TomKat is born!

[Angela1977]

No, I didn''t end up going. These people seemed a little TOO stable (Stepford)...red flags immediately went up.

I''m not sure that it''s just a celebrity thing...they''re just the most vocal about it. And I think they tend to be a little more gullible...they''re looking for something "real" to grasp onto in a world (Hollywood) that is very much based in fantasy. Plus they can afford it, and they have the access to the media. But for every celebrity you hear about, there are 20 "normal" people who are duped into this.

 

[ephemery1]

Wow... reading this thread reminded me of a quote I heard recently, attributed to L. Ron Hubbard and saying something like, "The easiest way to make a million dollars is to start a religion." (Which may have been mentioned previously in this thread and I missed it... if so, I apologize!) But I started searching online for documentation behind this, and came upon this article in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard#Controversial_episodes. Some REALLY interesting things to ponder about this guy, no matter what you believe about Scientology itself!

Personally, I think Angela''s assessment of celebrities as just looking for something "real" to hang onto is very accurate...

 

[ephemery1]

Whoa...this is even scarier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy... read down to the quotes. OK that''s the last one, I promise.

 

[icekid]

from ephemery''s links....

"Bluntly, we are out to replace medicine in the next three years." — Hubbard College Reports, 13 March 1952

"We are not even vaguely propitiative toward medicine or psychiatry, and we are overtly intent upon assimilating every function they are now performing." — L. Ron Hubbard, Professional Auditor''s Bulletin no. 53, Ownership, 27 May 1955

riiiiiiight...... Scientolgy has done a great job at taking over medicine, hasn''t it?

 

[Angela1977]

Date: 4/19/2006 5:34:28 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

If you are going to insult someone else's religion, can you at least do it in an informed fashion?

Well, hopefully, rainbowtrout, you've read a little more about what I know...before you throw out sarcasm, please ascertain whether someone is actually uninformed or not.

I was going to post some links...I can't believe I didn't think of wikipedia. The rest of the links I have regarding this stuff are fairly disturbing, and I didn't want to upset mods or break any sort of rules. It's pretty disturbing if you really get into it...

 

[rainbowtrout]

allright people. I am going to make a longer post about this in a minute, but I just got back from dealing with the damaged e-ring stuff, so I''m going to have a glass of water and try to articulate what I think intelligently.

Angela: Prior to the longer post---I don''t advocate Scientology. I still think the post which I originally responsed to was unhelpful and uninformed.

 

[LAJennifer]

I have a few friends who are involved with Scientology. I attended a funeral at The Celebrity Centre - and while sad for my deceased friend and her family, I have to admit the service was very "stepford wives-ish". And Jason Lee delivering a very charming and humorous monologue (I thought that a bit odd for a funeral, but whatever). Everyone I have encountered seem like nice people and most are very creative and artistic. They really support each others artistic endeavors - ie: the more successful ones host art shows and such for the lesser known ones. I've concluded that they "ALL" lack critical thinking skills - as do the best artists (or artists who are able to shut down the "thinking" side of the brain and let their artistic self "create"). I think that is why a lot of celebrities are involved. I was told by one (and these were her exact words) while discussing the principles of Scientology and her perceived "benefits", "Jennifer you wouldn't do well in Scientology and you don't need it because you think for yourself." So, while I have friends who "believe" and I respect their rights to practice whatever they want (and I admire their art), I feel it is a money making scam - sucking in the vulnerable who lack the thinking skills to see it for what it is. Scientology LOVES the money the celebrities hand over. Up and coming artists LOVE the support and attention they get from the more famous ones - and yes it does help them in furthering their careers. I guess I just labeled myself as a "Suppressive Person" and a "PTS" (potential trouble source). And for every celebrity or beautiful person you see, there are 20 drones - sweeping the floors and such to "pay" for their "treatment sessions" after having maxed out all their credit cards. I just think its sad.

 

[Angela1977]

Date: 4/20/2006 4:55:07 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
allright people. I am going to make a longer post about this in a minute, but I just got back from dealing with the damaged e-ring stuff, so I''m going to have a glass of water and try to articulate what I think intelligently.

