Trade Participation on Pricescope

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.

RD
You can not really believe that tradespeople avoid Pricescope because people are mean to you????
It seems quite reasonable that consumers have a broader range of tolerance from moderators than tradespeople on a consumer advocate forum.
You are hardly a wimp?

Contributution to solutions would be welcome

 

[Rockdiamond]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.

RD
You can not really believe that tradespeople avoid Pricescope because people are mean to you????
It seems quite reasonable that consumers have a broader range of tolerance from moderators than tradespeople on a consumer advocate forum.
You are hardly a wimp?

Contributution to solutions would be welcome

GH- you honestly believe that any tradespersons seeing how I'm constantly harassed by ccl and Kenny would feel like this is a safe place to air opinions?

This atmosphere of intolerance fostered by Kenny, and CCL- who seems to think this is his own forum is a definite deterrent to other jewelers participating.

If you and I have a disagreement, it's a totally different thing.

 

[clgwli]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.

RD
You can not really believe that tradespeople avoid Pricescope because people are mean to you????
It seems quite reasonable that consumers have a broader range of tolerance from moderators than tradespeople on a consumer advocate forum.
You are hardly a wimp?

Contributution to solutions would be welcome

Just a comment from someone on the other side...

It does drive me away to have comments like that made about vendors. As in as far as I know neither of these people have bought from David so they don't have a negative review. They just seem to dislike him and put him down nearly every single chance they get.

Then I have had people imply that I am not educated because I bought from him. Or that my stone is only beautiful in bright spot lighting.

it happens way too much and drives me away from this place. I can't see how these people do not get in trouble for personal attacks. O

Because honestly it seems like Kenny has a personal issue with David and tries his best to tell people not to buy from him. And he states it like it's fact that people who have bought from David are never happy.

I don't get it.

 

[Rhino]

Hey Ken,

Just some thoughts on your post.

Today's vendor rules penalize everyone for the transgressions of a few, but they make moderation easier.
Treating all vendors equally may seem PC, but it is wrong IMHO and results in the problem that is the topic of this thread.
Vendors are not equal, some will behave well, some won't.

If there were only one general vendor rule like, "Don't promote your own business excessively" that would let the vendors out of jail but give the moderators more work.
I'd also publish that moderator's calls are final, and public discussions of moderator decisions are not permitted.

This will only work if the mods can do a delicate balancing act.
They have to allow X but forbid Y.
Of course the vendor that did Y will cry foul, not fair. Whaaaaaa!
They'll complain that Vendor X got do X etc.
That's when the mod's backbone comes in and the need to keep the eye on the goal and NOT TRY TO KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY.
They also many need more mods to handle the larger workload.

Some vendors will align themselves with PS goals, but some will not, so don't treat them all equally; treat the better-behaving ones better.
Favoritism is a good thing when you are favoring those who behave.

I think admin has to decide between doing what is best overall for the mission of PS or doing what is easiest for moderators

My thoughts are this. There should be two sets of "rules" imo. One for "general vendors" and also one for "participating vendors" ie. those who pay to advertise, list their diamonds etc.

General vendors should absolutely be allowed to contribute, participate, etc. under the current rules or as Andrey sees fit.

Vendors who financially contribute to the forum should be allowed more flexibility.

Not to the point of jumping in a thread and recommending their own diamonds over others but if they have content or know of links (be it on their own site or elsewhere) that answers the clients question to have the freedom to contribute their knowledge and information in a meaningful way that helps the person asking the question. This accomplishes 2 things in the end.

1. Motivation for general vendors to become participating vendors (bring in more capital for the support of this website) and
2. Bolster consumer confidence in those participating vendors because it gives those participating vendors incentive to post.

When I initially started participating on the forums back in 2000 my goal was simple. it was to help people in the best way I knew how. Over time we began making investments in education and technology to help find those answers to the questions we didn't know the answers to, again, to better serve the public. The Internet is a free market with the free and open exchange of ideas but when you take steps to silence voices, and particularly professionals who devote their lives to the study of the subject this is not good. Incentive and motivation needs to be given to trade members if you seek their participation. I like Dave Atlas' anaology of current administration and the ecomony. The more regulations you put on small business the more you stifle them. When you lift regulations you allow freedom to prosper and the open market to do what it does best.

