Trade Participation on Pricescope

[Maisie]

Its laughable that I am being accused of derailing this topic. What do you think happens every time the bickering breaks out? Its distracting and not nice to read. I can see that there is immense dislike here. But it doesn't mean that you can challenge everything that RD says. We don't all want a perfect diamond. Sometimes budget or preference determines what we want. 'Super Ideal diamonds are all well and good but where does it say in the PS rules that they are all that you are allowed to talk about? Each vendor has their own preference of what is pretty/value for money. Why go after RD like a dog after a bone, just because his opinon is different to yours?

I have never bought from DBL. I have never spoken to RD. I don't have anything to gain from posting my thoughts. Just wanted to clear that up before I am accused of anything else.

 

[Amethyste]

CCL, You accuse us of derailing the thread? How about the post you made about "friends and Foes"? That was a derail. And a really un-necessary one at that.

And Arjuna, I don't know what happened between you and RD - nor I care actually, but you are civil about it and that's all is important.

No wonder I stay away!

And I never bought anything from RD either. Just wanted to mention before the minions start jumping on my back.

 

[oldminer]

Somehow I think that a discussion such as this might be better taken to a place where trademembers and Pricescope owners can make the best decisions which would be with the idea of improving Pricescope, and, at the same time, improving trade member's businesses. It is very apparent that Pricescope cannot go un-moderated and must have some rigid rules of conduct. There is room for some flexibility, but Pricescope seems to have done well operating in a closed environment. Maybe there ought to be a system for trade members to contact Pricecopers outside of the forum so that rules of self-promotion don't get broken accidentally on-line. I've seen examples of disputes that could have been resolved going on for pages when a bit of assistance that I might have wished to offer could not have been given due to no self promotion rules.

In the end, it is great to see what consumers think on the subject, but this discussion may be more productive for business and less destructive of the forum if now continued in a more discreet environment. By now Andrey must better understand many issues that are in the minds of users. From what I have been reading, this thread has lost its focus and has become a myriad of personal attacks which will not prove beneficial.............although I enjoy reading the posts but not for any business goal.

 

[Amethyste]

In the end, it is great to see what consumers think on the subject, but this discussion may be more productive for business and less destructive of the forum if now continued in a more discreet environment. By now Andrey must better understand many issues that are in the minds of users. From what I have been reading, this thread has lost its focus and has become a myriad of personal attacks which will not prove beneficial.............although I enjoy reading the posts but not for any business goal.

While I understand that most think that this has taken a "personnal attack" path, I personally think it was necessary to mention that it often does happen and it does drive away existing members, can inhibit the desire to post or for trade people to join and is really not a constructive way to engage into a discussion. To feel that you have to walk on eggshells because some might be afraid to get chewed up ans spit out. Everyone has a contribution and can add to the general knowledge of what this forum is all about. There is no right and wrong answer, ultimately, the consumer can take what he/she has learned and make their own decisions, regardless of if you agree or not with what someone has said. To be respectful and tactful in a response delivery is what can drive a forum in a positive direction and gather more people in the process... Like a big circle.

I wanted to point out that I am not the only one who has somewhat left the forum because of certain people and how freely they give their opinion(s) and the way it is done can be hurtful. We tend to easily forget that there is a human being on the other side of the screen. Mis-reading a post can mislead someone's intentional tone and then sparks the flames. The constant bickering, pointing and not-so-nice posts towards certain people is just getting to the point where it is just becoming unpleasant to come here and enjoy this forum. I am sure it does apply to trade people, either the one who have joined and the ones that are still in lurk mode.

 

[John P]

Revisiting this thread's original post:

We have noticed that fewer trade members participate regularly now than some years ago. And we hear that potential new members worry about joining because the rules are strict.

So how can Pricescope (1) increase the participation of existing trade members and (2) attract new trade members?

The pages of this thread are filled with thoughtful suggestions that could potentially help with #1. What about #2? (Neil had a few on p1 - others?)

 

[Rockdiamond]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.

RD
You can not really believe that tradespeople avoid Pricescope because people are mean to you????
It seems quite reasonable that consumers have a broader range of tolerance from moderators than tradespeople on a consumer advocate forum.
You are hardly a wimp?