Angela: Prior to the longer post---I don''t advocate Scientology. I still think the post which I originally responsed to was unhelpful and uninformed.

Well, actually, it wasn''t uninformed, at all (aside from my typo). High level scientologists DO believe that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu#Summary_of_the_Xenu_story

The baby may not learn the story in pre-school, but she''s going to be indocrinated from the beginning into this cult that is founded on THIS.

And it wasn''t meant to be "helpful"...I was expressing my disdain for a cult. I can''t help this poor child born into it, so there was no "help" intended.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Here is my perspective on this matter and why I became upset originally:

I was raised in a Scientology family completely until I was about 12. Then my mother moved to Alabama with me and left the Church formally. She used Scientology in the custody hearings as a reason why my father should not be given custody. In retrospect I do not hugely agree or disagree with this decision. My father would have been a worse man if he had not found Scientology, they inspired him to go off drugs and become more ethical. He is not a great parent but that doesn't have a lot to do with Scientology.

After this point, I was raised mostly Bhuddist by her and when I visit my father it is okay that I am not a Scientologist, we had that conversation when I was 18 and he was fine with it.

My family are not freaks. This is why I have gotten riled up at the implications that one cannot raise a sane child within Scientology. Most of my basic morals came from Scientology, which has a very logical moral code, similar to other religions. In the time I have been involved with Scientology through my family, I have met no one who seemed more or less brainwashed than your average Orthodox Jew or born again Christian. As I considered what religion I personally wanted to be, I looked into the histories of religions. Most of them have been money making machines, become involved in corrupt politics, or hidden secrets from their worshippers. All of the worst sins of Scientology I saw duplicated in every other religon.

I say "religion" here because I have not been able to find a real differance between Scientology and other religions excepting its age. I have said this before, but if Scientology survives I am sure there will be an internal movement to "cleanse" the religion just as there was with Christianity.
I also say religion because I know from firsthand experiance that YES, there is a "real" doctrine, it is just one that I don't like. There is also the belief in a Supreme Being.
I know these may seem to be pedantic points, but what I am trying to say is that I do not necessarily attach a positive value to the word "religion." I also wish to emphasize that people in the religion are not uniformly freaks, there are many good things mixed in with the bad, and that there needs to be an awareness of the fact that, right or wrong, PEOPLE DO BELIEVE THIS AS IF IT WERE YOUR OWN SACRED DOCTRINE, whatever that may be. That means not assuming they are all freaks or out of their skulls. Frankly, I find most religion insane, but I don't go around telling Muslim women they are freaks for wearing the hijab. Things are not always as simple black-and-white as they seem.
Most of all, if you actually want to help a Scientologist who is in trouble, telling them that they are brainwashed is not the way to go about it.

That said, many if not all of the things that Angela posted are true. I completely disagree with their stance on medication, I completely disagree with their stance on mental health, and I ABHORE the attempt to censor the speech and freedoms of their members. I dislike their stance on gays.

If I had wanted to remain a Scientologist after the age of 18, I would have been required to SHUN my mother and never speak to her again because she spoke out against the church in the custody hearing. My brother will not graduate high school because my stepmother allowed him to join the Church clergy and he missed a year of high school and was made to work illegal construction labor. People are prevented from bringing suit against each other unless they clear it with the Church.

There is already a small renegade movement which the COS (church of scientology) is trying to squash that has broken off from the main organization and is standing up for their right to practice their religion without coercion. I hope (and in my own aetheist way) pray that they will succeed.

This is the first part of a two-part post.

 

[SoonIHope]

I've got to say I'm with Angela on this one.... I thought it was pretty intolerant of people to bash Scientology for humor's sake, until I actually started researching a bit a few months ago. It is WAY WAY SCARIER than I would have imagined. Rainbowtrout, I think your initial reaction was admirable and I have felt that way before when I'd heard people say similar types of things about Scientology before I knew much about it, but now I think such critiques are entirely justified, and I think it is plain that Angela really does know what she's talking about.

