Trade Participation on Pricescope

[risingsun]

Great posts, AllisonD.

+1

 

[Kaleigh]

I've watched this thread develop, and for me, the progression of this very thread itself embodies much of what is broken here.

The general themes read something like:

"LESS FILLING'......."TASTES GREAT"............"NO, LESS FILLING"............."ABSOLUTELY NOT, TASTES GREAT".

"I know you are, but what am I?"

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, ........"

THIS is what's broken on Pricescope, and that breakage has led to the chicken/egg debate now. Are consumers leaving because there are less contributing trademembers? Are trademembers leaving because there are fewer interested consumers? Is EVERYONE leaving because of the incessant bickering?

There was not always agreement in days past; in fact, far from it. But for me, it did feel as though there was at least a willingness on the part of opposing contributors to consider whether there might be middle ground or, if not, TOLERANCE for divergent opinions and preferences. I don't see much of that these days; instead it's a slugfest to see which side can yell louder and despite that, neither side hears a word the other has said.

Todd's recap is an astonishingly accurate recounting of the path travelled to get here. Unless enough contributors are willing to set aside the axes they are grinding, I don't see a way to move in a different direction.

This!!!!!

 

[AnneinGA]

Allison D.

spot-on.

 

[psadmin]

Pricescope’s main goal is to provide information and resources so consumers can make an educated diamond purchases regardless of buying from B&M, Online, Pricescope Vendor Sponsor, best cut, worst cut, price, size, etc.  

They must choose which vendor to trust, what tools to use etc; whatever works for them and feel comfortable posting any question even if it was answered 100 times – because maybe the did not understand the answer.

Trade participation is a very important education source for enthusiast posters who help other consumers. From using a 10X loupe, to understanding ASET, Idealscope, HCA and the AGA charts. Trade people should feel comfortable to discuss new ideas, theories or even propose/make new standards in a professional and courteous manner.  It is important they politely correct consumers who have given incorrect information since consumers field most of the questions on PS.
The Golden Rule is NO self-promotion.  If consumers post a about a diamond and ten vendors jump on him and scare him from purchasing the diamond with ”I know…so buy from me”, then its like walking down the strip in Vegas with vendors snapping business cards.  
As a benefit for the trade-peoples time, they learn, they educate and earn respect and they get a link in their signature which can result in a sale and long term business.


After reading everyone suggestions I am making the following changes immediately.

--Trade may post images for educational purposes only and with no self-promotional tags or descriptions. Self-promotional intent includes phrases like “I just received this stone", “I always keep these in stock”, or "contact me if you're interested". Price tags or links to products is considered self-promotional. Photos may not be of items available for purchase and may not be posted just to show off or to influence a consumer's choice. Pricescope reserves the right to remove this privilege for any trade member who does not abide by these policies and also reserves the right to remove any photo or post that they deem in violation of these policies without question.

--We will be more vigilant of all posters violating etiquette. There will be time-outs for violations and banning for repeat offenders. Depending on the violation and the prior convictions, time-out could be 1 day to one month or more.

--We will continue to be more tolerant of new trade members as they learn the policies, and ask forum regulars to also help trade-newbies, but as with other PS members we will begin more regularly giving time outs and banning for repeat offenders. New trade members should fully read and understand our trade policies prior to posting on the forum. Spamming and shilling will not be tolerated, period.

--I will trial a diamond research forum where trade and consumers can discuss or clarify any ideas, theories, new standards, seek peer review of education materials and research papers/presentations, etc. etc. Professional and civil heated debate will be tolerated, but not personal attacks. Some consumer threads from RockyTalky may be migrated to this forum if it seems appropriate..

--As a trial non promotional educational video’s and links to videos may be posted in the new diamond research forum only. As always PS admin reserves the right to remove links or videos that they deem in violation of this policy.

--We understand that some trade may not want to represent the company they work for they do not have to identify the company in there signature, but they must take on the trade badge.

