Osama Bin Laden Dead

[missy]

duplicate post

 

[missy]

I had two thoughts when I heard this news. One... I really hope it was him. Two... power vacuum... wonder who the next face of evil will be.

Sad but I guess optimism has been stamped out of me. My only thoughts were the fear of possible retaliation and the form it would take, and who the next sociopath will be we have to deal with. And how many will die.

I don't care who is hooting and hollering in the streets. At heart, I don't feel any safer. And I really wish I did.

Just re-read my post and I realized something. Dead or not. Bin Laden won. At least for me. My sense of safety, my trust in my government's ability to keep me safe, and my optimism about the fate of the conflict with the middle east are all gone. I wish I could say it was different but... its going to take a LOT MORE for me to feel safe ever again.

It's a new world and it has been for a long time unfortunately.

No, it's the same world it's always been, WE are the ones who've changed. We finally were forced to cast off the illusion - and make no mistake, it was always illusion - that America was unassailable. It's like our youth is finally over and we now have a collective sense of our own mortality, and desperately wishing to feel safe again is akin to wishing childhood back: it never works...

No, it is a very different world today.
http://www.iar-gwu.org/node/145

The 21st century has witnessed faster communication times and closer international networks, increasing the number of people engaged in warfare and complicating the dynamics of it. In turn, the battlefield has expanded. Technological developments over the past two decades have driven this change, and have done so in several ways.

First, different actors engaged in a conflict have adopted the use of cutting-edge tools in warfare. The United States has led the pack in developing conventional military weaponry. As Andrew Callam discusses in his article “Drone Wars: Armed Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and Modern Warfare”, the U.S. military relies heavily on drones to target al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders in ungoverned areas of Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia. Through DARPA, the Defense Department’s Advanced Research Projects Agency, the military is designing new models of drones, some that resemble hummingbirds and spiders, which will be used for surveillance against enemy targets.

Non-state actors, groups like al-Qaeda and Hezbollah that operate outside the territorial boundaries of the nation-state system, have also exploited new technologies for their tactical and strategic effects in warfare. Because non-state actors must be nimble and operate in the shadows, these tools go well beyond conventional military implements. They include not only the use of improvised explosive devices and suicide bombers, but also activities on the Internet to recruit members, raise money, transfer information, and generate public awareness.

Second, there has been a proliferation of real-time war reporting. The way that warfare is visualized on television and the Internet, in newspapers, or through daily communication, has a direct affect on how it is understood. Diligent attention to the news might cause someone to think that war is rampant. But just because pictures of war appear on CNN or BBC more frequently today does not mean that conflict is on the rise. Quite the opposite. Armed conflict is declining and there have been fewer deaths in war since the time of WWII than there were in both world wars.[1] It could be there is a positive correlation between increased knowledge of ongoing wars and the decline of war. As people become more aware of the horrors of war from images of death and disease they see in the news, perhaps they lose the romance for war, or begin to doubt its advocates.

The next generation of real-time conflict reporting is already starting to emerge. With the rise of user-generated content and Web 2.0 technologies—Youtube/Facebook/Twitter—witnesses to warfare are emerging not just as bystanders, or victims, but also as reporters. Youtube has shown itself to be a particularly powerful tool for documenting incidents of violence. The world watched in horror last June as the Iranian Revolutionary Guard trounced the opposition movement. Independent reporting led to the viral video of a young Iranian girl, Neda, seen graphically shot dead on camera. Pictures and videos such as these provide dramatic confirmation of the atrocities taking place, just as CNN’s reporters verified the genocide in Rwanda more than 15 years ago.

Finally, the instantaneous transfer of information via the Internet has increased the number of participants in war. Unarmed actors thousands of miles away can participate in a conflict even by sitting at their computer. In the span of a millisecond, satellite images depicting population migrations can be transferred from the office of Refugees International in Washington, D.C. to a remote computer in El Fashir, Sudan; video files from Darfur refugee camps can be uploaded to the internet for the entire world to view; and, a student studying war and conflict at George Washington University can communicate directly with members of the Sudan Liberation Movement. In the same time span, a disaffected Somali-American living in St. Paul, Minnesota can send remittances to Mogadishu, Somalia to support the cause of Al Shabab insurgents. The battlefield has become virtual. It is no longer fought on the ground but also on the web. Any willing person can become a belligerent in war, not just by fighting, but also by instantaneously transferring information, money, or technology.