LAJennifer - that story is terrifying and I think really encapsulates a lot of what bothers me about scientology, and it's great to have a real life perspective as opposed to just what we've read.

ETA: Just read your post Rainbowtrout (we were posting at the same time). That is very interesting to hear and really does bring a lot more insight into this discussion. Thank you for sharing your story.

 

[rainbowtrout]

To clarify one point which looking back is not logically connected:

The fact that people believe it does not mean you owe them agreement or respect. As Angela said, I can disagree with what a terrorist believes and to him it is sacred. However, I feel that what the religion is denounced as a corrupt cult there is an awareness of the diversity of its followers which is lost. Individual Scientologists, IMO, should not be approached with the assumption that their beliefs are "crap" Individual beliefs vary as in any religion, for one. For another, as I said, the best way to change someone is not to insult them off the bat.

Angela, the reason why I responsed to your post was because I did find it obnoxious, comming from where I do, to take this so out of context. I realize you may have not been trying to help anyone, but my whole stance on Scientolgy is of trying to help others understand both the good and the bad about it, not to scream at them that all people in the religion are fed a load of crap. That is why I was annoyed. I said uninformed because, first of all, the fact that my step-grandmother has done OTIII and knows about "Xenu" doesn''t mean that she gets treated a speck different at the Christmas dinner. (And yes, we celebrate Christmas as a holiday of family togetherness.) The nomenclature "upper-level" is also a little silly--most people I know roll their eyes when people who have done their OT levels claim any sort of superiority.

My father and step-mother think its silly that she spent the money on it, in fact. So what I am objecting to here is the assumption of uniformity. On the other hand, as I have repeatedly stated, I hope that Katie Holmes has the wherewithal and presense of mind to know how much is too much.

 

[rainbowtrout]

And I final point (before I stop being a posting fool for the day)


The beliefs about aliens and Xenu aren't particularly harmful. As I hope I have made clear, there are many things scary and bad about Scientology, but that stuff isn't really it. Ridiculing it only draws attention away from the real problems--as well as being equivalent to heckling a christian about their belief in the trinity as I stated in my original post.

OK guys, thanks for putting up with me. I've actually got a mild migraine and am PS-ing until my meds kick in and I can work...

ETA: I also don't *personally* know anyone who is sweeping the floors to pay for auditing...I do regret a lot of the money my family has put into the church, though.

 

[ivanadiamond]

rainbowtrout, thank you for sharing your story, I really enjoyed hearing your point of view and feel like I learned so much from it

 

[Blenheim]

Rainbowtrout,

As always, thank you for giving us your view on Scientology. I appreciate how you're able to view it pretty objectively and recognize both the positives and the negatives.

I've been reading some of the links posted earlier in this thread, and I had a question that maybe you can answer. You've stated before that it's possible to be both a Christian and a Scientologist, or a Jew and a Scientologist. You don't have to renounce your other religion. What I've been reading also supports this. However, there were a few things that I read that seem to be at odds. Specifically, part of the Xenu story as stated on Wikipedia:

The hundreds of billions of captured thetans were taken to a type of cinema, where they were forced to watch a "three-D, super colossal motion picture" for 36 days. This implanted what Hubbard termed "various misleading data" (collectively termed the R6 implant) into the memories of the hapless thetans, "which has to do with God, the Devil, space opera, etcetera". This included all world religions, with Hubbard specifically attributing Roman Catholicism and the image of the Crucifixion to the influence of Xenu.

It seems as though Christian doctrine (as well as that of all other religions) is a result of brainwashing not of any real substance. Also, this particular quote is attributed to L. Ron Hubbard:

Everyman is then shown to have been crucified so don't think that it's an accident that this crucifixion, they found out that this applied. Somebody somewhere on this planet, back about 600 BC, found some pieces of R6, and I don't know how they found it, either by watching madmen or something, but since that time they have used it and it became what is known as Christianity. The man on the Cross. There was no Christ. But the man on the cross is shown as Everyman.

I was wondering (if you're allowed to say) how people are able to reconcile their other beliefs with Scientology.