Contributution to solutions would be welcome

At the risk of being caught agreeing with David, I agree with David here. A significant number of posts are directed at him and are loaded with a level of hostility and venom from anonymous posters that would absolutely not be tolerated from anyone in the trade. David, you aren’t completely innocent here. You routinely post thing in the name of education that you KNOW are going to start a fight with the chorus, and, in my opinion, do it at least in part for that reason. It seems plausible that a prospective poster who is reading through the forum and considering if they want to play in this sandbox, especially one who generally agrees with David’s approach, would decide that it’s not worth the pain to post a dissenting opinion.

In a sense, I act as a lightening rod.
In Neil's post he makes the point that other like minded people, be they trade or consumers would be discouraged from posting seeing the attacks I have endured
The post - which really was made in support of me airing my opinions was twisted by other members - in such a way that might discourage Neil from further comment- although it appears Neil is made of stronger stuff.
I just have to throw this our there- the few bad apples are holding the entire forum hostage
Say something he does not like and they'll spend hours on google digging up dirt. The message is clear. No questions allowed.
If you're a consumer you can be insulted
If your a known trademember the insults turn to attempts of intentional damage to one's livelihood
The analogy of a schoolyard bully is very apt

 

[oldminer]

A well working site will automatically attract new trade members. There will never be an over-supply of partiicipating trade members because of time constraints, but I believe a site where the activity has a chance to benefit trade participants will just naturally make enough people particpate, including new ones. The only particpants who can remain viable are those who are able to express themselves reasonably well and adhere to the rules. This alone keeps things pretty well controlled on the trade side.

 

[Karl_K]

Revisiting this thread's original post:

We have noticed that fewer trade members participate regularly now than some years ago. And we hear that potential new members worry about joining because the rules are strict.

So how can Pricescope (1) increase the participation of existing trade members and (2) attract new trade members?

The pages of this thread are filled with thoughtful suggestions that could potentially help with #1. What about #2? (Neil had a few on p1 - others?)

I would word it how to attract the right kind of trade members.
We do not want people nor need people who feel it is their lives duty to defend the trade and the old ways of doing things. We have to many of those already.

PS has always been about doing things differently and giving consumers the power.
That is a hard thing for many in the trade to handle.
Being successful on PS takes time, dedication, and a lot of work.
Most of all it takes the right attitude.
Honestly there are very few who will even try, how to attract them is a good question with a lot of complex answers.

 

[Todd Gray]

It's probably not a well known fact for newer members to the forum, but Price Scope was more or less launched when most of us old guys got kicked off of another forum for challenging the censorship of my old friend Rhino of GOG; he'd been kicked off of the forum for "self-promotion" in the form of writing a one sentence update along the lines of "I realize that there are several threads which are directed at me which require a response; the East Coast is in the middle of a blizzard right now and my access to the internet is limited; I'll respond to everything in due time when regular access to the internet (and power) is restored." (paraphrasing)

As I recall, Jonathan never got that chance... He was kicked off the forum for self-promotion, for starting a thread that was all about him. I initiated a thread that had something to do with censorship and tyranny, I was immediately kicked off the forum. I forget who followed next, but it became a kind of honor to speak up and get knocked off the forum. And we all ended up here on PS, by invitation and with the promise of not having to worry about such things in the future.

Those were the Glory Days of PS; there were some exceptional conversations (heated debates) and it was all about the learning curve and advancement of cutting technology. We didn't all agree, far from it, but that was part of the fun. We would vehemently defend our positions and then follow it up with a private phone call or an email to the person we were challenging and discuss the matter in-depth like a bunch of (drunk) scholars debating quantum physics or something like that... and we would meet up at trade shows and laugh about how much fun we were having and how much we were learning from each other, because you see, before the magic of the forums, we didn't have a place to get together and discuss our beliefs and ideas... and then came "the rules" and I suppose that they came for a reason, but "the rules" have made the playground a less interesting place to visit, I find it difficult to "be myself" and express myself freely, to think out loud, when there is the fear that the thought police will tap me on the head and say don't do that again... but I must also say that the current PS admin, et al, does so in a much better manner than the final attempts of the original PS admin - at the end, I began to wonder whether they were losing touch, or possibly if they had forgotten what the original premise of PS had been... Perhaps in much the same way the reflection of our country is but a glimmer of the original (or at least reported) premise of this great nation? Is it the laws that have messed up our nation? Or is the lawyers? The politicians (who are lawyers)? Is there even a difference? There weren't many rules (laws) to follow when PS was new, but then again, there were fewer members and the problems seemed to resolve themselves... Maybe all we need is a bit more rope Andrey