With regards to jerks who will come on here and spam ... yea that will happen. But even if Andrey doesn't catch them at first the consumers on here aren't stupid and can smell a rat pretty quickly. The vendors who contribute meaningfully and with integrity will rise to the top. Things will take their natural course. This is not my forum and I have no say in any rules so I play by whatever rules are handed down and go with that. Bottom line though is if you want more vendor participation you must offer them incentive to post.

All the best,

 

[kenny]

I just wanted to take a moment to thank Andrey for opening up this important but delicate discussion.
I imagine it was not an easy decision and I respect you and your staff for making this a public discussion.

I'm sure the result will be a better PS.

 

[denverappraiser]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.

RD
You can not really believe that tradespeople avoid Pricescope because people are mean to you????
It seems quite reasonable that consumers have a broader range of tolerance from moderators than tradespeople on a consumer advocate forum.
You are hardly a wimp?

Contributution to solutions would be welcome

At the risk of being caught agreeing with David, I agree with David here. A significant number of posts are directed at him and are loaded with a level of hostility and venom from anonymous posters that would absolutely not be tolerated from anyone in the trade. David, you aren’t completely innocent here. You routinely post thing in the name of education that you KNOW are going to start a fight with the chorus, and, in my opinion, do it at least in part for that reason. It seems plausible that a prospective poster who is reading through the forum and considering if they want to play in this sandbox, especially one who generally agrees with David’s approach, would decide that it’s not worth the pain to post a dissenting opinion.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

[/quote]
Just a comment from someone on the other side...

It does drive me away to have comments like that made about vendors. As in as far as I know neither of these people have bought from David so they don't have a negative review. They just seem to dislike him and put him down nearly every single chance they get.

Then I have had people imply that I am not educated because I bought from him. Or that my stone is only beautiful in bright spot lighting.

it happens way too much and drives me away from this place. I can't see how these people do not get in trouble for personal attacks. O

Because honestly it seems like Kenny has a personal issue with David and tries his best to tell people not to buy from him. And he states it like it's fact that people who have bought from David are never happy.

I don't get it.

You probably never will.
You comments are just as biased as Kenny's and yet somehow you have convinced yourself they are more valid.

You post primarily in a colorless diamond threads yet make consistant references to your own yellow diamond.
I don't see how anyone could see your opinion as anything but a form of self validation, especially since you haven't conducted any controlled studies or demonstrated in depth knowledge of the studies performed by others.

My views and alliance on this board most closely fit with those of Paul Antwerp, John Pollard, and Rhino yet I haven't purchased a thing from any of them (bought and returned an AVC). I bought all of my wife's diamonds from ERD yet I rarely reccomend them these days except in my cushion guide.

Does that somehow make my advice biased or unbiased? I think neither but I've been accused of being a shill for GOG.

 

[Karl_K]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.

Why do I feel like im viewing a kindergarten class?
Maybe we need to add nap mats and baby wipes?

 

[Karl_K]

At the risk of being caught agreeing with David, I agree with David here. A significant number of posts are directed at him and are loaded with a level of hostility and venom from anonymous posters that would absolutely not be tolerated from anyone in the trade. David, you aren’t completely innocent here. You routinely post thing in the name of education that you KNOW are going to start a fight with the chorus, and, in my opinion, do it at least in part for that reason. It seems plausible that a prospective poster who is reading through the forum and considering if they want to play in this sandbox, especially one who generally agrees with David’s approach, would decide that it’s not worth the pain to post a dissenting opinion.

The problem is that David does not respect consumers so they have no respect for him.

 

[sillyberry]

I'm purely a consumer (and not much of one, to boot), but after reading this thread I'm left to wonder - what exactly are members of the trade supposed to participate about? Does PS want them to help consumers find diamonds they love? To answer general questions for consumers about diamonds without specific reference to purchasing stones? To discuss and advance diamond education on a higher, non-consumer level?

