Trade Participation on Pricescope

[Circe]

I just wanted to offer a few observations from someone who is new to Pricescope, but participate in a few other forums similar in stature to PS, and I’m offering 3 points as a contrast. You'll probably be offended at some or all points.

1. Moderation - My "home" forum has extremely good moderation, with a small army of volunteer mods, and small paid staff. And it's a forum devoted to heavy duty number crunching, statistical analysis and simulations for a video game, so you can image the potential for flame wars coming from young (mostly male) geeks. There's about 300,000 members, maybe about 1,500 simultaneous right now, and peak simultaneous users was over 22,000. It's not that big compared to some of the other sites that I frequent, but it's the highest quality.

The mod staff is far more draconian about shutting down useless topics and handing out infractions to posters (bans are handed out for 1-, 2-, 3-day and on a permanent basis.), and the forum's culture encourages people to report posts that are inflammatory or don't add any original or useful content. To give you some context, there are subforums called the "Dung Heap" where insipid and pointless topics moved, and the BanHammer where users infractions are posted. Infractions are categorized, which include, but are not limited to: Poor Grammar, Communicate clearly, Do not post unless you have something new and worthwhile to say, No whining, and You're an idiot. (The Dung Heap had a far more colorful name before the site started taking advertising from major corporation and subscriptions from premium users.)

Threads tend to be heavily consolidated, much like the Jewelry Pieces "Do you have a Favorite Gold Designer", except think hundreds of pages (like over 400) and anywhere between 300,000 to 2 million views. As a consequence, the forums are very clean, but it heavily relies on a good search tool.

Now obviously PS culture is different. The most obvious is that a great many of the posts here can be summed up as "ooh pretty", and there you can't even say "good idea" without adding something of substance. But I'm still surprised at how long it takes for a mod to step in here. Hours are not acceptable given how fast flame wars escalate. And this is a forum that is expecting professionals/trade people to participate? Why exactly should anyone subject themselves to ridicule, much less someone that is on the clock?

And if you’re going to have a trade person designation, allow them to list their qualifications as part of their visible profile on each post, not just a generic “Trade Person” banner, which is probably the most unprofessional looking label you can have for a professional. Was it designed on the original Mac? It will save some time, especially since a lot of the posts for forum unknowns tend to be thinly veiled versions of “Who the f___ are you?”

2. Group think – This happens in all the consumer forums I participate in, whether it’s fine watches, high end home theater, high end headphones (yes that exists), or fashion/style. For example, if I could tell your right now what a guy in looking for suit advice on a certain forum would be immediately steered towards Canali, Zegna, Ralph Lauren Black/Purple Labels, but only if it’s at least 80% off retail, because everything else is a complete rip off, or you can do much better going to a handful of internet made to measure houses that do offshore production in Asian factories.

Then, as long as you either sleep with a sales associate, and/or live within driving distance of Woodbury Common Outlet, and know the exactly delivery date, you too can score that 90% off last season’s suit/shoes. Then you can dismiss every else’s purchases as overpriced and tout the extreme superiority of buying off the internet/ebay/the resale subforum/superior shopping skills by detailed photographs showing off your perfectly tailored (by forum recommended artisans) purchases. Which is naturally paired with the perfect forum approved color palette shirt, tie, and pocket square combination (all bought on extreme sale or from the handful of approved internet dealers, some of which are members who went into the trade themselves), and presented in hopes you get chosen by one of the forum elite’s pictures of the week digest. Or better yet, you make the year-end best of the best thread.

Of course, any new person with a sense of style that’s outside the somewhat conservative nature of the forum will be re-educated into the forum’s overall aesthetic. The only people allowed to innovate are 5 or 6 well-established members. Many of the old members, genuine enthusiasts, and members of the trade lost interest and left the forum after an influx of members attracted to the site based on good press from the New York Times, Esquire/GQ, and other mass media outlets.

Does this sound familiar?