P.S. in the spirit of what I think "this" is all about... I wrote this; I didn't review it; I truly enjoyed doing so; it feels like "the old days" and yet there is this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that is screaming "don't hit submit, you fool, you're not being PC and somebody is going to be offended". Oh hell, I just don't care. Oh yea, that feels good. I think I'll call Wink and tell him so... Then I'll call John P. and email Paul, then I'm going to call Jon over at GOG and say "that felt good" and maybe I'll call one or two of "the others" who don't post anymore and they'll say "you know Todd, that was just dumb". YEA

 

[risingsun]

I don't have experience with the ole PS of yore, so I can't comment on the changes over time.I don't think that putting a "TRADE MEMBER" label on trade members' posts is really sufficient, if what we are looking for is a declaration of a poster's interests. I don't have a problem with Garry not declaring his part-ownership of PS (and he is pretty transparent about that), but I do think that there should be more clarification of a person's ROLE within the trade. In some cases it's pretty obvious (eg. denverappraiser) but I think it would be valuable for posters seeking advice to see whether the advice given is coming from an appraiser, a jeweller, a business manager, a gemologist, or a specific combination of the above (rather than just "[Name] - [Business name] - [Website]"). To seasoned PS members this information is obvious but I can imagine that a newcomer would not necessarily know or be able to readily work it out.

I assume that it would be technically difficult to do this anywhere apart from the signature file, but ideally it would be watermarked on posts.

All the RD/Kenny/CCL/whoever else stuff is getting really tiring. In fact, that conflict alone is one of the reasons why I find PS less appealing than previously. Seriously, guys - we know you don't agree with each other. The rest is just dross, and it's uninteresting-to-read dross that clogs up other threads. I think it is enough for experts/prosumers/consumers to just state their opinions, and leave it at that. After all, it is an internet forum - it is entirely made up of the subjective opinions of participants. Established members know that certain entrenched conflicts exist; they don't need to be played out ad nauseam in threadjack after threadjack. I do not want to block any of these posters as I think they have fun/useful/educational things to say a lot of the time, but geeeeeeeez guys - the argy bargy is boring, and irritating to encounter in threads where it's not necessarily expected. If there is a concern amongst the involved parties that a new poster might be being done a terrible injustice by reading the advice of an adversary, it is enough to state one's own opinion, and acknowledge that one's view is in conflict with another poster. Leave it at that. Be civil. Dead horse, etc.

I can understand why PS requires pictures taken by vendors to be de-identified (kind of like drug company merchandise and doctors...insidious advertising) but I think that photos should be credited. Watermarking would solve the problem of photos being appropriated by 3rd parties (eg. eBay sellers etc) but I think that they significantly detract from the viewing pleasure of the community - we are here to oooh! and aaah!, after all!

A number of consumers/posters have been saying a version of the same thing throughout this thread. I don't recall anyone addressing our concerns. If you attract more trade people and the consumers have left this forum because their concerns have been ignored, there won't be a PS. The "attacks" have gone both ways. Any vendor attacking consumers needs to be banned. We have a "report concern" button. Use it. Now we need that button to produce swift results. Please pay attention, we are leaving this board because of this type of behavior, regardless of the source

 

[Rhino]

You're funny Todd. I too hesitated to hit send on my first post too but figured what the hay .. they're asking. When I can't express myself freely I feel like ... why bother typing? I remember when I used to set aside at least an hour or two of my day posting daily on the forum like you and the other old timers. I think if a vendor abuses his priveldges (if those ropes are indeed loosened) he will only shoot himself in the foot and it will come back to haunt him.

Participating on the forums is a lesson in human relations. A crash course in the school of hard knox. A person will only become skilled in that practice the same way they become skilled in any practice and oftentimes that involves the school of hard knox. Ie. Doing and learning from our mistakes and successes. A person can't be schooled however if the rules prevent him from doing so. I see the need for rules but when those rules prevent teachers, educators (including vendors who are knowledgeable) from sharing and helping consumers it is not conducive to a learning environment. I see many posts from consumers asking for expert advice. I cannot respond freely with educational material (links or video) because many times I'll just hit delete for fear my post may be violating a rule. I've learned to delegate my time differently now and concentrate my energies in a different venue, though still teaching, but do so knowing I can never help consumers here personally with that info. It would be nice to be able to do that again like the old days.