I'm sorry that you're not feeling well. I posted in your thread about ring damage wondering if you were able to get anything resolved today. By the way, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I would hate not being able to wear my engagement ring right after getting engaged (or ever, for that matter).


ETA: I've also learned so much from your posts. I hadn't realized that you were raised in a Scientologist household until this thread; I had just thought that it was another branch of your family.

 

[marvel]

Date: 4/20/2006 6:44:38 PM
Author: ivanadiamond
rainbowtrout, thank you for sharing your story, I really enjoyed hearing your point of view and feel like I learned so much from it

Ditto! I really appreciate your perspective, Rainbow. I don't like hearing people 'dis Scientology, because I really think it comes from a lack of knowledge. I knew a family when I was growing up that where Scientologist, so I understand some of he very basicis. I don't think any of *us* should be judging others beliefs. Although, I was raised Catholic, so I can judge that religion

As far as Cruise is concerned, he's just wacked because he's wacked....can't blame that on Scientology!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 4/20/2006 6:52:10 PM
Author: Blenheim
Rainbowtrout,


I''ve been reading some of the links posted earlier in this thread, and I had a question that maybe you can answer. You''ve stated before that it''s possible to be both a Christian and a Scientologist, or a Jew and a Scientologist. You don''t have to renounce your other religion. What I''ve been reading also supports this. However, there were a few things that I read that seem to be at odds. Specifically, part of the Xenu story as stated on Wikipedia:


The hundreds of billions of captured thetans were taken to a type of cinema, where they were forced to watch a ''three-D, super colossal motion picture'' for 36 days. This implanted what Hubbard termed ''various misleading data'' (collectively termed the R6 implant) into the memories of the hapless thetans, ''which has to do with God, the Devil, space opera, etcetera''. This included all world religions, with Hubbard specifically attributing Roman Catholicism and the image of the Crucifixion to the influence of Xenu.


It seems as though Christian doctrine (as well as that of all other religions) is a result of brainwashing not of any real substance. Also, this particular quote is attributed to L. Ron Hubbard:


Everyman is then shown to have been crucified so don''t think that it''s an accident that this crucifixion, they found out that this applied. Somebody somewhere on this planet, back about 600 BC, found some pieces of R6, and I don''t know how they found it, either by watching madmen or something, but since that time they have used it and it became what is known as Christianity. The man on the Cross. There was no Christ. But the man on the cross is shown as Everyman.


I was wondering (if you''re allowed to say) how people are able to reconcile their other beliefs with Scientology.


I''m sorry that you''re not feeling well. I posted in your thread about ring damage wondering if you were able to get anything resolved today. By the way, I''m so sorry that you''re going through this. I would hate not being able to wear my engagement ring right after getting engaged (or ever, for that matter).



ETA: I''ve also learned so much from your posts. I hadn''t realized that you were raised in a Scientologist household until this thread; I had just thought that it was another branch of your family.

Just from what I''ve seen/read (I don''t extensivly research Scientology per se), here is the deal with other religions:

If you want to be involved in the "self-help" or "philosophy" type of Scientology (sort of like people who get into Bhuddist philosophy but are another faith) you are totally at liberty to keep whatever faith you want to.

As your quote indicates, as one stays with the church longer, and presumably reads more books and decides one wants to be a "Scientologist," I don''t know anyone who keeps their original faith, if they had one. The comments the church makes about being able to keep your own faith are meant to draw people into the self-help courses and then if they want to, into the religion. I think it''s important to note here that there is no offical conversion ceremony that I know of, so the boundaries are very fluid.

RE: the stuff in that quote. Lord, Ron was nuts. I think he may have been on acid or something when he wrote that. Actually, I think I may have read that book when I was younger, and I remember my Dad telling me that was the stuff in Scientology he thought was BS and Ron was tripping or something.

And of course I''m allowed to talk about it, goose

THe only time I "watch what I say" is around my dad''s boss because if he thought I was an "SP" he might fire dad (another thing I hate about the church! and yes I know it is illegal to fire someone for that, see comment about having to clear it with the church before bringing suit against another member)

 

[rainbowtrout]

Thank you guys for your kind comments. Hopefully I can be of some help. I do want to stress that I really don''t advocate giving the COS your money; they have rather shady accounting practices and the people that do the real work get screwed.