This isn't clear to me. I've only been a member of the site for a little over a year (plus I found it not because of an interest in diamonds but via searching about being anxious for my boyfriend to propose!) so I don't know much about these great debates in the mythical past. I do think it is important to clarify the ultimate goal, though, to determine what steps could/should be taken to make that happen.

 

[John P]

I have questions on another (related) tangent; in terms of professional/consumer relations - and motives.

Professionals have a clear affiliation listed in their signatures. In some ways that puts potential agenda or bias right out there for everyone to see. Consumers have no affiliation listed and it's assumed that they are motivated by the joy of helping others. In most cases I am sure that's true, but what happens when someone's desire for reputability/status gets in the way of clear communication?

Long ago I posted on a routine topic and received an irate email from an active (and very prominent) consumer poster. She was upset with what she perceived as public correction and said that I was undermining her reputation. She requested that I email her privately in the future before posting "against her." That was never my intent of course, but I soon realized her desire to be perceived as an expert was more important to her than providing accurate information. That was years ago, all healed now.

Still, from time to time I read posts where some of the advice given (by very strong posters) isn't quite accurate, or current, or complete. Nobody likes to have their expertise challenged so in many cases I wait for info to be added or corrected. In cases where I do decide to make an addition or clarification I try to step lightly... Still, no one can guarantee what the reaction will be.

My questions: For consumer enthusiasts still reading this thread - Do you mind having your advice clarified or updated? Do those of you with veteran status feel resentment if a trade member enters a thread with different or conflicting information? Imagine a correction being given by a trade member... now imagine the same correction made by a fellow consumer poster... Is there a difference in how you feel about who is making the correction?

There is no doubt that professionals contributing here get good feelings from helping - as well as potentially attracting business.
I think it's also fair to say consumers contributing here get good feelings from helping - as well as enjoying a measure of reputability and even status. Are those ends at odds sometimes?

 

[kenny]

... David, you aren’t completely innocent here.
You routinely post thing in the name of education that you KNOW are going to start a fight with the chorus, ...

But the fights result in several page threads, which keeps his sigline's link to his sales website in front of more eyeballs.
Clever.

Also pretending to be old fashioned and eschewing and claiming to not understand all that "confusing new-fangled techie stuff" quickly endears him to a very large demographic.
Clever.

The current PS vendor rules have traded vibrant meaningful professional discourse for this faux and farcical "discourse".
The same "technical discussions" over and over and over ad nauseam - and all just for eyeballs to the sales link.
It is sad to see this abuse of the spirit of PS tolerated, all so PS can maintain the appearance of tolerating diverse perspectives.

Change is desperately needed.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance.

Ken, I ask this with all due respect ( which in your case does not entail a lot)- but how do you tolerate yourself?

David that is totally uncalled for and totally unacceptable.

Karl ( and Kenny)- I apologize- however it's not exactly fair of you to note my post, while ignoring the behavior of Kenny, and CCL- which is a big part of the problem in the atmosphere here.
If you want other vendors and tradespeople here participating- with a goal of a variety of opinions, tolerance is a big key.

Kenny has made too many insulting remarks to count.

RD
You can not really believe that tradespeople avoid Pricescope because people are mean to you????
It seems quite reasonable that consumers have a broader range of tolerance from moderators than tradespeople on a consumer advocate forum.
You are hardly a wimp?

Contributution to solutions would be welcome

At the risk of being caught agreeing with David, I agree with David here. A significant number of posts are directed at him and are loaded with a level of hostility and venom from anonymous posters that would absolutely not be tolerated from anyone in the trade. David, you aren’t completely innocent here. You routinely post thing in the name of education that you KNOW are going to start a fight with the chorus, and, in my opinion, do it at least in part for that reason. It seems plausible that a prospective poster who is reading through the forum and considering if they want to play in this sandbox, especially one who generally agrees with David’s approach, would decide that it’s not worth the pain to post a dissenting opinion.