There are multiple problems, some bigger than others. The first of two is really related to my first point, and I can’t even phrase in a remotely diplomatic way at all: insecure small timers that denigrate all other people’s choices that aren’t similar to theirs. Small budgets aren’t the problem, it’s the people that try and ensure that their favored vendor/brand is regarded as THE ANSWER, and it’s enabled by lax moderation. And, over time, it poisons the discussion for everyone.

Lack of new experts, consumer or professional. Over time, if you don’t get fresh perspectives, then the site atrophies and dies. For a clothing forum, it needs professionals and people in the trade to explain all the hidden costs and the details of doing business with overseas factories, and how corners are cut by unscrupulous businesses. It needs consumers with a certain means to buy the $1,600 shoe (yes, men’s shoes easily rival women’s shoes for cost, but stylistically outlast them by decades), the $300 bespoke shirt, the $700 bespoke pants, and the $2,500 bespoke blazer and to be able to articulate how these items hold up in comparison to already respected brands/tailors/houses. Otherwise, you end up with a forum where you’ve memorized the forum approved recommendations and see that they’re still the same years later.

3. Design - PS 2.0 failed as a redesign. Period. I'm not talking about aesthetics either, but design in terms of function and usability. Get a usability expert and a real design house to redo the site. I can and will use PS 2.0 as an illustration on failed redesigns.

The two most important things on this site is the ability to communicate with knowledgeable posters and search the wealth of information that people spend hours of their lives creating. Yet, the search function is crippled and almost as bad as PS 1.0, and the structure is ridiculous. Why are there two search boxes, one of which disappears and reappears and does different things in different contexts? And why exactly is it so hard to get to advanced search? You have to run a search before you can even get to it easily. And then the diamond search is buried under resources. I could keep going, but that’s really enough for now, but the overall organization of the top level menu is strangely constructed. I’ll just leave it at this: it feels like PS 2.0 was redesigned by a web developer (programmer). If it was a designer, don’t ever use them again.

PS 2.0 does not encouraging people to stay because the overall user experience on this forum is subpar.

I'd probably get the Banhammer if I were on your first example site, but what the hell: this is good enough to deserve highlighting.

I particularly agree with Points 1 & 3, which are under the control of PS: the groupthink of it all sounds like it would be a little tough to moderate. But putting Neil's suggestions into effect would be a hell of a first step ....

 

[oldminer]

Rockdiamond: Please look at this website for a moment: http://limpidjewelry.com/ I did not use the term lipid as a pejorative and I did say that folks may find such a watery diamond to their liking. If so, they may well consider it beautiful or maybe they pity it enough to want to adopt it. I never thought of the orphan diamond metaphor until now, but it may play some counter-intuitive role in what people decide to pick. We don't really care if they think a particular diamond is beautiful so long as someone decides it is the "one" for them..... Cold, hard facts of business. Move the product. Even when I throw you a bone of agreement you seem to be able to find something to disagree with. You are making it even more difficult than necessary and maybe that is part of the overall issue. Promote the positive rather than look for the small negatives!

 

[Rockdiamond]

All due respect Dave, but I don't need any "bones thrown at me"

here's the more pertinent quote of your prior post

but when it comes to grading and unquestioned quality of brilliance, those diamonds graded as top cut do look superior to others in many ways. Not everyone agrees 100%, but the principles of this are solidly grounded.

These are NOT scientifically grounded principles, rather commercially grounded principles.
There's a HUGE difference.

 

[Karl_K]

What gets me is the number of trade members that think it is all about them.
PS success has always been that it was not about trade members.
If an expert wants to come here only to discuss technical issues or to ridicule technical issues then they do not serve a useful purpose to what PS is really about.

David I have been doing my best to ignore you but Kenny and ccl and other consumers are what this forum is about, not a place for you to push your agenda. When I see you talking down about them that is what is wrong, not the lack of trade members.
Sorry we need trade members that build up consumers not try and knock them down.