As new tools enter battle, the battlefield continues to expand. It is both real and virtual, it is urban and rural. As 21st century warfare continues to evolve, it will become more complex. Understanding the way technology has changed warfare and the way it is viewed is important to the wars of the future: how they will be waged, and how they will be resolved.

And though I am glad Osama Bin Laden is dead I do not see this changing anything with regards to safety, security or peace of mind. There will be no resolution of conflicts. There are too many people out there who hate us and want to destroy us. Just like Hitler who hated for no reason and wanted to destroy so many but with the development of technology, internet etc far more destruction can be inflicted in so much less time.

Sadly, I do not see a better future for the children of tomorrow.

 

[ksinger]

Yes, the world is faster, but it's always been dangerous. We were just never truly aware it could be dangerous HERE, is what I meant.

As for the people who hate us, they are not insane. The don't hate us for no reason, or even sillier, "hate us 'cause we're free". They are amoral and evil yes, but they are coldly rational and have stated time and time again, with exacting precision, why they hate us.

 

[Viola]

It only took ten years of bombing through half of the Middle East to find the b*stard.

I hate bin Laden, *but* I don't care how evil that man was, and how much he deserved to die, the means don't justify the outcome. And I choose to mourn the means, not celebrate the outcome. Because we have won nothing.

I know we haven't forgotten about the innocent lives lost in 911, but have we forgotten about the thousands of innocent lives that were lost after that? the bombed wedding that left hundreds dead? the families that were killed? the children who were left orphans? The jails where people were held captive and tortured for years, many of them innocent? How we were deceived? Was there a hidden agenda? And the questions go on.

I just can't see the joy in it, when they've spent billions of dollars and put your economy through a mincer, bombed their way through entire countries and killed thousands of innocent civilians on the way, in hopes of maybe finding one man and his crew, and then feeling that it was worth it in the end.

What's actually upsetting to me is that people genuinely believe that the terrorism started when Al Qaida bombed the Twin Towers, no, it started long ago. We were just in the receiving end this time. (I'm not in the states, but we've been affected aswell)

Terrorism and evil can be sooo many things, and has many faces, it depends entirely on who you're asking and who's been terrorized. I just hope that this is the beginning of the end of it, the real terrorism, from both sides.

One can always dream, right?

My point is that a terrorist is a terrorist, no matter what flag he/she is hiding behind.

 

[packrat]

It's sad when a person dies. I don't see him as a person. I consider him as evil incarnate in the guise of a human. I said the same thing when I saw on FB he was dead as I did when I found out someone who had done something horrible to me died. "Oh, no shit?" and then I went on with my day. Because *I* don't feel a POS is worthy of anything more. I can't speak for other people and some people felt it was worthy of celebration. I don't know who those people are or who they may have lost during 9-11, so do I fault them for a natural reaction that was different than my own? Nope. It doesn't matter what we as a nation do b/c the people who hate us- HATE US and everything we are, everything we stand for because it's been drilled into their heads for SO LONG. It doesn't matter if everyone alive in the US started holding hands and singing Kumbaya, threw down our weapons and had puppies frolicking at our feet, gave all our money away, cured cancer, solved homelessness and famine. They'd send a bomb over and blow us up and then have a party b/c they finally got rid of us. They wouldn't suddenly have an epiphany and "aaaaahhhhhh" the joyous angels sing and the clouds part to let a ray of sunshine fall on their faces and they say "oohh I SEE I finally SEE! Americans really aren't evil and don't need to be obliterated off the face of the Earth-look at how much they love puppies! Let's get rid of our weapons and join them in peace and mirth" There is no reasoning with evil.