Respectfully.

 

[Lula]

PS has changed a lot in the year or two I've been a lurker/member. I'm not sure what the reasons are for this. But among other changes, I see fewer and fewer trade members participating, which I think is really sad. The high rate of participation of trade members and the debates between trade members and consumers about diamond cutting minutia were what inspired me to join PS. That's largely ended, and what few discussions have ensued seem to result in the same bashing between one or two members.

And with the loss of longtime posters such as Lorelei, Ellen, Glitterata, and strmrdr (during his prosumer posting days) -- among others -- on RT, I find that RT is an echo chamber of its former self.

There is an odd combination of pettiness and political correctness that has overtaken many of the forums, imho. Maybe it's the economy, but people just seem touchy and mean-spirited.

But by far the biggest turnoff for me has been the elevation to celebrity status of certain vendors, to the point where any criticism of those vendors results in an "off with their heads" defense. There used to be a lot more variety on PS; now everyone seems to be promoting the same few designs from the same few vendors -- again, maybe the bad economy makes people less likely to take risks. Anyway, I know I've seen enough photos of cushion-cut-diamonds-set-in-a-dainty-platinum-setting to last me a lifetime!

 

[Matata]

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO, way to go Todd

Oldminer had a marvelous suggestion. Take the discussion off-line, knock out some ideas, and let the boss, Andrey, decide what will work in his vision of where he wants PS to go and how.

 

[Matata]

Oops, forgot to add that from years of experience in organizational management/efficiency, human resources, policy administration and writing & editing, I can say that it's much much better to have a few clearly written rules with broad application than many obtuse ones that are narrowly applied.

 

[Karl_K]

And with the loss of longtime posters such as Lorelei, Ellen, Glitterata, -- among others -- on RT, I find that RT is an echo chamber of its former self.

That is a much bigger problem than fewer trade members posting. (I removed myself from your list but thank you for thinking of me :} )

 

[AGBF]

Participating on the forums is a lesson in human relations. A crash course in the school of hard knox.

Jonathan-It sounds like the title of a children's book, but one could say, "How the Rhino Got His Name" is the story of you learning that lesson. I watched it happen...on another forum in the far distant past!

AGBF

 

[Rhino]

Participating on the forums is a lesson in human relations. A crash course in the school of hard knox.

Jonathan-It sounds like the title of a children's book, but one could say, "How the Rhino Got His Name" is the story of you learning that lesson. I watched it happen...on another forum in the far distant past!

AGBF

LOL I remember it all too clearly Deb. We have some great memories of those days eh? I can still recall some of your old avatars too from back then.

 

[WinkHPD]

Personally, I think the biggest thing holding back many trade members other than lack of time is that because I say so is never an acceptable answer.
Many over the years have posted: I say so and I have 20 years experience........ the overwhelming response is *yawn* so prove it.
If they step up to the plate they last but many just leave.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Good in my opinion because PS needs experts who are willing and able to explain things.

I am just getting started reading this thread and while still on the first page, I have heard several great comments.

As a vendor I want to also venture forward a comment that may well have been stated after page one.

It is difficult to be here as a vendor and appear to know what you are talking about if you have not been here for a while. I will venture that 90% plus of the vendors in this country do not know as much about cutting as the average prosumer here does. Heck, once an average consumer has been here for more than a month, they might well know more about diamond cutting than most vendors in this country.

It is embarrassing to me, and to many others in the trade, but there are no continuing education requirements to be a jeweler. Heck, there are no educational requirements at all to be a jeweler.

When I got here, I was pretty well educated, but in order to keep up with what was being presented here, I had to go to a lot of continuing education classes. (I first met Neil Beaty in person at an AGS program about their then new ASET and their new software for diamond cut grading. Meeting him in person only added to my great respect for him.)

It is not only time consuming to be a participating vendor here, but it is nerve wracking. If you get it wrong, it is there, in black and white for a LONG time.

So yes, I agree with Karl completely, it is good to have experts here who can explain things, but ...