Neil,

If you were the moderator what rules if any would you propose to those who simply want to be heard and provide a dissenting opinion but who rarely pay respectful attention to the responses made by others? How would you deal with someone who rarely properly acknowledges or paraphrases the responses of others?

Leonid the old Administrator's response was to ban Rockdiamond and he was for several years. Andrey's response is one of tolerance but I can't help but feel that may not have helped the harmony of the Pricescope community. To give proper context I know several formerly active trademembers and long time posters who will make a quick exit from a thread and who refuse to actively participate in debates with Rockdiamond as they are fed up with his disrespectful posting style that wastes their time and the impact of their posts.

Dissenting informed opinions are healthy, I learn the most from those that challenge my views, but repeating the same basic and trivial unsupported arguments for lack of memory or because little attention is paid to what anyonelse has to say is bitter pill to accept for anyone who cares about this community. Even more disagreeable given that tradesmembers have to act professional at all times and cannot fight for consumers, they have their own interests to put ahead of such altrusitic defense of the community.

 

[Rockdiamond]

No Karl- but how about an atmosphere where knowledgeable professionals might be able to question the "majority viewpoint" in a broad range of discussions without fear of instant flaming. It's also quite out of line making a statement about my attitude towards consumers.
We've served many thousands, and the vast majority have been very satisfied. No one can please everyone, but we've done so to the extent that there are no complaints from consumers who have purchased from us, that I know of -ever- about our company posted on pricescope.

A large part of diamond grading- including cut- is subjective, as opposed to scientific. The main parts, for that matter.
Ccl will require all participants to have a Masters in optical engineering to discuss the manner of grading cut in a diamond.

There's nothing wrong with highly technical analysis of diamonds- it's awesome.
But not necessary to be able to buy really great diamonds, provided the other ingredients are there in the purchase process. The plotting and cutting of diamonds is a totally different story than grading or assessing what each of us finds beautiful.

While discussions about ray tracing and other highly detail aspect are great, I think a lot of people like a more direct and basic grass roots ( as it were) way of looking at diamonds.
I think it's a mistake to ask people to come up with scientific studies to validate their love of a diamond.

Neil- thank you for that- and yes I have not shied away from fights- and part of that has to do with who I am.
My motivation has a lot to do precisely with consumer protection. If one watches what goes on here- from a perspective that includes both being a consumer, and a seller- you realize that people , in some cases, are getting bad advice. Sometimes it's easy to correct- I've seen you do it many times Neil.
But there are other issues that are more about transparency in cut grading and preference that I find to be the problem, in an fair amount of cases.
I suppose if ccl and Kenny stopped badgering it would not be as lively- but I still have a viewpoint different enough from Jon- whom I respect tremendously- that lively discourse is still possible- if the environment allowed.
But my point is- if that did happen, maybe more tradespole either of like mind to me- or having other attitudes differing from the mainstream here would find a reason, and comfort level to post.

ETA- John- that was incredibly insightful.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

I have questions on another (related) tangent; in terms of professional/consumer relations - and motives.

My questions: For consumer enthusiasts still reading this thread - Do you mind having your advice clarified or updated? Do those of you with veteran status feel resentment if a trade member enters a thread with different or conflicting information? Imagine a correction being given by a trade member... now imagine the same correction made by a fellow consumer poster... Is there a difference in how you feel about who is making the correction?

Sir Jon I really hope if I have my facts wrong in a thread, or my opinion is off, you will correct me swiftly and you don't have to be nice about it. I don't care who corrects me, if anyone has has a factual correction to anything I say and can properly support the correction please do so. I will only respect you for it.

There are two experienced trademembers who have "ripped my opinion apart" on several occasions and since I respect their expertise so much it doesn't bother me at all and they certainly weren't nice about it. Sure it might sting for a minute but I take it as an opportunity to learn and correct my mistaken opinion.

 

[denverappraiser]

Neil,
If you were the moderator what rules if any would you propose to those who simply want to be heard and provide a dissenting opinion but who rarely pay respectful attention to the responses made by others? How would you deal with someone who rarely properly acknowledges or paraphrases the responses of others?