Moderating a forum as large as Pricescope is difficult and requires the help of all posters to keep it a pleasant place. PS admin reserves the right to remove any posts that are not in the spirit of Pricescope or that violate any of our PS policies. Administrator and moderator decisions are final, but we welcome emails for clarification or assistance.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I am still considering other suggestion as we move to improve Pricescope.

If you have any questions regarding the policies changes or need me to clarify any others please let me know.

 

[AGBF]

Thank you for initiating the discussion and making changes in an effort to improve Pricescope, Andrey. I will be very interested to see how the new changes play out.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Todd Gray]

keeping more sellers off PS.

I am glad they are deterred, sellers and educators are two different things.

As vendors (dealers, cutters, gemologists, any form of tradesperson) we've never been allowed to "sell" or directly represent any product or service on Price Scope, or any other forum that I've participated in, related to jewelry / diamonds where a consumer presence has existed. We've only been permitted to answer questions, provide insight, explain concepts... Rightly, as it should be. I imagine that there will always be a small group of people who will always try to push the envelope and find new and innovative ways to push their products and services, but for the most part, I believe that the tradespeople who frequent PS do their best to provide insight, education and answers without trying to "sell it" although it might seem otherwise for those of us who cater to very specific niche markets and do so because that is indeed our personal preference. I know that I can seem rather unrelenting when it comes to "cut quality" and "cut precision" but in reality, that is my personal preference and I like to share my passion with whoever will listen... And oh, for the record, I've seen some gorgeous 60/60 and other cut variations (!) but like anything else (including precise ideal cuts) every diamond needs to be considered individually on it's own merits... Some ideal cuts suck; some 60/60's suck; some are gorgeous; there is no magic bullet, just a realm of possibilities and a whole lot of things to take into consideration along the path to finding a diamond that appeals to the preference of each person.

I visited another forum once where vendors are openly allowed to solicit business and was rather shocked at how blatant some of the advances by the vendors were... In one instance, a consumer was being BLASTED by several vendors for purchasing her diamond from a vendor who is not a participant on the forum and when I say blasted, I do mean B!L!A!S!T!E!D! in such a manner that I was truly embarrassed to be "peers" with the vendors participating in the thread; I'm thankful to say that these vendors are not participants of PS, but in truth, they once were... And perhaps it is the underlying premise for this type of behavior which is realized by PS Admin and which we all hope to avoid ever occurring here on PS.

So I'm glad to see this discussion occurring and I'm happy to see a progressive, intelligent approach being taken (by all of us) in an effort to improve things here on PS.

 

[Blackpaw]

Im pretty late to this (have had computer issues for awhile) but i was hoping to put my perspective into the mix.

Ive been on Pricescope for a couple of years now and id guess that im a fairly typical consumer here - more educated (thanks to this forum) than the majority, but no expert by any means and in need of some guidance.

In the next few months ill finally be looking for that stone i joined Pricescope for - albeit a little late! For the record, i like ECs and have no interest whatsoever in rounds. So the 'debates' permeating the forum hold little interest for me. What does concern me, is that the new rules and the changing roles of a few former consumers has meant that there seems to be no expertise on this forum re step cuts – because what there is cant comment.

A recent thread asking for feedback on ECs received no helpful responses until the poster became upset that they had come to Pricescope for help (from a community that is supposed to help consumers) and got nothing. Even then I think the advice was ‘stepped back’ from what it might have been a few years ago.

So ive been on Pricescope for so long dreaming about that perfect stone, im not too far off getting it now, but there may not be anyone to help me? And do you know what - im not looking to become an ‘expert’ in all honesty, I don’t want to learn everything about how to interpret ASETs and Sarins of ECs – I want to be told what’s a great stone and what isn’t, which one has a dull spot and which doesn’t….I accept that there are some aspects of ECs that are personal preference (facet pattern, ratio etc) but there are other aspects id like the experts to weigh in on for me…and at the moment I don’t know if they would be able to.