 

[missy]

Totally agree with packrat. People are always going to hate us for real or perceived reasons. Nothing we do will change the terrorists way of thinking. You cannot change the way they have been brainwashed.

 

[mayerling]

Totally agree with packrat. People are always going to hate us for real or perceived reasons. Nothing we do will change the terrorists way of thinking. You cannot change the way they have been brainwashed.

Just to point out that there are people who don't approve of the US's actions and yet are not terrorists. You can't think that anybody who doesn't approve of some behaviour or other is a terrorist or has been brainwashed.

 

[missy]

Totally agree with packrat. People are always going to hate us for real or perceived reasons. Nothing we do will change the terrorists way of thinking. You cannot change the way they have been brainwashed.

Just to point out that there are people who don't approve of the US's actions and yet are not terrorists. You can't think that anybody who doesn't approve of some behaviour or other is a terrorist or has been brainwashed.

Ummm, where did I write that mayerling?
I don't always approve of the US government's actions LOL.

 

[mayerling]

Totally agree with packrat. People are always going to hate us for real or perceived reasons. Nothing we do will change the terrorists way of thinking. You cannot change the way they have been brainwashed.

Just to point out that there are people who don't approve of the US's actions and yet are not terrorists. You can't think that anybody who doesn't approve of some behaviour or other is a terrorist or has been brainwashed.

Ummm, where did I write that mayerling?
I don't always approve of the US government's actions LOL.

I was under the impression that you said (and this is a paraphrase) that people will hate you for real and perceived reasons, that nothing you do will change the terrorists way of thinking because they have been brainwashed. I thought that meant that you think people who don't approve of you (or hate you as you put it) are terrorists or have been brainwashed.

 

[packrat]

I don't approve of a lot of things the US does. A LOT. I'm not talking about the people who think Americans are stupid b/c we mostly don't know simple geography and use googlemaps to find Africa. (And tho I lump myself in w/the stupid not knowing simple geography side, I do know where Africa is) That doesn't make you a terrorist b/c you have the perception that Americans are dumb. I'm talking about people who salivate and shake at the thought of killing a 7 year old American girl and her baby brother JUST because they're American.

 

[mayerling]

I don't approve of a lot of things the US does. A LOT. I'm not talking about the people who think Americans are stupid b/c we mostly don't know simple geography and use googlemaps to find Africa. (And tho I lump myself in w/the stupid not knowing simple geography side, I do know where Africa is) That doesn't make you a terrorist b/c you have the perception that Americans are dumb. I'm talking about people who salivate and shake at the thought of killing a 7 year old American girl and her baby brother JUST because they're American.

Oh, I see. I'm sorry; I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that somebody who hates you is by definition a brainwashed terrorist. Whereas I think what you were actually saying is that if somebody is a terrorist, nothing you do will stop them from hating you. Is that correct?

 

[packrat]

I don't approve of a lot of things the US does. A LOT. I'm not talking about the people who think Americans are stupid b/c we mostly don't know simple geography and use googlemaps to find Africa. (And tho I lump myself in w/the stupid not knowing simple geography side, I do know where Africa is) That doesn't make you a terrorist b/c you have the perception that Americans are dumb. I'm talking about people who salivate and shake at the thought of killing a 7 year old American girl and her baby brother JUST because they're American.

Oh, I see. I'm sorry; I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that somebody who hates you is by definition a brainwashed terrorist. Whereas I think what you were actually saying is that if somebody is a terrorist, nothing you do will stop them from hating you. Is that correct?

Yep, that's it. I was talking of OBL and his ilk. Indoctrinated from birth on our evilness and that we all deserve to die.

 

[AGBF]

It only took ten years of bombing through half of the Middle East to find the b*stard.

I hate bin Laden, *but* I don't care how evil that man was, and how much he deserved to die, the means don't justify the outcome. And I choose to mourn the means, not celebrate the outcome. Because we have won nothing.