Leonid the old Administrator's response was to ban Rockdiamond and he was for several years. Andrey's response is one of tolerance but I can't help but feel that may not have helped the harmony of the Pricescope community. To give proper context I know several formerly active trademembers and long time posters who will make a quick exit from a thread and who refuse to actively participate in debates with Rockdiamond as they are fed up with his disrespectful posting style that wastes their time and the impact of their posts.

Dissenting informed opinions are healthy, I learn the most from those that challenge my views, but repeating the same basic and trivial unsupported arguments for lack of memory or because little attention is paid to what anyonelse has to say is bitter pill to accept for anyone who cares about this community. Even more disagreeable given that tradesmembers have to act professional at all times and cannot fight for consumers, they have their own interests to put ahead of such altrusitic defense of the community.

I don’t think I would change much in the way of regulating the way that RD, you, Kenny, Karl, Garry et.al. post. I’m a big fan of civility and I would advise the lot of you to simply stay out the fights with him and don’t rise to the bait but, in the end, allowing incivility is part of allowing open expression. It’s not worth the time and, as Kenny points out, I think it’s benefiting him more than you know. Personally I have no problem simply avoiding those thread and you’ll notice that I rarely participate in them.

I'm purely a consumer (and not much of one, to boot), but after reading this thread I'm left to wonder - what exactly are members of the trade supposed to participate about? Does PS want them to help consumers find diamonds they love? To answer general questions for consumers about diamonds without specific reference to purchasing stones? To discuss and advance diamond education on a higher, non-consumer level?

This isn't clear to me. I've only been a member of the site for a little over a year (plus I found it not because of an interest in diamonds but via searching about being anxious for my boyfriend to propose!) so I don't know much about these great debates in the mythical past. I do think it is important to clarify the ultimate goal, though, to determine what steps could/should be taken to make that happen.

This is a fast moving thread and I think Sillyberry’s excellent post may get lost in the fluff (It's only been 22 minutes since she posted and already we've had 5 responses after her). It’s reiterating opinions above by Paul, me, Dave and others. Is it even desirable to have the pros posting? Why? For the record, I think it is. Like most industries, there’s quite a bit of detail that only comes from years or even decades of practice. There’s real value in the thoughts of people who have personally manufactured thousands of pieces, who have invested millions of dollars of their own money in buying inventory, who have cut hundreds or thousands of stones, who grade stones on a daily basis, etc. To be sure there are things that can be learned theoretically or that can be picked up during the learning curve of shopping for one or two diamonds but this education leaves some definite holes. That means if we hear from a consumer who have a problem that’s a bit outside the mainstream, the answer lies with the pros. If the pros aren’t here, it lies with people who are guessing or, even worse, with folks who read the last few guesses, decided that now they know the answer and help to spread it along.

 

[slg47]

the issue is not that everyone needs a master's degree. the issue is that PS is a place where scientific discourse happens. posters are expected to back up their opinions with facts. dissenting opinions are welcomed but they need to be BACKED UP WITH DATA. simple opinions will get laughed at, and should.

 

[kenny]

I don’t think I would change much in the way that regulates the way that RD, you, Kenny, Karl, Garry et.al. post.
I’m a big fan of civility and I would advise the lot of you to simply stay out the fights with him and don’t rise to the bait.

It’s not worth the time and, as Kenny points out, I think it’s benefiting him more than you know.

Finally another person wakes up and smells the coffee.
I was beginning to think I was insane.

Besides refusing to be manipulated into sending eyeballs to that sales website, I've learned in the years I've watched those threads that no good ever results from intentionally flying into a web.

Maybe I'd talk to him after he deleted his sales link for, say, a year.

 

[John P]

Sir Jon I really hope if I have my facts wrong in a thread, or my opinion is off, you will correct me swiftly and you don't have to be nice about it.

Ok then. For starters I'm the John with the extra letter in my first name (Rhinoceros is such a long word that he only got 3 letters).

Just tugging your tail. Thanks for weighing in on the question. No one wants to post at the expense of someone's feelings, especially when there are such passionate posters here, but clear communication should be the priority. I hope the majority of consumer regulars feel as you do.