That goes for everyone else also in the trade also, either your helping consumers grow or your counter productive. (many of you are helping them grow, Bravo!!!)
I got where I am today in the diamond world because trade members here helped me learn and grow and a lot of hard work on my part.
Those are the trade people we need, not those who are just here to sell, push an agenda or get research validation.
Research validation was a fun sideline but was never what the forum was about.
I think it still could be a fun and useful sideline but not in consumers threads.

 

[oldminer]

Rockdia; No, these grades and tools are based on human observation studies and grounded in fact. A vast majority of people in the studies found certain characteristics more attractive than others. This in no way detracts from the valid point both you and I make that beauty is subjective and in the eye of each beholder. We agree that consumers have a right to make a choice based on what they prefer, but there is no reason to deny that human perception studies that were done have no validity or never happened.

People who are in business can choose to use grading systems and studies as business models or attibutes of their business. There is nothing wrong with it. You use GIA reports on fancy color diamonds for the purpose of proving the depth of color and the quality of color in your business, so why question the right of other businesses to use grading systems that they perceive as equally valid. A pale yellow or pink diamond may be perfect for one person and not nearly colorlful enough for many other people. You and I and everyone else must be free to choose the systems and grading structures we find useful to us in business.

I hereby reclaim my bone....... I will toss you no more treats. Sorry if you were insulted by my poor attempt at being nice, courteous, welcoming, humane, caring, sharing....or whatever. Mea culpa!

 

[slg47]

RD I have seen posts where you mention the GIA Ex study as being scientific (the one where they showed stones to lay people and used their opinions). Here you seem to be contradicting yourself? Or are you just against the prosumers here who point out the fact that GIA Ex has a wide variety of different appearances based on the angles?

With regards to what Garry calls 'redirects', perhaps this is not in the spirit of PS. I am guilty of this too-but if I were shopping and there was a better, lower priced alternative, I would want someone to tell me about it. Perhaps a better way would be to say 'you may be able to save more by shopping online'. It is hard to recommend vendors other than the PS vendors who get recommended time and time again because those vendors are providing the information (ASET, video, photos, etc...) that prosumers and consumers need to make informed decisions.

 

[Jim A.]

Well RD they are. Note that he's refering to cut GRADING, and know that cutting facet is not a freeform art. It is by design based on geometric angles to bend light. Adding to, or taking away from these angles affect the dispersion of the finished diamond. This also includes table size as well as girdle thickness, facet shape, number of facets, and facet placement. All of these have to be considered in grading to establish value. All of these listed above will affect the brilliance of your diamond. Top cut grades only go to the ones that meet these requirements, and carry a perfect polish.
Now diamonds that do not meet all the standards of top cut can still recieve a high grade, and will offer a high value. Just not top cut. Unlike color of a natural diamond, cut can be changed to recieve a top cut rating - but only at the cost of weight.

 

[risingsun]

^^^ccl~ I have seen this comparison before. I dont think it is a good respresentation of a HOF IS. I've used my IS on a number of HOF stones and they do not look like this. Could 8* be a bit biased in their comparison? Their painted girdle is another subject entirely. I didn't mean to get us on a threadjack. I just wonder if HOF and other B&M people would feel welcome to post or feel set upon as soon as they started expressing their opinions. Many of us have been here a long time. We are not always welcoming to newcomers [trade], who are trying to understand our culture. I have been guilty of being over reactive myself and I'm working on changing that. OTOH, if someone turns out to be a shill, out they go

ETA: I can't answer your question about why they don't provide certain information. I had some questions, recently, and spoke with their Director of Education. She was quite helpful.

HOF is perfectly welcome to post here and if I were them I'd write an article to start their first post and thread. I am sure if it is educational it should be accepted. You've put up a defense for HOF now lets see if you can convince them to participate.