Also, if you see a child of a Scientology family who seriously appears to be mentally ill: do not pass go, do not collect 200, please DO talk to them and see if you can do anything about getting them real help. My nephew is probably schizophrenic and my father STILL has not told my aunt that he hears voices telling him to "do bad things."

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 4/20/2006 7:32:09 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady
I heard today that Scientologists aren't 'allowed' to breastfeed thier babies.. GR! Ok.. can I just say that while some Mommies don't choose to breastfeed, its quite another thing when you are only allowed to be forced by your 'religion' to feed your baby a formula with honey and herbs in it (thought up by the sci fi creep) for thier nurtrition?

Yeah.. and the Hale Bop comet had alien space craft following in its tail.........

freaks.

That is total bullshit. Both I and my brother were breastfed. Try not believing everything you hear.

 

[Blenheim]

Wasn''t it Heaven''s Gate who believed in there being a spaceship behind the comet?

And thank you for responding Rainbowtrout. That makes more sense.

 

[fire&ice]

I''ve been through this before - I tend to like to get my info from people on the fronts. I know how people can believe whatever they want. At a dinner party I happened to mention that I was a Catholic growing up. I mentioned that Good Friday was a day of obligation. I was immediately asked "what would happen to you if you didn''t go?" I said that I was not a practicing Catholic - THINKING THAT WOULD END THE DISCUSSION?

- NOT - I was asked two times -the last being - well I bet you had to confess that at confession? WTF? I finally said "No, I just have to sacrifice a small child"

- Scared the bejeebees out of her.

What''s my point - lots of misinformation from people who haven''t *been there* *done that*.

 

[ephemery1]

Rainbowtrout, thanks so much for sharing your personal info... this is one of my favorite things about forums like this... an opportunity to hear perspectives you''d never normally be exposed to, about topics that don''t always get brought up in common conversation!

 

[curlygirl]

Rainbowtrout, I am giving you a standing ovation! Your posts have been eloquent, rational and very educational. You''ve expressed your thoughts so well and I feel like a much more informed person for having read your words. Brava!!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Thanks again--I know I can come across a little preachy, so it is nice to know that the information can help people.


Fire&Ice--that is fantastic (in that awful funny way!). I would have told her that too, I bet. Child sacrifice my foot...
FI once had a child in Alabama come up to him and ask were his horns were! (he''s Jewish). People can really be amazing sometimes.

 

[XChick03]

Date: 4/20/2006 7:35:24 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady

Date: 4/20/2006 9:59:24 AM

Author: XChick03

I''m not trying to hijack, but Nic Cage names his son Kal''El? As in Clark Kent''s ''real'' name? Please, please never ever let my FI see this. Our kids would be ''Bruce Wayne,'' ''Anakin'' and ''Kal''El.''

Serious as a heart attack.. sick sick sick.. I have a friend who knows the fam and yep, he''s an odd one..

Actually, I think it''s kind of neat. I mean, it''s kind of a pretty name. A little ununusual but I think it has a nice sound.

Very interesting story, rainbow. I''m glad to see another perspective on the matter.

 

[DonaBella]

I sincerely understand alot better from where you are speaking now...I, too, appreciate your views, you sharing your life experience and totally respect you and your comments...

You are very informed and could probably teach a few people what is what from reading your post...

 

[gailrmv]

FOR ANGELA:

(This has nothing to do with Scientology, just that we have no PM!)

Anyways I hope you find this funny and not take it the wrong way: My dog (whose name is Angie) looks so much like your sweet dog in your avatar!!! Their coloring is a little different, but very similar face and eyes. On another of your posts I saw you signed "Angie." That with the picture had me cracking up thinking about my Angie on pricescope.

Can you tell us a little about your dog? My Angie is about 3 and as far as we know is a shepherd mix or perhaps Carolina Dog. I've posted a bunch of pics of her on a thread called Carolina Dogs.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Unfort., I do have a terrible potty mouth

It''s not personal, I just sometimes forget to moderate it. Sorry for the offense!