 

[Karl_K]

No Karl- but how about an atmosphere where knowledgeable professionals might be able to question the "majority viewpoint"

There is a vast difference between expressing a different viewpoint than being rude and disrespectful then crying no one will let me express a different viewpoint.
The victim card will not work.

 

[Karl_K]

I'm purely a consumer (and not much of one, to boot), but after reading this thread I'm left to wonder - what exactly are members of the trade supposed to participate about? Does PS want them to help consumers find diamonds they love? To answer general questions for consumers about diamonds without specific reference to purchasing stones? To discuss and advance diamond education on a higher, non-consumer level?

This isn't clear to me. I've only been a member of the site for a little over a year (plus I found it not because of an interest in diamonds but via searching about being anxious for my boyfriend to propose!) so I don't know much about these great debates in the mythical past. I do think it is important to clarify the ultimate goal, though, to determine what steps could/should be taken to make that happen.

The ideal situation is that trade members/experts provide education and support to consumers and pro-sumers who then help other consumers.
The goal is not and never has been experts answering all the questions. That is actually counterproductive.

 

[sillyberry]

I'm purely a consumer (and not much of one, to boot), but after reading this thread I'm left to wonder - what exactly are members of the trade supposed to participate about? Does PS want them to help consumers find diamonds they love? To answer general questions for consumers about diamonds without specific reference to purchasing stones? To discuss and advance diamond education on a higher, non-consumer level?

This isn't clear to me. I've only been a member of the site for a little over a year (plus I found it not because of an interest in diamonds but via searching about being anxious for my boyfriend to propose!) so I don't know much about these great debates in the mythical past. I do think it is important to clarify the ultimate goal, though, to determine what steps could/should be taken to make that happen.

The ideal situation is that trade members/experts provide education and support to consumers and pro-sumers who then help other consumers.
The goal is not and never has been experts answering all the questions. That is actually counterproductive.

So, in your mind, PS is best when the trade members/experts discuss and debate, focusing on the scientific and technical aspects of diamonds, informing the consumers and pro-sumers who are then the "front line" when it comes to the random person coming on here asking for help in finding a great RB/cushion/EC? Therefore if those discussions aren't happening, the higher level education also isn't happening and the quality of the advice being given is diminished?

I have no dog in this fight (personally I am much more saddened by the loss of some awesome gals who used to post great advice over in the wedding planning threads!), I'm just trying to figure out the parameters of the initial complaint that experts aren't on the forums as much as they used to be. It seems this thread was introduced to solve a problem, but it was never made clear the reasons a lack of experts is a problem. I'm not doubting it is, I'm just trying to figure out why.

FWIW, I have been completely and utterly lost in the more technical threads (I slog through because my life is currently very boring and I need to kill time and the ladies over in BWW and LIW don't post nearly often enough to entertain me) - I honestly have zero idea what is being discussed generally, much less the points being argued about. BUT (and this is an important but) I like the idea that those discussions inform the people who do care and understand and who then can give advice to the guy looking to propose and just needs a ring that will sparkle like whoa.

 

[Karl_K]

So, in your mind, PS is best when the trade members/experts discuss and debate, focusing on the scientific and technical aspects of diamonds, informing the consumers and pro-sumers who are then the "front line" when it comes to the random person coming on here asking for help in finding a great RB/cushion/EC? Therefore if those discussions aren't happening, the higher level education also isn't happening and the quality of the advice being given is diminished?

yes, that and better explain existing technology and standards.
What is missing is more experts who can do that.
There are several of them I would love to cover but paying rent has to come first.
What is not needed is experts pushing agendas and sales, they aren't all that desirable and can be counterproductive.

Which is why I think a separate cut study sub-forum is needed.
RT moves to fast and someone who only has time to post once a week is never going to find the threads they can help on.
It will also help keep it out of consumers threads.

 

[Matata]

The ideal situation is that trade members/experts provide education and support to consumers and pro-sumers who then help other consumers.
The goal is not and never has been experts answering all the questions. That is actually counterproductive.