I was just reading the thread for which you provided a link. You and I have had this same conversation before, with the exception of HOF participating in this forum. I believe this is known as a bald snark

No idea what a bald snark is I was serious they should write an article where they can sum up the virtues of their brand. This could be a springboard to their participation in pricescope. I think the PS admin and mods are welcoming such submissions from brand names.
If I was a director of education I'd welcome the free exposure. You could even write it or help them do it.

Thats it I'm not taking this threadjack any further until "Watch Rising Sun and CCL tear each other apart" and all related posts is split off into another thread.

Round 1 Ding

Sorry about the bald snark comment. I'm an Amazing Race fan and that's where it comes from. When I look at where and how this thread is going, it leaves me with no desire or motivation to continue to discuss HOF. I would welcome a private conversation between the two of us, but that is not possible. I also cannot see any benefit to HOF coming to this forum. I am in no position to ask them to step into this environment, nor would I. Everyone picks at everyone else ad infinitum.

Sabers at noon. My second will visit your second!

My part of this threadjack is finished, too

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl, let's give credit where credit is due- and by that, I mean the moderators of Pricescope.

MY agenda is consumer protection, and transparency in representation of diamonds. I strongly believe that if my primary goal was self promotion, I'd have been out of here a long time ago.
Is my participation here helpful to my company- yes it is.
Do I wish other people of like mind would come here and also "stand on my side of the fence", yes I do.
Karl not to bring up a sore subject, but I rejoined after you, and others responded to a question about a stone on our site. There was no discussion of the stone itself, rather an immediate trashing of me, and my company.
"His stones are wonky" was the phrase I believe you used.

How many times are consumers told to buy an aset to see if they're getting a well cut diamond?
How many times have consumers been warned away from stones GIA graded EX cut grade?
How many times have honest B&M jewelers, who have a lot of experience selecting the best cut diamonds by eye, relegated to the heap of shmoes selling poorly cut junk, simply because they don't use methods you agree with.

If reflector technology is so great, where is it on a GIA report?

slg- if we look at the methodology, GIA's extensive survey was done in a scientific manner.
That, in itself does not make the results "right"- or a scientific fact.
But it IS a fact that more well respected professionals trust, and use GIA than do AGS.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Rockdia; No, these grades and tools are based on human observation studies and grounded in fact. A vast majority of people in the studies found certain characteristics more attractive than others. This in no way detracts from the valid point both you and I make that beauty is subjective and in the eye of each beholder. We agree that consumers have a right to make a choice based on what they prefer, but there is no reason to deny that human perception studies that were done have no validity or never happened.

People who are in business can choose to use grading systems and studies as business models or attibutes of their business. There is nothing wrong with it. You use GIA reports on fancy color diamonds for the purpose of proving the depth of color and the quality of color in your business, so why question the right of other businesses to use grading systems that they perceive as equally valid. A pale yellow or pink diamond may be perfect for one person and not nearly colorlful enough for many other people. You and I and everyone else must be free to choose the systems and grading structures we find useful to us in business.

I hereby reclaim my bone....... I will toss you no more treats. Sorry if you were insulted by my poor attempt at being nice, courteous, welcoming, humane, caring, sharing....or whatever. Mea culpa!

How about throwing me the steak, and you keep the bone Dave?

I have, on many occasions pointed out what I consider to be errors on GIA reports, when I see them.
I have never attempted to discredit any seller because they use aset.

Let's remember that the GIA cut grade is not linear, such as color and clarity grading.
There's a plateau which is GIA ex cut grade.
In many cases the "drop off" from EX to VG is so very slight as to be completely impossible to see naked eye.

 

[Karl_K]

slg- if we look at the methodology, GIA's extensive survey was done in a scientific manner.

Read again. They used mostly people with preconceived notions of what a well cut diamond should look like.
That is a huge no-no in a truly scientific study.
That is like going to a global warming convention and doing a survey on if global warming is man made.

