Trade Participation on Pricescope

[WinkHPD]

I disagree Karl,
An important PS feature is that consumers get educated and are able to help newbies overcome their fears of diamond buying.
Few will likely read pure techy forums, and the experts might live there never hlping consmers.
I think Ella that you maybe did not get this either from something you mentioned in an earlier post - that is why I like the idea of John's - rename a thread after the newbie has been helped - its a valuable threadjack!

Those consumers who are interested in learning would hang out there then take that knowledge to RT.

Karl,

I am going to side with Garry on this one. Many of us are simply too busy to contribute the same material to two places. I have never seen a sub forum actually do well in numbers of either contributors or posts. Pricescope has tried a vendors only for vendors subforum but it was never well populated and the number of posts were miniscule.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

While I agree that improvement in search functionality is a good thing- I also believe that a new discussion- even on an oft discussed issue, as opposed to simply referring people to a previous thread, is more attractive to some consumers.
It also keeps the forum more lively with new discussion.

For example- I recently bought a new car, and of course found the appropriate forum to ask some questions in my shopping- and also after I'd gotten it.
When I asked something that had been asked many times before, the first response was to send me to another thread.
I very much more appreciated when my question was answered specifically- which it subsequently was.

I am in complete concordance with this.

I never take the time to go read a previous thread when a question is asked and I suspect that many of the people such a reference is intended to help do not either, especially if the thread is more than one page long. I think reanswering the question is a very positive thing as while we have a large number of regular readers and posters, one of the strengths of Pricescope is that it is a place were thousands of new people come to visit each week.

Yes, the same question may have been asked and answered a thousand times, but not for the person who is asking it today. And with the constant changes in the knowledge base the answer today may be different than the one that was gospel just a short time ago.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

It's probably not a well known fact for newer members to the forum, but Price Scope was more or less launched when most of us old guys got kicked off of another forum for challenging the censorship of my old friend Rhino of GOG; he'd been kicked off of the forum for "self-promotion" in the form of writing a one sentence update along the lines of "I realize that there are several threads which are directed at me which require a response; the East Coast is in the middle of a blizzard right now and my access to the internet is limited; I'll respond to everything in due time when regular access to the internet (and power) is restored." (paraphrasing)

As I recall, Jonathan never got that chance... He was kicked off the forum for self-promotion, for starting a thread that was all about him. I initiated a thread that had something to do with censorship and tyranny, I was immediately kicked off the forum. I forget who followed next, but it became a kind of honor to speak up and get knocked off the forum. And we all ended up here on PS, by invitation and with the promise of not having to worry about such things in the future.

Those were the Glory Days of PS; there were some exceptional conversations (heated debates) and it was all about the learning curve and advancement of cutting technology. We didn't all agree, far from it, but that was part of the fun. We would vehemently defend our positions and then follow it up with a private phone call or an email to the person we were challenging and discuss the matter in-depth like a bunch of (drunk) scholars debating quantum physics or something like that... and we would meet up at trade shows and laugh about how much fun we were having and how much we were learning from each other, because you see, before the magic of the forums, we didn't have a place to get together and discuss our beliefs and ideas... and then came "the rules" and I suppose that they came for a reason, but "the rules" have made the playground a less interesting place to visit, I find it difficult to "be myself" and express myself freely, to think out loud, when there is the fear that the thought police will tap me on the head and say don't do that again... but I must also say that the current PS admin, et al, does so in a much better manner than the final attempts of the original PS admin - at the end, I began to wonder whether they were losing touch, or possibly if they had forgotten what the original premise of PS had been... Perhaps in much the same way the reflection of our country is but a glimmer of the original (or at least reported) premise of this great nation? Is it the laws that have messed up our nation? Or is the lawyers? The politicians (who are lawyers)? Is there even a difference? There weren't many rules (laws) to follow when PS was new, but then again, there were fewer members and the problems seemed to resolve themselves... Maybe all we need is a bit more rope Andrey

P.S. in the spirit of what I think "this" is all about... I wrote this; I didn't review it; I truly enjoyed doing so; it feels like "the old days" and yet there is this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that is screaming "don't hit submit, you fool, you're not being PC and somebody is going to be offended". Oh hell, I just don't care. Oh yea, that feels good. I think I'll call Wink and tell him so... Then I'll call John P. and email Paul, then I'm going to call Jon over at GOG and say "that felt good" and maybe I'll call one or two of "the others" who don't post anymore and they'll say "you know Todd, that was just dumb". YEA

LOL! I am still waiting for my call!

And next year you better come share a room with me at Vegas, it has been too long since you have been there!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Pricescope’s main goal is to provide information and resources so consumers can make an educated diamond purchases regardless of buying from B&M, Online, Pricescope Vendor Sponsor, best cut, worst cut, price, size, etc.  

They must choose which vendor to trust, what tools to use etc; whatever works for them and feel comfortable posting any question even if it was answered 100 times – because maybe the did not understand the answer.

Trade participation is a very important education source for enthusiast posters who help other consumers. From using a 10X loupe, to understanding ASET, Idealscope, HCA and the AGA charts. Trade people should feel comfortable to discuss new ideas, theories or even propose/make new standards in a professional and courteous manner.  It is important they politely correct consumers who have given incorrect information since consumers field most of the questions on PS.
The Golden Rule is NO self-promotion.  If consumers post a about a diamond and ten vendors jump on him and scare him from purchasing the diamond with ”I know…so buy from me”, then its like walking down the strip in Vegas with vendors snapping business cards.  
As a benefit for the trade-peoples time, they learn, they educate and earn respect and they get a link in their signature which can result in a sale and long term business.


After reading everyone suggestions I am making the following changes immediately.

--Trade may post images for educational purposes only and with no self-promotional tags or descriptions. Self-promotional intent includes phrases like “I just received this stone", “I always keep these in stock”, or "contact me if you're interested". Price tags or links to products is considered self-promotional. Photos may not be of items available for purchase and may not be posted just to show off or to influence a consumer's choice. Pricescope reserves the right to remove this privilege for any trade member who does not abide by these policies and also reserves the right to remove any photo or post that they deem in violation of these policies without question.

--We will be more vigilant of all posters violating etiquette. There will be time-outs for violations and banning for repeat offenders. Depending on the violation and the prior convictions, time-out could be 1 day to one month or more.

--We will continue to be more tolerant of new trade members as they learn the policies, and ask forum regulars to also help trade-newbies, but as with other PS members we will begin more regularly giving time outs and banning for repeat offenders. New trade members should fully read and understand our trade policies prior to posting on the forum. Spamming and shilling will not be tolerated, period.

--I will trial a diamond research forum where trade and consumers can discuss or clarify any ideas, theories, new standards, seek peer review of education materials and research papers/presentations, etc. etc. Professional and civil heated debate will be tolerated, but not personal attacks. Some consumer threads from RockyTalky may be migrated to this forum if it seems appropriate..

--As a trial non promotional educational video’s and links to videos may be posted in the new diamond research forum only. As always PS admin reserves the right to remove links or videos that they deem in violation of this policy.

--We understand that some trade may not want to represent the company they work for they do not have to identify the company in there signature, but they must take on the trade badge.