Some suggestions to improve Pricescope from my POV:

1. Let vendors comment - they are the experts, and if im buying a stone i wont see until its a done deal, i need expertise. Customer service reviews from consumers is great to help me pick vendors to work with, but it wont help me differentiate two stones.
2. Fix the search tool. I cant find anything! no really! and that means i cant even find the threads that may have helped me learn enough to pick my own diamond, now that the experts cant comment.
3. Something i may consider is whether there is value in NOT deleting threads that turn acrimonious? i get frustrated that threads turn sour and get removed - they are then referred to in other parts of the forum, and i cant understand what is going on, or the nature of certain relationships between posters i cant fathom because i dont have the background. And i want to understand because i appreciate transparency. The place has become ridiculous with all the ‘unspoken code’ BS. I also tend to think that the behavior we have seen on this thread and on many others puts consumers off the trade members who perpetrate it - i know it does for me. So there is a built-in ‘punishment’ mechanism of this behavior already perhaps.

Anyway, im interested to see how it goes

 

[Todd Gray]

... For the record, i like ECs and have no interest whatsoever in rounds. So the 'debates' permeating the forum hold little interest for me... So ive been on Pricescope for so long dreaming about that perfect stone, im not too far off getting it now, but there may not be anyone to help me?

This brings up an interesting point Blackpaw and I hope you don't mind my editing your post to only highlight the specific portion of your post that I'd like to address regarding the apparent primary focus upon rounds...

I suppose that there is more discussion and focus upon rounds because it is the most popular diamond shape and represents the largest market share... However most of the vendors who contribute to PS are quite knowledgeable about other diamond shapes and should be able to provide insight when a thread is presented. If you don't get the response that you seek, consider contacting a few of the vendors privately and ask them to contribute to the thread or answer your questions directly via email.

I don't know how many PS vendors have emerald cut diamonds within their personal inventory to list on PS and/or who mirror the emerald cut diamonds listed within the multiple listing service subscribed to by the trade due to financial constraints involved with doing so; thus here again, you might need to ask the vendors directly to provide you with some options - I believe there is an option to request vendors to provide quotes through the PS diamond search feature (?)

For the record, my contribution "here" should not be considered "fishing for a sale" because in truth, the cutters who I associate with do not (currently) produce them and thus I have no way to source one at this time... So I'm not looking to sell an emerald cut diamond to Blackpaw; however I would be happy to provide advice for such a quest and to look over "the paper" for any emerald cut diamonds which might be of interest... and I'm sure that quite a few of my peers here on PS would love to be asked to find an emerald cut diamond on your behalf - but none of them can provide a quote within a thread, even if asked specifically to do so

 

[denverappraiser]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

 

[Karl_K]

Blackpaw,

The lack of non-trade step cut experts has been noted.
Because of that I have a little leeway with step cuts as long as an Octavia is not being considered because I do not sell to consumers.
What I can't do at this time is recommend specific vendors.
Criteria and analyzing data I can help you with.
If you have questions I can help with feel free to start a thread.

 

[Regular Guy]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

I happen to think this could be a great idea, as a "new tool," that could best be applied selectively, electively, by moderators...ideally...applied mechanically, so that a control on the back would control it, or if that were not possible, than when necessary, asking those the moderator directs, to use the honor system in sticking to this. But...ideally...not universally. Just on specification, to some, where needed. I like it.

Ira Z.

 

[psadmin]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

Hi Neil,

I am very intrigued by this idea.

Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[psadmin]

The new Diamond Research Forum is now up.

Here is a link to it https://www.pricescope.com/forum/diamond-research-f91/

 

[Texas Leaguer]

As a trade person and a relative newbie I have read this thread with fascination. I can relate to the “trepidation factor” that many have cited as a reason for reduced participation. There clearly are cases, evidenced in this very thread, of personal attacks that serve no constructive purpose and which tend to suppress the free exchange of ideas.

