The Fire Thread!

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/9/2006 12:57:07 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
I know most would like to have a balance between fire and brilliance - but I''m curious which people would choose if they could only have ONE.

I went into getting a diamond knowing I wanted the most fire I could get and I didn''t care if I got brilliance and I got what I wanted.... and because I sacrificed brilliance, even in a fancy cut I did very well in fire. my earrings and my anniversary ring are the opposite... I didn''t really know much about the fire of diamonds so I went for brilliance and they''re all white and bright and round dots that do sparkle but not much fire.

Each has its own pros and cons and I can see where most would want a balance - some leaning one way and others leaning another way.... but if you couldn''t have balance and you HAD to choose... which would you choose?

Cehrabehra when i first laid out the HCA rules i placed 2x the importance on light return over fire.
HCA is 40% light return and 20% for each of fire, scintillation and spread.

Today I would consider about a 30% light return, and 25% fire with the balance of 22.5% each going to scintillation and spread.

Trouble is there are still no really effective ways to quantitaivley assess fire (or scintillation) and for me to do it justice - I should have a good tool.

But we should remember that HCA is a penalty based system. Any stone scores demerits for each of the 4 factors. So that means any diamond that has very poor light return would score very low - even though they can have excellent fire.

So that is one of the things we want to be able to incorporate in the Master stone study we hope to begin in the coming months. There are now 4 stones cut.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/9/2006 4:02:27 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/9/2006 12:57:07 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
I know most would like to have a balance between fire and brilliance - but I''m curious which people would choose if they could only have ONE.

I went into getting a diamond knowing I wanted the most fire I could get and I didn''t care if I got brilliance and I got what I wanted.... and because I sacrificed brilliance, even in a fancy cut I did very well in fire. my earrings and my anniversary ring are the opposite... I didn''t really know much about the fire of diamonds so I went for brilliance and they''re all white and bright and round dots that do sparkle but not much fire.

Each has its own pros and cons and I can see where most would want a balance - some leaning one way and others leaning another way.... but if you couldn''t have balance and you HAD to choose... which would you choose?

Cehrabehra when i first laid out the HCA rules i placed 2x the importance on light return over fire.
HCA is 40% light return and 20% for each of fire, scintillation and spread.

Today I would consider about a 30% light return, and 25% fire with the balance of 22.5% each going to scintillation and spread.

Trouble is there are still no really effective ways to quantitaivley assess fire (or scintillation) and for me to do it justice - I should have a good tool.

But we should remember that HCA is a penalty based system. Any stone scores demerits for each of the 4 factors. So that means any diamond that has very poor light return would score very low - even though they can have excellent fire.

So that is one of the things we want to be able to incorporate in the Master stone study we hope to begin in the coming months. There are now 4 stones cut.

That''s very interesting Garry - I agree it would likely be difficult to assess fire and scint. I know I''m on a major fire kick, but I don''t think that bright white light return is a bad thing - for the record. It truly is a talent to take something clear and make it look like a white spotlight! I think there is nothing wrong with wanting that or achieving that, and if you''re looking for that I see nothing wrong with tools that will accurately show you what you''re getting.

I don''t know how a tool would guage scint and fire unless it would fix a diamond on its culet in a machine that rotated it or something LOL

A stone with really good fire and really good scint (those are not scientific usages of "really good") like mine would score very low, but I''ve had many people used to looking at a lot of diamonds really wowed by what mine does.

My concern with HCA is that it excludes stones that may be beautiful just because they don''t excel in that one attribute. Now that doesn''t mean I don''t think that the HCA isn''t useful (and I''m really glad that you see it as an evolving tool), I just worry that it is encouraging a generic ideal and ignoring the diversity of beauty that can be had.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I took these a couple weeks ago and never posted them...

 

[Cehrabehra]

Fire on the wall, fire on the diamond, fire everywhere!

 

[Cehrabehra]

If anyone wonders why I wanted a diamond... this is why. Endless hours of "free" (coughcoughcough) entertainment!!! hehehe

 

[Cehrabehra]

The light for these shots is inside, no lights, dark red walls and white trim, dirty windows, ray of sunset light coming through... I only had a couple minutes from when I noticed I could make the rainbows until the light was gone.