Moderating a forum as large as Pricescope is difficult and requires the help of all posters to keep it a pleasant place. PS admin reserves the right to remove any posts that are not in the spirit of Pricescope or that violate any of our PS policies. Administrator and moderator decisions are final, but we welcome emails for clarification or assistance.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I am still considering other suggestion as we move to improve Pricescope.

If you have any questions regarding the policies changes or need me to clarify any others please let me know.

Hurrah! I have been reading this thread off and on for several days and much of what I was going to suggest just became part of the new reality! Thank you!

Oh, and did I say, THANK YOU!?

I still have a page to go, but this one post was well worth the slogging.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

Hi Neil,

I am very intrigued by this idea.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Respectfully to my friend Neil I must disagree with this idea. While I rarely post more than ten posts a day currently, there were many many days in the past when I did. When a great discussion is going back and forth the posts come quickly and fast and so long as they are on topic and respectful I think it would be a shame to limit them.

I do think that swift and judicious axing of antagonistic posts, any number of which can unfortunately be seen in this thread, and appropriate administrative actions taken with those making the posts could go miles and miles in restoring the free flow of information for which Pricescope has long been known. For those acting like trolls, treat them like trolls, quickly and with quickly ascending levels of harshness.

I have seen administrative penalties work wonders with some posters, and some have just disappeared when they were not willing to change.

Like Todd, I have had my hand slapped more than once, and while I hope never to have it slapped again, I will have no fear when I hit the submitt button in a few minutes. I know I am working with people who I know and respect and they know and respect me, that is what makes this such a great place, and while we are currently having a "cold", I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that we shall soon recover and be once again a vibrant and healthy community where all comers are welcome so long as they treat others with the respect that they wish to be treated with.

I love this place and I have so many friends and acquaintences here that I have a serious personal interest in it continuing to be a healthy community. Granted, I am a vendor and I sell here, but I also come here because it is fun and entertaining to be here. I could make a lot more money by spending my time in other ways, but none of them are as much fun, and as a grand father of three young and enjoyable grand children, I would rather make a little less and have the time to play with them weekly.

Please oh please, do not make it impossible for me to make eleven posts if that is what it takes for me to say what I think needs to be said.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Now that I have read the thread I will venture forth with my suggestions.

Most have already been promulgated with the allowance that we can again post pictures, within limits. You do not say with or without logos on them, so I am going to guess without, although I think it might be a good thing to allow them for when the photos are "borrowed" by others. I am excited to go post a short video in the new forum on how to use a loupe.

I think one of the things that I perceive of as most necessary, sadly, is the ability of the moderators to take swift and if necessary harsh actions on personal attacks. Disagreements need to be allowed to happen, yet need to remain civil. If not, those making the personal attacks need to have their posts pulled unceremoniously and quickly. Bench the posters quickly too, and if necessary bid them adieu.

Back when KarlK was Strmrdr he and I used to have epic disagreements as to what was proper and not, yet we remained civil and friends. I see no reason why this can not still be, in fact I think it extremely necessary for the forum to prosper.

I think it would be a good thing if I can both disagree with Jonathon and still say something nice about him from time to time. I know it could look like we were shilling for one another at times, but anyone who knows either of us or who has read more than a few threads would know we both like one another and compete with one another like puppies looking to keep the other one away from mama at feeding time. There are several vendors here that I could say the same kinds of things about.

I think that it would be better if consumers know that we like and respect one another at the same time we compete and as anyone who has ever read one of John Pollard's "Reports From Vegas" threads knows, it is obvious that we all spend a great deal of time hanging around together at the Trade Shows.

The other thing that I think would be beneficial, and I do not know how you can do this, is to encourage some of your listing vendors to actually contribute, rather than to just list and sell. I have no idea how you can do this from your hot seat Andrey, but it would probably be a true benefit to both you, the forum, and to them if you were successful in doing it.

Thank you for starting this thread, I apologize for coming so late to the party, but what a party it has been. I appreciate the changes that you have made and those that you will yet make, and I look forward to us all getting over this "cold".

Wink

 

[Lee Little]

I am neither a prosumer nor a trade person, but I have a comment.

In my experience, when you take away the benefits of the educated from sharing their knowledge, they tend to share less, not because they don't want to share, but because their time is better used elsewhere.

I participate in another forum (totally different industry) where I am an expert. It used to be that I could put my contact information and point out when others who posted said something inaccurate or incorrectly, but the admins tightened the rules so I could do neither then wondered why I stopped contributing. At the end of the day, I still have a business to run, and I have to choose where I can market myself and my services to the best of my ability. When I can't even tell someone how to get in contact with me what's the point? I used to get business because people read my comments and realized I knew what I was talking about and therefore would get in touch with me. It was a revenue stream - not huge, but something in return for my time. It is frustrating to continually be asked to contribute when the return on investment is the warm happy feeling of helping someone. I love that feeling, and it doesn't pay my overhead.

Now on to the interplay between vendors - let's take buying a car.

If I go to a Toyota dealership, I expect to be told why a Toyota is better than a Ford. I expect to be able to judge the salesperson's knowledge myself (because I should also be educated) and decide whether I want to buy the Toyota and work with that salesperson. If the salesperson degrades another brand, or speaks specifically about another salesperson in a negative manner, then it puts a bad taste in my mouth and I walk away. I have done it before.

If a trade person says, "I don't like that diamond because X, Y and Z", then isn't that OK? Obviously if they say "I don't like that diamond because that vendor is an idiot" it's completely different.

We're all adults here. It took me a couple of weeks to figure out who was who and which business belonged to whom and more specifically to decide who I wouldn't want to do business with based on their postings. I love when I can talk to two different people about two products and have them tell me which is better and why. As long as it is done in a professional manner (and if it's not then they potentially lose business), why can't they comment?

Hi Folks,
I thought that Anne's opinion and experience with other forums was very similar to mine so I felt it was worth re-posting. Actually lots of the comments were the same as my opinion when it came to loosening up.
I am glad to see this discussion as I have always felt PS was way too full of self-defeating rules. Obviously we all need rules that are the same as common sense such as 'be polite' etc. In a truly open forum members will almost always keep each other in line, not rules and moderators. The moderators step in when things get ugly.
I got a couple of slaps when I posted requested information about another vendors stone even though it was just that and had nothing to do with self promoting anymore than this post does. All of my post are self promoting on every forum I post on as I use my real name everywhere. I also post my email in public on ebay and in several forums but here they 'protect' me by not allowing it, LOL. Another rule PS has that nobody else does.
Sometimes I see a request in a post that is a bit sensitive and though I want to comment to benefit the member I realize I could also offend or hurt another member or even create a security risk, (oddly enough, some scientific info related to gemstones can also be used by terrorist and I have been instructed not to publicize it) so normally I would send a private message but not here! No private messages seems self-defeating because then, rather than sharing the sensitive information, I will simply have to with hold it and watch the question go unanswered or incorrectly answered.
I read 3 pages of this thread and would have liked to read the entire thing before posting but as has been said, most trades people do not have much time for this forum. Nothing personal, we are just busy. I read a good article on how a trade person should prepare for being a participant on PS which recommended reading for several full days, Rocky Talky postings. LOL, I have never read one post in Rocky Talky because the title turned me off, diamonds are not rocks! But that is another subject.
I would love to see all the rules other than common sense rules abolished. Freedom will create much more lively and honest debates, thus promoting better education. If someone gets out of hand then that is their problem as all will see. This forum is hardly made up of little lamb consumers needing protection from the sly wolf vendors. Folks here are quite well educated and can handle themselves without all the 'protection' of strict rules.
Perhaps this forum has already improved as I know that in the past I would have never posted this for fear of being banned. Best regards, Lee