But enough being off topic for now.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Point well taken Karl- you're correct.

also wanted to point out that there's no hard feeling whatsoever on my part.
We've had our disagreements in the past, but you're a tremendous addition to the site- and I admire your work

 

[MarkBroumand]

Example 1: A trade member posting photos from his inventory is seen as promoting, not educating. But sometimes photos are useful or necessary.

I am new here on PS and my 1st post was reprimanded for this reason. I posted a picture in order to illustrate something and added no link or text to it in order to stay as neutral as possible. So where is the line drawn?

Someone mentioned an image library, maybe that could work.

Well, I definitely felt discouraged in terms of continuing to participate, but I am glad to see this topic come up.

Now I know a lot of people are feeling the crunch, and think that by sharing experiences, we will be able to come up with plausible solutions.

I, for one, remain optimistic!

 

[Rhino]

Caught this post from you Andrey and glad you are asking for input. I haven't read all 4 pages but I'll just say this. I've been here since PS's inception and have seen it go through these changes over time with the rules getting stricter and stricter for vendors.

This forum thrived most when educated input was free to be posted in the effort to help the consumer (or whoever was asking) learn the answers to the questions they were posing.

I remember a time when I could give my honest educated opinion on a diamond or subject without fear of breaking rules. I also remember a time when I could compliment another vendor without having my hand slapped. Today these are freedoms I do not enjoy when I once did. I do not like when freedom of speech, when it is given honestly and with integrity is silenced. Everyone suffers as a result when freedoms are stripped and it is a subject I hold dear being a Veteran because I know people who have given their lives so I can enjoy the freedoms I share as a citizen of the United States of America.

While I understand the need for certain restrictions (like we don't want spammers or abuse like calling fire in a crowded movie theatre) the rules of this forum, in comparison to what it used to be and the freedoms we once enjoyed is now like a socialist/communist camp. At least for vendors like me who sincerely do want to contribute. Honestly though, the *will* to contribute like I once did has left my heart because it has been stripped from me for so long now.

My apologies for sounding blunt but I remember when these rules were being enforced and when I got reprimanded for complimenting another vendor or even saying nice things about a diamond (I generally would be silent on diamonds I didn't care about) I knew something was wrong behind the scenes. How can saying positive things about a person or a product be reason for reprimand? Forgive my skeptcism but I had also entertained the thought that a certain vendor had financial stake here too and was keenly interested in silencing me. Perhaps that's just paranoia on my part but there were obvious things taking place during that time that lead me to believe so which didn't add up.

Diamonds and diamond education are my passion and I do have a lot to contribute in way of diamond education and understanding. I am one of those old timers here who has given up on the idea of trying to share that information here on the forum which is why I am focusing my efforts via our videos and some new projects I am in the works of publishing.
I can't tell you how many times I've typed out responses to threads, answering questions but every time never publishing it and wasting valubable time because I suspected someone might think I'm self promoting. I can't tell you how many times I've read a post and can answer questions for consumers by posting them to links of diamonds or videos I've made specifically on the subject they're asking about that plainly answer the questions they are asking but can't because someone will "report it" as self promotion even when it plainly answers the person's question.

I was tempted to not even post this because I'm not a complainer but I sympathize with what John P. has posted and remember clearly the days when we used to enjoy the freedom to speak our minds and discuss and debate. If posting a link to something on our own site or even a competitors, if it is pertinent to the subject at hand and answers the persons question should be allowed. If a person is made to feel like they are walking on eggshells everytime they sit to repond to a post ... I'd simply just rather not when I can focus that productive time to something that will be published, enjoyed and appreciated; ultimately contributing to the betterment of someone's education without getting reported.

Kind regards,

 

[Dancing Fire]

So, what will be the rules for TEOA . . . this new, "Tear Each Other Apart" forum?

I wonder how much activity there will be.

i wanna see a rematch b/t ALJ & RD!!....

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

DF,

You keep mentioning that, please link me to the thread I want to get some popcorn and read about it.
Where is this thread?