I know we haven't forgotten about the innocent lives lost in 911, but have we forgotten about the thousands of innocent lives that were lost after that? the bombed wedding that left hundreds dead? the families that were killed? the children who were left orphans? The jails where people were held captive and tortured for years, many of them innocent? How we were deceived? Was there a hidden agenda? And the questions go on.

I just can't see the joy in it, when they've spent billions of dollars and put your economy through a mincer, bombed their way through entire countries and killed thousands of innocent civilians on the way, in hopes of maybe finding one man and his crew, and then feeling that it was worth it in the end.
...

My point is that a terrorist is a terrorist, no matter what flag he/she is hiding behind.

Viola-

Thank you for your thoughtful posting above. You touched on many points no one else had mentioned in this thread. I will not go into the substance of them, lest it lead to deeper political discussion, but suffice it to say that I am glad you remembered other events that had happened in the past ten years besides the 9/11 bombings.

Deb/AGBF

 

[missy]

Totally agree with packrat. People are always going to hate us for real or perceived reasons. Nothing we do will change the terrorists way of thinking. You cannot change the way they have been brainwashed.

Just to point out that there are people who don't approve of the US's actions and yet are not terrorists. You can't think that anybody who doesn't approve of some behaviour or other is a terrorist or has been brainwashed.

Ummm, where did I write that mayerling?
I don't always approve of the US government's actions LOL.

I was under the impression that you said (and this is a paraphrase) that people will hate you for real and perceived reasons, that nothing you do will change the terrorists way of thinking because they have been brainwashed. I thought that meant that you think people who don't approve of you (or hate you as you put it) are terrorists or have been brainwashed.

Well, as I already pointed out ( which is no small feat on this tiny smartphone keyboard BTW) you did not correctly comprehend what I wrote if that is what you thought. I was speaking of TERRORISTS. Got it?


Yes, I was also there at ground zero for the prior bombings on the WTC and I remember those all too clearly as well. I have worked only 2 blocks from ground zero for the last 22 years.

 

[suchende]

Well I see it as a spectrum, from completely indoctrinated suicide bomber to rational resenter of U.S. policies. There is nothing that can be done about the tiny tiny minority in the far extreme but plenty that can be done about the majority who resent our policies that harm them. I have a lot of hope about the future of U.S.-Islamic world politics though, thanks to the secular popular uprisings.

 

[mayerling]

Totally agree with packrat. People are always going to hate us for real or perceived reasons. Nothing we do will change the terrorists way of thinking. You cannot change the way they have been brainwashed.

Just to point out that there are people who don't approve of the US's actions and yet are not terrorists. You can't think that anybody who doesn't approve of some behaviour or other is a terrorist or has been brainwashed.

Ummm, where did I write that mayerling?
I don't always approve of the US government's actions LOL.

I was under the impression that you said (and this is a paraphrase) that people will hate you for real and perceived reasons, that nothing you do will change the terrorists way of thinking because they have been brainwashed. I thought that meant that you think people who don't approve of you (or hate you as you put it) are terrorists or have been brainwashed.

Well, as I already pointed out ( which is no small feat on this tiny smartphone keyboard BTW) you did not correctly comprehend what I wrote if that is what you thought. I was speaking of TERRORISTS. Got it?


Yes, I was also there at ground zero for the prior bombings on the WTC and I remember those all too clearly as well. I have worked only 2 blocks from ground zero for the last 22 years.

Missy, I have already admitted that I misunderstood. Please look at my last post.

 

[missy]

OK, thanks Mayerling.

 

[Viola]

It only took ten years of bombing through half of the Middle East to find the b*stard.

I hate bin Laden, *but* I don't care how evil that man was, and how much he deserved to die, the means don't justify the outcome. And I choose to mourn the means, not celebrate the outcome. Because we have won nothing.

I know we haven't forgotten about the innocent lives lost in 911, but have we forgotten about the thousands of innocent lives that were lost after that? the bombed wedding that left hundreds dead? the families that were killed? the children who were left orphans? The jails where people were held captive and tortured for years, many of them innocent? How we were deceived? Was there a hidden agenda? And the questions go on.