 

[Lee Little]

Another rule that threw me for a loop was that we were not allowed to post any pictures of items for sale when I just had finally got my avatar picture to load and it was technically for sale. So I went back in and changed it to one that was already sold but it is about a week later and it has not loaded yet, now sure why it takes so long to appear.
I did not tell anybody here that the old avatar picture was an item for sale or mention a price or even the site it was listed on but it was listed on an online site so was in violation of the strict rules, I think. Best regards, Lee

 

[Maisie]

Maybe there needs to be more than just a couple of moderators on PS. That way problems and bad behaviour can be monitored and dealt with more quickly.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

While you probably did not think this through entirely, Neil, I really like the idea. Not for the purpose of a penalty, but let me first give my ideas about a general rule of say maximum 10 posts/day for every poster.

For PS as a business, I think that it is important to get good content on the forums. In that way, a limit on the number of posts does not sound like a good idea. But I wonder if that is really the case.

At the same time, we are now in a 12-page-thread where the initial problem launched is the reducing number of trade-posts. Does this mean that for PS as a business the content of the posts is possibly more important than the actual number of posts? I do not want to imply at all that a consumer's post is less in quality than a trade-post (far from that).

As I may have said in previous posts, I think that when looking at PS and its forums as a community, we also need to consider certain positions and make sure that the community is welcoming to newcomers, be they tradespeople or consumers. One of the big hurdles in the PS-community might well be that the community is somehow set in its ways, and that there is a natural movement towards the status-quo. In Rocky-Talky, the forum that I follow most, this translates into about 80% of the posts coming from a limited number of posters.

Your suggestion to limit the daily number of posts might well bring a lot of fresh air into our community. While it would in some ways limit the omni-presence of certain posters, it would also induce these specific posters to choose their posts more carefully and probably improve the quality of their posts.

At the same time, it will probably automatically reduce the number of dogfights and the possibility to threadjack.

Finally, it would leave more room open for consumers and trade-people who are now posting less or not at all. It might well be compared to an economy, where anti-monopolistic measures exist in order to strengthen the fabric of the entire economy. Maybe the same principle applies here.

Live long,

 

[Blackpaw]

... For the record, i like ECs and have no interest whatsoever in rounds. So the 'debates' permeating the forum hold little interest for me... So ive been on Pricescope for so long dreaming about that perfect stone, im not too far off getting it now, but there may not be anyone to help me?

This brings up an interesting point Blackpaw and I hope you don't mind my editing your post to only highlight the specific portion of your post that I'd like to address regarding the apparent primary focus upon rounds...

I suppose that there is more discussion and focus upon rounds because it is the most popular diamond shape and represents the largest market share... However most of the vendors who contribute to PS are quite knowledgeable about other diamond shapes and should be able to provide insight when a thread is presented. If you don't get the response that you seek, consider contacting a few of the vendors privately and ask them to contribute to the thread or answer your questions directly via email.

I don't know how many PS vendors have emerald cut diamonds within their personal inventory to list on PS and/or who mirror the emerald cut diamonds listed within the multiple listing service subscribed to by the trade due to financial constraints involved with doing so; thus here again, you might need to ask the vendors directly to provide you with some options - I believe there is an option to request vendors to provide quotes through the PS diamond search feature (?)

For the record, my contribution "here" should not be considered "fishing for a sale" because in truth, the cutters who I associate with do not (currently) produce them and thus I have no way to source one at this time... So I'm not looking to sell an emerald cut diamond to Blackpaw; however I would be happy to provide advice for such a quest and to look over "the paper" for any emerald cut diamonds which might be of interest... and I'm sure that quite a few of my peers here on PS would love to be asked to find an emerald cut diamond on your behalf - but none of them can provide a quote within a thread, even if asked specifically to do so

Todd, thanks for your response, I think you’ve hit on something. With the lack of expertise on step-cuts (no reflection on anyone, they’re just not popular enough!), perhaps the rules on trade participation need to be blurred, and as you say, there are a number of knowledgeable vendors on the forum that don’t even deal in ECs.

Karl, I appreciate your willingness (and ability!) to help, I’ll be looking properly for the stone in Jan/Feb and will hunt you down for advice Its no problem to figure out the vendors that typically deal in ECs, there are plenty of cust serv review threads, its more the stone itself that it seems difficult to get any expert opinions on!

I do believe that consumers could benefit from more relaxed policies on trade members commenting on stones, even though this would mean heavier moderation is required. I guess the problem is not so apparent with RBs because so many pricescope members are quite knowledgeable…

 

[Lynn B]

I've been a PS member for over 6 years now, have several KILLER stones as testimony , and have had some GREAT times here. I used to read and post like a wild woman... just could hardly get enough PS. Please let me say a sincere, heartfelt "thank you" for that.

But... I've been MIA recently -- not posting and honestly, not even lurking. Why? Well... this is gonna be kinda hard to say. I'm probably gonna be afraid to hit the "submit" button when it's done, too. But with all due respect and in the spirit of goodwill, I will speak my mind here, freely and I hope without retribution.

I must ditto what Alj (Allison D) said earlier. Bingo. She hit the nail on the head for me, too. Add to that my own personal opinions of simply. too. many. rules.

I think the many vendor rules made it very hard for them to add much that was meaningful to the forums, and I am glad that some of these rules have been lightened up. Thank you! Without the invaluable input our vendors provide, PS is pretty much just like a million other websites on the internet where people who share a common interest gather to look and say, "Oooh, nice!"

Other rules seem taxing and oppressive to me, too. No vendor logos on pictures in SMTB? Yet vendors can be freely mentioned in the narrative right underneath? Honestly, that just seems inconsistent (and arbitrary) to me.

Then there are those strict, enforced rules regarding no identifying information by posters in either their posts OR their profiles. Really???! I don't know how else to say this... but are we not all adults here?! We do not need PS to police us. If we wish to post our e-mail address or a blog link, so what?! I simply cannot understand the so-called issues with "security" and "privacy". PS does not have to accept any responsibility for any (voluntary) info shared on these forums by posters. So why the seeming "secrecy"?

No PMs? See above. Also, when PS 2.0 was in the works, a discussion was held regarding this. Several posters adamantly opposed PMs, claiming that these would cut down the traffic on the forums as chatting and discussions went "private". Well, guess what? Traffic on the forums is way down, and it ain't because of PMs.