But overall, the passion and thoughtfulness of so many contributors in this thread proves that the heart of a vibrant community is still beating. Posters representing so many perspectives came in to contribute to this discussion: consumers, trades people, administrators, veterans, newbies, former posters turned lurkers, and participants who have experience on other forums, even moderators of other forums. What fertile ground this thread represents for PS administration- the consummate focus group!

It is often said that “democracy is messy business”. In general I tend to favor a system that is self- regulating. Less is more with regard to strict rules. It makes me think of the debates in the English Parliament- very freewheeling, often seemingly chaotic, and sometimes acrimonious. Having said that, I am a big believer in civility. I recognize that I am probably overly concerned with PCness, and to some extent I think it is more interesting when there are people on the other side of that spectrum in the atmosphere. There must be some discretion on the part of moderators to control posters engaging in dialogue that is destructive to the mission of the forum. Some interesting ideas have been proposed here to help penalize and reward posters for their behavior.

The administrators are wise to poll the community on these subjects and they are to be credited for taking swift actions deriving from this discussion. I have some ideas as to which ones I would favor, but I haven’t been around long enough to feel confident that my intuition is sound on these matters. But I have no doubt that many of the problems highlighted in this thread can be improved by adopting some of the ideas expressed by this group of posters.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Here's a thought....
Rocky Talky is a very large and active category which spans alot of issues.

What if a subset of categories existed under Rocky Talky?
For example: Techy Talky, Shopping for a Diamond, Help Me Compare, The Basics, Questions For Appraisers, etc. etc.

I'm sure that there are consumers (as mentioned by current posters) that are not really interested in every
technical term and the debates that follow.

It would possibly eliminate the chore of looking at each headline then finding a thread that really interests you.

Sometimes the title is vague and doesn't tell you what the thread is all about. For instance "I'm Angry, Help Me!?!"

I'm not trying to create a monster here, just trying to make navigation less difficult and to save a little time.

My 0.02 cents.

 

[Karl_K]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

That would be a problem for pro-sumers and trade members who are helping people not to mention those that are here for the social forums.
An active pro-sumer can and often does post 20+ helpful posts in an hour.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

That would be a problem for pro-sumers and trade members who are helping people not to mention those that are here for the social forums.
An active pro-sumer can and often does post 20+ helpful posts in an hour.

Neil suggested this could be a penalty applied to naughty people.

Anthoer suggestion that we have played with in the past is a rating system for help where any consumer (or maybe even anyone, or votes from a panel?) could vote on advice offered.
I would also like to see a front page section where any unregistered consumer can ask a question. If they wish to make a follow up 2nd question they must then register.
The question and first answer could reside on the front page, and after that they are all migrated to the Rocky talky (or moved to another forum if appropriate.

 

[denverappraiser]

Karl,

I didn't really thing it through all that much, it just came to mind, but it would be easy for the admin to make exceptions for people who consistently post helpful things. Perhaps it could be a function of the badges or possibly on an individual basis. The problem is of course, that if we were to identify posters who seem to be involved in the battles, they are always regulars and they are routinely people who post accurate, useful, and interesting advise in other circumstances. I wouldn't even blanketly say it's a problem. One poster disagreeing with another is NOT a bad thing and saccharine coating isn't always a good one. I'm not all that annoyed by the animosity and although I would prefer to see it toned down a bit, I'm mostly with the folks above who would like to see the rules become less restrictive, not more so. I would hate to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater to fix this at the risk of making it worse in other ways.

The very best posts are almost always carefully composed rather than blasted out as a quick thought and I can't see very many of these appearing within the span of, say, an hour within a particular thread. Perhaps that's the level to apply some sort of a limit.

 

[Karl_K]

Is limiting posts for a specific poster can be done it would be very interesting as a punishment.
Limit someone to 5 a day for say a week then it will be removed if they contribute in a positive manner during that time.
That is very interesting.
I have never heard of it being done but it has potential.