It can be very difficult to be that expert. Many simply are not willing to take the time and the effort that it takes to state an opinion and then to defend it against those who would tear them down because it suits the agenda of the tearer downer.

Personally, I think it is critical to Pricescope that we find a way to encourage more vendors to participate and to encourage the free and open discussion of ideas. This may be difficult to accomplish when you consider that much of what we believe today about cutting was not even remotely understood as recently as five to fifteen years ago, and we will understand even more about it in the years to come.

When you consider that even for a gemologist there is no continuing education requirement within the trade it becomes easier to understand why someone who got their degree even just a few years ago sounds so out of it when they start to profess to know it all completely and then leave in a huff when they get slapped down for doing so.

I have seen some of the best minds here, such as John Pollard, come, learn and go on to learn more and more until even the experts consider him an expert to know that it is possible. What I do not know, is how do we encourage others to do the same, rather than discourage them for being mere mortals when they arrive.

Wink

 

[Kaleigh]

I don't have experience with the ole PS of yore, so I can't comment on the changes over time.I don't think that putting a "TRADE MEMBER" label on trade members' posts is really sufficient, if what we are looking for is a declaration of a poster's interests. I don't have a problem with Garry not declaring his part-ownership of PS (and he is pretty transparent about that), but I do think that there should be more clarification of a person's ROLE within the trade. In some cases it's pretty obvious (eg. denverappraiser) but I think it would be valuable for posters seeking advice to see whether the advice given is coming from an appraiser, a jeweller, a business manager, a gemologist, or a specific combination of the above (rather than just "[Name] - [Business name] - [Website]"). To seasoned PS members this information is obvious but I can imagine that a newcomer would not necessarily know or be able to readily work it out.

I assume that it would be technically difficult to do this anywhere apart from the signature file, but ideally it would be watermarked on posts.

All the RD/Kenny/CCL/whoever else stuff is getting really tiring. In fact, that conflict alone is one of the reasons why I find PS less appealing than previously. Seriously, guys - we know you don't agree with each other. The rest is just dross, and it's uninteresting-to-read dross that clogs up other threads. I think it is enough for experts/prosumers/consumers to just state their opinions, and leave it at that. After all, it is an internet forum - it is entirely made up of the subjective opinions of participants. Established members know that certain entrenched conflicts exist; they don't need to be played out ad nauseam in threadjack after threadjack. I do not want to block any of these posters as I think they have fun/useful/educational things to say a lot of the time, but geeeeeeeez guys - the argy bargy is boring, and irritating to encounter in threads where it's not necessarily expected. If there is a concern amongst the involved parties that a new poster might be being done a terrible injustice by reading the advice of an adversary, it is enough to state one's own opinion, and acknowledge that one's view is in conflict with another poster. Leave it at that. Be civil. Dead horse, etc.

I can understand why PS requires pictures taken by vendors to be de-identified (kind of like drug company merchandise and doctors...insidious advertising) but I think that photos should be credited. Watermarking would solve the problem of photos being appropriated by 3rd parties (eg. eBay sellers etc) but I think that they significantly detract from the viewing pleasure of the community - we are here to oooh! and aaah!, after all!

A number of consumers/posters have been saying a version of the same thing throughout this thread. I don't recall anyone addressing our concerns. If you attract more trade people and the consumers have left this forum because their concerns have been ignored, there won't be a PS. The "attacks" have gone both ways. Any vendor attacking consumers needs to be banned. We have a "report concern" button. Use it. Now we need that button to produce swift results. Please pay attention, we are leaving this board because of this type of behavior, regardless of the source

Not only are many leaving , but many have left and have been gone for quite a while. Huge loss to PS. So ditto to everything Marian said. I'll go back to lurking..

 

[John P]

And with the loss of longtime posters such as Lorelei, Ellen, Glitterata, -- among others -- on RT, I find that RT is an echo chamber of its former self.

That is a much bigger problem than fewer trade members posting.

