Osama Bin Laden Dead

[Dancing Fire]

Why did they have to add to the ocean pollution by dumping that thing into it?

yeah,we should of hang his body upside down in front of the WH like they did with Mussolini after his death..

 

[John P]

"I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

- Mark Twain

 

[suchende]

Let's look at the Hague Court.

1) How would we get UBL there? Out of the compound & after secret operation, w/the Pakistani army supporting him. Into a prison where? Keep him from being broken out. Make him a martyr & target for suicide jockies trying to spring him. How many allied soldiers would die protecting him? How many civilians as "punishment" and "warning?"

2) Milosevic was in custody for 2 years before his trial at the Hague started. He died of a heart attack FOUR YEARS later while proceedings were still dragging along. Six years & still in the trial's middle.

3) Charles Taylor has been in jail for FIVE YEARS & his Hague trial is just starting. How many years (decades?) will it last? Cost how much money?

4) The only punishment UBL would receive is life in prison -- no death penalty in the Hague Court. Who would accept him as a prisoner in their country? Certainly no Western nation; most of them shied away from fighting him. So, give him to a Middle Eastern prison? And how fast do you suppose he'd "escape?" With an even more vicious hatred?

5) How about the platform a trial would give him to spout his BS? What about his ability -- and don't doubt it -- to direct murder operations from his cell?

As to Saddam, his own people executed him. There were only Iraqis present. Not a single American.

If you are really interested in the truth about Saddam, ENEMY OF THE STATE: The Trial & Execution of Saddam Hussein, by Michael Newton & Michael Scharf, is a superb way to find it. These 2 attorneys were involved in helping the Iraqis breathe life into a good legal system destroyed by Saddam. It's a rivetting read; I couldn't put it down. I gained enormous respect & sympathy for the people of Iraq -- who had a democracy before Hussein. Evil does not describe that man. You'll get enough info on his vileness to understand their need for revenge -- yet as they prepared to hang him, some Iraqis in the room were trying to make it less brutal. Emotions were too strong -- everyone in Iraq had family members & friends tortured by him.

Do some reading. It will help you form whatever opinion actual facts -- not fuzzy "kindness" -- lead you to.

--- Laurie

I believe in the tenets of the Constitution: that people have a right due process of law. Just because you take issue with the speed, format, or weaknesses of the justice system doesn't mean we should deny someone due process of the law if they're "bad" enough. As it happened, I'm not sure it was possible to arrest him rather than kill him. I would like to think America would have arrested and tried him if that were a possibility.

My understanding of Constitutional law is that non-citizen enemy combatants don't enjoy the same protections; fine. I would still prefer we uphold the spirit of the Constitution when we can.

 

[Ara Ann]

On the one hand, I am glad. The consequences of his horrible acts are just.

The cheering and partying bother me a little. I do understand it. However justified and right it is, it is still ugly. The deaths of all the
people in 911 was tragic. Osama bin Laden's death is not tragic but justice. It had to be done. It just doesn't make me want to cheer.

This sums up exactly how I feel as well. It had to be done and I am glad they were able to take him out in the way they did, no bombing, no 'jail time' etc., but his death will not end terrorism...seems a lot of people are equating his death with less terror, an 'it's over' mentality and I just don't see it that way.

 

[janinegirly]

Let's look at the Hague Court.

1) How would we get UBL there? Out of the compound & after secret operation, w/the Pakistani army supporting him. Into a prison where? Keep him from being broken out. Make him a martyr & target for suicide jockies trying to spring him. How many allied soldiers would die protecting him? How many civilians as "punishment" and "warning?"

2) Milosevic was in custody for 2 years before his trial at the Hague started. He died of a heart attack FOUR YEARS later while proceedings were still dragging along. Six years & still in the trial's middle.

3) Charles Taylor has been in jail for FIVE YEARS & his Hague trial is just starting. How many years (decades?) will it last? Cost how much money?

4) The only punishment UBL would receive is life in prison -- no death penalty in the Hague Court. Who would accept him as a prisoner in their country? Certainly no Western nation; most of them shied away from fighting him. So, give him to a Middle Eastern prison? And how fast do you suppose he'd "escape?" With an even more vicious hatred?

5) How about the platform a trial would give him to spout his BS? What about his ability -- and don't doubt it -- to direct murder operations from his cell?

As to Saddam, his own people executed him. There were only Iraqis present. Not a single American.