 

[Kaleigh]

Is limiting posts for a specific poster can be done it would be very interesting as a punishment.
Limit someone to 5 a day for say a week then it will be removed if they contribute in a positive manner during that time.
That is very interesting.
I have never heard of it being done but it has potential.

I like this.

Or on the flip side, you could post a list of repeat offenders.... Now that would get their attention..

Because it always seems to be the same people over and over... Rinse and repeat...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Is limiting posts for a specific poster can be done it would be very interesting as a punishment.
Limit someone to 5 a day for say a week then it will be removed if they contribute in a positive manner during that time.
That is very interesting.
I have never heard of it being done but it has potential.

I like this.

Or on the flip side, you could post a list of repeat offenders.... Now that would get their attention..

Because it always seems to be the same people over and over... Rinse and repeat...

Here here!!!!

 

[WinkHPD]

Joshua,

With every post this thread has begun to prove my point. Already we have several different opinions on generally what can be considered a fact and this is precisely why Andrey doesn't want to allow trademembers to comment on other vendor's products.
What I deem to be a fact is what others call an opinion.

I am not sure of your level of scientific expertise (please specify your background) but I would welcome it especially if you are informed or choose to be in future. Some trademembers have made a conscious choice not to be, or just can't be bothered putting in the effort.

I've been in academic research for 8 years have 3 peer reviewed articles where I am primary author in journals with reasonably good impact factors. I know academia, and I know the peer review process.

Here is Jose Sassian's work while at the University of Arizona through this peer reviewed article.

http://www.agslab.com/spie/spie_lo_res.pdf

Have you read it thorougly as to give an informed opinion? Can you seperate the facts from the opinions in the article?
Garry where is GIA-GTL's article(s) that disproved AGS's cut grading?
(Note that is a seperate issue and is a continually evolving application of the foundations laid out in the article above)

My original training was in Aerospace, specifically supersonic and hypersonic fluid flow in aerospace vehicles. Naturally my recent training is in gemology.

Like I said, I'm a fan of ASET, but it isn't the end all. I've been researching it for awhile and I am very interested in learning more about its related research moving forward. However, I still stand behind that its research can not be dictated as fact, especially to customers. I feel that's misleading. Remember AGS has a vested interest in that particular form of analysis, as it's used in their product. Just as in GIA has a vested interest in Facetware.

As for fact and opinion, I feel that all diamond analysis breaks down into what someone's opinion dictates as a 'best cut' based on their personal objectivity, or in most cases a scientific sample of viewers. All those being opinions. Given that, gemstone analysis is inherently an opinion.

It's a great theory and a great way to break it down. It's makes it easy to discard obviously bad cuts. It doesn't adequately answer for me what the 'best' or 'ideal' cut in a diamond may be, as that is very subjective depending on the viewer. It's that subjectivity I think that causes the conflict. I always feel the best decisions in gem selection are made viewing the gem yourself.

--Joshua

Okay, I am several pages from the end of this discussion and probably should not comment until I have read it all, but there are only so many hours in the day, and mine are precious, so I will risk it.

I am not a scientist, and I do not profess to be one, but I will say this. When I sit down with a client and show them four to five stones on a slotted tray, all at once and without telling them anything about the stones, way more than 90% of the time they will select the two or three stones that have the best balanced appearanc in the ASET over other stones. Only once did I ever have any one select the "shallow limpid" stone that was spoken about in a previous post. The buyer's comment, and this is as close to a quote as I can remember, "That is one of the ugliest diamonds I have ever seen, but it is the cheapest and that is what I can afford. I will buy this piece of (expletive deleted) now and trade it up when I can. (He did too, about ten years later he bought a beautiful 2ct, when I asked him if he wanted to turn her original ring into a pendant he just laughed and said that both he and his wife hated this diamond and only bought it because it was dirt cheap because it was so ugly.)