Yes and this is why John's questions about who corrects whom is a bit off point (Sorry, John, ya know I love ya). The synergy between tradesmbrs/experts, consumers is important to maintaining the vitality of PS. As a consumer, I don't care who corrects whom as long as I can develop a modicum of faith that what I'm reading is as accurate as can be at that point in time. The accuracy of the information provided is vital to maintaining the integrity of PS.

Without the tradesplp/experts PS would be populated by what? Folks who read through the tutorials and give diamond buying advice based on that and their own purchase experience?

 

[John P]

As a consumer, I don't care who corrects whom as long as I can develop a modicum of faith that what I'm reading is as accurate as can be at that point in time.

Actually, you answered my post pretty succinctly with that sentence (I heart you too)... I am not so concerned with who corrects whom. I simply wonder if there are consumer posters who, in a desire to seem more expert, would prefer trade members to stay away and let them "be" - even at the expense of information not being completely accurate or up to date.

I realize that question may be somewhat rhetorical among the crowd of people following this thread now...preaching to the choir and all. Are you soprano or alto?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl, you are posting as a trade member. I would ask that you temper what you write, as attacking a another trade member ( such as questioning one's commitment to consumers) is totally against the spirit one would look to foster, if the goal is to get more tradespeople to come in.
I'm no victim here.
As Neil pointed out, and Kenny then twisted, I have a good reason to be here besides my very real dedication to truthfulness in advertising when it comes to diamonds.
But it is that dedication, that allows me to stay, and take a position with little fear of being called out for false motives.
Furthermore, although it's ...well, "interesting" being a lone wolf protecting what are some very widely held positions in thuis industry, I'd be very happy if there were more people expressing more industry viewpoints.

I disagree that tradespeople answering day to day questions is a negative thing. If I was buying a diamond, and came to PS, that day would be the day I'd value the opinion of a seasoned professional- or more than one, preferably.

I learn a lot from other professionals.
I think a smart professional will learn just as much- if not more- from the consumers.
I believe both are critical to the success in a good flow of accurate, on the point information.

IMO more tradespeople posting can only help the consumer- and the site itself. There have been numerous posts about "the cheering squads"- I believe we should give readers credit for being able to spot that- just as a vendor who is self promoting.

On a few occasions, I have asked Stan Grossbard to comment on subjects here, and he has done that.
I can't speak for him, but it could be easy to see why he might not want to participate.

 

[Matata]

As a consumer, I don't care who corrects whom as long as I can develop a modicum of faith that what I'm reading is as accurate as can be at that point in time.

Actually, you answered my post pretty succinctly with that sentence (I heart you too)... I am not so concerned with who corrects whom. I simply wonder if there are consumer posters who, in a desire to seem more expert, would prefer trade members to stay away and let them "be" - even at the expense of information not being completely accurate or up to date.

I realize that question may be somewhat rhetorical among the crowd of people following this thread now...preaching to the choir and all. Are you soprano or alto?

I am completely tone deaf which is why I rarely post in RT. LOL.

 

[Karl_K]

I disagree that tradespeople answering day to day questions is a negative thing. If I was buying a diamond, and came to PS, that day would be the day I'd value the opinion of a seasoned professional- or more than one, preferably.

That forum model failed and failed in a big way the PS model won.
If you to post on a forum where vendors rule well then you know where to post.
Woops not enough consumers posting there to make it worth your while... eh?

 

[kenny]

I have very often been corrected and put in my place by both pros and cons, I mean commoners.
No problemo!

My self esteem comes not from PS but from the legions of my adoring fans banging down my door daily for a tress of my long wavy hair.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I disagree that tradespeople answering day to day questions is a negative thing. If I was buying a diamond, and came to PS, that day would be the day I'd value the opinion of a seasoned professional- or more than one, preferably.

That forum model failed and failed in a big way the PS model won.
If you to post on a forum where vendors rule well then you know where to post.
Woops not enough consumers posting there to make it worth your while... eh?

From what I see Karl, this PS is the model with a lot of vendors. I think more is a plus.