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF,

You keep mentioning that, please link me to the thread I want to get some popcorn and read about it.
Where is this thread?

been so long ago don't think i can find it...

 

[BAM54321]

I think many of the 'old pros' planted their seeds long ago and are simply reaping the harvest now. Not that they don't deserve it, but it is what it is. Sure...they will water the plants and pull the weeds from time to time, let everybody know about a new tree they planted or some sweet fruit that is available, but they are past the breaking ground phase. Over the years, guard dogs have been established to protect the farm, so they rarely have to do the barking. New farmers pass by, see that the farm is well established and well guarded, but test the gates anyway to see if there is any way that they can get in to plant their seeds in the very fertile ground. The guard dogs, who never seem to sleep, spring into action and run them off. They fight back, but the guard dogs, being guard dogs, win. Now we are left with a few great farmers who have little incentive to actively work the ground...and their trusty guard dogs. Diamonds on this forum have been reduced to three vendors and two or three cuts placed in a setting made by one person. Open the gates to new vendors and unleash some of the less favored. Likewise, let the heavily favored defend their ground on a level playing field. Heated conversation and open competition is not a bad thing. For the record....I'm a buyer...not a seller.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

BAM,

You are giving an analogy that is well in line with my post on the previous page.

Live long,

 

[oldminer]

BAM54321, for the most part I think you are right about things. Also, I can understand where Jonathan of GOG is coming from, too.
The question is really, "How do particpants, moderators and site owners re-envigorate the place that so many of us have found so useful and beneficial?" The current situation is obviously less desirable than what it might be, but how to get to where we'd like to be from where we are has not yet been discovered. Would changing some of the limiting rule on what can be expressed or shown help to enliven debate and the flow of knowledge or would it have further negative effects? Would it be more useful if more sales pitches were to be permitted? I personally don't have a lot of input to give on how to make things be more positive or active. It is not my expertise at all. By not giving up, I am doing what I can to bring interest to discussions. Others should also commit to such a process and that would be potentially helpful.

I'll make an analogy with the US economy to the circumstances we find on Pricescope. Things are not going as well as they once did. In the US economy people are depressed, out of work, giving up looking for work, stuck in a dead end job, paying too much for health care, working from paycheck to paycheck....etc. We would all love things to pick up and the environment to seem brighter, but what can individuals do to make it happen? Very little. It is a slow process and seems as if it will never come in time. No doubt things will improve, but by the time they do many folks will have no faith left in the system. That's the US economy and hopefully Pricescope is not at the same level. Pricescope needs a boost, not a total recovery and re-make. It can happen, but it may take some restructuring and talented people to make a difference. Pricescope is about sharing knowledge while at the same time, allowing diamond sellers to make important sales. The sellers should be given the opportunity to make it lively and competitive. The participants should be able to recount their stories and ask their questions. Sellers need to be allowed to make the forums exciting and informative most likely as no one else can do it for them. Guys like Jonathan who have so much to offer probably should not have to use Vimeo as the place for movies to demonstrate legitimate aspects of diamonds. Why could it not be here? Other sellers would want to compete and it would bring a lot of involvement back.

Oh well, just thinking positive..................

 

[Allison D.]

I've watched this thread develop with great interest and have been trying to put my finger on the things I think have changed.

I think there are several factors at play. When I first joined as a consumer, AGS was the only lab even grading cut and it was merely parametric based, so there was still a lot left unexplained about the relationship between crown/pavilion angles. This left plenty of room for more learning and discussion. At that time, there were several active vendors and appraisers, and for the most part, behaving with professional courtesies was the norm and didn't have to be 'regulated'.

There were a few new vendors who arrived to participate, and those new vendors DID expand the stable of options here for clients. Unfortunately, one of two committed transgressions that caused the then-current admin to amp up the 'guarding of the proverbial henhouse'. As with most things, regulation wreaked as much harm as good. Rules begat rules begat rules, and much of the spirited debate fell victim to the "PC" brigade. Oddly enough, many strong bonds and much mutual respect was actually born from those spirited debates, so that diminshed as well once the climate yielded to the Barney-esque cumbaya flavor.