So many other rules... can't discuss this, or that, or this, or that... but it's pretty hard to make a rule against general bad manners and snarkiness and those, unfortunately, are rampant. And, honestly, it's such a turn-off. I used to come here to have fun, to play, to laugh, to learn... it's not like that anymore. It's stressful now, and even depressing at times, when thread after thread evolve into pettiness and hypersensitivity.

My humble suggestion? Make some big, sweeping changes and see what happens. If, after a reasonable period of time, it doesn't work, then change it back. Nothing has to be forever. But what is that old saying... "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"?

I realize that the title of this thread is "Trade Participation on PS" and I know that in this post I have discussed other issues, too. But IMHO, like the posters before me who have also done so, it appears to be significant that the general atmosphere of PS (of which the "general poster" will always be the majority) sets the tone for vendor participation. Vendors will either WANT to use their limited, valuable time to contribute to the forum, or they won't... and a large part of their reasons why -- or why not -- will be because of what else is happening here.

OK...
*Deep breath*... clicking "submit" now!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

A random idea:

How about if you limit the number of posts a particular party can put up per day? Say 5 – 10 per day? The majority of the incivility seems to be coming from regulars and it tends to appear in threads that devolve into a rapid back and forth argument where a flood of posts from a few people come along rather quickly. If there’s some sort of a limit to how many posts, this makes the post a limited resource to the poster and it may make people, both trade and consumer, less inclined to waste one with an unproductive of message.

While you probably did not think this through entirely, Neil, I really like the idea. Not for the purpose of a penalty, but let me first give my ideas about a general rule of say maximum 10 posts/day for every poster.

For PS as a business, I think that it is important to get good content on the forums. In that way, a limit on the number of posts does not sound like a good idea. But I wonder if that is really the case.

At the same time, we are now in a 12-page-thread where the initial problem launched is the reducing number of trade-posts. Does this mean that for PS as a business the content of the posts is possibly more important than the actual number of posts? I do not want to imply at all that a consumer's post is less in quality than a trade-post (far from that).

As I may have said in previous posts, I think that when looking at PS and its forums as a community, we also need to consider certain positions and make sure that the community is welcoming to newcomers, be they tradespeople or consumers. One of the big hurdles in the PS-community might well be that the community is somehow set in its ways, and that there is a natural movement towards the status-quo. In Rocky-Talky, the forum that I follow most, this translates into about 80% of the posts coming from a limited number of posters.

Your suggestion to limit the daily number of posts might well bring a lot of fresh air into our community. While it would in some ways limit the omni-presence of certain posters, it would also induce these specific posters to choose their posts more carefully and probably improve the quality of their posts.

At the same time, it will probably automatically reduce the number of dogfights and the possibility to threadjack.

Finally, it would leave more room open for consumers and trade-people who are now posting less or not at all. It might well be compared to an economy, where anti-monopolistic measures exist in order to strengthen the fabric of the entire economy. Maybe the same principle applies here.

Live long,

This kind of philosophical/sociological approach to the question is of real value. Paul and Bam and others have articulated some important ideas about the dynamics of group interaction that apply here. And Sillyberry makes the fundamentally important observation that in order to fix things in the best possible ways it is necessary to know exactly what the goals are.

I too think Neil's idea of limiting (to some extent) the number of times someone can post would encourage more reasoned postings reducing the amount of clutter and snipes, and resulting in better quality content overall. Many visitors lurk and read old threads before joining in and I believe this would make their search for answers easier and more rewarding, and they would be more likely to stick around and contribute. If it served to improve the tone of the forum, it may also make new trades people more comfortable with contributing.

However, if the goal is making unfettered access to every individual's every thought and impulse, then this idea may run counter to it. Texting,chatting, tweeting are immensely popular because they are quick and easy and entertaining and do not require much time or effort.

Perhaps the idea can be incorporated in a hybrid way. Certain channels where people are hanging out shooting the breeze can be unlimited while other channels where people go for more serious information and discussion can be subject to daily post limits.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

... For the record, i like ECs and have no interest whatsoever in rounds. So the 'debates' permeating the forum hold little interest for me... So ive been on Pricescope for so long dreaming about that perfect stone, im not too far off getting it now, but there may not be anyone to help me?

This brings up an interesting point Blackpaw and I hope you don't mind my editing your post to only highlight the specific portion of your post that I'd like to address regarding the apparent primary focus upon rounds...

I suppose that there is more discussion and focus upon rounds because it is the most popular diamond shape and represents the largest market share... However most of the vendors who contribute to PS are quite knowledgeable about other diamond shapes and should be able to provide insight when a thread is presented. If you don't get the response that you seek, consider contacting a few of the vendors privately and ask them to contribute to the thread or answer your questions directly via email.

I don't know how many PS vendors have emerald cut diamonds within their personal inventory to list on PS and/or who mirror the emerald cut diamonds listed within the multiple listing service subscribed to by the trade due to financial constraints involved with doing so; thus here again, you might need to ask the vendors directly to provide you with some options - I believe there is an option to request vendors to provide quotes through the PS diamond search feature (?)

For the record, my contribution "here" should not be considered "fishing for a sale" because in truth, the cutters who I associate with do not (currently) produce them and thus I have no way to source one at this time... So I'm not looking to sell an emerald cut diamond to Blackpaw; however I would be happy to provide advice for such a quest and to look over "the paper" for any emerald cut diamonds which might be of interest... and I'm sure that quite a few of my peers here on PS would love to be asked to find an emerald cut diamond on your behalf - but none of them can provide a quote within a thread, even if asked specifically to do so

Todd, thanks for your response, I think you’ve hit on something. With the lack of expertise on step-cuts (no reflection on anyone, they’re just not popular enough!), perhaps the rules on trade participation need to be blurred, and as you say, there are a number of knowledgeable vendors on the forum that don’t even deal in ECs.

Karl, I appreciate your willingness (and ability!) to help, I’ll be looking properly for the stone in Jan/Feb and will hunt you down for advice Its no problem to figure out the vendors that typically deal in ECs, there are plenty of cust serv review threads, its more the stone itself that it seems difficult to get any expert opinions on!

I do believe that consumers could benefit from more relaxed policies on trade members commenting on stones, even though this would mean heavier moderation is required. I guess the problem is not so apparent with RBs because so many pricescope members are quite knowledgeable…

Se this topic please BP
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/emerald-cut-searching-for-black-paw.150486/
The same applies for anyone else interested in any other cut

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I've been a PS member for over 6 years now, have several KILLER stones as testimony , and have had some GREAT times here. I used to read and post like a wild woman... just could hardly get enough PS. Please let me say a sincere, heartfelt "thank you" for that.

But... I've been MIA recently -- not posting and honestly, not even lurking. Why? Well... this is gonna be kinda hard to say. I'm probably gonna be afraid to hit the "submit" button when it's done, too. But with all due respect and in the spirit of goodwill, I will speak my mind here, freely and I hope without retribution.

I must ditto what Alj (Allison D) said earlier. Bingo. She hit the nail on the head for me, too. Add to that my own personal opinions of simply. too. many. rules.

I think the many vendor rules made it very hard for them to add much that was meaningful to the forums, and I am glad that some of these rules have been lightened up. Thank you! Without the invaluable input our vendors provide, PS is pretty much just like a million other websites on the internet where people who share a common interest gather to look and say, "Oooh, nice!"

