly engaged young lady to steer clear of earth mined diamonds. Her fiancé bought her a lovely 4ct lab diamond but he wants to upgrade” to an earth mined. I told her what I have learned the hard way: Jewelry, especially diamonds, fall into the category of easy-to -buy -but hard- to -sell kind of purchase. I told her that saving for a down payment on a house was a much better investment. I do not suffer from the “ mind clean” thing. It’s an individual choice but just doesn’t make financial sense to me.

 

[freddyboston]

Forgive me if this is hijacking a Thread but:
Just this morning, I advised a newly engaged young lady to steer clear of earth mined diamonds. Her fiancé bought her a lovely 4ct lab diamond but he wants to upgrade” to an earth mined. I told her what I have learned the hard way: Jewelry, especially diamonds, fall into the category of easy-to -buy -but hard- to -sell kind of purchase. I told her that saving for a down payment on a house was a much better investment. I do not suffer from the “ mind clean” thing. It’s an individual choice but just doesn’t make financial sense to me.

really depends on the size of the natural... you can buy nice small or warm/cape colored or included etc naturals for low prices these days... example...most of the posters from Europe seem to shopping for .50 -<1 ct size... one of the most entertaining threads is Lovedogs quest for a milky / hazy Overblue D/E @ budget $1-2k

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It’s a small sample, but that’s about what I was thinking ….. between five and 10%.
I’ve already left the office, but I’ll take a picture of my super cheap UV flashlight tomorrow

Hi David, can you please also do this test - hard to know which you have - but on diamonds 405nm produces stronger blue fluorescence.
Test on US dollar bill security features:

• 395nm: brighter reaction
• 405nm: weaker reaction

 

[kenny]

When it comes to melee, nowadays I almost always opt for LGD. One reason is for the cost. The other reason is that in large sample analyses, they find that a lot of LGD gets mixed into parcels of otherwise natural diamonds.

When it comes to these small stones, unless you’re ready to get each one individually certified, there’s at least a fair chance that you’re gonna wind up with a mix of LGD and natural stones anyway.

That's another reason I'll never consider a design with small D-Z diamonds.
I'm not going to support a supply chain that gives a pass to fraud.

For me buying only diamonds with a legit lab report is another mind clean thing.
Besides, I want as much as possible of my budget to go to that one single diamond & no expensive precious metals for me.

I'm all about the diamond itself; I want the best rock that my money can buy.
As always YMMV.

 

[Karl_K]

igi offers mass scanning of melee.

Diamond Screening

Discover effective diamond screening methods to ensure quality & authenticity that decisively identify quality stones & gain expert insights for making diamond purchases.

www.igi.org

GIA does also.
Interestingly LGD lots are scanned to make sure they are not contaminated(their words) by mined happens a lot.