As far as I am concerned, the ASET is one of the best tools since the bread slicer because it makes it so easy to explain light return to my clients. Nor more dozing off while I try to explain refractive index and angles and dangles to people who just want to buy a pretty diamond. (Heck, half the time I would have ME dozing off, this is not exactly exciting conversational fare for the average person.)

Since I worked in the retail arena for more than thirty years I have a lot of anecdotal evidence so I will say this. Yes, it is better to see the stones in person, but when that is not possible, it is better to be working with someone who knows what he is talking about and how to explain it and how to show it to you in pictures than it is to work with someone who basically says, "Hey trust me, I know what I am doing."

Since my clientele pretty much agreed with me in real life, prior to being told which diamonds were which, I believe, anecdotally, that my opinions and biases are pretty much in accord with what my clients are telling me, both before and after I show them why they liked what they liked.

This means that whether scientific or not, I am answering their needs and their questions. And that is plenty scientific for me.

Wink

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Im pretty late to this (have had computer issues for awhile) but i was hoping to put my perspective into the mix.

Ive been on Pricescope for a couple of years now and id guess that im a fairly typical consumer here - more educated (thanks to this forum) than the majority, but no expert by any means and in need of some guidance.

In the next few months ill finally be looking for that stone i joined Pricescope for - albeit a little late! For the record, i like ECs and have no interest whatsoever in rounds. So the 'debates' permeating the forum hold little interest for me. What does concern me, is that the new rules and the changing roles of a few former consumers has meant that there seems to be no expertise on this forum re step cuts – because what there is cant comment.

A recent thread asking for feedback on ECs received no helpful responses until the poster became upset that they had come to Pricescope for help (from a community that is supposed to help consumers) and got nothing. Even then I think the advice was ‘stepped back’ from what it might have been a few years ago.

So ive been on Pricescope for so long dreaming about that perfect stone, im not too far off getting it now, but there may not be anyone to help me? And do you know what - im not looking to become an ‘expert’ in all honesty, I don’t want to learn everything about how to interpret ASETs and Sarins of ECs – I want to be told what’s a great stone and what isn’t, which one has a dull spot and which doesn’t….I accept that there are some aspects of ECs that are personal preference (facet pattern, ratio etc) but there are other aspects id like the experts to weigh in on for me…and at the moment I don’t know if they would be able to.

Some suggestions to improve Pricescope from my POV:

1. Let vendors comment - they are the experts, and if im buying a stone i wont see until its a done deal, i need expertise. Customer service reviews from consumers is great to help me pick vendors to work with, but it wont help me differentiate two stones.
2. Fix the search tool. I cant find anything! no really! and that means i cant even find the threads that may have helped me learn enough to pick my own diamond, now that the experts cant comment.
3. Something i may consider is whether there is value in NOT deleting threads that turn acrimonious? i get frustrated that threads turn sour and get removed - they are then referred to in other parts of the forum, and i cant understand what is going on, or the nature of certain relationships between posters i cant fathom because i dont have the background. And i want to understand because i appreciate transparency. The place has become ridiculous with all the ‘unspoken code’ BS. I also tend to think that the behavior we have seen on this thread and on many others puts consumers off the trade members who perpetrate it - i know it does for me. So there is a built-in ‘punishment’ mechanism of this behavior already perhaps.

Anyway, im interested to see how it goes

This is exactly how i feel, except i am not in the market for a EC in the near future.

 

[perry]

Andrey:

Now that I have read the entire thread... as painful as that was.

There are a lot of very useful comments by other people - and I could spend an hour or so cutting and pasting clips and recognizing everyone; or I can just say: Thanks Everyone (and most of them know me - although some of the newcomers might not).

I agree there is a problem - and I am not sure that all of your changes will solve it.

The problem is also not just on the Vendor side. I long ago moved from active participation in RT and moved into Diamond Hangout and Around the World (with a few forays into other forums). I generally don't post much anymore - but am still held by the great past.

The biggest problem that I see is that there are too many rules and not enough openness; and the forum now tolerates personal attacks.