If you are really interested in the truth about Saddam, ENEMY OF THE STATE: The Trial & Execution of Saddam Hussein, by Michael Newton & Michael Scharf, is a superb way to find it. These 2 attorneys were involved in helping the Iraqis breathe life into a good legal system destroyed by Saddam. It's a rivetting read; I couldn't put it down. I gained enormous respect & sympathy for the people of Iraq -- who had a democracy before Hussein. Evil does not describe that man. You'll get enough info on his vileness to understand their need for revenge -- yet as they prepared to hang him, some Iraqis in the room were trying to make it less brutal. Emotions were too strong -- everyone in Iraq had family members & friends tortured by him.

Do some reading. It will help you form whatever opinion actual facts -- not fuzzy "kindness" -- lead you to.

--- Laurie

I believe in the tenets of the Constitution: that people have a right due process of law. Just because you take issue with the speed, format, or weaknesses of the justice system doesn't mean we should deny someone due process of the law if they're "bad" enough. As it happened, I'm not sure it was possible to arrest him rather than kill him. I would like to think America would have arrested and tried him if that were a possibility.

My understanding of Constitutional law is that non-citizen enemy combatants don't enjoy the same protections; fine. I would still prefer we uphold the spirit of the Constitution when we can.

If he had surrendered and not resisted they would have taken him into custody. He did not, therefore this was the next order (kill if he does not surrender). However I think most would agree it was much better this way. It's quite fascinating reading the details of the operation as it slowly is being released. He was in a mansion near a Pakistani compound - and they had no clue? Hmm.

 

[FrekeChild]

It is my understanding that it was a "capture or kill if capture isn't possible" type of order and it seems obvious that Osama, after successfully evading US intelligence for so long, would not go down without a fight.

I am sort of torn as to how to feel as well. I don't think its necessarily something to celebrate (I like the Twain quote above) but it is a major coup for US intelligence and for the men and women who accomplished this task. They deserve much praise.

Is the world a better place today? Depends on who you are I suppose. OBL was certainly a husband and father and while many people are out there celebrating, there are people out there who mourn his death as well. And those who mourn his death...are probably wanting vengeance.

Although he has fallen, there will always be someone to rise up to take his place. It's ominous...

So reason to celebrate? Not sure...this is just one long drawn out battle in a war that probably has no end.

 

[AGBF]

"I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

- Mark Twain

Ah! Mark twain is going a step farther than I would! I said nothing about where my mind went! I am a Freudian. (They are probably even more hated than are pacifists!) I think that the ravings of one's id, its cries for the death of one's enemies and the instant satisfaction of desires, are natural. They are just not acceptable in civilized society, which is why we socialize children and inculcate them with superegos! I would not celebrate a man's death, but I never said I might not wish it! (Being neurotic, I might feel guilty about my wish, however.)

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[missy]

He was in a mansion near a Pakistani compound - and they had no clue? Hmm.

It’s seems almost certain that the Pakistani military knew of bin Laden's whereabouts.
The Pakistani government is hostile to US interests. That fact is plain.

 

[missy]

And those who mourn his death...are probably wanting vengeance.

Although he has fallen, there will always be someone to rise up to take his place. It's ominous...

This fact though would not be different if Osama bin Laden was still alive. There have been and always will be people who want vengeance for real or imagined reasons. You cannot reason with crazy and these terrorists are seriously crazy. Anyone who is willing to sacrifice their life to kill their "enemies" is not sane. They have been brainwashed to the point of insanity. Whether or not bin Laden was alive would not change the fact that people hate us and want us dead. Period. The death of bin Laden however is a huge psychological victory and while it cannot bring closure to all those who lost loved ones on 9/11 it certainly allows for a new chapter in their lives to begin.

Meanwhile life goes back to normal in protecting our country against more terror attacks. This fact would not be different bin Laden was still alive and it does not change due to the fact that he is dead. However the world is a better place now that he is gone.

 

[Lula]

"I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

- Mark Twain

Brilliant -- both Twain for saying it and John for posting it

 

[Dancing Fire]

He was in a mansion near a Pakistani compound - and they had no clue? Hmm.

It’s seems almost certain that the Pakistani military knew of bin Laden's whereabouts.
The Pakistani government is hostile to US interests. That fact is plain.

of course they knew,and each year we still give Pakistan billions of dollars..

 

[missy]

He was in a mansion near a Pakistani compound - and they had no clue? Hmm.

It’s seems almost certain that the Pakistani military knew of bin Laden's whereabouts.
The Pakistani government is hostile to US interests. That fact is plain.

of course they knew,and each year we still give Pakistan billions of dollars..

Yes, the US government is certainly not the brightest IMO for so many reasons. There are so many here suffering and we give billions to those who do not have our best interests at heart at best and are our enemies at worst. Brilliant.