 

[Cehrabehra]

The distance of the ring to the trim was 2-4 inches, that is the table you can see there... the smaller the table looks in the pic, the closer the stone was to the wall... - those rainbows on the wall - they are rainbows in the eye when you are looking at it! yay rainbows!!

 

[Cehrabehra]

These next two are of the same shot but I wanted to capture some detail so I split it up... first is the fire on the wall... it reminds me of the pics of space! I can''t wait to see how many rainbows I get when I add in all the melee diamonds!!! All of these rainbows are just from my one unset stone!

 

[Cehrabehra]

fire at the culet - how cool is that?? I love this pic - even if it is blurry LOL

 

[widget]

Wow, Cehra....

Astonishing pictures!!!!!

widget

 

[Ellen]

lol Widget, you can post as many pictures as you like!

fafa, your pictures are gorgeous!!

Honestly, I'm gonna have to go buy some pretty, fake flowers, they add so much.

cehra, the other day I almost took a pic like yours with the rainbows on the wall, but my batteries were dead.

And to answer your question, if I had to pick, it would be fire, no doubt.


To all those who have commented, but not posted pics, I'm really glad you're enjoying the thread.

 

[jfo]

Wow, everyone''s fire pictures are fantastic!! I definitely have not been able to capture fire in the same way, but here are a few more fire pics.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/9/2006 11:52:34 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
These next two are of the same shot but I wanted to capture some detail so I split it up... first is the fire on the wall... it reminds me of the pics of space! I can't wait to see how many rainbows I get when I add in all the melee diamonds!!! All of these rainbows are just from my one unset stone!

I was thinking about scintillation - these pics I took with the rainbows and white light on the wall are examples of the scintillation really - probably more accurate descriptor of what would be seen by an "eye" in front of that diamond... my aunt had a 7 stone ring when I was little that did this but it was all *white* light and I think my 10 stone half carat is the same... so the frequency/density/intensity/white-vs-color of scint might be more accurately guaged ala plato on the walls of the cave than by looking at the stone itself.

When you look at my pic you have tons of dispursed light, some white light - some big flashes, you have lots of medium ones, and if you look closely there are little tiny ones. I think that looking at the reflection on the wall is probably a more accurate example of what you see when you look at it with the eye as far as judging colored vs white light return in terms of scintillation.

Every time one of those little colored or white blobs passes the eye it is a scintillated twinkle of light, be it one of the colors or white. The more little spots your stone can create on the wall, the more frequent you will see a flash of color or white upon your eye. The bigger the spot on the wall, the bigger the flash upon the eye.

I think I'm on to something here!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/9/2006 4:34:49 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 10/9/2006 11:52:34 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
These next two are of the same shot but I wanted to capture some detail so I split it up... first is the fire on the wall... it reminds me of the pics of space! I can''t wait to see how many rainbows I get when I add in all the melee diamonds!!! All of these rainbows are just from my one unset stone!

I was thinking about scintillation - these pics I took with the rainbows and white light on the wall are examples of the scintillation really - probably more accurate descriptor of what would be seen by an ''eye'' in front of that diamond... my aunt had a 7 stone ring when I was little that did this but it was all *white* light and I think my 10 stone half carat is the same... so the frequency/density/intensity/white-vs-color of scint might be more accurately guaged ala plato on the walls of the cave than by looking at the stone itself.

When you look at my pic you have tons of dispursed light, some white light - some big flashes, you have lots of medium ones, and if you look closely there are little tiny ones. I think that looking at the reflection on the wall is probably a more accurate example of what you see when you look at it with the eye as far as judging colored vs white light return in terms of scintillation.

Every time one of those little colored or white blobs passes the eye it is a scintillated twinkle of light, be it one of the colors or white. The more little spots your stone can create on the wall, the more frequent you will see a flash of color or white upon your eye. The bigger the spot on the wall, the bigger the flash upon the eye.

I think I''m on to something here!