Other rules seem taxing and oppressive to me, too. No vendor logos on pictures in SMTB? Yet vendors can be freely mentioned in the narrative right underneath? Honestly, that just seems inconsistent (and arbitrary) to me.

Then there are those strict, enforced rules regarding no identifying information by posters in either their posts OR their profiles. Really???! I don't know how else to say this... but are we not all adults here?! We do not need PS to police us. If we wish to post our e-mail address or a blog link, so what?! I simply cannot understand the so-called issues with "security" and "privacy". PS does not have to accept any responsibility for any (voluntary) info shared on these forums by posters. So why the seeming "secrecy"?

No PMs? See above. Also, when PS 2.0 was in the works, a discussion was held regarding this. Several posters adamantly opposed PMs, claiming that these would cut down the traffic on the forums as chatting and discussions went "private". Well, guess what? Traffic on the forums is way down, and it ain't because of PMs.

So many other rules... can't discuss this, or that, or this, or that... but it's pretty hard to make a rule against general bad manners and snarkiness and those, unfortunately, are rampant. And, honestly, it's such a turn-off. I used to come here to have fun, to play, to laugh, to learn... it's not like that anymore. It's stressful now, and even depressing at times, when thread after thread evolve into pettiness and hypersensitivity.

My humble suggestion? Make some big, sweeping changes and see what happens. If, after a reasonable period of time, it doesn't work, then change it back. Nothing has to be forever. But what is that old saying... "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"?

I realize that the title of this thread is "Trade Participation on PS" and I know that in this post I have discussed other issues, too. But IMHO, like the posters before me who have also done so, it appears to be significant that the general atmosphere of PS (of which the "general poster" will always be the majority) sets the tone for vendor participation. Vendors will either WANT to use their limited, valuable time to contribute to the forum, or they won't... and a large part of their reasons why -- or why not -- will be because of what else is happening here.

OK...
*Deep breath*... clicking "submit" now!

This is what I was trying to say, but did not have the guts to put into such concrete terms. Thanks Lynn for posting this. I now feel like I am not the only one who feels this way.

 

[Kaleigh]

I've been a PS member for over 6 years now, have several KILLER stones as testimony , and have had some GREAT times here. I used to read and post like a wild woman... just could hardly get enough PS. Please let me say a sincere, heartfelt "thank you" for that.

But... I've been MIA recently -- not posting and honestly, not even lurking. Why? Well... this is gonna be kinda hard to say. I'm probably gonna be afraid to hit the "submit" button when it's done, too. But with all due respect and in the spirit of goodwill, I will speak my mind here, freely and I hope without retribution.

I must ditto what Alj (Allison D) said earlier. Bingo. She hit the nail on the head for me, too. Add to that my own personal opinions of simply. too. many. rules.

I think the many vendor rules made it very hard for them to add much that was meaningful to the forums, and I am glad that some of these rules have been lightened up. Thank you! Without the invaluable input our vendors provide, PS is pretty much just like a million other websites on the internet where people who share a common interest gather to look and say, "Oooh, nice!"

Other rules seem taxing and oppressive to me, too. No vendor logos on pictures in SMTB? Yet vendors can be freely mentioned in the narrative right underneath? Honestly, that just seems inconsistent (and arbitrary) to me.

Then there are those strict, enforced rules regarding no identifying information by posters in either their posts OR their profiles. Really???! I don't know how else to say this... but are we not all adults here?! We do not need PS to police us. If we wish to post our e-mail address or a blog link, so what?! I simply cannot understand the so-called issues with "security" and "privacy". PS does not have to accept any responsibility for any (voluntary) info shared on these forums by posters. So why the seeming "secrecy"?

No PMs? See above. Also, when PS 2.0 was in the works, a discussion was held regarding this. Several posters adamantly opposed PMs, claiming that these would cut down the traffic on the forums as chatting and discussions went "private". Well, guess what? Traffic on the forums is way down, and it ain't because of PMs.

So many other rules... can't discuss this, or that, or this, or that... but it's pretty hard to make a rule against general bad manners and snarkiness and those, unfortunately, are rampant. And, honestly, it's such a turn-off. I used to come here to have fun, to play, to laugh, to learn... it's not like that anymore. It's stressful now, and even depressing at times, when thread after thread evolve into pettiness and hypersensitivity.

My humble suggestion? Make some big, sweeping changes and see what happens. If, after a reasonable period of time, it doesn't work, then change it back. Nothing has to be forever. But what is that old saying... "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"?

I realize that the title of this thread is "Trade Participation on PS" and I know that in this post I have discussed other issues, too. But IMHO, like the posters before me who have also done so, it appears to be significant that the general atmosphere of PS (of which the "general poster" will always be the majority) sets the tone for vendor participation. Vendors will either WANT to use their limited, valuable time to contribute to the forum, or they won't... and a large part of their reasons why -- or why not -- will be because of what else is happening here.

OK...
*Deep breath*... clicking "submit" now!

This is what I was trying to say, but did not have the guts to put into such concrete terms. Thanks Lynn for posting this. I now feel like I am not the only one who feels this way.

Lynn says it all...

 

[Lee Little]

I've been a PS member for over 6 years now, have several KILLER stones as testimony , and have had some GREAT times here. I used to read and post like a wild woman... just could hardly get enough PS. Please let me say a sincere, heartfelt "thank you" for that.

But... I've been MIA recently -- not posting and honestly, not even lurking. Why? Well... this is gonna be kinda hard to say. I'm probably gonna be afraid to hit the "submit" button when it's done, too. But with all due respect and in the spirit of goodwill, I will speak my mind here, freely and I hope without retribution.

I must ditto what Alj (Allison D) said earlier. Bingo. She hit the nail on the head for me, too. Add to that my own personal opinions of simply. too. many. rules.

I think the many vendor rules made it very hard for them to add much that was meaningful to the forums, and I am glad that some of these rules have been lightened up. Thank you! Without the invaluable input our vendors provide, PS is pretty much just like a million other websites on the internet where people who share a common interest gather to look and say, "Oooh, nice!"

Other rules seem taxing and oppressive to me, too. No vendor logos on pictures in SMTB? Yet vendors can be freely mentioned in the narrative right underneath? Honestly, that just seems inconsistent (and arbitrary) to me.

Then there are those strict, enforced rules regarding no identifying information by posters in either their posts OR their profiles. Really???! I don't know how else to say this... but are we not all adults here?! We do not need PS to police us. If we wish to post our e-mail address or a blog link, so what?! I simply cannot understand the so-called issues with "security" and "privacy". PS does not have to accept any responsibility for any (voluntary) info shared on these forums by posters. So why the seeming "secrecy"?

No PMs? See above. Also, when PS 2.0 was in the works, a discussion was held regarding this. Several posters adamantly opposed PMs, claiming that these would cut down the traffic on the forums as chatting and discussions went "private". Well, guess what? Traffic on the forums is way down, and it ain't because of PMs.