Around the World essentially died, in my opinion, when more rules were implemented on what could be discussed instead of just banning the people who couldn't handle heated civil debate.

There are bad vendors who abuse things - and should be tossed out; and there are bad non-vendors who should be tossed out.

In my opinion if you study the threads that seem to reduce themselves into endless debates you will see that these usually involve the same people. It is the tolerance of those people creating these endless debates by the forum administration which has killed a lot of what PS used to be about.

We used to have some very heated strong opinionated debates on a variety of subjects (and I participated in some of those) - and could do so without any personal attacks and bickering. Now the rules seem to prevent that kind of debate - but allow endless bickering and personal attacks.

In summary: Loosen up the rules on the vendors and on the non-vendors (I think you could cut the number of rules you have in half); establish levels of discipline, and kick out people (vendor and non-vendor) who are an overall negative influence or insist on crossing the line (Warnings are appropriate - and even I have received a few over the years). I note that back in the PM days - that when that was ended a number of "long established and respected" non-vendor people where banned - and PS recovered from that nicely.

Perry

 

[Maisie]

A very dear friend of mine was removed from ps for far less than others get away with on a regular basis. There needs to be one rule for all. If you flout the rules you should be removed.

 

[WinkHPD]

Today's vendor rules penalize everyone for the transgressions of a few, but they make moderation easier.
Treating all vendors equally may seem PC, but it is wrong IMHO and results in the problem that is the topic of this thread.
Vendors are not equal, some will behave well, some won't.

If there were only one general vendor rule like, "Don't promote your own business excessively" that would let the vendors out of jail but give the moderators more work.
I'd also publish that moderator's calls are final, and public discussions of moderator decisions are not permitted.

This will only work if the mods can do a delicate balancing act.
They have to allow X but forbid Y.
Of course the vendor that did Y will cry foul, not fair. Whaaaaaa!
They'll complain that Vendor X got do X etc.
That's when the mod's backbone comes in and the need to keep the eye on the goal and NOT TRY TO KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY.
They also many need more mods to handle the larger workload.

Some vendors will align themselves with PS goals, but some will not, so don't treat them all equally; treat the better-behaving ones better.
Favoritism is a good thing when you are favoring those who behave.

I think admin has to decide between doing what is best overall for the mission of PS or doing what is easiest for moderators

Have you ever tried to moderate a board before?

Favoritism is a BAD thing. Trust me. What you say here goes against everything that a good moderator will do.

I've had to moderate friends and let me tell you that is really hard. I had one friend constantly causing trouble and kept thinking they could get away with things because I was a friend and most of the time they were on my good side.

They are no longer a friend because they expected me to side with them. They expected favoritism.

Honestly it sounds like you hope certain vendors will get preferential treatment and others won't. Sorry Kenny I've watched you far too long not to read into things.

Favoritism is bad and makes a whole board fail. I've seen it. So unless you've ever moderated or been an admin on a forum, I wouldn't ever say a thing like that ever. Favoritism leaves only the "chosen ones" to run and it won't matter what else anyone has to say.
I cannot say what should or should not be done on this forum, because I do not see what goes on behind the scenes. I have seen some pretty nasty comments stay which makes me wonder if this place is heavily moderated or not. But knowing how tough it is to moderate I have no clue the percentage of bad stuff gets found and removed. I know many times the comments will stay because no one reports it. At least from my experience I can say that.

Back to my reading this thread and still responding LONG before having read everything...

If anyone doubts the comment highlighted in red, you need only look at the once vibrant Diamond Talk forum. The owner got quite enamored with two or three people, threw most of us vendors out and within a short period of time the forum became so listless and apathetic that is no longer updated at all anymore. I am sure there is more to it than that, but that is what seemed to have happened to those of us on the outside who no longer even bother to look into what was once a vibrant forum.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

I have questions on another (related) tangent; in terms of professional/consumer relations - and motives.