 

[partgypsy]

I didn't find out about this until sometime this morning, overhearing someone talking in the elevator and running to a computer to confirm. I do feel a sense of justice has been done. I have to admit I disagreed with the US approach to focus our attention on Iraq and Hussein, when he wasn't the person who was behind the attack on US soil. So I feel like we got our priorities straight in dealing with this threat. He probably wasn't active at this time but he was hugely symbolic, both to us and his followers, who I'm sure felt they were thumbing their noses at us that we couldn't find him.
From reports I've read there was intelligence that was gotten from Pakistan sources, supposedly it wasn't analyzed by Pakistan, just passed along, in the same way the Pakistan government was in the vicinity when the operation took place but did not participate, as they said because they did not want to be involved if it went badly. So, it sounds like Pakistan did cooperate, to a reluctant degree in that pressure was placed on them to cooperate.

But the job was done, with no casualties on our part, amazing job.

 

[janinegirly]

He was in a mansion near a Pakistani compound - and they had no clue? Hmm.

It’s seems almost certain that the Pakistani military knew of bin Laden's whereabouts.
The Pakistani government is hostile to US interests. That fact is plain.

of course they knew,and each year we still give Pakistan billions of dollars..

Yes, but I think the $ was given in hopes of cooperation and at the very least access (to use space for military intelligence gathering, special operation and airspace usage). But now that the job is done, let's stop with the billions!!!!

 

[suchende]

Yes, the US government is certainly not the brightest IMO for so many reasons. There are so many here suffering and we give billions to those who do not have our best interests at heart at best and are our enemies at worst. Brilliant.

really? I think keeping our would-be enemies just well-fed enough to remain docile is pretty genius, actually. In an evil genius sort of way.

 

[missy]

Yes, the US government is certainly not the brightest IMO for so many reasons. There are so many here suffering and we give billions to those who do not have our best interests at heart at best and are our enemies at worst. Brilliant.

really? I think keeping our would-be enemies just well-fed enough to remain docile is pretty genius, actually. In an evil genius sort of way.

Just docile enough to hide bin Laden from us all these years you mean?

 

[missy]

But the job was done, with no casualties on our part, amazing job.

I totally agree- they did an amazing job.

 

[suchende]

Yes, the US government is certainly not the brightest IMO for so many reasons. There are so many here suffering and we give billions to those who do not have our best interests at heart at best and are our enemies at worst. Brilliant.

really? I think keeping our would-be enemies just well-fed enough to remain docile is pretty genius, actually. In an evil genius sort of way.

Just docile enough to hide bin Laden from us all these years you mean?

I am talking about citizens, as in, poor and desperate people who may be willing to become soldiers for extremist leaders to feed their families (and maybe less likely to do so if American aid is putting food on the table). Not the government of Pakistan.

According to wikipedia, 15,000 of America's 700,000 Pakistani immigrants are MDs. Talk about brain drain. Not hard to see where the fear of resentment comes from.

 

[JewelFreak]

My understanding of Constitutional law is that non-citizen enemy combatants don't enjoy the same protections; fine. I would still prefer we uphold the spirit of the Constitution when we can.

The Constitution specifically denies its protections to enemy combatants; the Framers had plenty of personal experience at war. It left them with no illusions about niceties and the battlefield. We are signatory to the Geneva Convention, which provides for certain humane & respectful treatment for soldiers of a gov't. Al Qaeda isn't even that. No convention on earth has ever prohibited killing an arch-enemy on the field. I read this a.m. that this was a "kill" operation, not "kill or capture." Too many people would die trying to bring that nut to trial & keep him incarcerated.

My own feeling (all made up) is that they didn't ask him to surrender: "Where's Bin Laden?" The informant points. "Hey, Bozo, hello from America!" BANG. Understandable in this case, imho. (Maybe I watch too much tv!)

Who said we should mourn Osama bin Laden's death? As far as I can recall, no one did.

I specifically said I'm not upset in the least, but that celebrating anyone's death doesn't seem right. (Particularly since the death of bin Laden doesn't end anything.) Apparently nuance is lost on you, and anyone refraining from high-fiving and chest-bumping someone's death is a hippie idiot.

That's fine-I'll stay over here in my utopian flower power land and watch as all the Real Americans high five each other and cheer.

Oh my, Thing2. You sound like somebody targeted you specifically. Include me out on that.

--- Laurie

 

[missy]

Yes, the US government is certainly not the brightest IMO for so many reasons. There are so many here suffering and we give billions to those who do not have our best interests at heart at best and are our enemies at worst. Brilliant.

really? I think keeping our would-be enemies just well-fed enough to remain docile is pretty genius, actually. In an evil genius sort of way.

Just docile enough to hide bin Laden from us all these years you mean?