 

[hlmr]

Date: 4/20/2006 10:07:45 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady

Date: 4/20/2006 7:41:11 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

Date: 4/20/2006 7:32:09 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady
I heard today that Scientologists aren''t ''allowed'' to breastfeed thier babies.. GR! Ok.. can I just say that while some Mommies don''t choose to breastfeed, its quite another thing when you are only allowed to be forced by your ''religion'' to feed your baby a formula with honey and herbs in it (thought up by the sci fi creep) for thier nurtrition?

Yeah.. and the Hale Bop comet had alien space craft following in its tail.........

freaks.

That is total bullshit. Both I and my brother were breastfed. Try not believing everything you hear.

The swearing wasn''t really necessary.. I was just making a comment as if it were true. While I appreciate your point of view on Scientology, I can have opinion as well. The news was discussing it, I simply posted it was all.

SDL:

I think you were more than just repeating a news commentary as if it were true - you were commenting AND inserting your own descriptives. I don''t see why making a retalitory comment about this same news commentary is unacceptable......especially when it is obviously quite personal for rainbowtrout.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 4/20/2006 11:14:14 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady

Date: 4/20/2006 10:16:18 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 4/20/2006 10:07:45 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady

Date: 4/20/2006 7:41:11 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

Date: 4/20/2006 7:32:09 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady
I heard today that Scientologists aren''t ''allowed'' to breastfeed thier babies.. GR! Ok.. can I just say that while some Mommies don''t choose to breastfeed, its quite another thing when you are only allowed to be forced by your ''religion'' to feed your baby a formula with honey and herbs in it (thought up by the sci fi creep) for thier nurtrition?

Yeah.. and the Hale Bop comet had alien space craft following in its tail.........

freaks.

That is total bullshit. Both I and my brother were breastfed. Try not believing everything you hear.

The swearing wasn''t really necessary.. I was just making a comment as if it were true. While I appreciate your point of view on Scientology, I can have opinion as well. The news was discussing it, I simply posted it was all.

SDL:

I think you were more than just repeating a news commentary as if it were true - you were commenting AND inserting your own descriptives. I don''t see why making a retalitory comment about this same news commentary is unacceptable......especially when it is obviously quite personal for rainbowtrout.

Actually, when I posted the above comment, after I had just heard on the radio that report about the breast feeding and I did not see her post until AFTER I posted, and, I edited my post in appreciation after having read hers about her view on Scientology.

I respect and appreciate her view and the explainations she gave which were as a matter of fact, quite helpful in understanding Scientology as most of us do not know about it. And as adults we all can have our opinions on things.

I''m glad that we are all in agreement.

 

[Angela1977]

Date: 4/20/2006 6:52:26 PM
Author: marvel

Date: 4/20/2006 6:44:38 PM
Author: ivanadiamond
rainbowtrout, thank you for sharing your story, I really enjoyed hearing your point of view and feel like I learned so much from it

Ditto! I really appreciate your perspective, Rainbow. I don''t like hearing people ''dis Scientology, because I really think it comes from a lack of knowledge. I knew a family when I was growing up that where Scientologist, so I understand some of he very basicis. I don''t think any of *us* should be judging others beliefs. Although, I was raised Catholic, so I can judge that religion

As far as Cruise is concerned, he''s just wacked because he''s wacked....can''t blame that on Scientology!

*sigh* man, i''m not even going to touch this one...

Anyway...
Back to work, and this thread...whew!
Rainbowtrout...your experience with scientology doesn''t change the reality. I didn''t say that every person that''s a scientologist is unfit to raise a child. I''m sorry that you took it that way, but I still think that this organization is a dangerous entity that is a threat to its members and to society. Everybody has a different experience with it...hopefully yours wasn''t quite as bad as some, though it sounds like some members of your family are feeling the effects. For that, I feel very sad.
I''ve said my peace on the issue...and I think this thread is fairly played out.
I like the banter though...stimulating.