So many other rules... can't discuss this, or that, or this, or that... but it's pretty hard to make a rule against general bad manners and snarkiness and those, unfortunately, are rampant. And, honestly, it's such a turn-off. I used to come here to have fun, to play, to laugh, to learn... it's not like that anymore. It's stressful now, and even depressing at times, when thread after thread evolve into pettiness and hypersensitivity.

My humble suggestion? Make some big, sweeping changes and see what happens. If, after a reasonable period of time, it doesn't work, then change it back. Nothing has to be forever. But what is that old saying... "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"?

I realize that the title of this thread is "Trade Participation on PS" and I know that in this post I have discussed other issues, too. But IMHO, like the posters before me who have also done so, it appears to be significant that the general atmosphere of PS (of which the "general poster" will always be the majority) sets the tone for vendor participation. Vendors will either WANT to use their limited, valuable time to contribute to the forum, or they won't... and a large part of their reasons why -- or why not -- will be because of what else is happening here.

OK...
*Deep breath*... clicking "submit" now!

Lynn for President!!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi Lynn,
Love your thoughts.
Regarding PM's and email addresses etc - when we did it there was open slather attacks on posters who came on looking to buy a diamond. They were often inundated with emails by lurkers who registered just that day as well as vendors who were sponsors (and should have behaved better).
$10k plus shoppers are attractive targets.

Managing shills and discriminating between seeminlgy nice people who may or may not have been offered kickbacks and deals on their next purchase - it was a moderation nightmare and our entire reputation for independance and advocacy was being chipped away at.
Does that make sense?

Now clearly we are open to all suggestions - but there are pro's and con's to many seemingly great ideas.

One thing for sure is the rules are being relaxed, and things are changing and being trialed.

 

[Maisie]

Maybe a new thread could be started in Hangout where we can offer suggestions from a consumer perspective so this thread can remain about trade members? I liked Lynn's post and would like to discuss it further.

 

[MAC-W]

Maybe a new thread could be started in Hangout where we can offer suggestions from a consumer perspective so this thread can remain about trade members? I liked Lynn's post and would like to discuss it further.

+1

this is a perfect example for splitting a thread.

 

[Catmom]

I've been a PS member for over 6 years now, have several KILLER stones as testimony , and have had some GREAT times here. I used to read and post like a wild woman... just could hardly get enough PS. Please let me say a sincere, heartfelt "thank you" for that.

But... I've been MIA recently -- not posting and honestly, not even lurking. Why? Well... this is gonna be kinda hard to say. I'm probably gonna be afraid to hit the "submit" button when it's done, too. But with all due respect and in the spirit of goodwill, I will speak my mind here, freely and I hope without retribution.

I must ditto what Alj (Allison D) said earlier. Bingo. She hit the nail on the head for me, too. Add to that my own personal opinions of simply. too. many. rules.

I think the many vendor rules made it very hard for them to add much that was meaningful to the forums, and I am glad that some of these rules have been lightened up. Thank you! Without the invaluable input our vendors provide, PS is pretty much just like a million other websites on the internet where people who share a common interest gather to look and say, "Oooh, nice!"

Other rules seem taxing and oppressive to me, too. No vendor logos on pictures in SMTB? Yet vendors can be freely mentioned in the narrative right underneath? Honestly, that just seems inconsistent (and arbitrary) to me.

Then there are those strict, enforced rules regarding no identifying information by posters in either their posts OR their profiles. Really???! I don't know how else to say this... but are we not all adults here?! We do not need PS to police us. If we wish to post our e-mail address or a blog link, so what?! I simply cannot understand the so-called issues with "security" and "privacy". PS does not have to accept any responsibility for any (voluntary) info shared on these forums by posters. So why the seeming "secrecy"?

No PMs? See above. Also, when PS 2.0 was in the works, a discussion was held regarding this. Several posters adamantly opposed PMs, claiming that these would cut down the traffic on the forums as chatting and discussions went "private". Well, guess what? Traffic on the forums is way down, and it ain't because of PMs.

So many other rules... can't discuss this, or that, or this, or that... but it's pretty hard to make a rule against general bad manners and snarkiness and those, unfortunately, are rampant. And, honestly, it's such a turn-off. I used to come here to have fun, to play, to laugh, to learn... it's not like that anymore. It's stressful now, and even depressing at times, when thread after thread evolve into pettiness and hypersensitivity.

My humble suggestion? Make some big, sweeping changes and see what happens. If, after a reasonable period of time, it doesn't work, then change it back. Nothing has to be forever. But what is that old saying... "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"?

I realize that the title of this thread is "Trade Participation on PS" and I know that in this post I have discussed other issues, too. But IMHO, like the posters before me who have also done so, it appears to be significant that the general atmosphere of PS (of which the "general poster" will always be the majority) sets the tone for vendor participation. Vendors will either WANT to use their limited, valuable time to contribute to the forum, or they won't... and a large part of their reasons why -- or why not -- will be because of what else is happening here.

OK...
*Deep breath*... clicking "submit" now!

Lynn, my thoughts exactly!

 

[TravelingGal]

I've been a PS member for over 6 years now, have several KILLER stones as testimony , and have had some GREAT times here. I used to read and post like a wild woman... just could hardly get enough PS. Please let me say a sincere, heartfelt "thank you" for that.

But... I've been MIA recently -- not posting and honestly, not even lurking. Why? Well... this is gonna be kinda hard to say. I'm probably gonna be afraid to hit the "submit" button when it's done, too. But with all due respect and in the spirit of goodwill, I will speak my mind here, freely and I hope without retribution.

I must ditto what Alj (Allison D) said earlier. Bingo. She hit the nail on the head for me, too. Add to that my own personal opinions of simply. too. many. rules.

I think the many vendor rules made it very hard for them to add much that was meaningful to the forums, and I am glad that some of these rules have been lightened up. Thank you! Without the invaluable input our vendors provide, PS is pretty much just like a million other websites on the internet where people who share a common interest gather to look and say, "Oooh, nice!"

Other rules seem taxing and oppressive to me, too. No vendor logos on pictures in SMTB? Yet vendors can be freely mentioned in the narrative right underneath? Honestly, that just seems inconsistent (and arbitrary) to me.

Then there are those strict, enforced rules regarding no identifying information by posters in either their posts OR their profiles. Really???! I don't know how else to say this... but are we not all adults here?! We do not need PS to police us. If we wish to post our e-mail address or a blog link, so what?! I simply cannot understand the so-called issues with "security" and "privacy". PS does not have to accept any responsibility for any (voluntary) info shared on these forums by posters. So why the seeming "secrecy"?

No PMs? See above. Also, when PS 2.0 was in the works, a discussion was held regarding this. Several posters adamantly opposed PMs, claiming that these would cut down the traffic on the forums as chatting and discussions went "private". Well, guess what? Traffic on the forums is way down, and it ain't because of PMs.

So many other rules... can't discuss this, or that, or this, or that... but it's pretty hard to make a rule against general bad manners and snarkiness and those, unfortunately, are rampant. And, honestly, it's such a turn-off. I used to come here to have fun, to play, to laugh, to learn... it's not like that anymore. It's stressful now, and even depressing at times, when thread after thread evolve into pettiness and hypersensitivity.