I concur with John that many of the increasing restrictions did have the effect of stifling the exchange of ideas and bring new material to the forum. Core members fell away because many of the exchanges that led to learning disappeared under the new regulation. The channel within which vendors can actually comment has narrowed to the point that it's difficult contribute at all without breaching one of them. There's also potential peril in contesting the then-current popular opinion; you can win the battle and lose the war, so to speak. "Lord of the Flies" comes to mind.

At the same time, things have slowed considerably on the cut grading front over the last few years as Paul mentioned, so there is less to debate about new developments.

Baldly put, PS has evolved into a place where not many (vendors OR consumer) say what they *really* think for fear of repercussions or retribution, and that's unfortunate. The lack of differing viewpoints has almost created an atmosphere of apathy. Stifling disagreements and discourse has been done SO successfully that no one speaks at all now - you can hear the proverbial crickets.

PS also went through a bit of an identify shift, too - what started as a consumer education site for diamonds moved away from that core. Less and less people who come to PS do so now because they want to learn about diamonds; they find us through some other interest. The net effect is that the community no longer has one prevailing common core, and so the demand or interest in vendor participation has diminished too.

Lastly, the development of other social network channels has lessened the impact of PS. People who don't fit well into the current 'flavor of the day' thinking who get tired of having to defend their preferences simply find other ways to connect with like-minded people.

I don't really know what the answer is. I do know that many times I've wanted to contribute to a thread and then thought the better of it, and I'm certainly sad about that. I do wonder how many times others feel that way too.

 

[kenny]

Today's vendor rules penalize everyone for the transgressions of a few, but they make moderation easier.
Treating all vendors equally may seem PC, but it is wrong IMHO and results in the problem that is the topic of this thread.
Vendors are not equal, some will behave well, some won't.

If there were only one general vendor rule like, "Don't promote your own business excessively" that would let the vendors out of jail but give the moderators more work.
I'd also publish that moderator's calls are final, and public discussions of moderator decisions are not permitted.

This will only work if the mods can do a delicate balancing act.
They have to allow X but forbid Y.
Of course the vendor that did Y will cry foul, not fair. Whaaaaaa!
They'll complain that Vendor X got do X etc.
That's when the mod's backbone comes in and the need to keep the eye on the goal and NOT TRY TO KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY.
They also many need more mods to handle the larger workload.

Some vendors will align themselves with PS goals, but some will not, so don't treat them all equally; treat the better-behaving ones better.
Favoritism is a good thing when you are favoring those who behave.

I think admin has to decide between doing what is best overall for the mission of PS or doing what is easiest for moderators

 

[clgwli]

Today's vendor rules penalize everyone for the transgressions of a few, but they make moderation easier.
Treating all vendors equally may seem PC, but it is wrong IMHO and results in the problem that is the topic of this thread.
Vendors are not equal, some will behave well, some won't.

If there were only one general vendor rule like, "Don't promote your own business excessively" that would let the vendors out of jail but give the moderators more work.
I'd also publish that moderator's calls are final, and public discussions of moderator decisions are not permitted.

This will only work if the mods can do a delicate balancing act.
They have to allow X but forbid Y.
Of course the vendor that did Y will cry foul, not fair. Whaaaaaa!
They'll complain that Vendor X got do X etc.
That's when the mod's backbone comes in and the need to keep the eye on the goal and NOT TRY TO KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY.
They also many need more mods to handle the larger workload.

Some vendors will align themselves with PS goals, but some will not, so don't treat them all equally; treat the better-behaving ones better.
Favoritism is a good thing when you are favoring those who behave.

I think admin has to decide between doing what is best overall for the mission of PS or doing what is easiest for moderators

Have you ever tried to moderate a board before?