I just can't see the joy in it, when they've spent billions of dollars and put your economy through a mincer, bombed their way through entire countries and killed thousands of innocent civilians on the way, in hopes of maybe finding one man and his crew, and then feeling that it was worth it in the end.
...

My point is that a terrorist is a terrorist, no matter what flag he/she is hiding behind.

Viola-

Thank you for your thoughtful posting above. You touched on many points no one else had mentioned in this thread. I will not go into the substance of them, lest it lead to deeper political discussion, but suffice it to say that I am glad you remembered other events that had happened in the past ten years besides the 9/11 bombings.

Deb/AGBF

I just find the way "this" entire thing has been dealt with very unsettling, and dare I say that I find it as scary as I find Osama and his followers, it's same same, but different and with a more modern and "civilized" approach (i'm not going to use the correct political term for it). We're supposed to be well-educated and wordly because we live in "wealthy" democratic countries where free press and freedom of speech is applied and where we have access to wealth of information, where we're taught to not believe everything we hear, to criticize our source of information, etc, but yet people *still* manage to genuinely believe that Al Qaida and the islamic world (they are not the same thing) were the ones who started it and that they AAAALLL hate the existence of Americans and the West because of the way we breathe. It just baffles me.

The "devil" ( as Bush called Al Qaida) is not our worst enemy, ignorance is.

And to be clear, i'm in no way condoning Al Qaida's actions, just like I'm not condoning what the USA is doing and has for the past four decades.

 

[jstarfireb]

"I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

- Mark Twain

Love this quote!!!

You know, the interesting thing is that I'm against the death penalty...I side with Amnesty International, and I like to quote "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" and "why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" But I'm glad that justice has been done in this case. I don't think anything but death was appropriate for this monster. I'm not sure how to reconcile this cognitive dissonance (maybe it comes down to the difference between civilians and war criminals?), but for now I see his death as a triumph of good over evil. Ding, dong, the wicked witch is dead...you know? So I'm not out there dancing in the streets, but I don't blame the people who are, and I don't feel unsettled at all by it. To me, it's a celebration of victory and justice.

Whether the world is really a safer place is another issue entirely. It's something I hope for optimistically, but I don't think it changed much in reality.

I did hear something disturbing...that his 12 year-old daughter witnessed his death. That's something no child should ever have to see, no matter who the parent is.

 

[janinegirly]

Hmm, interesting - a must read before you paste and quote from FB /forums etc. (Mark Twain, MLK quotes,etc)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/social.media/05/03/quotes.twain.mlk/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[dragonfly411]

That last Twain quote was funny though.

Unfortunately in today's world, some people don't make it a point to accurately note quotes. It's a shame because these are the great figures in our history.

To continue with the subject at hand though, I do worry about being a target. I told my family the other night, I'm glad we a) are gun owners with ammunition and b) have taught each other through generations how to live off the land and survive. IF something were to ever happen, I'd like to think I have the skills to take care of myself. I'm not a huge fan of Obama and his policies and decisions, BUT I do worry for him and his family at this point as I feel that they've become huge targets with him taking so much credit.

I do hope that the soldiers who actually performed the act are being protected, and also being rewarded, because right now they sure aren't getting a lot of credit.

 

[missy]

Hmm, interesting - a must read before you paste and quote from FB /forums etc. (Mark Twain, MLK quotes,etc)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/social.media/05/03/quotes.twain.mlk/index.html?hpt=T2

LOL too funny! Thanks Janine- good to know that perhaps MLK jr and Mark Twain might have been pleased with the death of this monster!

 

[mayerling]

Now it turns out he was unarmed...

 

[iheartscience]

That last Twain quote was funny though.

Unfortunately in today's world, some people don't make it a point to accurately note quotes. It's a shame because these are the great figures in our history.

To continue with the subject at hand though, I do worry about being a target. I told my family the other night, I'm glad we a) are gun owners with ammunition and b) have taught each other through generations how to live off the land and survive. IF something were to ever happen, I'd like to think I have the skills to take care of myself. I'm not a huge fan of Obama and his policies and decisions, BUT I do worry for him and his family at this point as I feel that they've become huge targets with him taking so much credit.