I am talking about citizens, as in, poor and desperate people who may be willing to become soldiers for extremist leaders to feed their families (and maybe less likely to do so if American aid is putting food on the table). Not the government of Pakistan.

According to wikipedia, 15,000 of America's 700,000 Pakistani immigrants are MDs. Talk about brain drain. Not hard to see where the fear of resentment comes from.

I feel for all the people suffering all over the world but that doesn't negate the fact we have many Americans suffering as well. People who are homeless/jobless/sick and where is their help? Not enough. Until we have universal health care for all and we have homes for all we should start giving more to those here. Look at all the aid we do give and where has it gotten us? People all over the world still despise the US government all the while taking our handouts. Hypocrisy reigns supreme.

 

[DiamondCat]

I can understand Americans celebrating the death of bin Laden, just as I'll understand Afghans and Iraqis (and others across the Muslim world) celebrating the death of Bush should he drop dead tomorrow.

 

[iheartscience]

My understanding of Constitutional law is that non-citizen enemy combatants don't enjoy the same protections; fine. I would still prefer we uphold the spirit of the Constitution when we can.

The Constitution specifically denies its protections to enemy combatants; the Framers had plenty of personal experience at war. It left them with no illusions about niceties and the battlefield. We are signatory to the Geneva Convention, which provides for certain humane & respectful treatment for soldiers of a gov't. Al Qaeda isn't even that. No convention on earth has ever prohibited killing an arch-enemy on the field. I read this a.m. that this was a "kill" operation, not "kill or capture." Too many people would die trying to bring that nut to trial & keep him incarcerated.

My own feeling (all made up) is that they didn't ask him to surrender: "Where's Bin Laden?" The informant points. "Hey, Bozo, hello from America!" BANG. Understandable in this case, imho. (Maybe I watch too much tv!)

Who said we should mourn Osama bin Laden's death? As far as I can recall, no one did.

I specifically said I'm not upset in the least, but that celebrating anyone's death doesn't seem right. (Particularly since the death of bin Laden doesn't end anything.) Apparently nuance is lost on you, and anyone refraining from high-fiving and chest-bumping someone's death is a hippie idiot.

That's fine-I'll stay over here in my utopian flower power land and watch as all the Real Americans high five each other and cheer.

Oh my, Thing2. You sound like somebody targeted you specifically. Include me out on that.

--- Laurie

Was I wrong to assume you were including me in the "Flower Power" crowd because I said I wasn't interested in celebrating someone's death? And I certainly don't feel "targeted" by you or anyone else. This is the interwebz and I like to debate.

 

[Gothgrrl]

...

 

[suchende]

JewelFreak, I am pretty sure I acknowledged the military wasn't Constitutionally prohibited from killing Osama. I just said that, in my opinion, it would be truest to the spirit of the Constitution to try people whenever possible. And your issues with how things are done at the Hague don't influence my opinion in the slightest. It's often inconvenient and risky to administer justice.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

I can't lie. I'm HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY.

I know the war isn't over. I know terrorism isn't defeated. I know nothing isn't really changed.

But I'm HAPPY. That son of a bitch didn't get what he richly deserved in terms of a painful death. But, I"m HAPPY.

 

[Ella]

Please do not quote offensive posts, it makes it much more difficult for us to remove them.

We are giving a lot of leeway with political topics and to continue doing that we need your help. Please make it as easy as possible for us to remove offensive posts.

 

[GingerP]

Seriously...wow. Talk about prejudice and hatred.

Really? Wow.

ETA: The post this is in response to was removed by administration. Please ignore this comment and proceed.

 

[suchende]

Reduce the appeal of bringing down a gov't that is intentionally preventing Muslims from entering heaven? Yeah, I don't think so.

Obama said it last night, and as he noted, Bush said it before him: this is not a war against Islam. Enraging Muslims generally just gives extremists a better grip in places like Bangladesh.

 

[AGBF]

Please do not quote offensive posts, it makes it much more difficult for us to remove them.

Oh, poor Ella! Haven't I told you that there is a reason that you get the big bucks!!? You must rue the day that some interesting event will take place on the planet and you know that people on Pricescope will want to discuss it! Thank you, my dear ma'am, for indulging us as you have!

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[iheartscience]

Please do not quote offensive posts, it makes it much more difficult for us to remove them.

Oh, poor Ella! Haven't I told you that there is a reason that you get the big bucks!!? You must rue the day that some interesting event will takes place on the planet and you know that people on pricescope will want to discuss it! Thank you, my dear ma'am, for indulging us as you have!

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

Ha, ditto! I'll try my hardest to be on my best behavior.