My humble suggestion? Make some big, sweeping changes and see what happens. If, after a reasonable period of time, it doesn't work, then change it back. Nothing has to be forever. But what is that old saying... "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"?

I realize that the title of this thread is "Trade Participation on PS" and I know that in this post I have discussed other issues, too. But IMHO, like the posters before me who have also done so, it appears to be significant that the general atmosphere of PS (of which the "general poster" will always be the majority) sets the tone for vendor participation. Vendors will either WANT to use their limited, valuable time to contribute to the forum, or they won't... and a large part of their reasons why -- or why not -- will be because of what else is happening here.

OK...
*Deep breath*... clicking "submit" now!

Lynn, my thoughts exactly!

I also agree with most of Lynn's excellent post. However as to PM's, it's almost a moot point now. Nearly all regular PSers have found one another offline, and part of the reason why traffic is down from many regulars is they've found another forum to talk - so yes, behind the scenes chat is a reason (and people go behind the scene for a lot of reasons that Lynn posted above). I couldn't believe it that when an offline mothers group formed, there are over FIFTY mothers. 50! I didn't even know there were 50 PS moms! That's 50 PS regulars who are no longer actively posting on FHH, and by default lurking less and less.

But yes, many of the other reasons for the PS slowdown would be as Lynn mentioned: hypersensitivity, pettiness, and just a general feeling of blah from members.

 

[Todd Gray]

Hi Lynn,
Love your thoughts.
Regarding PM's and email addresses etc - when we did it there was open slather attacks on posters who came on looking to buy a diamond. They were often inundated with emails by lurkers who registered just that day as well as vendors who were sponsors (and should have behaved better).
$10k plus shoppers are attractive targets.

Managing shills and discriminating between seemingly nice people who may or may not have been offered kickbacks and deals on their next purchase - it was a moderation nightmare and our entire reputation for independence and advocacy was being chipped away at.
Does that make sense?

Now clearly we are open to all suggestions - but there are pro's and con's to many seemingly great ideas.

One thing for sure is the rules are being relaxed, and things are changing and being trialed.

It is true that when PM was active on PS, there were issues with vendors approaching consumers via PM and soliciting their business; however (1) I believe that the majority of vendors who abused the privilege are no longer members of PS and are well known to forum admin; and (2) it would be easy for forum admin to terminate the accounts of members who were found to be abusing the PM feature.

That said, as TravelingGal has pointed out, many PS members have tracked each other down via other venues where they are able to share other common interests and communicate more freely. Perhaps PS should be viewed as a sort of corner coffee shop where "customers" come and go as they please, as doing so fits their needs... There will always be people coming and going, the question at hand is more or less "how should Cafe PS go about retaining (more of) its current customers while attracting new ones?" which is the basic concern of every business... If customers of a coffee shop feel welcome and accommodated, they are likely to stay (I've seen this happen when the coffee wasn't even that good) and if the customers feel unwelcome, harassed (by admin, vendors or other consumers) they will leave... likewise, they are likely to leave if they feel that they can not freely discuss whatever is on their minds or if they feel that the mood of the shop is no longer fun and inviting... clearly whoever said that restaurants are the most difficult business to succeed at has never attempted to operate an online forum

 

[Lynn B]

Hi Lynn,
Love your thoughts.
Regarding PM's and email addresses etc - when we did it there was open slather attacks on posters who came on looking to buy a diamond. They were often inundated with emails by lurkers who registered just that day as well as vendors who were sponsors (and should have behaved better).
$10k plus shoppers are attractive targets.

Managing shills and discriminating between seeminlgy nice people who may or may not have been offered kickbacks and deals on their next purchase - it was a moderation nightmare and our entire reputation for independance and advocacy was being chipped away at.
Does that make sense?

Now clearly we are open to all suggestions - but there are pro's and con's to many seemingly great ideas.

One thing for sure is the rules are being relaxed, and things are changing and being trialed.

Garry:
So nice to hear your comments, thank you. You absolutely have a behind-the-scenes perspective that I have admittedly never had.
I also have no experience either operating or moderating a public forum, and make no pretense of that! However, I can say that I hang out on another forum (non-diamond related) that requires every new member to have 25 (or maybe now it's 50?) posts before they have the PM option "turned on". This eliminates a LOT of the problems you mentioned above.

And, I was thinking, specific to PS... perhaps anyone with a "trade badge" could NOT be given the option to send or receive PMs. Wouldn't this eliminate most of the rest of the potential problems?

My husband and I own our own business, and we have come to learn that in ANY business, there is ALWAYS a new potential problem just waiting to happen... it's just the nature of human interaction, I guess. But each specific incident (however unfortunate or irritating it may well be!) doesn't always require the development and enforcement of another NEW rule (or set of rules).

I think there comes a point when "the rules" can become "circular". Creating too many rules leads to confusion and resentment and then more rules seem to be needed to enforce the rules and then additional rules (and resentments) build up and accumulate and things go 'round and 'round and pretty soon there are so many rules and resentments that it (whatever "it" is) just doesn't even seem worth the trouble anymore.

It's not my intention to try to pretend I have all (or even "any") of the answers here. But I do care about PS, and I deeply miss what used to be here. I simply stand by my suggestion to just TRY some big changes, and see what happens. It could be a VERY pleasant surprise.


Maisie, Lisa, Michelle, Ltl. Firecracker, Mac W, and Lee Little:
I want to thank you all so very much for your support. You all seemed to know just what a difficult post that was to write, and I appreciate your thoughtful words and solidarity more than I can say.

TGal:
Thank you, too, for your kind post, and I would like to make one comment, please. I am so glad that you PS Mommies "found each other" and were able to connect outside of PS; I can imagine how much fun that must be for all of you as your little ones grow and change. But, with all due respect, my friend, I don't think that makes PMs "almost a moot point". In fact, far from it. For posters like me who don't do Facebook or any other social network sites, or for others who simply don't have the internet *savvy* to try to figure out how to "find someone", there's no other way for us to "connect" with another poster we would simply like to get to know better. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, that I state my strong request and preference for PMs and/or the allowance of identifying information in our posts or Profile section.

 

[TravelingGal]

Hi Lynn,

TGal:
Thank you, too, for your kind post, and I would like to make one comment, please. I am so glad that you PS Mommies "found each other" and were able to connect outside of PS; I can imagine how much fun that must be for all of you as your little ones grow and change. But, with all due respect, my friend, I don't think that makes PMs a "moot point". In fact, far from it. For posters like me who don't do Facebook or any other social network sites, or simply don't have the internet *savvy* to try to figure out how to "find someone", there's no other way for us to "connect" with another poster we would simply like to get to know better. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, that I state my strong request and preference for PMs and/or the allowance of identifying information in our posts or Profile section.

Hi Lynn! Let me clarify. I didn't say it was a moot point. I said it was ALMOST a moot point, precisely for the reason you said. And of course, new posters come in and out every day here, so it could be there for them there. But my saying it was almost a moot point is because having PMs now would not be the cause of current regulars going offline...that's already being done and affecting traffic on PS. That's what I meant - not that we should or shouldn't have them. Only that having them wouldn't cause people to go behind the scenes because that's happened already and it's too late.