I also miss the valuable consumer warrior-poets of the past who have moved on. But I see talented newcomers working hard to educate themselves and take up the torch... For that torch to burn brightly it must be fueled by forward-moving and topical discussion points; many of which were brought forward in the past by professionals or consumers closely in-touch with professionals. In that sense I think these things are connected: Pricescope is a symbiosis, and while consumers are the main event here, and consumer-interests drive the forum, I believe contributing trade members (like plants? ) provide elements vital to a healthy and current forum atmosphere.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Revisiting this thread's original post:

We have noticed that fewer trade members participate regularly now than some years ago. And we hear that potential new members worry about joining because the rules are strict.

So how can Pricescope (1) increase the participation of existing trade members and (2) attract new trade members?

The pages of this thread are filled with thoughtful suggestions that could potentially help with #1. What about #2? (Neil had a few on p1 - others?)

I would word it how to attract the right kind of trade members.
We do not want people nor need people who feel it is their lives duty to defend the trade and the old ways of doing things. We have to many of those already.

PS has always been about doing things differently and giving consumers the power.
That is a hard thing for many in the trade to handle.
Being successful on PS takes time, dedication, and a lot of work.
Most of all it takes the right attitude.
Honestly there are very few who will even try, how to attract them is a good question with a lot of complex answers.

I know a lot of great discussions took place years back, but inferring current discussions are lacking, based on comparison seems to slight a lot of great discussions of recent vintage.
Karl- a few point I'd ask you to clarify:
1) where are all these traditionalists you speak of?
2) Regardless of their views, isn't the goal to encourage more tradespeople to post here? ( as long as they are honest, and respect forum rules)
3) you are speaking in plural- which "we" are you referring to.
From what I can tell each of us posts on our own.

 

[yssie]

We've got some potted thistle that's doing nicely, folks

 

[Karl_K]

And with the loss of longtime posters such as Lorelei, Ellen, Glitterata, -- among others -- on RT, I find that RT is an echo chamber of its former self.

That is a much bigger problem than fewer trade members posting.

I also miss the valuable consumer warrior-poets of the past who have moved on. But I see talented newcomers working hard to educate themselves and take up the torch... For that torch to burn brightly it must be fueled by forward-moving and topical discussion points; many of which were brought forward in the past by professionals or consumers closely in-touch with professionals. In that sense I think these things are connected: Pricescope is a symbiosis, and while consumers are the main event here, and consumer-interests drive the forum, I believe contributing trade members (like plants? ) provide elements vital to a healthy and current forum atmosphere.

Yes there are many up and coming pro-sumers but many of them have left also for the same reason.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Revisiting this thread's original post:

We have noticed that fewer trade members participate regularly now than some years ago. And we hear that potential new members worry about joining because the rules are strict.

So how can Pricescope (1) increase the participation of existing trade members and (2) attract new trade members?

The pages of this thread are filled with thoughtful suggestions that could potentially help with #1. What about #2? (Neil had a few on p1 - others?)

I would word it how to attract the right kind of trade members.
We do not want people nor need people who feel it is their lives duty to defend the trade and the old ways of doing things. We have to many of those already.

PS has always been about doing things differently and giving consumers the power.
That is a hard thing for many in the trade to handle.
Being successful on PS takes time, dedication, and a lot of work.
Most of all it takes the right attitude.
Honestly there are very few who will even try, how to attract them is a good question with a lot of complex answers.

Karl you basically just posted what I was thinking and in a more concise manner.

But I do have a question for you as you have been here a long time:

To attract the the strong educating kind of trade how does that happen?

(1) Do they have to start on PS that way and were good educators from the beginning?
(2) Are some mostly "self promotional" at the beginning and gradually become better educators as they learn what works best in this community?

I don't think its black and white either some will always be better educators than others and support their arguments better by putting in more effort and preparation time. I see the need for a minnimum educational standard to justify the free promotion. I have seen several recently in RT who really didn't meet the standard and have been reprimanded by admin(for various reasons) or challenged by consumers and then subsequently disappeared.

However over in CS there are many new ones who have been helpful and less self promotional from their very first post.

How to create 10 of each, John Pollard, Diagem, Serg, Garry Holloway, Old Miner, Denverappraisor, Karl K, Paul Slegers and Wink, Rhino, Coatimundi (sorry if I missed anyone) they readily come to mind as good educators in different disciplines.

 

[Rockdiamond]

If the goal is 10 Johns, you basically already have that- because John has been very effective at sharing his knowledge set- which is frequently referred to. The same for some of the others ccl mentioned.
The thing that will make the site more rounded is having more input from people who bring different perspectives.