Cehrabehra this is what sergey Sivovlenko calls ETAS - effective total angular size - it is a tool he uses in DiamCalc to estimate the probability of seeing or not seeing sparkles from a diamond.

This chart is one that I made and is part of the tools I used in developing HCA at this website http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/comp/scint1.htm

I do not believe too many people have bothered to open and download the plugins they need to use these programs that I have linked to in this thread. If you had you would be so blown away with the fun you can have with it that you would commented. It is the same same as you are doing with your sparkle on the wall photos C. And it is 7 or 8 years old R&D.

But essentially what you are now experimenting with is the probability of seeing sparkles. In my photo''s here i have chopped out the head obstruction zone - you could also chop out a body zone too. It assumes the light is right behind the middle of the observers head.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/9/2006 7:21:30 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Cehrabehra this is what sergey Sivovlenko calls ETAS - effective total angular size - it is a tool he uses in DiamCalc to estimate the probability of seeing or not seeing sparkles from a diamond.

This chart is one that I made and is part of the tools I used in developing HCA at this website http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/comp/scint1.htm

I do not believe too many people have bothered to open and download the plugins they need to use these programs that I have linked to in this thread. If you had you would be so blown away with the fun you can have with it that you would commented. It is the same same as you are doing with your sparkle on the wall photos C. And it is 7 or 8 years old R&D.

But essentially what you are now experimenting with is the probability of seeing sparkles. In my photo''s here i have chopped out the head obstruction zone - you could also chop out a body zone too. It assumes the light is right behind the middle of the observers head.

I''m glad to know this is old school thinking, but I never see anything about it. I think it''s a pretty accurate guage of what I see with my eyes, though HOW it is seen is different ie rainbows on a flat surface vs passing over the iris. I''ve seen your photos before with the modifed ASET with the little cut out of a person (I''ve read everything on this board I could find from you about fire) but I haven''t been convinced that the face up view is so paramount as to ignore all of the other angles a diamond can be viewed from or all of the other angles light can come from - or both. I think it''s far far superior to nothing at all, but I''m not sure the tool should influence sellers and consumers to the extent that it might because it only takes the one view into consideration with the assumption that if that one view is good then the rest will be too. Now, you''re the expert and I''m the novice and I don''t wish to piss you off here or anything, but as a consumer these are my thoughts... the thought that a stone as gorgeous as mine would be tossed off because it didn''t meet a particular standard (of course that''s an assumption, I''ve not tested it - it could really rock for all I know and if it does I''ll be quite contrite on that one lol). True, it''s not round... but it''s still the same point. When i am out in the sunlight and my head is blocking the sun, I see diffused light, so I move the diamond 6 inches to the side and voila! obstruction is gone! How much do we spend looking at the diamonds we *wear* at a perfect 90* angle with the light source directly behind us? or at a 45* angle with the light source directly above?

And unfortunately no, not all of your goodies work for me - and I''ve no clue where to locate the plugins necessary... I can view gem files and that''s about it.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/9/2006 7:45:49 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

I''m glad to know this is old school thinking, but I never see anything about it. I think it''s a pretty accurate guage of what I see with my eyes, though HOW it is seen is different ie rainbows on a flat surface vs passing over the iris. I''ve seen your photos before with the modifed ASET with the little cut out of a person (I''ve read everything on this board I could find from you about fire) but I haven''t been convinced that the face up view is so paramount as to ignore all of the other angles a diamond can be viewed from or all of the other angles light can come from - or both. I think it''s far far superior to nothing at all, but I''m not sure the tool should influence sellers and consumers to the extent that it might because it only takes the one view into consideration with the assumption that if that one view is good then the rest will be too. hey - that is great to know you have been following stuff - and re the different lighting angles - the most useful diamCalc score is the stereo 9as in 2 eyes) tilting thru 30 degrees whole crown - it is what i look at first when running a Gem Adviser score - and C you will find it hard to p... me off - Crikey -I am an Aussie. Now, you''re the expert and I''m the novice and I don''t wish to piss you off here or anything, but as a consumer these are my thoughts... the thought that a stone as gorgeous as mine would be tossed off because it didn''t meet a particular standard (of course that''s an assumption, I''ve not tested it - it could really rock for all I know and if it does I''ll be quite contrite on that one lol). True, it''s not round... but it''s still the same point. We aim to blow the round only thinking out the window When i am out in the sunlight and my head is blocking the sun, I see diffused light, so I move the diamond 6 inches to the side and voila! obstruction is gone! How much do we spend looking at the diamonds we *wear* at a perfect 90* angle with the light source directly behind us? or at a 45* angle with the light source directly above? you obviously have not seen the new how to use ASET reference chart that uses many viewing directions http://ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp

And unfortunately no, not all of your goodies work for me - and I''ve no clue where to locate the plugins necessary... I can view gem files and that''s about it. Have you opened the link I posted above C? It should just do it for you - only sometimes you have to click to allow some ActiveX security release or something - anyway I can do it so it must be easy - and once it is done once it opens in seconds thereafter. http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/comp/scint1.htm and here is another that is from an oblique angle - but you can move all the stones about anyway http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/comp/scint2.htm

 

[dhog]

These are 2 diamond studs sitting on a mirror in direct sun

kinda looks like the reflection has all the fire so maybe we don''t need diamonds after all

alot of lens flares and/or light splitting goes on in macro lenses and even moreso in lenses
that also act as telephoto.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/9/2006 8:08:14 PM
Author: dhog
These are 2 diamond studs sitting on a mirror in direct sun

kinda looks like the reflection has all the fire so maybe we don''t need diamonds after all

alot of lens flares and/or light splitting goes on in macro lenses and even moreso in lenses
that also act as telephoto.

the mirror is reflecting the fire from the diamond....

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/9/2006 8:06:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/9/2006 7:45:49 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

I''m glad to know this is old school thinking, but I never see anything about it. I think it''s a pretty accurate guage of what I see with my eyes, though HOW it is seen is different ie rainbows on a flat surface vs passing over the iris. I''ve seen your photos before with the modifed ASET with the little cut out of a person (I''ve read everything on this board I could find from you about fire) but I haven''t been convinced that the face up view is so paramount as to ignore all of the other angles a diamond can be viewed from or all of the other angles light can come from - or both. I think it''s far far superior to nothing at all, but I''m not sure the tool should influence sellers and consumers to the extent that it might because it only takes the one view into consideration with the assumption that if that one view is good then the rest will be too. hey - that is great to know you have been following stuff - and re the different lighting angles - the most useful diamCalc score is the stereo 9as in 2 eyes) tilting thru 30 degrees whole crown - it is what i look at first when running a Gem Adviser score - and C you will find it hard to p... me off - Crikey -I am an Aussie. Now, you''re the expert and I''m the novice and I don''t wish to piss you off here or anything, but as a consumer these are my thoughts... the thought that a stone as gorgeous as mine would be tossed off because it didn''t meet a particular standard (of course that''s an assumption, I''ve not tested it - it could really rock for all I know and if it does I''ll be quite contrite on that one lol). True, it''s not round... but it''s still the same point. We aim to blow the round only thinking out the window When i am out in the sunlight and my head is blocking the sun, I see diffused light, so I move the diamond 6 inches to the side and voila! obstruction is gone! How much do we spend looking at the diamonds we *wear* at a perfect 90* angle with the light source directly behind us? or at a 45* angle with the light source directly above? you obviously have not seen the new how to use ASET reference chart that uses many viewing directions http://ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp

And unfortunately no, not all of your goodies work for me - and I''ve no clue where to locate the plugins necessary... I can view gem files and that''s about it. Have you opened the link I posted above C? It should just do it for you - only sometimes you have to click to allow some ActiveX security release or something - anyway I can do it so it must be easy - and once it is done once it opens in seconds thereafter. http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/comp/scint1.htm and here is another that is from an oblique angle - but you can move all the stones about anyway http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/comp/scint2.htm

the link above doesn''t work - says I need to update from explorer 4.0 but I''m using IE 6.0 LOL I''ll sic my husband on this in a bit... he just got home and I have to spend some time looking like I deserve more diamonds ;D BTW can''t wait to see how you plan to blow that thinking out of the window! More thoughts later...