 

[Lynn B]

TGal,
After I clicked SUBMIT I re-read your post and noticed that you had written "almost a moot point" so I edited my reply to correct myself. You beat me to the punch, though and I see you quoted me in that brief time period before I got that changed. But I did want to clarify that I made that edit BEFORE I saw your post, not after. But thanks for the clarification!

 

[TravelingGal]

TGal,
After I clicked SUBMIT I re-read your post and noticed that you had written "almost a moot point" so I edited my reply to correct myself. You beat me to the punch, though and I see you quoted me in that brief time period before I got that changed. But I did want to clarify that I made that edit BEFORE I saw your post, not after. But thanks for the clarification!

No problem Lynn...I just wanted you to know why I said what I did. There were some good points made from the trade folks about PMs and good points made by you too. I just think that there are many reasons why consumers are no longer making PS *the* place to stop by...it'd be a long list if I were to name them all. And as others mentioned, tradepeople are here to make a buck (nothing wrong with that) and good ambience here is a key factor in bringing consumers in and making them STAY.

Personally I just read this entire thread and I'm reminded of why I stay away from the RT posts. I've always had some vendors whom I don't respect all that much, but boy, some of the consumers are kooky too. I think I'll just stick with the offline mommy threads. Hopefully you'll find us all offline at some point Lynn!

 

[Todd Gray]

Hi Lynn,
Love your thoughts.
Regarding PM's and email addresses etc - when we did it there was open slather attacks on posters who came on looking to buy a diamond. They were often inundated with emails by lurkers who registered just that day as well as vendors who were sponsors (and should have behaved better).
$10k plus shoppers are attractive targets.

Managing shills and discriminating between seeminlgy nice people who may or may not have been offered kickbacks and deals on their next purchase - it was a moderation nightmare and our entire reputation for independance and advocacy was being chipped away at.
Does that make sense?

Now clearly we are open to all suggestions - but there are pro's and con's to many seemingly great ideas.

One thing for sure is the rules are being relaxed, and things are changing and being trialed.

Garry:
So nice to hear your comments, thank you. You absolutely have a behind-the-scenes perspective that I have admittedly never had.
I also have no experience either operating or moderating a public forum, and make no pretense of that! However, I can say that I hang out on another forum (non-diamond related) that requires every new member to have 25 (or maybe now it's 50?) posts before they have the PM option "turned on". This eliminates a LOT of the problems you mentioned above.

And, I was thinking, specific to PS... perhaps anyone with a "trade badge" could NOT be given the option to send or receive PMs. Wouldn't this eliminate most of the rest of the potential problems?

My husband and I own our own business, and we have come to learn that in ANY business, there is ALWAYS a new potential problem just waiting to happen... it's just the nature of human interaction, I guess. But each specific incident (however unfortunate or irritating it may well be!) doesn't always require the development and enforcement of another NEW rule (or set of rules).

I think there comes a point when "the rules" can become "circular". Creating too many rules leads to confusion and resentment and then more rules seem to be needed to enforce the rules and then additional rules (and resentments) build up and accumulate and things go 'round and 'round and pretty soon there are so many rules and resentments that it (whatever "it" is) just doesn't even seem worth the trouble anymore.

It's not my intention to try to pretend I have all (or even "any") of the answers here. But I do care about PS, and I deeply miss what used to be here. I simply stand by my suggestion to just TRY some big changes, and see what happens. It could be a VERY pleasant surprise.


Maisie, Lisa, Michelle, Ltl. Firecracker, Mac W, and Lee Little:
I want to thank you all so very much for your support. You all seemed to know just what a difficult post that was to write, and I appreciate your thoughtful words and solidarity more than I can say.

TGal:
Thank you, too, for your kind post, and I would like to make one comment, please. I am so glad that you PS Mommies "found each other" and were able to connect outside of PS; I can imagine how much fun that must be for all of you as your little ones grow and change. But, with all due respect, my friend, I don't think that makes PMs "almost a moot point". In fact, far from it. For posters like me who don't do Facebook or any other social network sites, or for others who simply don't have the internet *savvy* to try to figure out how to "find someone", there's no other way for us to "connect" with another poster we would simply like to get to know better. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, that I state my strong request and preference for PMs and/or the allowance of identifying information in our posts or Profile section.

I like this option, having an activation of the PM feature related to the number of posts contributed by a new member would certainly reduce the number of "brand new" members who might otherwise use the PM feature to spam other members.

However I'd also like to state that I don't see a reason for PM services to be restricted to non-trade members only... Personally I'd love to be able to PM one of my peers in the trade if they happened to be online at the same time that I am and be able to respond to a PM from a consumer if one was initiated by them. Opening up the PM feature for one "class" of PS member (consumers) while simultaneously blocking the feature for an equally important "class" (tradespeople) would constitute "discrimination"

P.S. I learned "that" from my PC buddies in local government! Doh!

 

[Lynn B]

I like this option, having an activation of the PM feature related to the number of posts contributed by a new member would certainly reduce the number of "brand new" members who might otherwise use the PM feature to spam other members.

However I'd also like to state that I don't see a reason for PM services to be restricted to non-trade members only... Personally I'd love to be able to PM one of my peers in the trade if they happened to be online at the same time that I am and be able to respond to a PM from a consumer if one was initiated by them. Opening up the PM feature for one "class" of PS member (consumers) while simultaneously blocking the feature for an equally important "class" (tradespeople) would constitute "discrimination"

P.S. I learned "that" from my PC buddies in local government! Doh!

LOL, Todd!!!

OK, seriously... the *only* reason I suggested that a PM function could be limited to non-trade members was because it was identified as a past problem that certain vendors had contacted PS members via PM with less-than-noble motives. Eliminating that feature would eliminate that problem. I'm not saying I personally even LIKE that idea or see it as necessary (as I have mentioned before, I am a firm believer that we are all big people here; I can choose to ignore a pushy vendor) -- but it would solve the problem of PMs being used by vendors in a way that went against what PS is supposed to be all about.

The other thing is this: I didn't think it wouldn't be any real hardship for the vendors not to have PMs is because you guys have your website link and/or e-mail address in every post. You can easily contact one another (or be contacted by posters) at any time; unlike us regular members, you're not hard to find!

 

[Lee Little]

Of course the idea of the PM button being turned on after 50 post is a real problem solver. If anyone abuses it after it is turned on they can be handled by the administration. I don't think it would be logical to limit it to non-trade only though as that would build resentment. The PM is handy for anybody to post a quick personal message to anybody, often I would not want to leave the site to hunt for an email to contact somebody unless it was extra important. Often when I post messages to non trade people on other forums it is almost never about selling them something but a message I consider sensitive about what they are talking about.
I do not run any forum but I just figured that a PM message is not secret from the administration as they can probably read all their site, right?
Perhaps consumers should not post their email if they are soft targets or attractive targets but they should be allowed to if they so desire. I like having mine posted as people can contact me spontaneously and easily that way.
This is a good forum to read and I will be happy to see it get even better. Best regards, Lee