 

[Matata]

But I do have a question for you as you have been here a long time:

To attract the the strong educating kind of trade how does that happen?

(1) Do they have to start on PS that way and were good educators from the beginning?
(2) Are some mostly "self promotional" at the beginning and gradually become better educators as they learn what works best in this community?

I don't think its black and white either some will always be better educators than others and support their arguments better by putting in more effort and preparation time. I see the need for a minnimum educational standard to justify the free promotion. I have seen several recently in RT who really didn't meet the standard and have been reprimanded by admin(for various reasons) or challenged by consumers and then subsequently disappeared.

However over in CS there are many new ones who have been helpful and less self promotional from their very first post.

How to create 10 of each, John Pollard, Diagem, Serg, Garry Holloway, Old Miner, Denverappraisor, Karl K, Paul Slegers and Wink, Rhino, Coatimundi (sorry if I missed anyone) they readily come to mind as good educators in different disciplines.

I'd like to put in my 1 cent. Please forgive the intrusion. All of those people you mentioned started out with different levels of skills and created a niche as they matured and became more experienced. You can't create them; they will evolve of their own accord. I suppose PS could create minimum educ. standards or start a mentor program where the folks you mention could volunteer to guide newbies but that may add too much complexity to the board and I doubt any of them have time on their hands to do so. Such systems may also restrict or prohibit creative thinkers who are new to their field yet may well be the discoverer of the next cutting edge something.

If we keep the board open to any tradesperson to wishes to contribute, they will, through attrition based on their knowledge or lack thereof, either become respected or go away or limit their contributions to specific areas where their knowledge is sufficient. You've stated above there have been reprimands and challenges to those who you feel don't meet a minimum standard. That in itself is a teaching moment to consumers and tradespersons alike and I think it is a valuable lesson that should not be lost.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

One difference between PS and other forums I visit is that PS makes a point of operating in isolation, and forces its members to post as if this form is in isolation, when in fact, that is not how the internet works. Other forms have become more involved with their internet community. One forum I visit partners with other internet forums and shares topics, and has links to similar sites. The fact that vendors and consumers alike have to pretend that PS is the only internet community in existence makes you really have to think about what you are posting about and really edits your thoughts.

Hi, I read your post with interest and agree with much of it.
I wanted to comment on this part.
At one time it was a war almost the entire diamond industry against Pricescope.
It is still hated in some parts of the industry but as internet sales have grown many have been forced to accept it as a valid part of the diamond trade.
During the worst of the attacks both consumers and trade retreated into the site.
As a consumer I was banned from a couple diamond sites for no other reason than I was posting here.
That is one reason why even today PS is self-contained. The other reason is it strives to be able to answer any and all questions anyone may have about diamonds and jewelery.

Thanks for your reply and the background story.

While I think PS strives to answer all questions, I do feel the need to get information from elsewhere. I have always felt that more prospectives offer a better insight to what is going on. In my profession, I don't use one peer reviewed website that summaries all the medical conditions in my practice. While it is good for most things, and really tries to be a "one stop shop," There are better websites for certain things, and I use what works best for that situation.

I lurked on PS for several months before I started posting and was reading about sapphires. I actually found the most useful information in some of the older posts. The debates and frankness was more useful to me than the more modern posts. And because I had concern from bias (I noticed a few vendors were favored and others were disregarded after making my first post), I made a point to do research elsewhere to make sure I was not getting a one-sided story. I could not find any sources through PS. But PS is not in isolation, and a simple google will tell you what else is out there.

I am not sure what kind of wars are still going on, or if they are. But it is very hard to be a part of a community, and to ask a community to take interest in you when you isolate yourself from it. I have always been taught the best way to reach a community is to get out there and become a part of it.

 

[Karl_K]

But I do have a question for you as you have been here a long time:

To attract the the strong educating kind of trade how does that happen?

(1) Do they have to start on PS that way and were good educators from the beginning?
(2) Are some mostly "self promotional" at the beginning and gradually become better educators as they learn what works best in this community?

It is really about mindset more than anything else.
Someone who is helpful and considerate on the stuff they know while learning the rest will get far.
Those that think they know everything and/or are rude and inconsiderate wont last long at all even if they know a lot more than the helpful and considerate person.