 

[fafa]

style="WIDTH: 96.91%; HEIGHT: 155px">Date: 10/9/2006 3:05:31 PM
Author: Ellen
lol Widget, you can post as many pictures as you like!

fafa, your pictures are gorgeous!!

Honestly, I''m gonna have to go buy some pretty, fake flowers, they add so much.

cehra, the other day I almost took a pic like yours with the rainbows on the wall, but my batteries were dead.

And to answer your question, if I had to pick, it would be fire, no doubt.


To all those who have commented, but not posted pics, I''m really glad you''re enjoying the thread.

Thank you, Ellen! I love your pictures too. As for the flowers, I know they look fake because of the glitters but they''re REAL. They''re African Violets.

 

[F.Longstocking]

Wow.. LOTS to learn still! So this is what FIRE looks like! Thanks to Belle to pointing out this thread to me. Here are some pictures:

 

[F.Longstocking]

another...

 

[F.Longstocking]

and another...

 

[Gothgrrl]

fafa...love how you paired square with rounds.

molly1024....all I can say about your first pic is WOW.....look at that color!

cehrabehra...just love your stone!!!!!

 

[ccv90]

Cehrabehra,

Cool Pics. Discovered the same effect with my fiancée stone before I gave it to her. I tried all different combinations of lighting to see what it could produce (I know, like a kid playing with matches). SORRY NO PICTURES!

SO, if your board or just a wee bit curious try this (best in a dark room):

1. Get a laser light level or laser pointers.(I use a level)

2. Hold the laser directly over the stone, shining the light into the table of the stone.

3. Ovoid the direct reflections into your eyes since laser light IS NOT RECOMMENDED OR
HEALTHY ON ONES EYES.

4. Look at the red reflections on the wall, ceiling, floor. On a white ceiling at night, it looks like
a Celestial Constellation. And no, I wasn’t drunk or high when I was playing around.

5. Pay careful attention to the interior of the stone. It literally looks like the bubbling surface of
the sun.

Note: I cannot be held liable for future damages to vision acuity, loss of vision - permanent or temporary. Experimenting with laser light is not recommend. Use due diligence. Parental supervision is advised.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/10/2006 8:17:32 AM
Author: ccv90

Cehrabehra,

Cool Pics. Discovered the same effect with my fiancée stone before I gave it to her. I tried all different combinations of lighting to see what it could produce (I know, like a kid playing with matches). SORRY NO PICTURES!

SO, if your board or just a wee bit curious try this (best in a dark room):

1. Get a laser light level or laser pointers.(I use a level)

2. Hold the laser directly over the stone, shining the light into the table of the stone.

3. Ovoid the direct reflections into your eyes since laser light IS NOT RECOMMENDED OR
HEALTHY ON ONES EYES.

4. Look at the red reflections on the wall, ceiling, floor. On a white ceiling at night, it looks like
a Celestial Constellation. And no, I wasn’t drunk or high when I was playing around.

5. Pay careful attention to the interior of the stone. It literally looks like the bubbling surface of
the sun.


Note: I cannot be held liable for future damages to vision acuity, loss of vision - permanent or temporary. Experimenting with laser light is not recommend. Use due diligence. Parental supervision is advised.

Now you started something!!!

 

[Ellen]

jfro, great pics, especially the last one!

Gary, no, I haven''t tried playing with the link you gave, I''m having way too much fun with my diamond.

fafa, I pretty much figured your flowers were real. I said fake because with winter coming, that''s all that''s going to be available here. They''ll last longer too.

F, thanks for posting your pretty pics!


I got some pics yesterday morning, on the seat of my kitchen chair with the sun through the window. I wanted to take some more today with a white background on the chair at the same time, but of course it''s cloudy. Will repeat when the sun shines.

I''ve never gotten one like this.

 

[Ellen]

...

 

[Ellen]

Love this.

 

[Ellen]

Not quite in focus.