I do hope that the soldiers who actually performed the act are being protected, and also being rewarded, because right now they sure aren't getting a lot of credit.

Did you not see President Obama's statement? He thanked the men who completed the mission several times. And if you've been reading newspapers or watching the news at all, there have been countless articles and stories on U.S. Navy SEALS, and specifically the group of SEALs thought to have carried out the mission. According to the articles I've read, the Navy SEALs don't discuss their missions, so there's not going to be a parade with them on a float.

President Obama is the Commander in Chief of the United States military and it was his decision alone to go forward with the mission. If it had been unsuccessful, I'm quite sure everyone would have gladly given him all the blame for that. But since it went so well, Republicans are trying as hard as they can not to give him any credit. It reeks of partisanship and sour grapes and is shameful and pathetic. The vast majority of GOP "leaders" couldn't even bring themselves to congratulate President Obama on a job well done. Palin managed to thank Bush by name, but not Obama, when Bush was unsuccessful in capturing bin Laden in his 7 years in office after 9/11. Like I said: pathetic and shameful.

 

[dragonfly411]

Thing2 - I was just going by what I have heard and seen. Yes I watched his statement, and I also saw where he gave himself quite a bit of credit. I'm not trying to take all credit *from* him, I just hope that those SEALS are being protected and thoroughly rewarded for what they did. They took a big risk.

As I also said, I'm quite concerned for the position this puts the president and his own family in. *Perhaps you should take the time to read an entire post and process it before calling people shameful and pathetic. It's shameful and pathetic that others feel the need to insult entire groups of people based on some, but not all in the group.*

BTW I'm not a republican. I'm neutral. Thanks though!

 

[Fly Girl]

I did hear something disturbing...that his 12 year-old daughter witnessed his death. That's something no child should ever have to see, no matter who the parent is.

This was my first reaction, but then I realized that leaving behind an eye witness to his death is helpful, especially since they don't want to release photos.

So glad that monster is no longer walking on this earth.

Sounds like all the intelligence they got may be even more useful in stopping future attacks.

 

[kenny]

I do not believe everything my government, or any government, tells me.
That's why I don't even bother forming opinions or reacting to all this stuff.

That's one reason I find this left vs. right food fight, and in fact all of politics, laughable.

Governments/media control us.

 

[iheartscience]

Thing2 - I was just going by what I have heard and seen. Yes I watched his statement, and I also saw where he gave himself quite a bit of credit. I'm not trying to take all credit *from* him, I just hope that those SEALS are being protected and thoroughly rewarded for what they did. They took a big risk.

As I also said, I'm quite concerned for the position this puts the president and his own family in. *Perhaps you should take the time to read an entire post and process it before calling people shameful and pathetic. It's shameful and pathetic that others feel the need to insult entire groups of people based on some, but not all in the group.*

BTW I'm not a republican. I'm neutral. Thanks though!

I don't need lessons on reading comprehension, but it appears you do. Nowhere in my post did I call you pathetic and shameful. And I stand by what I said. Thanks though!

 

[dragonfly411]

Thing - I never said you called me pathetic and shameful. I said you called people shameful and pathetic. Your post was directed at mine though, which is why I responded. All in good humor though, I enjoy conversation/discussion like this, it's good to see all view points.

 

[iheartscience]

Thing - I never said you called me pathetic and shameful. I said you called people shameful and pathetic. Your post was directed at mine though, which is why I responded. All in good humor though, I enjoy conversation/discussion like this, it's good to see all view points.

Your comment at the end of that post about not being a Republican led me to believe you thought my comments were directed at you. But either way, your comments like "I saw where he gave himself quite a bit of credit" seem to imply that President Obama was taking credit when he shouldn't have.

Regardless of political affiliation, people should give credit where credit is due: to President Obama, to the Navy SEALs who carried the mission out and to all of the people involved in the operation. Anyone who doesn't want to give President Obama any credit because of politics is pathetic and shameful.