Professionals have a clear affiliation listed in their signatures. In some ways that puts potential agenda or bias right out there for everyone to see. Consumers have no affiliation listed and it's assumed that they are motivated by the joy of helping others. In most cases I am sure that's true, but what happens when someone's desire for reputability/status gets in the way of clear communication?

Long ago I posted on a routine topic and received an irate email from an active (and very prominent) consumer poster. She was upset with what she perceived as public correction and said that I was undermining her reputation. She requested that I email her privately in the future before posting "against her." That was never my intent of course, but I soon realized her desire to be perceived as an expert was more important to her than providing accurate information. That was years ago, all healed now.

Still, from time to time I read posts where some of the advice given (by very strong posters) isn't quite accurate, or current, or complete. Nobody likes to have their expertise challenged so in many cases I wait for info to be added or corrected. In cases where I do decide to make an addition or clarification I try to step lightly... Still, no one can guarantee what the reaction will be.

My questions: For consumer enthusiasts still reading this thread - Do you mind having your advice clarified or updated? Do those of you with veteran status feel resentment if a trade member enters a thread with different or conflicting information? Imagine a correction being given by a trade member... now imagine the same correction made by a fellow consumer poster... Is there a difference in how you feel about who is making the correction?

There is no doubt that professionals contributing here get good feelings from helping - as well as potentially attracting business.
I think it's also fair to say consumers contributing here get good feelings from helping - as well as enjoying a measure of reputability and even status. Are those ends at odds sometimes?

Wow! Well said John. There have been times when I have contacted clients of mine to gently encourage them to reread the information that they are using as a basis for a statement that I felt was at odds with the original information that they were quoting. Most appreciated the input, but some definitely did not.

Much of the information that is given here is spot on, but there will always be disagreements over the details, and that is what makes things interesting. Some of those disagreements will be based on facts, and some on opinions, and some just over personal choices as to what is good or bad.

You ask a great question, I look forward to reading what some have responded to it.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

I'm purely a consumer (and not much of one, to boot), but after reading this thread I'm left to wonder - what exactly are members of the trade supposed to participate about? Does PS want them to help consumers find diamonds they love? To answer general questions for consumers about diamonds without specific reference to purchasing stones? To discuss and advance diamond education on a higher, non-consumer level?

This isn't clear to me. I've only been a member of the site for a little over a year (plus I found it not because of an interest in diamonds but via searching about being anxious for my boyfriend to propose!) so I don't know much about these great debates in the mythical past. I do think it is important to clarify the ultimate goal, though, to determine what steps could/should be taken to make that happen.

The ideal situation is that trade members/experts provide education and support to consumers and pro-sumers who then help other consumers.The goal is not and never has been experts answering all the questions. That is actually counterproductive.

One of the good things that I have noticed over the years is that questions that we professionals once answered are now routinely answered by prosumers and even other consumers who have been here for a while. This indicates that the educational value of Pricescope is huge!

One of the bad things, is that sometimes these same consumers will profess a stone to be just fine or looking good when we would love to be able to point out the little things that make it not as good as it could be. To me, this is an important crux of the discussion at hand. Just because I an identify the stone as being from this vendor or that, I am no longer allowed to say the little things that are wrong, especially after it has just been professed to be fine. This indicates that the educational value of Pricescope is not as huge as one would hope.

Wink

 

[yssie]

As a consumer, I think one of the most disturbing issues this thread has brought to light is that misinformation is apparently being allowed to persist and propagate for fear of offending the originator.

What a terrible thing this is - the premise of PS is to promote education in its many forms, ideas, and methods...

Defining misinformation as stated fact that can be repudiated with the support of logic, scientific fact, and/or tradespeople's personal experiences that offer perspective that a consumer simply do not have the means to gain-I will say that I for one am here to learn, and am more than anything else interested in seeing my statements either validated or challenged (with explanation or a link to more information) and I must believe I share this stance with the majority of longterm RT posters.

 

[Laila619]

A posting limit would decrease participation in general on Pricescope. Don't we want to avoid this?