Wink's posted above his experience, he rose to the top quicker than any vendor in PS history and did it based on attitude and relationships and a whole lot of hard work.

That it is mindset goes for pro-sumers and up and coming pro-sumers also.
It takes a lot of work to build trust and relationships no one gets instant "trusted expert" or "trusted pro-sumer" status it has to be earned over time.
A sure way to destroy that status is to be rude and or inconsiderate to consumers.

 

[Kaleigh]

But I do have a question for you as you have been here a long time:

To attract the the strong educating kind of trade how does that happen?

(1) Do they have to start on PS that way and were good educators from the beginning?
(2) Are some mostly "self promotional" at the beginning and gradually become better educators as they learn what works best in this community?

It is really about mindset more than anything else.
Someone who is helpful and considerate on the stuff they know while learning the rest will get far.
Those that think they know everything and/or are rude and inconsiderate wont last long at all even if they know a lot more than the helpful and considerate person.

Wink's posted above his experience, he rose to the top quicker than any vendor in PS history and did it based on attitude and relationships and a whole lot of hard work.

That it is mindset goes for pro-sumers and up and coming pro-sumers also.
It takes a lot of work to build trust and relationships no one gets instant "trusted expert" or "trusted pro-sumer" status it has to be earned over time.
A sure way to destroy that status is to be rude and or inconsiderate to consumers.

Bingo.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It's probably not a well known fact for newer members to the forum, but Price Scope was more or less launched when most of us old guys got kicked off of another forum for challenging the censorship of my old friend Rhino of GOG; he'd been kicked off of the forum for "self-promotion" in the form of writing a one sentence update along the lines of "I realize that there are several threads which are directed at me which require a response; the East Coast is in the middle of a blizzard right now and my access to the internet is limited; I'll respond to everything in due time when regular access to the internet (and power) is restored." (paraphrasing)

As I recall, Jonathan never got that chance... He was kicked off the forum for self-promotion, for starting a thread that was all about him. I initiated a thread that had something to do with censorship and tyranny, I was immediately kicked off the forum. I forget who followed next, but it became a kind of honor to speak up and get knocked off the forum. And we all ended up here on PS, by invitation and with the promise of not having to worry about such things in the future.

Those were the Glory Days of PS; there were some exceptional conversations (heated debates) and it was all about the learning curve and advancement of cutting technology. We didn't all agree, far from it, but that was part of the fun. We would vehemently defend our positions and then follow it up with a private phone call or an email to the person we were challenging and discuss the matter in-depth like a bunch of (drunk) scholars debating quantum physics or something like that... and we would meet up at trade shows and laugh about how much fun we were having and how much we were learning from each other, because you see, before the magic of the forums, we didn't have a place to get together and discuss our beliefs and ideas... and then came "the rules" and I suppose that they came for a reason, but "the rules" have made the playground a less interesting place to visit, I find it difficult to "be myself" and express myself freely, to think out loud, when there is the fear that the thought police will tap me on the head and say don't do that again... but I must also say that the current PS admin, et al, does so in a much better manner than the final attempts of the original PS admin - at the end, I began to wonder whether they were losing touch, or possibly if they had forgotten what the original premise of PS had been... Perhaps in much the same way the reflection of our country is but a glimmer of the original (or at least reported) premise of this great nation? Is it the laws that have messed up our nation? Or is the lawyers? The politicians (who are lawyers)? Is there even a difference? There weren't many rules (laws) to follow when PS was new, but then again, there were fewer members and the problems seemed to resolve themselves... Maybe all we need is a bit more rope Andrey

P.S. in the spirit of what I think "this" is all about... I wrote this; I didn't review it; I truly enjoyed doing so; it feels like "the old days" and yet there is this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that is screaming "don't hit submit, you fool, you're not being PC and somebody is going to be offended". Oh hell, I just don't care. Oh yea, that feels good. I think I'll call Wink and tell him so... Then I'll call John P. and email Paul, then I'm going to call Jon over at GOG and say "that felt good" and maybe I'll call one or two of "the others" who don't post anymore and they'll say "you know Todd, that was just dumb". YEA

Thanks Todd.
A great historic review.
Now ....... How do we get back there .....what meaty topics could we all agree to disagree on, to chew the fat?
What rules did you fear violating with the Submit fear?