Favoritism is a BAD thing. Trust me. What you say here goes against everything that a good moderator will do.

I've had to moderate friends and let me tell you that is really hard. I had one friend constantly causing trouble and kept thinking they could get away with things because I was a friend and most of the time they were on my good side.

They are no longer a friend because they expected me to side with them. They expected favoritism.

Honestly it sounds like you hope certain vendors will get preferential treatment and others won't. Sorry Kenny I've watched you far too long not to read into things.

Favoritism is bad and makes a whole board fail. I've seen it. So unless you've ever moderated or been an admin on a forum, I wouldn't ever say a thing like that ever. Favoritism leaves only the "chosen ones" to run and it won't matter what else anyone has to say.

I cannot say what should or should not be done on this forum, because I do not see what goes on behind the scenes. I have seen some pretty nasty comments stay which makes me wonder if this place is heavily moderated or not. But knowing how tough it is to moderate I have no clue the percentage of bad stuff gets found and removed. I know many times the comments will stay because no one reports it. At least from my experience I can say that.

 

[kenny]

"Favoritism" is favoring vendors who behave well and in alignment with the mission of PS.
It is the result of the vendor's own behavior.

Draconian rules like we have today result in shutting everyone up, the good and bad.
Today we treat the best as if they were the worst and that's why PS is dying when it comes to meaningful professional discourse.

People are equal before they do something.
After they do good or bad they are no longer equal and to treat them equally is PCness run amok.

 

[clgwli]

Kenny that isn't favoritism in my eyes. I agreed with a lot of what you said on this thread, but that comment about favoritism really sounds very naive to me.

To punish a vendor who doesn't follow rules has nothing to do with it. Favoritism is actually quite the opposite. If the vendor follow rules then they are fine. Adding in favoritism allows people to bend rules.

Personally i'd like to see more trade interaction but I am not a rule maker here and I don't know what moderators see here. That's why I won't say more. I would like more options for vendors to comment but I don't know how one can do it w/o people crying foul.

 

[Rockdiamond]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

 

[digitaldevo]

A perfect example of what many folks have stated about new trade persons posting for fear of attacks by existing members:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/evaluating-online-photos-vol-2.149952/page-2#post-2719512#p2719512//

Simply try to help others and give my greatly experienced opinion and get attacked with condescending comments from an existing member or another pretends to not know them when they know exactly who the person is just to undermine them! This is the exact thing this forum is currently known for and one of the exact reasons folks don't bother coming here. This is far more detrimental then any self promoting going on.

 

[Karl_K]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

A perfect example of what many folks have stated about new trade persons posting for fear of attacks by existing members:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/evaluating-online-photos-vol-2.149952/page-2#post-2719512#p2719512////

Simply try to help others and give my greatly experienced opinion and get attacked with condescending comments from an existing member or another pretends to not know them when they know exactly who the person is just to undermine them! This is the exact thing this forum is currently known for and one of the exact reasons folks don't bother coming here. This is far more detrimental then any self promoting going on.

Jamey,

Have you ever noticed how the tone of your posts and the argumentative nature of them leads to negative responses from others?

When you use capitals people interpet it as shouting.

Lots of great information in your posts but way too long as well.
When you write such long posts, the important point or points can be lost, its easy for someone with a differing viewpoint to pick up one unclear sentence and pick on that.

I actually said I agree with Michael_E when your post https://www.pricescope.com/communit...e-photos-vol-2.149952/#post-2717520#p2717520/ also nailed the point I agreed with. However your often caustic and long winded posting style makes it very difficult to understand and support your points.

I fail to see the relevance of the arguments you are having over in CS to admin policies. I have been reprimanded in the past for the same writing style you exhibit. I think lately the mods are very relaxed, but you are really crying foul? You would be the first to be censured if anyone in that thread.

You posted that here as support for allowing you to post photographs? Even ones for sale? I just don't get your argument.

 

[Rockdiamond]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.